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	<title>Comments on: Missing Joba</title>
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	<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/04/missing-joba-2586/</link>
	<description>A New York Yankees Blog</description>
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		<title>By: jsbrendog</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/04/missing-joba-2586/#comment-68305</link>
		<dc:creator>jsbrendog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:16:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=2586#comment-68305</guid>
		<description>thats put very well. i agree indeed</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thats put very well. i agree indeed</p>
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		<title>By: Haggs</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/04/missing-joba-2586/#comment-68295</link>
		<dc:creator>Haggs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=2586#comment-68295</guid>
		<description>Make him a starter in spring training of 2009, and have him finish the &#039;09 season in the bullpen once he reaches his innings cap.

This gives the Yankees the best chance to win in both &#039;08 and &#039;09, and by 2010 he&#039;s a full fledged starter.  

To try to break three rookies into the rotation during the same season, and to significantly weaken your bullpen in the process, makes no sense to me.  Its taking an unnecessary step backward to go forward.  

By &#039;09, Hawkins and Farnsworth won&#039;t be clogging up the pen, creating spots for youngsters not quite ready this year to fill the void created by Joba&#039;s departure.  

It&#039;s obvious Joba deserves a shot in the rotation, but rushing him into it mid-season is detrimental to Joba and to the team. There would be too much pressure to hurry him back to the Bronx.  If you don&#039;t believe they&#039;d rush him look how quickly the Joba rules went out the window.  Spring training is the best time to do this.   The Yankees have planned this poorly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Make him a starter in spring training of 2009, and have him finish the &#8217;09 season in the bullpen once he reaches his innings cap.</p>
<p>This gives the Yankees the best chance to win in both &#8217;08 and &#8217;09, and by 2010 he&#8217;s a full fledged starter.  </p>
<p>To try to break three rookies into the rotation during the same season, and to significantly weaken your bullpen in the process, makes no sense to me.  Its taking an unnecessary step backward to go forward.  </p>
<p>By &#8217;09, Hawkins and Farnsworth won&#8217;t be clogging up the pen, creating spots for youngsters not quite ready this year to fill the void created by Joba&#8217;s departure.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s obvious Joba deserves a shot in the rotation, but rushing him into it mid-season is detrimental to Joba and to the team. There would be too much pressure to hurry him back to the Bronx.  If you don&#8217;t believe they&#8217;d rush him look how quickly the Joba rules went out the window.  Spring training is the best time to do this.   The Yankees have planned this poorly.</p>
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		<title>By: Why Joba Needs to Start &#171; Glienke&#8217;s Thoughts</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/04/missing-joba-2586/#comment-68267</link>
		<dc:creator>Why Joba Needs to Start &#171; Glienke&#8217;s Thoughts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 19:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=2586#comment-68267</guid>
		<description>[...] Tags: bullpen, Joba Chamberlain, starter      River Ave. Blues makes a great point as to why Joba needs to be in the 5-man rotation and not the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Tags: bullpen, Joba Chamberlain, starter      River Ave. Blues makes a great point as to why Joba needs to be in the 5-man rotation and not the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Glen L</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/04/missing-joba-2586/#comment-68240</link>
		<dc:creator>Glen L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=2586#comment-68240</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry .. i fail to believe anything rattles Manny ... i&#039;m not sure he lives enough outside of any given moment to appreciate anything other than how he&#039;s gonna crush the next pitch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry .. i fail to believe anything rattles Manny &#8230; i&#8217;m not sure he lives enough outside of any given moment to appreciate anything other than how he&#8217;s gonna crush the next pitch</p>
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		<title>By: Chip</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/04/missing-joba-2586/#comment-68228</link>
		<dc:creator>Chip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=2586#comment-68228</guid>
		<description>Chris, are you trying to blow your closers arm off?  130 IP out of the bullpen is much worse than 200 IP as a starter.  So you want to bring Mo into a close game in the seventh?  What happens the next day when the Sox are rallying in the ninth and Mo is already spent from the long outing the day before?  I&#039;m sorry but you&#039;re just wrong.

