Manny, Joe Torre and the City of Angels together at last

A meaningless hour away, Washburn talks still alive
Game 108: Those dreaded Angels

At least, that’s what Jon Heyman says. Jason Bay is heading to Boston as part of the deal. More as we know it. The Rays’ inability to seal the Bay deal at the deadline may come back to hurt them after all.

Update: As expected, Ramirez waived his no-trade clause in exchange for the Dodgers’ declining his club options in 2009 and 2010. Those options were worth $20 million each. So Manny figures he can get more on the open market. While we’ve, for kicks, tossed around the idea of Manny’s coming to New York, odds are that another team will sign him to a longer term deal after this season. Scott Boras knows what’s out there and wouldn’t have given up $40 million if he couldn’t land a better deal elsewhere (See: Alex Rodriguez, circa Oct.-Nov. 2007).

Update 2: Good ol’ Kenny R. has more: “Pirates outfielder Jason Bay is headed to the Red Sox. The Pirates will receive Andy LaRoche and right-hander Bryan Morris from the Dodgers and outfielder Brandon Moss and releiver Craig Hansen from the Red Sox.” The Red Sox will also pick up all of the money left on Manny’s contract, and that strikes me as odd. If the Red Sox are willing to pay Manny not to play for them and they’re willing to forego the draft picks this off-season, they must really have wanted to ship Manny out of town this week.

Update on the Yanks: As many of you have noted, the Yanks sent the Former Attorney General to the Washington Nationals in exchange for Jhonny Nunez, a 22-year-old reliever. Chad Jennings breaks it down, and I can’t imagine this trade amounting to much of anything for either team.

A meaningless hour away, Washburn talks still alive
Game 108: Those dreaded Angels
  • tommiesmithjohncarlos

    This is a great day in Yankeedom.

    • Ben K.

      I wouldn’t say that unequivocally though. Jason Bay is just shy of 30 and is hitting .282/.375/.519 which is right in line with his career stats. That lineup with Pedroia, Youkilis, Ortiz, Bay and Drew in it is pretty fearsome. He doesn’t carry the same weight as Manny Ramirez, but he ain’t small beans.

      • tommiesmithjohncarlos

        I’m not saying Bay’s not good. But he’s a step down from ManRam, without question.

        • giselle

          i agree. and i doubt bay can carry the RS to the postseason like manny can.

        • Pete

          We know how these Sox trades go by now, don’t we? Within 1 month Jason Bay will:

          – grow some ridiculously awful facial hair (see: everyone who’s signed with Boston since 2000)
          – beat the Yankees in the bottom of the 9th at Fenway on a Sunday night on ESPN. Miller will wet himself making the call.
          – be hitting .400 at home
          – something something something the dark side of the force.

          • Eric Gagne


      • KW

        Hmm, I’m not sure what to make of it. For what it’s worth, the following chart shows a split between Abreu/Bay/Manny. Bay’s basically inferior to the other two at the same age, and surprisingly abreu even at his age holds up comparably well to Bay.

      • Steve S

        Completely agree. You take Bay and put him in that ballpark he is going to put up better numbers. The killer part for the Sox is having to give up hansen and moss, on top of Manny and $7M.

  • Ivan

    Oh yeah. Hope it’s a official.

  • Relaunch

    Lets see if Torre will “Trust” him.

  • Jamal G.

    With the Rays’ starting rotation and eventual call-up of David Price, I’d rather the Red Sox make the playoffs (along with us of course) if I had to choose between them and the Rays.

  • Pete


  • Jdog

    Thank god. No more Manny being Manny

    • Marsha

      What makes you think that? He’ll always be Manny being Manny no matter what team he is on.

  • Ivan

    The Cubs just whip the Brewers asses in their 4 game set.

    • Jamal G.

      That they did. Talk about a litmus test.

  • J.R.

    See that the Yankees traded the attorney general for pitching?

    • tommiesmithjohncarlos

      Sorry, that’s a typo. We traded him for bitching.

  • NYFan50

    Pittsburgh didn’t get a whole lot. LaRoche is really all they got.

  • Zack

    Don’t be so sure that the Sox losing Manny is good for the Yanks. Look over at RLYW and you’ll see that the projections are for them to basically be the same over the season, plus the Sox lose the “Manny clubhouse distraction” and have a younger, cheaper player for next season and $20M to spend on one CC Sabathia.

