Nov
30

Yanks leaning towards including Hughes in Santana package

By

The title says it all. In the name of all that is holy, please say no. If you could see me, I’m actually down on my knees typing this. Please, I’m begging you. Don’t do it.

Categories : Hot Stove League
  • dan

    I’d rather Boston get Santana than give up Hughes. Fuck. I’m not happy right now.

  • tony from the bronx

    the yanks will not give up Hughes.If Cashman is charge,he will not pull the trigger.Why canBstn get Johan without Bucholz or Ellsbury but the Yanks must include Hughes.Hank said in a interview he would not pay more then another team would have to.Again santanna is a great pitcher no doubt,but I believe that Hughes will also be great.Let Bstn pull the trigger on the deal and then deal with Beckett and big Papi being under paid.Remeber what was said about the Gagne deal.

  • PsiFighter37

    This is ridiculous…IPK, possibly. But if it takes Hughes, there is no reason to pull the trigger on this deal.

    Don’t do it, Cashman.

  • Brian

    We’re getting fed this story for some reason or another. I’m sorry, but it’s not like Cashman is announcing to the world, “ok…so maybe you can have Hughes after more consideration here….”
    I don’t know what the reason is per se, but until it’s done, I can’t cry. If it happens, I indeed will.

  • Mitchell’s Eleven

    wait and see, guys….wait and see….

    the pendulum’s been going back and forth for days now. it could still swing back.

  • kingshaffy

    It just goes to show once again that Boston’s management is superior to ours. They draw a line in the sand with Buchholz and Ellsbury and they stick to it.

    When we draw a line in the sand and someone crosses it, we simply move the line in the sand further away. See Rodriguez, Alex. Just wait, by tomorrow, it will be Joba and Cano for Santana.

    Phil Hughes is the symbol of the Yankees getting back to what made the 90′s dynasty – young talent, home grown Yankees. Now, he’s just a chip to deal for yet another 20 million dollar a year “superstar”. Which, mind you, since we started to collect $20 million dollar men, we haven’t won anything.

    Also shocking is the complete and utter lack of creativity this front office is showing. Why not see what Wang’s value is on the trade market instead of offering up Hughes? What about looking into dealing Matsui? What about offering Wang and Matsui to SF for a guy like Matt Cain? Or what about offering the Kennedy proposal to Baltimore from Bedard.

    Additionally, moves like this not only will hurt on the field (and payroll) but will damage them in future negotiations because no one will take their “final” offers seriously. But hey, it will get headlines and appease the idiots who call into mike and the maddog.

    Sorry for the rant but Hughes is special and Yankees management is scaring me. He has the rare combination of talent and makeup to pitch here – and he just turned 21. You don’t trade that for anyone.

    • Zack

      You have no idea of the actual workings of the negotiations, just what you are made to hear. For all we know, they could have offered wang and minn. laughed at us.

      And as for Boston’s front office being better, whatever, I refer you to JD Drew et al. This is as much posturing as anything.

      And as for $20 million dollar men, what about one Derek Jeter?

      • kingshaffy

        Fine, IF we trade Hughes its another example of Boston being smarter than us as they accomplished their goal of inflating Santana’s price and making the Yanks include Hughes in the deal.

        JD Drew was an awful move, agreed. But they have won 2 rings in 4 years. And my point is that Boston’s farm system is 2 years ahead of ours and they seem to be more committed to developing and keeping their top prospects.

        Jeter was a Yankee before the 20 million dollar contract. AND hate to tell you, but he signed that deal before the 2001 season, and we haven’t won a ring since. Additionally the players I am talking about are Mussina (whose numbers are comparable to Santanas at the same age), Giambi, Arod, Unit, Kevin Brown, etc.

        • Zack

          Are you telling me the Moose signing wasn’t a success? I would call it an unqualified success.