Also, that Smoltz guy was pretty darn good in the pen, what is he doing now?  O yeah, they moved him back to the starting rotation.  Man, those Braves are sure dumb.  I mean seriously, he&#039;s only averaging about 15 wins and sportin a low 3&#039;s ERA the past three years.  That obviously didn&#039;t pay off for them did it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, are you trying to blow your closers arm off?  130 IP out of the bullpen is much worse than 200 IP as a starter.  So you want to bring Mo into a close game in the seventh?  What happens the next day when the Sox are rallying in the ninth and Mo is already spent from the long outing the day before?  I&#8217;m sorry but you&#8217;re just wrong.</p>
<p>Also, that Smoltz guy was pretty darn good in the pen, what is he doing now?  O yeah, they moved him back to the starting rotation.  Man, those Braves are sure dumb.  I mean seriously, he&#8217;s only averaging about 15 wins and sportin a low 3&#8242;s ERA the past three years.  That obviously didn&#8217;t pay off for them did it?</p>
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		<title>By: Chip</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/04/missing-joba-2586/#comment-68223</link>
		<dc:creator>Chip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:08:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=2586#comment-68223</guid>
		<description>If Mo would have dominated the minors the way Joba did (yes he had good minor league numbers but not quite as good as Joba) and the Yankees had a huge hole in the rotation in 1996, there would have been no Mo in the bullpen.  Mo also did start in the majors for the latter part of 1995 and didn&#039;t do well, yes he was 5-3 but had an ERA of 5.5 with a WHIP of 1.5 and a small GB/FB ratio.  They put him in the bullpen and he was dominant.

The Yankees will put him in the rotation and he won&#039;t see the bullpen again unless he gets hurt, is ineffective or possibly in the playoffs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Mo would have dominated the minors the way Joba did (yes he had good minor league numbers but not quite as good as Joba) and the Yankees had a huge hole in the rotation in 1996, there would have been no Mo in the bullpen.  Mo also did start in the majors for the latter part of 1995 and didn&#8217;t do well, yes he was 5-3 but had an ERA of 5.5 with a WHIP of 1.5 and a small GB/FB ratio.  They put him in the bullpen and he was dominant.</p>
<p>The Yankees will put him in the rotation and he won&#8217;t see the bullpen again unless he gets hurt, is ineffective or possibly in the playoffs.</p>
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		<title>By: Micky#7</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/04/missing-joba-2586/#comment-68219</link>
		<dc:creator>Micky#7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=2586#comment-68219</guid>
		<description>gxpanos...
I remember (as do you) Mo and Andy coming up as starters.
Mo would start getting ripped the 2/3 time around...he had the cutter and nothing more. Nobody could hit his cutter, but he would go from about 95 down to 90 as he tiered out...therefore, he&#039;s in the pen. I&#039;ve been waiting a long time to post that about Mo. Mo rocks, in the BP. 27/08.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gxpanos&#8230;<br />
I remember (as do you) Mo and Andy coming up as starters.<br />
Mo would start getting ripped the 2/3 time around&#8230;he had the cutter and nothing more. Nobody could hit his cutter, but he would go from about 95 down to 90 as he tiered out&#8230;therefore, he&#8217;s in the pen. I&#8217;ve been waiting a long time to post that about Mo. Mo rocks, in the BP. 27/08.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Micky#7</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/04/missing-joba-2586/#comment-68204</link>
		<dc:creator>Micky#7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=2586#comment-68204</guid>
		<description>Great reply...Those guys are (have been) on Chass&#039; radar from last year.
They need to get up to speed yet, but they are coming. We also have; Patterson, Britton, Alan Horne, J.B. Cox and Marquez. Alan is a starter...with injury problems, put him in BP. J.B. Cox coming off TJ. Alan/J.B., Sanchez, may make it later this year, if needed. 27/08.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great reply&#8230;Those guys are (have been) on Chass&#8217; radar from last year.<br />
They need to get up to speed yet, but they are coming. We also have; Patterson, Britton, Alan Horne, J.B. Cox and Marquez. Alan is a starter&#8230;with injury problems, put him in BP. J.B. Cox coming off TJ. Alan/J.B., Sanchez, may make it later this year, if needed. 27/08.</p>
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		<title>By: LiveFromNewYork</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/04/missing-joba-2586/#comment-68200</link>
		<dc:creator>LiveFromNewYork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=2586#comment-68200</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I would not boo Farnsworth if he kept throwing at Manny.  Even if that was all he ever did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I would not boo Farnsworth if he kept throwing at Manny.  Even if that was all he ever did.</p>
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		<title>By: gxpanos</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/04/missing-joba-2586/#comment-68197</link>
		<dc:creator>gxpanos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:29:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=2586#comment-68197</guid>
		<description>I mean, let&#039;s go people. Joba&#039;s a starter until he proves he&#039;s not good at it. The only way for that to happen is for him to start some games. Which he hasnt done, and which (I sincerely hope) he&#039;ll get to do after the as break.