    This trade doesn’t make the Sox particularly worse going forward, and has the real chance to make them much better, simply by virtue of eliminating Hansen from their BP. The fact that they could have no leverage whatsoever and still come out with Jason Bay, about the best replacement for Manny you could hope for, is pretty freaking amazing

    • tommiesmithjohncarlos

      Eliminating Hansen from their BP? You’re clutching at straws.

      I’ll buy that this trade helps the Sox for ’09 and beyond, but they’re weakened for ’08.

      • Zack

        Um, Hansen sucks, have you noticed that? Like really really bad. And yet they still felt the need to throw him out there since he was their first rounder. But no, as I said, go over to RLYW and check out the actual #s. This trade doesn’t make them worse this season. You can’t think about the Manny of the past, but have to think about going forth. There is very little way that the drop off from Manny to Bay costs the Sox anything this season. Period.

        • tommiesmithjohncarlos

          I do know Hansen sucks. So do the Red Sox, which is why they basically never use him anymore. He’s sixth in line in their pen, and never pitches any innings of significance. So “making the pen better” by subtracting him is a non-statement, because he’s already been subtracted, he’s nothing but a mop-up man, a la LaTroy Hawkins. THAT’S why i said you were clutching at straws… that’s like saying that the thing that’s going to put us over the top this year is that we were able to get rid of Jeff Karstens in the Nady deal. It’s a nonfactor… The Hansen impact is negligible.

    • ceciguante

      “doesn’t make the sox particularly worse”? projections, my ass. manny is MUCH better than jason bay. one of the best hitters of the generation. jason bay is a nice player, but he’s a serious downgrade from manny for 2008.

      • Zack

        No, in fact you are wrong. Manny WAS much better than Bay. Right now, they are not very different at all. He is not a serious downgrade at all. Look at the actual #s. Look at their projections, with park factors etc. Saying that its a huge downgrade is simply reacting based on blind emotion. Bay might do worse against the yankees, but over the rest of the season, the difference between him and Manny will be negligible. Period.

        Don’t look at the trade thinking about who Manny was, look at it in the context of who he is now…

        • tommiesmithjohncarlos

          Again, I am looking at the context of who he is now. This year, Jason Bay has had one AMAZINGLY HOT month and three slightly above average ones.

          ManRam has had one totally horrible month and three AMAZINGLY HOT ones. Manny’s numbers are better than Bay’s, and Bay at his best still isn’t as good as Manny at his best.

          Again, June and July, as in RIGHT NOW, Bay is a pretty good outfielder, Manny is one of the two or three best hitters in the entire game.

          .268/.336/.495 (OPS+ 120)
          .277/.336/.485 (OPS+ 114)

          .286/.394/.536 (OPS+ 147)
          .347/.473/.587 (OPS+ 180)

          • ceciguante

            exactly. and manny may well have been jakin it, a la rickey henderson in 1988. superstars have a way of turning it on in a big way once they find a uniform they like.

        • ceciguante

          wrong. you’re trying to sell the idea that manny and bay will just cancel each other out the rest of the year, and it’s suspect. if you look at it month by month, as a poster did on a prior thread today, you will see that manny was awful early in the season, but has returned to typical dominating form since june. manny is clearly a better hitter than bay, unless and until he declines significantly due to age. you can cite RLYW projections all you want, but i’m not buying them.

          bay should find his level at 130-135 ops+ (maybe a bit less, now that he’s in the tough league). manny is at 140 after a rough spring and, i’d bet, is on the upswing. his ceiling is just far greater than bay’s, and my guess is that with the change of scenery, he plays up to it.

  • Thurman

    Wow, seems like the sox just got hosed. I’m in Boston and my office is in the city and everyone in the office just went apeshit.
    It was hilarious, everytime an update came up the got angrier and angrier. When Hanson and Moss’ names showed they were mad and when they announced that the sox were paying his contract i thought someone was gonna start flipping cubicles.
    I’m just sitting here laughing. This is great.

    • NYFan50

      What do they care about Hansen and Moss?

      • Thurman

        They are all idiots. People in Boston seem to think taht because Hanson can throw hard he is good (look at ANY of his stats). And someone just screamed “MOSS! He could be like a good major league outfielder.”
        I didn’t have the heart to tell him otherwise, plus, it’s fun to see them freak.

        • ceciguante

          wow, that’s free entertainment. i’d pay to see a webcam of your office right now.

  • tommiesmithjohncarlos

    Manny’s options were dropped in the deal, so he’s definitely a free agent in the offseason…

    • GoYankees

      Manny will have to prove that he is close to the player he once was. Great for the Dodgers. If he cannot regain his rep as a player, he will never see anything like the 20mil he just lost.