          • kingshaffy

            I don’t call it a complete failure but it was not a success as we have not won a ring with him on the team. What about the other 5 you conveniently ignore?

            • Zack

              Just b./c the Yankees haven’t won a ring with Moose doesn’t mean the signing was a bad one. They came damn close twice, and over the span of the contract, there are few better pitchers…

              Kevin Brown and A-Rod were contracts the Yankees didn’t sign. And its not like Brown was WORSE than Weaver. And Giambi was a George move but over the span of his contract, he has put up OPS+ of: 172, 148, 90, 161, 148, and 108. Are you telling me that two close to league average years and 4 monster years are a failure?

              You can’t look at a contract and say, well, they didn’t win a WS during that span so it was a bad contract/failure. It doesn’t work that way. Under that logic, Don Mattingly was a failure.

              • kingshaffy

                Apples to oranges when comparing Mattingly to the other acquisitions. But the Mattingly era was defined by these types of moves. Buhner for Phelps, etc.

  • Zack

    I am very sceptically to a) any report by Buster Olney, and b) a report by Buster Olney about internal Yankee discussions at the highest level. Considering that the only people who matter are the brothers H and Cashman, what does it matter what anyone else might think?

    This smacks of trying to force Boston to include Ellsbury or Buccholz to me, just like yesterday’s smacked of forcing the Yanks to include Prince Phil…

    I’m refusing to get worked up about anything until there is something substantial…

    But the more I have been thinking, the less I want Hughes to be traded. Especially b/c I firmly believe if the Yanks show patience and resolve, they can get it done with IPK

    • kingshaffy

      hopefully you’re right and that’s the source of my frustration. lack of paitence = irrational decisions.

  • Steve

    I say call the bluff and hold firm on Kennedy and add a Marquez or Horne. By the way Gammons was just on Michael Kay’s show and he said that the front office is meeting to decide whether they are going to include Hughes, he said nothing about leaning towards giving him up. I think its too soon to fold on this negotiation, push it too the limit and then include Hughes and pull something else back. Keep Tabata and Jackson (abreu, mastui and damon arent here for the long haul).

  • Bo

    Who’s to say that Horne and Kennedy and Marquez won’t be better and are more valued by the Yanks than Hughes?

    Just because someone got ranked high on some prospect list doesn’t mean he is a supreme ace.

  • wrench

    doesn’t matsui have a full no trade clause? any trade won’t go down until after the winter meetings, a lot can happen between now and then. the twins can take their time with this right now. why should they rush it?

    • kingshaffy

      He’d waive it to go to SF, closer to Japan, lots of Japanese there.

  • Ron

    I have defended Cashman through the years, but if he includes Hughes in the deal, he should be fired. If that happens, Yankees fans should unite in calling for his head, because it will prove to the world, as much as I hate to admit it, that Theo is a better GM, because he is adamant against including Ellsbury or Bucholtz.

  • Bo

    If they are going to include Hughes why not see if Beane will throw in Street along with Haren while you’re at it.

  • Zack

    Guys, please, drawing a line in the sand does not make you a better gm and giving up Hughes to get Santana is not reason enough for being fired. Its not like it would be a bad trade, it would just be a fair one…

  • http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=56352514 Jamal G

    I really hope this is just some crap to scare BOS because I will be literally disappointed if the Yankees trade Phillip Hughes. I dont care what anyone wants to say, Chien-Ming won 38 games over two MLB seasons with an average ERA in the 3.60 range in that time span. That is a god damn ace. Before this disaster in the 2007 ALDS he was 1-1 with a 2.70 ERA in the post-season so he can pitch in October, he just had a bad one this year like Derek Jeter did.

  • Bo

    Santana Joba Kennedy

    is a better 3 than
    Hughes Joba Kennedy

    3 rookies in a rotation no matter how talented is rough.

    • kingshaffy

      Its not about whats best for 2008. Its whats best for the next 10 years. Short sighted decisions like this got us 7 years without a championship, which, with a 200 million dollar payroll is unacceptable.

