Perhaps that neck is feeling better

Hope or delaying the inevitable
A matter of perspective

I guess the ice pack worked. According to Ed Price, Carl Pavano’s neck is feeling better, and Pavano will probably start on Saturday in Baltimore. This could be a momentous occasion indeed. Fun fact: Carl Pavano has made two starts since the beginning of the 2007 campaign, and I witnessed one of them in person.

Hope or delaying the inevitable
A matter of perspective
  • Doug Q

    Opening Day?

  • Old Ranger

    Carl is one of the best pitchers we have, of course I don’t know if he is 100%. If he is, that is good news for the Yanks and their play-off hopes.
    People forget, this guy was very good…will he capture his old self? We may find out Saturday. 27/09?

    • Setty

      One of the best pitchers we have currently? Or on the roster? He was really only good for one year of his career, and during the Marlins playoff run in ’03. He is a lifetime .500 pitcher

      • radnom

        Don’t worry about winning percentage, especially with him playing for the Marlins. In terms of purely pitching ability, who do we have healthy that you would rather see out there than Pavano? Mussina, obviously, Pettite…and…….?
        Pavano isn’t a Rasner/Giese type scrub hes a legit front half of the rotation guy if he is healthy and living up to his potential.

        • Count Zero

          Forget about winning percentage — his career ERA+ is 100. He is pretty much an average pitcher who had one very good year in 2004 when he popped for a 137 in a contract year. The three years prior to that were 70, 80 and 98.

          Calling him a “very good” pitcher is probably a stretch. A career 100 ERA+ doesn’t back up the notion that he’s a “legit front half” starter.

          • Geno

            Exactly. The guy is the antithesis of a gamer. He had one good year when he was playing for a contract. This isn’t a coincidence. The list of injuries is comical. Could you imagine Pettite sitting out months with a sore ass?

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

              He’s the antithesis of a “gamer”?

              John Kruk, is that you?

              • Geno

                Sorry man, I’ll use smaller words from now on.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                  Okay… that response somehow made even less sense.

                • Geno

                  Wow. I don’t know. Which words are you having problems with? There are online dictionaries you can use. Is it the word gamer? I didn’t know Kruk came up with that one. Or maybe you were just rattling on, sadly searching for a laugh? Judging from your usual inane posts, I’d guess it’s B.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                  Yes, it was the “gamer” comment. I didn’t know people smarter than John Kruk (which is about 99.9999% of the world’s population) actually used that “gamer” term with a straight face.

                  And your response made less sense still because Kruk clearly has no clue what “antithesis” means, so for me to call you Kruk and you to interpret that as a comment about “antithesis” and not “gamer” was all the more bizarre.

          • radnom

            Oh, so you mean an average pitcher who finally put it all together as he matured? Obviously there was something there because both the Sox and Yankees offered him 4 years at 10 mil+ a year (the sox actually offered more).

            Regardless my point still stands…even if you consider only the 2003 Pavano, he would still be EASILY either our 3rd or 4th best starting pitcher we have available right now (depending on how you feel about Ponson’s recent renaissance)

            • Count Zero

              I’m not disputing that Pavano is the best choice to start Saturday so don’t get me wrong — I’m just disputing that he’s a “legit front half of the rotation” guy.

              What would you call Andy? He’s not a #1, right? He’s a legit #2, right? Well in comparison, Andy has a career ERA+ of 117 and has never (that’s never as in not ever, not even once) posted an ERA+ below 100 in 14 MLB seasons. By contrast, Carl Pavano’s ERA+ looks like this: 100, 80, 158, 70, 80, 98, 137, 89. (That last one is his 2005 performance in pinstripes over 17 starts — which you guys seem to have forgotten.) Andy the #2 starter significantly > Carl Pavano.

              With the exception of two outlier seasons, Pavano is a #4 whne he’s healthy. Throw in the two good years and he may be a #3. The only reason he was so sought after in the winter of 2004 / 2005 is because they thought he had turned a corner and become a #1 / #2 — a notion which was quickly dispelled in 17 starts during 2005 when he went 100 IP, 129 H, 17 HR (!), 56 K, 1.470 WHIP, ERA 4.77.