    Alberto Gonzalez for Nats RHP Minor leaguer Jhonny Nunez

    • Thurman

      Nunez is apparently decent according to Jennings. 22 years old, 94-95 fastball/slider guy with a sinker and a shitty change.
      Gonzalez wasn’t a fit for the Yanks, and this is nice for him too because he gets to actually audition for a starting job with the Nats. I have no problem with it.

  • Jamal G.

    Who here wants to take bets that Joe Torre will be starting one of Andruw Jones or Juan Pierre, when both should be sitting their asses on the bench (or in Jones’ case, DFA’d)?

  • bklynJT

    I’m sorry but this is great. Boston will forever be haunted by what i will now refer to as “The curse of Manny being Manny”

  • Jamal G.

    Heh, I remember when the NY media killed the Yanks and Mets for passing up Craig Hansen in the 2005 MLB Draft. Fucking morons.

    • Ivan

      Word. I remember when Chris Russo was murdering the yankees or not going after the guy. Everybody killed both NY teams for not drafting him. Guess who got the last laugh.

  • Ivan

    Did John Heyman just called Andy Laroche a middling prospect. Gee Heyman, maybe if the Dodgers brass played him more maybe if wouldn’t be so middling.

    • Jamal G.

      Jon Heyman is an idiot that has great sources. The man is impeccable as a reporter, anything beyond that, don’t waste your time.

  • Jamal G.

    Heh, crashed due to the traffic of the trade.

  • Jamal G.

    Oh, how cool is it now that the LaRoche brothers are the starting corner infielders for the Buccos?

  • Jamal G.

    So do you bat Jason Bay third and have Big Papi cleanup? I think that’s the best option but maybe Terry Francona might not want to stack three right-handed batters at the top of the lineup (Pedroia, Youkilis, and Bay). I just think that it will be a better advantage for Boston if Bay sees better pitches hitting in front of David Ortiz than Ortiz being protected by Jason Bay.

  • Travis G.

    a lot for the sawx to give up. bay is a very good hitter, but he’s not the crusher that manny is or was. bay’s prime (right now) is almost as good as manny’s decline.

    • tommiesmithjohncarlos

      bay’s prime (right now) is almost as good as not really that close to manny’s decline.

      Fixed it for you.

  • Jake H

    I’m glad Manny is gone!

  • Ivan

    Speakig or trades, in the NBA, I like the trade the Rockets pulled off to get Ron Artest. Sure he maybe the basketball version Milton Bradley but like Bradley is a very talented player who can play lock down D and improves an already great defensive team in concern with the rockets and definitely improves their offense.

    The only problem I worry with Artest he tends to be a “Ball stopper” a guy who once gets the flow of the offense stops and goes too much one on one.

    Overall love the trade.

    Just my two cent in basketball.

  • BigBlueAL

    All im saying, i remember in 2004 when everyone was excited the Red Sox had traded away Nomar and replaced him with Orlando Cabrera. We know what happened that season….

    • Jamal G.

      Orlando Cabrera was not the reason (nor was he even among the top five reasons) the Red Sox won those four straight games in the ALCS.

      • DP

        The point is that we thought losing Nomar made them worse.

        • tommiesmithjohncarlos

          And my counterpoint is that losing Nomar can never possibly hurt as much as losing Manny Ramirez. Nomar has never been in his league, even at his best.

          • BigBlueAL

            DP got my point, Im not in anyway comparing the two trades or players, just saying how back then everyone assumed the Red Sox made themselves worse just like everyone thinks they have done the same thing today. Im just talking about the perception and what people think will happen to the Red Sox for the remainder of the season….

            • TheLastClown

              Your point is encapsulated in the ellipses you put at the end. It’s the equivalent of wagging your finger & saying “You never know, better not get your hopes up, just wait and see…”

              But just because people thought something once, and now we have a situation where the only similarities are the team involved, and that a trade was made, and that people think a similar thing to what they thought years ago, you can’t really draw any kind of logical parallels between the two scenarios.

              The stats, the gut feeling, and ALL those times that we cringed when Manny beat the hell out of our pitching tells us definitely that Boston is going to fare worse against the Yankees without him. And since we have six more games against them, that is a significant thing to know. Even if the Rays do not falter, this move has made the BoSox inherently more beatable, and thus passable, to us.

              Anything beyond that is just speculation…

  • Jamal G.