  • Bo

    Jamal. Wins and losses isn’t what an ace is about. Wang showed in Games 1 and 4 that he is not an ace. You think Santana gets knocked out in Game 4 at home???

  • http://riveravenuewatch.blogspot.com Mikek NYY

    This is retarded. Hughes, Melky, and Jackson or Lowrie, Lester, Masterson, and Crisp.

    If this is real I`m PO’ed

  • Bo

    Can we stop being naive and believing that they really consider the Boston offer. Use the noggins out there. The one guy they’ve wanted all along has been Hughes. From either team. They know Boston isn’t giving them both Bucholz and Ellsbury.

  • Zack

    I would also say that if the Yanks include Hughes, the trade should JUST be Hughes and Melky. Anymore is getting rediculous…

    • Rob

      I agree completely.

  • Ivan

    Yankees are in a tough spot. And to be honest I wouldn’t trade Hughes for Santana.

    Lets say Pettite retire, and you trade Hughes and Kennedy for Santana, your rotation doesn’t really get better. Now your rotation Santana, Joba, Mussina, Igawa and who ever.

    The point is, if you are yankees, you can’t panic here.

    Plus, you got a bullpen to fix too. Because 4 of the 5 starters are not gonna give ya 200 innings must less 180 innings.

    • Rob

      I don’t think it’s Hughes AND Kennedy. I think it would be Hughes instead of Kennedy.

  • Rob

    I can understand Hughes + Melky. It’s not pretty, but this is Johan Santana, and if they can get him for one top pitching prospect and a decent, but replaceable, CF, then that’s what you do. Besides, this time last year the anger would have been ten times worse because we wouldn’t have seen Joba or IPK.

    It sucks, but it does make sense. We simply can’t know if Hughes turns into Clemens or Prior. But we already know what Santana is.

    I agree with Zack, it would be a fair trade. And if nothing else, it gives the Sox a very difficult call on whether to include Buchholz or Ellsbury. If they do, then you let them complete the deal while hurting their long-term depth significantly. Plus, I can live with Santana pitching half his games in Fenway. And if not, we have Santana pitching half his games in Yankee Stadium.

    The Yankees have a ton of pitching depth. Shouldn’t they start making SOME of it work for them? What better way than by acquiring the best pitcher of his generation and a lefty for Yankee Stadium at that?

  • NYFan50

    I’d much rather the Yankees give up Cano than Hughes, personally. But I wouldn’t worry about any of this until a deal is in place. Hank and Cashman have talked ad nauseam about the value of young pitching. Cashman has been extremely high on Hughes in everything I’ve ever seen. Even to get Santana I am not sure he’d really give him up. What do these writers really know?

    • Rob

      I’ve been thinking about that myself. I look at Cano, and I’m seeing Soriano. I know Robi is much better defensively, but for some reason I just think he may never take it to the next level. He did improve his plate discipline this year, but his power suffered. Who knows if it’s not walks OR power, but not both? And he does seem to disappear in big spots:

      2 outs, RISP – .242 .288 .425 (233 PA)
      Late/Close – .285 .323 .383 (254 PA)

      But I don’t know if the Twins would take Robi. He’s arb-eligible this year and will get a hefty raise. Then they only control him for three years.

      I have been wondering, with this Loretta talk, if Robi+Melky couldn’t get it done. And yes, I realize that’s slightly crazy.

      Still, imagine:

      1) Santana
      2) Wang
      3) Hughes
      4) Joba
      5) Kennedy

      The Yanks will get their offense. And they’ll have a chance to see which pitcher develops into a star.