              Again — he’s definitely the best choice on Saturday. But he’s not a “legit front half of the rotation” guy. Your memory is looking through rose-colored glasses.

              • radnom

                You are assuming his first 4 years are more indicative of his actual talent, and I am assuming the second 2 are. Those are the years in which he was entering his prime. Apparently, based on the contracts he was offered at the time, the Red Sox and Yankees front offices both were in line with my thinking. Obviously, no one could foresee what has happened the past 4 years, so now you have to wonder if he will ever be that type of pitcher again.

          • Chris

            Wouldn’t an average pitcher be defined as a #3 starter? 1-2 starters are better than average, 4-5 pitchers are below average? I’ll take average if that’s what he can give.

            • radnom

              Assuming that all rotations are exactly the same quality, yes I suppose that would be true…..but entirely useless since it comes from an absurd assumption.

              • Chris

                You’re right… our rotation is below average, so he would be better than a #3.

          • Old Ranger

            If one looks at the stats you wrote, one could say he kept improving every year. 27/09?

            • Old Ranger

              Radnom…
              Sorry, didn’t see your post. Good point. 27/09?

        • Old Ranger

          Thank you. 27/09?

        • pat

          haha but those are two very very big IFS.
          At least he will have the advantage of having never been seen why the sox and others. I think even if he pitches decently he could have some early success like rasner did.

          • pat

            *by the sox

  • Old Ranger

    By the by, if the yanks can win the next 5 sets, I am changing back to 27/08? Even though our chances of going deep into the P.O.s are very if’y, I must get behind my team.
    Ben A…
    Yes, I am a wosssss@#$%#. Also, a realist, with optimistic tendencies and a tenuous grasp on sanity. These guys are driving me crazy. Go, Yanks! 27/09?

  • RobertGKramer

    Pavano has the MLB innings to be effective without his best stuff. Hughes does not! Simple.

  • yanks99

    IFFF they make the postseason the rotation could be Wang, Chamberlain, Mussina, Pettite…that’s a huge upgrade…you never know, maybe the bats will get hot.

    • TurnTwo

      there is no chance you see Wang again this year.

      and if Joba comes back, there’s a chance he’ll get thrown in the pen for whatever is left of the season.

      it’ll be Pettitte, Moose, Ponson, and (Pavano, Rasner, Hughes) for the playoffs… but obviously thats a big if right now.

      • radnom

        “and if Joba comes back, there’s a chance he’ll get thrown in the pen for whatever is left of the season.”

        Where exactly did this come from? NO WAY they would put his arm through that transition. He is either going to start or get shut down for the year.

        • TurnTwo

          read it in an article a couple days ago, and heard it on the radio, too.

          it comes down to his arm strength. if he cant build up enough arm strength to be able to throw 5-6-7 innings at full strength by the end of his rehab, but feels comfortable throwing 1-2 innings at full strength, and they get within a couple games with 2 weeks to go, you really think they are going to sit him for the season rather than take advantage of what they can get from him?

          i know this is the new way of yankees development and everything, but it wouldnt surprise me in the least.

          • radnom

            Was this just speculation by some sportscasters or did it actually come from a source in the organization?

            This sounds unrealistic to me because of one thing…..hes only been out 15 days and he has already begun to throw. If he can’t get his arm strength up to be able to throw 5+ innings by mid september (realistically WAY sooner) then he is NOT healthy. And if that is the case then of course they wouldn’t throw him in the bullpen, no matter how close the race is.

            • TurnTwo

              as always, it came from the always dependable anonymous sources within the organization, if i remember correctly.

              but again, wouldnt surprise me.

              • radnom

                Really? You wouldn’t be surprised if he has trouble getting back to full arm strength but is completely healthy? Or you wouldnt be surprised if they sent him to the bullpen with a lingering injury?

                um…….ok then

                • TurnTwo

                  i wouldnt be surprised if they sent him to the bullpen, no.

                • radnom

                  Which means you wouldnt be surprised by one of the above statements, because that is the only way thats happening.