    The Red Sox might call up Hunter Jones from Triple-A to replace Craig Hansen. No reads on his stuff but his numbers look good at Pawtucket: 9.71-K/9, 1.89-BB/9, 41/8-K/BB.

  • Four Train

    Boston is back to being an ordinary team offensively. This is not to say that they are going to be average, with that lineup they’ll surely be well above that. But, they will no longer have that magical clutchness that Manny provided. The Manny-Ortiz combo made Boston special and that is now broken.

    Bay will be good and will perfect his swing for Fenway, but will never equal Manny. It may take him a year to adjust to playing in insane Boston with their fruitcake fan base. I can’t help but think this deal is good for the Yankees. Whether the Yanks wil be able to capitalize is the question.

    • Ivan

      There offense is going to be very good, with Bay, Ortiz, and Drew and good top of the order. There offense is still very good.

      • tommiesmithjohncarlos

        Yes, their offense is still very good.

        No, their offense is not good enough anymore to consistently beat good pitching, which they’ve been doing a lot up until now.

  • Mike W.

    I love that Manny is gone. Bay is a nice hitter and has a great price for 2009, but every single time Manny came up against any of the Yankee pitchers I thought that he was going to mash a 550 foot homerun into my seat in the LF bleachers. Bay can certainly jack the ball, but I am not going to have that fear anymore with him. Also, who knows how Bay is going to react to the stress of the AL race and the whole NYY-Bos rivalry. He may be great. He may not. We did know though, that Manny was great in that situation. Since I won’t have to watch that anymore, I am glad…

    • Mike W.

      Also, the one thing that Boston did not do in this trading season was upgrade themselves for this year. We did. Hopefully the moves that we make give us the edge of making the push for the playoffs.

  • GoYankees

    It’s a case of addition by subtraction. The Sox will be better than they were now with Manny breaking their back. The difference in a corner outfielder from Manny to Bay is minor. It’s just that we don’t see it that way. We see Manny & Ortiz the way they used to be. But that is no more. The Sox made a necessary and good move for them. They were sinking before the trade Let’s hope that continues.

    • DP

      Nobody on the Yankees can get Manny out with regularity. Over the long haul, Bay and Manny might be equal, but when facing the Red Sox, I am very glad we don’t have to face Manny.

      • TheLastClown

        Bay & Manny will never be equal over the long haul. Unless you’re strictly talking about this year, then MAYBE at the end of the season their numbers will be comparable, but tommiesmithjohncarlos elucidated this earlier.

        If you’re talking about the long haul of a career…no chance.

        Bay has 100 in only 2 seasons, Manny perenially does it. You could say no one got on for Bay to drive in in Pitt, but then he’s gotten to 30 HR twice as well, in those same two seasons.

        I dont know Bay’s swing, maybe he’ll turn into a doubles machine @ Fenway but he’ll never be…..

        I don’t even know why I’m arguing with you, I agree with you….never want to face Manny again…except in a Dodgers/Yankees WS

  • Pingback: Manny has been traded. Thank you, GOD! « The Analytical Yankee Fan

  • mustang

    WIN…. WIN…WIN.

    Bottom line I will take my chance with Jason Bay over Manny anytime. That double-headed dragon of Manny & Ortiz is done.


  • Double-J

    Incidentally, someone mentioned that the options are now gone, making Manny an FA in the offseason. Some of us (like myself) salivate at the idea of Manny in pinstripes, but whatever you think of the idea, what does a trade to Los Angeles mean in terms of Manny hitting the FA market? They certainly have more financial room that the Marlins, who would have let him go for sure. Is there a chance he hits the market, and if so, what teams can afford him?

  • adeelmd

    1) you traded a hall of famer for an all-star?

    2) It would be like the Yankees trading Derek Jeter for Milton Bradley.

    This is a significant downgrade.

    And why are Yankee fans quoting numbers? Just take a look at A-rod’s numbers, and compare his two MVP seasons. I mean no diss to A-rod, but numbers only take you so far…. After a certain level, the difference between .280 and .310 doesn’t matter much, it’s the intagibles and clutch ability of a player that is much more important.

    I ask again, would you trade a hall of famer for an all-star.

    And one more thing, Manny was right that the red sox don’t care about their players. Once they have extracted the best years from them, it’s bye-bye. How many sox players are quietly thinking to themselves now; The yankees sign Mariano and Posada to long contracts, while Theo can’t wait to flip us for two draft picks.

    Just because he went about it the wrong way doesn’t mean he was wrong.