Ben C. made a claim that there’s a valid argument to keep Joba in the pen. Not for a short term scenario over the last two months of a pennant run on a team that already had 5 viable, healthy (if not necessarily good) starters in Wang, Pettitte, Mussina, Clemens, and Hughes (plus Kennedy, Rasner, and DeSalvo) and not as part of a plan to get Joba a taste of the big leagues knowing full and well that the long term plan is to keep him on track to be a starting pitcher… No, Ben C. said that there’s a valid argument that the team could be better with Joba in the 8th inning PERMANENTLY, based on the success of the team during the title years (although he didn’t mention that the Yankees had outstanding starting pitching during those title years as well) and based on the influence that Mo and Jon Papelbon have had on their teams. Again, Ben C’s argument, even though he himself claimed to disagree with it, is that there may be good reason to keep Joba in the bullpen permanently.

I said that that argument is retarded, and it is. 99% of the baseball world agrees with me; only you and well known idiots like Mike and the Mad Dog disagree. Rather than rehash the rather well-settled point that the argument is retarded (which I and others here have successfully stated ad nauseam), I created an analogous situation and illustrated how retarded it would be. You claimed I was retarded for making that analogy. I asked you to explain why my analogy was retarded. You responded by not discussing my analogy, but rather by conflating the original argument to say something different than what Ben C. was stating and by making points that have nothing to do with what either he or I said (like that if Wang and Hughes were healthy, blah blah.)

And then you close your “argument” with this nugget: “Now take an everyday player like your example, Jeter, and convert him to a pinch hitter. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that the Yankees would be much less successful in both the short and long term.” That was exactly my point, and thank you for restating it. Let me put it in your form so you can see how you basically agree with what I was saying:

“Take a starting pitcher, like Chien Ming Wang, and convert him to an 8th inning specialist. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that the Yankees would be much less successful in both the short term and the long term.”

Take Josh Beckett and turn him into Jon Papelbon’s setup guy.
Take Johan Santana and turn him into BIlly Wagner’s setup guy.
Take Albert Pujols and turn him into a pinch hitter.
Take Any Good Player X and turn him into a specialist that sees the field less.

All those teams would also be much less successful in both the short term and the long term if they made those utterly stupid moves, and we would be much less successful in both the short and the long term if we took Joba and either kept him in the pen or put him back in the pen. Joba was a starting pitching prospect, and now he’s a pretty damn successful starting pitching prospect. The fact that he was dominant in an 8th inning setup role means jack squat ultimately, because bullpen guys no matter how dominant they may be, are always always always less important than dominant starting pitchers, just like pinch hitters, no matter how dominant they may be, are always always always less important than dominant everyday players. If either of these two simple and yet incontrovertible facts, or the fairly simple and straightforward analogy I made about these facts seem counterintuitive to you, then you need better intuition.

kindof funny that you are angry about this since it’s also the only reason we have Joba Chamberlain.

Wang, Pettitte. Moose and healthy Hughes would be stronger than most rotations, and Joba to Mo would be the strongest back end of the bullpen.

I love Joba the starter, but the bullpen (especially the way Girardi uses it) without him is not championship caliber, and I don’t think it can be fixed until next spring, when roster spots will be available and a few more kids will be ready.

Hope I’m wrong, but the Farns and Edwar isn’t doing it for me, and I just don’t see Girardi giving the right people the opportunity to plug the leak Joba’s departure created.

I fixed that for you.

I can’t believe you would still say that even after watching Joba’s transition into the rotation. Starting pitching wins championships. Eighth inning guys do not win championships. This isn’t a debate; it’s a fact.

A rotation with Joba makes the Yankees that much better.

Last August, Joba was used as a setup man, and for two months the Yanks were the best team in baseball. If Joba were available to start, the Yanks might have been even better, they might have been worse – we’ll never know.

But when Joba was used as a setup man, the Yankees played their best baseball of the season by far. The Yankees’ long term future is best served using Joba as a starter. But as they showed last year, they could still win tons of games using him to setup Mo.

I think it could be argued that if Wang and Hughes were both healthy, the Yankees would have their best chance to win the WS this year with Joba in the pen full time this season. Short sighted thinking yes, but also more W’s in ’08.

Now take an everyday player like your example, Jeter, and convert him to a pinch hitter. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that the Yankees would be much less successful in both the short and long term.

I hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any further questions.

You claimed my analogy was retarded. Demonstrate how.

I could go on for a while here, but in an effort to make other people feel like their opinions are retarded you are making yourself look silly.

There is no comparison to be made, regardless of how hyperbolic it was intended to be, between a pitcher going from starter to setup man and an everyday player – 9 innings, every game, offense and defense – becoming a pinch hitter.

You have the higher ground on logic – Joba should indeed be a starter – but when you’re defense of this position is senseless you might want to think twice about calling other people’s opnions retarded.

Just a suggestion.

should Arod be used as the ultimate pinch-hitter because you can control exactly when he gets those ABs (high leverage situations)? would you take your best hitter and reduce his ABs by two-thirds? of course not. so why do it with (potentially) your best pitcher?

Ben C, who would your 5-man rotation be right now if Joba’s relieving?

Thinking that it’s a valid argument to strategically use Joba as a bullpen weapon because he can impact more games by being used more frequently in “high-leverage situations” is highly analogous to thinking that it would be a valid argument were someone to claim that we should strategically use Jeter (or any other Yankee position player) as a pinch-hitting weapon because he can impact more games by being used more frequently in high leverage situations.

It’s hyperbolic (and intentionally so), but not retarded. The hyperbole is used to draw attention to how retarded the initial premise is.

And I’m not claiming I don’t want to enter into a debate about it, i’m just tired of debating something so patently ridiculous.