                  Pretty silly

          • The Fallen Phoenix

            Links? Because I’d be willing to bet that what you read and heard is media speculation; I find it very, very unlikely that Cashman & co. would relegate Joba to the bullpen for the stretch. It’d have to be rotation or nothing – that’s where the need is, that’s where Joba’s future is, and that’s where he can get the innings.

            I’d rather Joba get one or two starts and “only” 10-12 innings that way, then fifteen relief appearances and only 15 innings. You’d really be getting the same number of innings either way, in my opinion.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

            TurnTwo: The radio show you were listening to and the newspaper you read are both hot bullshit. The only hosts or columnists that would engage in boundless speculation like that which is diametrically opposed to the thinking (and the will) of Cashman, Girardi, the Steins, and every single person in the Yankee organization are hacks with self-aggrandizing, contrarian agendas like Mike Francesa or Joel Sherman.

            There is a less-than-Kelvin-scale-zero chance that Joba is anything but a starting pitcher in 2008, 2009, 2010, or until he pulls a Terry Mulholland at the age of 45.

  • Old Ranger

    Stats can be twisted to tell any story one wants. Knowledge of the game and watching the games in person (when possible) gives one a better perspective of things.
    For example; did you know, Jeter is playing deeper at short? Did you know; a (very) good pitcher…oh, hell you get the idea. There is so much that is missed with stats, a very fast, compact, smooth swing doesn’t show up in stats…unless one is hitting well, but it gives one the insight as to what he may become.
    I believe in Stats, but only as a back-up to my eyes and knowledge of the game. One can hit .350 for the year and .202 WRISP, or as with Rocky Colavito hit 45 HRs when the game is over…big loss or win. I realise this is unbelievable for you stat people, but that’s me. If it works for you , good show and more power to you. 27/09?

  • Mark B

    Carl Pavano’s penchant for breaking down and spotty injury history after having one big year in ’03 has all the signs of someone who was a major roider. Mark Prior is an excellent comparison of someone who was also a one-year wonder who can’t see to take a leak now without getting hurt. Until he comes back and pitches decent for a complete season, he can never be considered one of the better Yankee pitchers nor can he be excluded from the steroid talk.

    • 27 this year

      roids give people sore asses?

      • pat

        where do you think the injections go?

        • 27 this year

          oh yea? That would explain why it lasted months.

    • Chris

      Mark Prior is a completely different case. He was abused by Dusty Baker in his one good year. Whether he’s just fragile, or was destroyed by over use, no one cal tell, but it certainly didn’t help. Pavano had no such assistance in his injuries.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      Interesting theory. Pitchers break down all the time, though, with or without juice. Hard to say.

  • Manimal

    Man, there are alot of “what if’s” with this team. What if Pavano was actually good and pitched for HALF of the years in his contract

    • Old Ranger

      You think that is bad, try this…what IF he pitches great, and the Yanks resign him? 27/09?

      • 27 this year

        The only way he plays for the Yankees past this year is if he pays us.

        • Old Ranger

          I did say it was bad!

          Besides, stranger things have happened, and if the contract were loaded with incentives, why not?
          I have been in places (bad places) with people I didn’t like, but the bottom line has always been…win! Winning is everything, adapt and improvise. 27/09?

      • Mark B

        Not unless he wants a 1 year contract.

        I see him taking a 2 or 3 year deal from a crappy team like Seattle, Washington or possibly Pittsburgh who is more willing to gamble on a longer term deal.

        Assuming Pettitte and Mussina come back and if we sign Sabathia, not sure where he would fit in the rotation.

        If there i anybody deserving of a contract for next year, Ponson would be the guy. He’s a decent job this year for being picked up next to nothing.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          Bill Bavasi probably already signed Pavano to a clandestine, Joe-Smith-and-Kevin-McHale like 4-year, 55M deal back in April before he was axed.

  • Chris

    Here’s an interesting question… who has the better rotation right now, the Red Sox or Yankees.

    Red Sox have Dice-K, Lester, Beckett, Zink(?), then someone else.
    Yankees have Mussina, Pettitte, Ponson, Rasner, Pavano(?).