  • Jeff

    Just a pipe dream but what if there was a package to bring Nathan over with Santana? Would you guys still be so distraught over losing Hughes then?
    I respect a lot of your opinions about making a fair competitive bid if we can keep Hughes out of the deal that would be great. However I still think Santana is too good to miss out on and if Cash brings back the best pitcher in baseball I’m not gonna shed any tears even it it may hurt a little to see Hughes go.
    Winning a world series relies on Pitching and if your going to argue that Hughes makes our rotation better than Santana would – you are out of your minds.

    • Rob

      I can’t see how the Yanks would also get Nathan without completely emptying their farm. Nathan might be the second best reliever in baseball.

  • http://nyyu.blogspot.com Mike

    Source please?

    If its Gammons or Olney, go feed it to the cat.

    • Giuseppe Franco

      I happen to like Buster Olney. In fact, he’s one of the best insiders in the business.

      His blog is a must read every morning.

      Gammons isn’t a Hall of Famer for nothing.

  • Bo

    Have we all not watched Cash over the past 3 yrs?

    No way he gives both Kennedy and Hughes.

  • http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=56352514 Jamal G

    No, wins & losses arent the only thing an ace is about. But it is a very big part of it. I could see if he was winning all these games a la Randy Johnson 2006 where he had 17 wins and a ERA over 5.00 but with an ERA of 3.63 one year and another sitting of 3.70 this season that both brought about 19 wins, its really not fair to disregard him as an ace type pitcher. To say he cant be dominant because he doesnt strikeout guys is just retarded because if you remember in May, on a nationally televised game on FOX he was just 5 outs away from a perfect game. 14 of his starts went 7.0 innings or more this season in which he started 30 games. Oh yeah, dont forget that one-hitter vs. the Red Sox at the end of August where the Yankees swept em in the Bronx. 11 of his 30 starts he allowed 1 ER or less and 14 where he allowed 2 ER or less. Im sorry but if your gonna give me a pitcher who won 19 games in back-to-back seasons and tell me in this season he will have allowed 1 ER or less in more than a third of his starts, 2 ER or less in almost 50% of his starts, and flirted with a perfect game into the 8th inning and allowed 1 hit vs. a powerful Red Sox lineup in 7.0 complete innings, and that he’s 27-years old and can hit 96mph on the gun, Im gonna say in what wrold is he not an ace?

    One last thing, he fell one win shy of the MLB leader after missing most of April and not picking up his first win until May 5th. Now please explain how you can argue against that and say he is not an ace?

  • Barry

    Do they want us all to cry on opening day?

  • Mac

    This is horrifying.

  • Julie

    If this is for real I think I actually will cry. What happened to Phil=the franchise?

  • Zack

    One more thing. If oyu read the Heyman article, who actually has ties to the Yanks, it not only indicates only that the yanks are debating it, but that so are the Sox with respect to their two “untouchables.” its par for the course. Step off the ledge people, even if they do trade Hughes, you have a team that is immediately a WS candidate…

    • Rob

      I agree again completely. Problem is, suppose the Sox go Lester, Ellsbury … which they easily could because of Crisp.

      You gotta let them have it, but ugh.

      Still, I can deal with facing Santana half the time Fenway. If there’s a park least well built for lefties, it’s that.

      • Rob

        Let me amend that to say I think Hughes + Melky > Lester + Ellsbury, but Lowrie gets the edge over Betemit and Masterson v. Horne is a wash. Those packages are very close, and the Twins could just flip a coin.

  • sean

    Jamal,

    It’s a very simple argument actually…

    At home, Wang is an ace. On the road, he’s not.

  • Mac
    • Rob

      “There is still the possibility the Twins will try to push the Yankees to include Kennedy as well as Hughes, but Yankee sources insist they won’t go that far.”

      “Based on their talks with Twins GM Bill Smith, the Yankees knew they couldn’t make a deal for Santana without including Hughes, their 21-year-old righthander widely regarded as a potential staff ace.”

      Also relevant:
      “And sources Friday said the Twins won’t consider a deal with the Sox unless they include two of their big three prospects, pitchers Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz, and center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury.”

