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River Ave BluesAcross the nation on the West Coast, the Dodgers are in second place, just one game behind the D-Backs. But by many accounts, their season has not been a success. They’re three games under .500, and as Ian O’Connor writes, Joe Torre doesn’t look so hot anymore. Sure, Frank McCourt killed a deal for CC Sabathia. Sure, Ned Colletti will probably take the blame. Los Angeles, however, expected more from Joe. I was surprised when Torre took this LA job. It was a no-win situation for him because, while the pressure wasn’t as high as it was in New York, anything short of a World Series would be both a disappointment and an admission that perhaps Torre isn’t as great an on-field manager as many think he was while in the Bronx.
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I think with the success of the bullpen this year, especially that of Veras, Ramirez, and Karl Finesworth, shows how badly Torre mishandled the bullpen in recent years. Maybe Edwar and Jose Veras just matured this year, but the fact that the Yankees have tons of relief innings pitched bt nobody in the top-10 of reliever innings pitched is a testament to Joe Giradi.
I agree, Girardi has consistently worked pitchers in to the mix, getting them consistent apearances without blowing out their arms. I ahve also always been a fan of the more outspoken manager, and loved having Bowa on the team last year. In that respect, I love that Girardi is a bulldog and speaks his mind.
Why aren’t people talking about Eiland as being the key to the bullpen success? I agree that Girardi is far better with the bullpen than Torre, but you also have to give some credit to Eiland for getting the guys to mature and be ready to pitch.
Credit Eiland, but the biggest difference, IMO, is that Girardi shows faith in his relievers, ALL OF THEM, and continues to trust in their stuff and give them innings and opportunities to succeed or fail… and then he builds them up and gives them more shots until they’ve truly proven they can’t do it. Even when some of us here (like me) said he was Krazy to do so (like with Kyle), he kept faith and it’s paid off.
It’s worked for most (Veras, Edwar, The Human Sandwich Pick, Robertson, Giese, etc.) but not for all (LaTroy, Ohlendorf), but at least he had the foresight to stick with the bigger plan and not keep running out a Quantrill or a Sturtze while letting other guys rot, and the benefit is, for the first time since the title years, we will be heading into the postseason with more than two reliable options in relief.
I mean I’m sure Edwar and Veras are better than they are a year ago, partly because of a year of experience, and partly because they got regular innings, but that alone doesn’t explain why Torre would over use guys, warm up Tom Gordon in the 7th up by 5, sure, why not. Go to Proctor down 4 in the 8th when he’s thrown the past 2 days, of course!
Torre is bad at managing a bullpen, but so are many older managers (see Lou Pinella) part of it is lack of depth, part of it is lack of understanding
I would have to agree with O’Connor — there is simply no valid excuse for the Dodgers not winning the NL West. Anything less would be an indictment of Torre’s managerial skills.
Obviously they’ve had some underperformace that is partly the leaderships fault, Andruw Jones shouldn’t be paid that money, and Jeff Kent is well past it.
In reality Loney, Kemp, Either, Martin, and Kent’s shell should be able to get it done, and even with Penny out, they still have Billingsley, Kuroda, D-Lowe, and Kershaw, Penny coming back, and a decent bullpen (even with Saito)… they should be .500, which would put them in 1st place
the Post has the Dodgers interested in reuniting Cano with Torre and Bowa in LA, and willing to deal Lowe and Kemp as a potential package back to NY.
i think at this point, the Dodgers can still pull it off, but i feel as though its more on the players than Torre and the staff.
I would NEVER do that deal
I’d be willing to ship Cano out to LA, but Kershaw’s name would have to be included in the deal. If it had to be something like Cano & Kennedy for Kemp and Kershaw, I’d still do it. Pairing up Kershaw and Joba in the rotation would just be too tempting too pass up.
Cano only for kemp/Kershaw, we shouldn’t have to over pay for every trade we make. Adding IPK is just to much, Kershaw is not that good…era is over 4.00, in the NL, what would it be in AL East? 27/08??
Jesus, people need to remember PERSPECTIVE. Clayton Kershaw is 20 YEARS OLD pitching in the major leagues. Give him some time. A Joba like level of early success, particularly for a pitcher, is the exception and far, far from the norm.
He’s a big lefty with a power fastball and a sick curve. He’s filthy good.
“Kershaw is not that good…era is over 4.00″
I really want to believe you are not basing your evaluation of Clayton Kershaw based on 41.2-IP as a 20-year-old.