First, let me say, somewhat sacrilegiously I suppose, that Joba&#039;s better than Mo, or at least 22 (23?) year old Joba is better than was 22 year old Mo. That NY Times article said that Mo, at 26, had a &quot;fierce slider.&quot; I mean, he didnt have a fierce slider. If he had one, he&#039;d be throwing it in relief. He throws all kind of fastballs, and that&#039;s it. I remember watching his horrible few starts in &#039;95. He was &quot;developing&quot; a change, at 26. Joba&#039;s apparently got an OK change already, at 22. Mo is the perfect closer, just as Smoltz was or Beckett/Verlander would be the imperfect (though outstanding) closer. Mo doesnt have the tools to be a good starter! But he does to be a closer! We&#039;re reeaaally lucky to to have Mo; he&#039;s dominant as a closer, and made the decision to make him one easy, because he couldnt have been a starter.

The fact remains that, gun to my head, I&#039;d release Mo before Wang. A starter pitches 200+ innings; HE HAS MORE IMPACT. This debate is ridiculous! Asinine, I say! Unbelievable, even. 

Let&#039;s think about it this way. Let&#039;s take as gospel, for the sake of argument, that Joba is more valuable as a reliever than a starter: that Joba, as presently deployed, is more valuable than an ACE, which is what M and the MD think, as they would have the Yankees never even TRY him in the rotation. Then it stands to reason that, since a great reliever is more important than a great starter, a good reliever is more important than a good starter, and an average reliever is more important than an average starter, and so on down the line.

Well, fine. For the sake of argument, we&#039;ve accepted this. Why, then, have starters to begin with? Let&#039;s carry the 12 pitchers who are best in 1-2 inning spurts, and play every game like the other day in KC before IPK came in. Pitch about 6 pitchers a game, get about 120 innings from every pitcher on the staff. It would be a headache for Girardi, but it&#039;s the logical destination of Mike Francesa&#039;s and the rest of the Bullpenners&#039; ideas.

Are there problems with this model? I believe so, and I believe Mike Francesa would even think so. Perhaps it&#039;s faulty, trying to balance on a totally erroneous premise about value in pitching.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mean, let&#8217;s go people. Joba&#8217;s a starter until he proves he&#8217;s not good at it. The only way for that to happen is for him to start some games. Which he hasnt done, and which (I sincerely hope) he&#8217;ll get to do after the as break.</p>
<p>First, let me say, somewhat sacrilegiously I suppose, that Joba&#8217;s better than Mo, or at least 22 (23?) year old Joba is better than was 22 year old Mo. That NY Times article said that Mo, at 26, had a &#8220;fierce slider.&#8221; I mean, he didnt have a fierce slider. If he had one, he&#8217;d be throwing it in relief. He throws all kind of fastballs, and that&#8217;s it. I remember watching his horrible few starts in &#8217;95. He was &#8220;developing&#8221; a change, at 26. Joba&#8217;s apparently got an OK change already, at 22. Mo is the perfect closer, just as Smoltz was or Beckett/Verlander would be the imperfect (though outstanding) closer. Mo doesnt have the tools to be a good starter! But he does to be a closer! We&#8217;re reeaaally lucky to to have Mo; he&#8217;s dominant as a closer, and made the decision to make him one easy, because he couldnt have been a starter.</p>
<p>The fact remains that, gun to my head, I&#8217;d release Mo before Wang. A starter pitches 200+ innings; HE HAS MORE IMPACT. This debate is ridiculous! Asinine, I say! Unbelievable, even. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s think about it this way. Let&#8217;s take as gospel, for the sake of argument, that Joba is more valuable as a reliever than a starter: that Joba, as presently deployed, is more valuable than an ACE, which is what M and the MD think, as they would have the Yankees never even TRY him in the rotation. Then it stands to reason that, since a great reliever is more important than a great starter, a good reliever is more important than a good starter, and an average reliever is more important than an average starter, and so on down the line.</p>
<p>Well, fine. For the sake of argument, we&#8217;ve accepted this. Why, then, have starters to begin with? Let&#8217;s carry the 12 pitchers who are best in 1-2 inning spurts, and play every game like the other day in KC before IPK came in. Pitch about 6 pitchers a game, get about 120 innings from every pitcher on the staff. It would be a headache for Girardi, but it&#8217;s the logical destination of Mike Francesa&#8217;s and the rest of the Bullpenners&#8217; ideas.</p>
<p>Are there problems with this model? I believe so, and I believe Mike Francesa would even think so. Perhaps it&#8217;s faulty, trying to balance on a totally erroneous premise about value in pitching.</p>
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