      “Likewise, the Twins told the Dodgers they had to have two of their top three young players – James Loney, Clayton Kershaw and Jonathan Broxton.”

      It sucks, but if the Yanks get away with only Hughes and Melky, that’s a very fair deal.

      • http://yankeesetc.blogspot.com/ Travis G.

        i frankly dont care what Minnesota demands. the Yanks should only offer as much as they feel is right. if Minny doesnt think Kennedy, Melky and a prospect is fair, fine, let them keep him until he hits FA.

  • Rob

    One more note on the above Cano-Soriano comp:

    Soriano
    2 out, RISP: .231 .316 .429 (522 PA)
    Late/Close: .277 .335 .439 (685 PA)

    Cano
    2 outs, RISP: .242 .288 .425 (233 PA)
    Late/Close – .285 .323 .383 (254 PA)

  • trevor

    hank steinbrenner is fucking up cashman’s whole plan with this win now shit. He needs to shut the fuck up and let cash go to work. He is smarter than everyone in the organization. If he is in charge we will contend in 08 without giving up hughes.

  • LiveFromNewYork

    I do not want to give up Hughes but if Kennedy can’t get it done, we might need to. ALL sources indicate that Pettitte is retiring. We need a lefty.

    I don’t like it but we might need to do it.

  • Zack

    I’ve never seen a fanbase so dispirited to acquire the best pitcher in the game and get a legit shot at the WS.

    This does, however, reek of Hank being George, don’t it?

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      That’s exactly what I just said in this post. We may be getting the top pitcher in the game. It’s not all bad.

    • http://yankeesetc.blogspot.com/ Travis G.

      yes it does. Hank, Brian, dont succumb to the media pressure. no Hughes.

    • Rob

      I agree on the spirit in acquiring Santana.

      But I don’t agree on George:Hank. One, they have the depth. Two, they’re giving up *one* great pitching prospect.

      Like I said above, this would have been very different last winter. Now Hughes is expendable, even as it’s difficult to do so.

  • trevor

    yea the top pitcher in the game who has been showing signs of decline, who gave up 33 HR in 07, and will command 25 mil per. That has disaster all over it.

  • John C.

    I didn’t want believe all the press about Cash losing some of his power … but it seems that way. Hank’s been here for what? 5 minutes? Why is he in on this? NY Daily new says Yankees are going for it … with Hughes in the deal.

    • http://yankeesetc.blogspot.com/ Travis G.

      really. what happened to Brian’s new-found power within the organization? is he actually allowing this, or is Hank forcing it? either way it sucks, but i just want to know who the culprit is.

  • http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=56352514 Jamal G

    Why do we need a lefty? Out of the last 5 WS winning teams the biggest LHP pitchers were Dontrelle Willis (03) and Mark Buehrle (05). If Iam not mistaken the 02 Angels staff did not have a dominant southpaw either so you would have to go back to 2001 where a team had a real dominating southpaw starter that led them to a Fall Classic victory.

    I hope the Twins are too greedy and ask for too much or something to not let this deal go through, or the Yanks pull a Marlin and change up on the deal at the last second because his just cant happen. Phil hughes can not be traded, we all love Johan Santana but god damn, Phil hughes is just one of those once in a lifetime guys who is not anywhere near his prime and he’s already throwing no-hitters into the 7th inning and making emergency playoff appearances and getting a win in aid appearance. I hope something happens that does not allow this deal to go through, if we cant get Santana w/o Hughes then sobeit. Let him go to the Sawkz, or let us take our chances in the 2008 FA market but dont trade Hughes, for the love of GOD just dont.

    *As to the Wang thing, no argument here.

  • Rob

    It’s a risk, but this is a sensible risk. Santana will pitch much better in Yankee Stadium than in the Metrodome. And I’d much rather they give up this package for Santana than that for Haren or Bedard. The money is irrelevant (except to Yankee haters).