The same crowd that are already evaluating Hughes as a #3 and Kennedy as a bust…idiots
Just pointing out, that one can’t trade a Cano for someone that we already have (many good arms in A, AA, AAA). We all know the names of the up and comers we already have. Kershaw would be nice, but not for Cano+. Cano will be the 2nd basemen for 10/12 years, unless injury cuts him down, he is a 4 tool player…quick, but no speed. Projecting Kershaw as a # 1-2 starter (as we have Phil) or a Stud is good, but it is a projection…not fact, yet. 27/08??
I don’t want to trade Cano either, but… Kershaw is a fantastic young pitcher.
The Dodgers would never do that deal anyway, so it’s pointless… they’re not THAT stupid.
That would certainly be more intriguing, Kershaw will be a stud. But I’m pretty sure the Yanks are going to keep Cano.
you would HAVE to trade Cano and Kennedy for Kershaw, but LA would never do it. throw in Ajax and MAYBE they consider it.
Ha. Ha. Haha. Thanks for giving me my laugh this morning. While I think Matt Kemp is a very good player, Cano is worth much more given the position he plays. Corner outfielders grow on trees, second basemen don’t.
I’m also not that high on Derek Lowe. In four starts against the AL this year, he got hammered except for a 1-0 loss to the Angels. He eats innings yes, but if he’s giving up 4+ runs a game to AL opponents what’s the point? He hasn’t pitched in the AL since 2004, where he was awful. His move to the NL bolstered his stats but they’ve been trending towards the worse with each passing season.
In short, no thanks.
I wouldn’t do that deal. If the Dodgers soured on Kemp like that then something is up. Kemp has a big upside but has yet to put it together (hard to do that when you don’t work counts and walk)
I wouldn’t do that deal, Plus, I still think Cano upside with the bat is higher than Kemp.
“Kemp has a big upside but has yet to put it together (hard to do that when you don’t work counts and walk)
I wouldn’t do that deal, Plus, I still think Cano upside with the bat is higher than Kemp.”
Odd that your statement on walks and working counts is more true for Cano than for Kemp - roughly twice as many walks in the same number of at bats this season
I personally would do the deal. Lowe would help this year(huge upgrade over Ponson/Rasner), and would net 2 draft picks after the year. With the yankees willingness to go over slot, thats 2 premium prospects. Plus Kemp hits leftys - another big plus for this season.
But Cano is a All-Star player who has put up some very good #’s. Kemp hasn’t done that period.
Have you looked at the numbers? Smaller sample size, but Kemp is also 2 years younger. Career Statistics:
Kemp: .302/.344/.480 (OPS .824)
Cano: .305/.338/.471 (OPS .809)
Plus, Kemp is a threat on the basepaths. His real downside is his high K rate, but he has far superior plate discipline than Cano.
I love Cano, but I still believe that the Dodgers would be more reluctant to do this deal than the Yankees.
You’d be wrong. The Dodgers would do Kemp for Cano straight up in a heartbeat.
Offensively, they’re virtually the same, but Cano is a much better defender at a more important defensive position.
Cano is untouchable. Even in the midst of his horrid three month stretch to begin this season, this should never have been a question.
I advocated for trading for Santana, CC, and lots of other deals. In none of them would I ever include a career .305/.338/.471 plus-fielding middle infielder who has 206 career XBH and doesn’t turn 26 until October.
Why do people wanna trade Cano? Get off the guy’s back. Appreciate the guy.
I don’t think I would go that far, but you are mostly right. I wouldn’t trade Cano at all, but had to show that it could be done (above)…but mostly to point out the absurdity of our overpaying in trades.
Players such as Cano, A-Rod, Jeter even Jorge come along once in a blue moon. When you have them, you keep them…unless your Agent is Boris (or what ever). 27/08??
The Yankees lack any kind of high level infield talent. Why would they trade a 25 yr old all star 2b?
Cashman hasn’t traded a top guy in years and hes going to start now with Cano? Who replaces him at 2b this yr? The AG? Ransom?
Please.
No kidding Torre wants Cano. Why wouldn’t he?
I would trade Robinson Cano in a heartbeat. You offer me any one of David Price, Tim Lincecum, Matt Weiters, Clayton Kershaw, Felix Hernandez, Yovani Gallardo, Francisco Liriano, Brian McCann, Scott Kazmir, or Justin Upton (and these guys are just off the top of my head) and I would probably injure myself running to sign-off on that deal.