    I’d hate to try to make a playoff run with either of those rotations…

    • radnom

      Mussina > Dice-K

      but unfortunately I would take Lester > Pettite and Beckett > Ponson.

      Although supposedly Beckett has some numbness which could shift things a bit. Joba coming back would shift it in the Yankees favor.

      Too bad the Yankees are the team that have to make the “run” and not the other way around………

  • r.w.g.

    Watching you guys argue about the merits of Carl Pavano and whether or not he’s any good is comical.

    Fuck Carl Pavano. He’s a loser, a whiner, and a quitter. I would rather miss the playoffs than see that ass-bag make another start for us. His bogus list of injuries through years have been a complete disgrace to the pinstripes. He’s a no-class asshole who doesn’t deserve to put the uniform on.

    But this is the team that employs a rampant alcoholic as it’s #3.

    • TurnTwo

      dont be afraid to tell us how you really feel.

    • The Fallen Phoenix

      Rocco Baldeli and his bogus list of injuries say hello.

      • r.w.g.

        Did Carl Pavano ever break down and cry about not being able to play baseball? Why don’t you go look up what’s wrong with Rocco Baldelli before you compare the two?

        I’m going to go one step further. Fuck anybody defending Pavano.

        • TurnTwo

          wow, you’re taking this way too personally.

          • r.w.g.

            Yeah, that comment was way out of line and I apologize. Not acceptable at all.

      • radnom

        Rocco Baldeli has a mitochondrial disease that took doctors forever to recognize and still are not sure the exact diagnosis. That was the reason behind a lot of his inexplicable injuries but he is receiving treatment now and hopefully is getting passed it.

        To compare a guy who has some serious bad luck caused by a condition completely out of control to someone who has demonstrated a lack of passion to be out on the field (Pavano) is stupid and unfair.

    • Old Ranger

      We also had a HOF CF a few years back, who was an alcoholic. Maybe you remember him…Mickey Mantle! 27/09?

    • steve (different one)

      I would rather miss the playoffs than see that ass-bag make another start for us.

      yeah, not me. that’s silly.

      But this is the team that employs a rampant alcoholic as it’s #3.

      right, and yet everyone here cherishes the accomplishments of our 1996-2000 teams that featured such pictures of sobriety like Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Davis Wells, and Jim Leyritz.

      it was ok to root for those guys, but not Ponson.

      and of course, Micky Mantle never had a drink or two.

      if Pavano produces, i will root for him.

      this “disgrace to the pinstripes” notion is absurd. it’s delusional to think that the players who have worn the pinstripes hold an sort of moral superiority to any other team.

      • r.w.g.

        He’s an absolute quitter. The guy spit in the organizations face and stole money and hey, he’ll come through in September and everything will be cool.

        This line of thinking is why we sign guys like Ponson (Mickey never punched a judge, did he?). This is why Johnny Damon won’t bunt. This is why Giambi won’t go the other way. This is why Melky is “shocked” when he gets sent to Scranton and why Cano doesn’t bust it.

        What a joke.

        • steve (different one)

          He’s an absolute quitter. The guy spit in the organizations face and stole money and hey, he’ll come through in September and everything will be cool.

          no, it won’t be really be “cool”. i don’t want him on the team next year. i still want to cut ties with him as soon as possible.

          yet, while he is here, i’d prefer that he provide the yankees SOME return on their investment.

          if he can pitch well down the stretch and that helps the yankees to the playoffs, why wouldn’t you want that?

          what do you “get” by hoping for the other option? some sort of misguided feeling of satisfaction and the ability to berate the guy on the internet? i’d take the wins.

          • r.w.g.

            I’m just going to drop it. If you honestly cannot understand why someone would care more about personal responsibility and integrity than making the baseball playoffs, I don’t know what to tell you, steve.