    Still, as I thought about it, I’d rather give up Cano than Hughes.

  • http://yankeesetc.blogspot.com/ Travis G.

    Peavy, Santana and Sabathia are all entering their contract years. i say we wait it out – i think at least one of them will hit the market.

    • Rob

      But Santana is the best of that bunch.

  • JR_CLT

    Tired of this lefty righty crap. Does it help? Sure, but good/great pitchers get btoh lefties and righties out. The whole we need a lefty is overrated.

    • Rob

      It’s not that we need a lefty, but it will sure help, esp. in Yankee Stadium.

  • http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=56352514 Jamal G

    BTW, the reason some here (including myself) are so dispirited is because we believe Hughes is one of those once in a decade type pitchers. We believe this guy along with Joba will be what Curt Schilling/Randy Johnson was in 2001 for the majority of a decade once they both reach their prime. We believe this guy is Phil-The-Franchise and when you have a guy like that you do not want him to be dealt for a soon to be 29 year old pitcher who gave up 30+ HRs this season and has seen his stats decline consistently for nearly half a decade. Granted Santana is currently the best pitcher in the game even with the recent declines but that evidence just shows that it wont last for more than 3 years, while we see become Mike Mussina in the next 4 years and Phil Hughes becoming the next great thing in that same time span.

  • kunaldo

    barry, i would imagine they would be tears of joy, b/c santana will be pitching for us that day, and you can watch up close his utter domination

    cashman has built up our farm not only to provide homegrown(cheap) talent, but to use as trading chips…he, unlike a lot of the commenters i’m seeing, is not naive and understands that not every prospect pans out, and you have to take that chance when you can get a proven commodity

    if you have espn insider, i’d suggest looking at jayson starks take on johan’s dominance(espn, of course)

    you have to give to get, and unless we get lucky, we’re going to give up something we want to get our man santana

    and wang is a very good pitcher, but he is not an ace…he can be good enough to anchor a staff through the reg season, but in the small sample size that is the postseason, his groundball-out style leaves way too much to chance as opposed to santana, who strikes out over 9 per 9 innings, and allows only 9 baserunners per 9…trust me, that is dominance, and a true ace

  • Rob

    The chances of Joba/Hughes becoming Unit/Schilling are exceedingly small (and even then they only won one ring together). Maybe the only time it’s happened with homegrown talent in the history of the game is Koufax/Drysdale (3 rings) and Smoltz/Glavine (one ring).

    It just doesn’t happen.

    For all the knocks on Santana, people are forgetting that Hughes got hurt twice last year very easily and doing nothing more than pitching. True, it wasn’t his arm, but there’s nothing that says he’ll be a 200 inning workhorse for the next six years. By contrast, Santana has never been hurt.

  • Steve

    I don’t get it. We’re talking about the BEST pitcher in baseball, who is only 29 next season. The point of having a lot of PROSPECTS is that we can use some to get proven entities, some will wash out, and we can keep the best. Having Joba, Phil, and IPK (along with Brackman, Horne, Humberto, Betances, et al) is that we have options. I love Phil, I do, but his absolute best case is MAYBE what we KNOW Johan to be. He’s a lefty, he fits the stadium, and without an offense even close to the Yanks the past 4-5 years he has been the best pitcher in the league (2 Cys). If the argument is money…are we really that concerned if the payroll is $190 mil or $200 mil? Hank isn’t, George isn’t, Cash isn’t, why are we? Next year when/if Hughes goes 13-5 with a 3.7 ERA and Johan goes 23-10 with a 3.5 (I agree pulling that out of my ass), are we really going to be complaining? (Esp with Joba throwing darts, IPK pitching like a pro, and Brackman/Humberto back from surgery?) If we can get Johan for nothing then I’m all for it, but to get something like Johan we have to give up value. Luckily we have lots of value to use (well unless we’re projecting a 10 man rotation in 2010).