Lincecum, King Felix, Liriano, Kazmir, McCann and Upton, yes. (Although I worry about injuries with Lincecum and Liriano…)
I don’t know if I’d sign off on Wieters, Gallardo, Price or Kershaw just yet… they haven’t proven and sustained anything at the big league level so far. I’m with you in thinking, because all of them project to be really, really good… but so does Cano.
Again, we’re talking about a guy in Cano who’s floor is probably a .305 average and 60 XBH at second base… that’s his floor. There’s still a real good chance he gets better as he gets older and stronger. He’s probably two years shy of his prime yet.
FWIW, Chase Utley (who physically is Cano’s mirror image) hit .239/.322/.373 and .266/.308/.468 in his 24 and 25 seasons before he exploded on the league in his third year at age 26… Cano did .297/.320/.458 and .342/.365/.525 in his first seasons, two full years younger than Utley, and then followed that up with .306/.353/.488 last year.
I’ll grant you that the Dr. Jekyll act he pulled to start ‘08 gives pause, but Cano is just a sick, sick hitter, and he’s still learning the league and getting stronger. It’s not a stretch at all to think he can be a #3 hitter, right in front of ARod, for most of the 2010’s.
Yes, there are some other really talented guys that you’d part with Cano to get, but I’d never describe myself trading Cano “in a heartbeat”. I’d deal Cano with trepidation, because you could be trading away an perennial MVP candidate.
(Price is really fucking nasty, though.)
Don’t get me wrong, Robinson Cano is my favorite player on the Yankees (that includes Mariano and A-Rod, yes, a Yankee fan who names A-Rod as one of his favorite players, gasp!) so I understand and fully believe in his potential. That being said, I value young, front-line potential starters and middle-of-the-diamond power bats who are 25 and under over anything. Obviously Cano fits that criteria but if you want to get more detailed I value Catchers and Short Stops offensively over Center Fielders and Second Basemen.
I love Robbie Cano’s potential and current skill-set but I would trade him for those guys listed in a heartbeat because I value them more than Cano.
BTW, I know Justin Upton is a RF but his bat is scary, scary good.
I’m with you.
The name of the game is; Strong up the middle. 27/08??
I’ll trade Cano for those guys except Gallardo, Price, Liriano and Kershaw.
I heart Joe Torre, he can do no wrong…
Scott Proctor disagrees.
Bah! Scott Proctor is a blowhard. He should be honored that he got the chance to pitch in pinstripes.
Scott Proctor should be happy that he was traded for Robin Ventura
Dodgers have had some injuries especially the huge lost of furcal. That said, I picked this team to win the division before the season started and picked them to represent the NL at the WS. First off, Arizona are not that good and are overrated. Dodgers on talent alone, are one of the more talented teams in the NL and have a legit rotation and bullpen.
Does Torre deserve some blame, who knows but this team shouldn’t be underachieving like this.
Plus, LA have one of the higher Payrolls in baseball.
For some reason the Dodgers seem to underachieve more times than not over the years.
when are people going to learn that the effect of a manager on a teams winning percentage is quite largely overstated. the difference between a good manager and a bad manager on a given team is likely not more than a few wins, yet managerial signings are always made out huge deals. who said that joe torre was a good manager anyway?
who said that joe torre was a good manager anyway?
umm, like everyone in the NY media for the last decade? do you not remember the shitstorm when he left this winter? beat writers like Abraham who still take every single opportunity to snipe at Girardi b/c Papa Joe was nicer to reporters and didn’t seem to have the anti ice cream agenda that Girardi has?
Torre wasn’t as good as his supporters think or as bad as his detractors think. he was the right manager at the right time from 1996-2001. since then he’s gotten a little lazy and i think it was time for a change.
if nothing else, Girardi is just as competent and cost $4M less. Torre’s contract demands were getting absurd.
“who said that joe torre was a good manager anyway?”
Woah there…I have my problems with Torre, but not a good manager? The fact of the matter is that he won. Other teams spend a lot of money, and they don’t win. Other teams have a bunch of all stars and they don’t win. Torre certainly had his shortcomings, and he was far from the best there ever was, but for god’s sake, any Yankees fan who had the honor of watching those teams win four world series owes joe something.
That being said, I wholeheartedly agree with steve(different one) that it was time for a change. I wouldn’t trade the time he managed for anyone else though.
I also must agree with Steve (DO).
Joe T had the right players at the right time…right place, right time. He seemed to be a hands off guy. Make out the line-up and let them play. 27/08??
Top Ten Reasons Joe Torre Quit the Yankees (Letterman, 10/19/07)
10. Yankees wanted to pay him in Radio Shack gift certificates
9. Got caught stealing rosin bags
8. Joining the cast of Broadway musical “Legally Blonde”
7. Wants to manage a winning team like the Colorado Whatever-Their-Name-Is
6. Couldn’t bear the grind of sitting on his ass watching baseball another second
5. Looking to focus on managing his fantasy baseball team
4. Wants to go someplace more peaceful — like Fallujah
3. $5 million a year — How’s a man supposed to live?
2. Doesn’t want to be working when he’s 90, like Letterman
1. Even Yogi Berra told him “It’s Over”
Who did Torre have to work with in the pen the past few years?
Edwar cried after getting shelled. Farnsworth was horrendous. He had Veras for a week. No Robertson.
Torre’s pen management looked damn good after Aug 1 when Joba was pitching.
I also havent heard anyone complain about Torre’s pen handling from 96-2003.
whatever, i am tired of this argument, but it is fairly unbelievable to me to think that people still don’t see how Torre couldn’t manage a bullpen.
go back and look at Vizcaino’s game log. look at some of the games he came into. the guy was way overworked and was used in 6-7-8 run games. ditto for Proctor the year before.
Torre managed his bullpen by going to his “trusted” guys over and over regardless of who else needed work or who was overworked.
it is the single most glaring difference between Torre and Girardi.
you know why Edwar cried? b/c the first time he gave up a run, he sat for TWO WEEKS. completely inexcusable.
he pulled the same shit with Britton.
is it any surprise that Viz and Gordon were gassed when the playoffs came around? did he really need Gordon with a 19-8 lead in game 3 of the 2004 ALCS??
he had his “circle of trust” and that was that.
he wasn’t a bad manager, but this was his weakness.
“Edwar cried after being shelled” Because Torre decided he was a black sheep for 18 days. “Torre’s pen management looked damn good after Aug. 1 when Joba was pitching” Because he was told how to use him.
Just because you “havent heard anyone complain about Torre’s pen handling from 96-2003″ doesn’t mean there were no complaints. You just were not aware of them.
Trust me his pen management was poor, yeah it gets overshadowed because they won more times and not, but it really doesn’t make it better. It helped that he had Lloyd, Stanton, Nelson, and Rivera, but after that he didn’t trust anyone
Look at the entire NL West. Something else must be going on there. To have 3 teams in the NL West go down to the wire into the playoffs…and then have EVERY SINGLE NL West team fail to even reach .500 nearly 5-10 games after the All Star break?? You’re telling me it’s all coincidence??
If it is, that’s some coincidence. I think they’re all just young players and are inconsistent and the rest of the leagues and picking up on how to pitch to these young guys. They’re adjusting and the young guys need a way to adjust back.
As for the injuries, there’s nothing you can do about that. Torre knows first hand about injuries on the team.
lol what are you saying? Conspiracy?
WAKE UP SHEEPLE
Soylent Green is people.
It tasted good, apparently.
A good hitting, excellent fielding 2B like Cano is tougher to replace than a corner hitting OF (like Kemp) who doesn’t strike me as anywhere the potential of an impact player. Even if this were a valid current offer, if I’m the Yankees, I walk away, unless the Dodgers want to expand the pie. Russel Martin or Looney as part of a more comprehensive trade package.
Jamal, I agree with trading Cano for the premier choices you listed, except for Liriano- he needs to prove he is the high ceiling talent he once show-cased, given the injury and surgery he had.
With no emotions involved, I might do the trade for Kemp/Kershaw. I’m not quite sure, and it’s hard to give up a player with such great offense (in spite of his first half), great defense at a premium position, and a great smile.
I am a bit skeptical of Kershaw. He’s an excellent young prospect, no doubt, but I think he’s been hyped a bit too much because of Koufax comparisons. I’m reluctant to rank a guy so highly when such a vital part of his game is below-average—his control/command. His fastball/curve are good, but they aren’t as good as hyped, and he lacks a consistent third pitch.
if you were to do Kemp/Kershaw, then youd have to send back more than Cano.
but if Cashman could somehow pry away Kershaw in a deal, he’d be a hero in NY.
True, but mostly because Kershaw is overvalued right now.
overvalued? surely, you jest.
could you imagine the potential of having Joba and Kershaw in this rotation for the next 5 years?
I’d rather have Price. Kershaw has too many holes in his game at this point. Maybe he corrects them, but rushing him as Colletti has done doesn’t help him much.