            • steve (different one)

              hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

              r.w.g., If you honestly think that your personal grudge against Carl Pavano is more important than the 24 other members of the Yankees making the playoffs and having the chance to compete for a title, or the millions of us fans having a chance to watch our team play for that title, then I don’t know what to tell you. Have some perspective. Pavano didn’t kill or rape anyone, he signed a contract to compete for us and things didn’t work out well. It happens. Let’s be grown up about it.

              I wold never put any personal dislike of any player over my constant abiding desire to see my team compete and do well. Carl Pavano is not bigger than the Yankees. They’re a professional club who is in the business of winning baseball games, and anyone who can potentially help them do that is good for them and good for me. Whatever Pavano has done in the past is irrelevant to what he can do on Saturday, which is give us a needed win.

              Chill out.

      • Mark B

        Amen to Steve (different one)!

  • Old Ranger

    Mark B. said;
    If there is anybody deserving of a contract for next year, Ponson would be the guy. He’s a decent job this year for being picked up next to nothing.

    Anyone have a problem with that statement? I don’t! I will discount any and all reactionary comments by r.w.g. on the subject. I think he has made his point very, shall we say…creative. 27/09?

    • r.w.g.

      Well you’re already discounting me, so I’ll keep it short. Sidney doesn’t need a job, he needs to stop drinking.

      I’m frankly disgusted the Yankees continue to employ and enable him.

      • steve (different one)

        I’m frankly disgusted the Yankees continue to employ and enable him.

        are you disgusted that the yankees continues to employ Andy Pettitte?

        • r.w.g.

          Truthfully, yeah I’d prefer they cut ties with the cheater.

      • Chris A

        who cares if hes a drunk. The First and foremost important thing about being a Yankee fan, or a fan of any team for that matter, is that you root for the laundry. ALWAYS. Pavano, and Ponson and whomever are all Yankees. when they pitch you should root for them….you root for the laundry, i cant stress that enuf.

        • r.w.g.

          I’m just going to take a step back and agree to disagree. I have very strong opinions (based on my line of work) about what the Yankees are doing with Ponson and the way he continues to lead his life.

          I also have very strong opinions about people who quit and make up excuses because they don’t like the situation they are in. Carl Pavano made his own bed and is not a man. He didn’t like his toughness being questioned and instead of getting tougher.. he backed down and weaseled and wormed his way through a list of faux-injuries.

          I don’t have any sympathy or respect for men who have not earned it.

          • Mark B

            You are basing judgement on the weak theory that Carl’s injuries were fake…..and you know this how? Unless you are the Lord Alimighty himself, there is no way you can know this. ARgue about how he got injured, but not that he’s faking them. Carl has not benefit to faking anyhthing as he needs to pitch to earn his next contract.

            • r.w.g.

              He was paid $40 million dollars. On top of the money he earned in signing bonuses as an amateur and his arbitration awards.

              He’s so set for life it’s not even funny. What’s he going to buy with his second contract that he can’t buy with his first?

              Who misses months of work with butt pain?

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                People with injured butts.

          • Old Ranger

            r.w.g. respectively; who the hell made you the P.C. Policeman of the Yankees, or for that matter…anyone else? We have gotten the idea already (from many of your posts), you are intolerant, unforgiving, insulting, reactionary etc., I could go on…but I won’t. Other then that, I enjoy your posts at least you do say what you really think, good for you.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

              You’re a jerkface, an assclown, and a baby murderer, but other than that, I enjoy your work.

    • Mark B

      I always thought life was all about giving second chances to those who are looking to clean up their act. Life is too short and none of us are that perfect that we can or should be that judgemental so as to forever brand someone as a quitter, drunk, loser, etc. Give Carl and Sidney a chance. Texas did with Josh Hamilton…..that;s looking pretty good for them!

      • r.w.g.

        You’re missing the target by a wide margin. Sidney ISN’T trying to clean up his life. He was booted out of Texas because he’s a sloppy drunk who’s supposed to be staying clean and wasn’t. Don’t even compare him to Josh Hamilton who is ON POINT every day of his life staying sober.

        He fits in with the Yankees because he can go out drinking with Jason “.200 avg w/ RISP” Giambi and nobody will give him shit about it.

        • steve (different one)

          wow, you are making a lot of assumptions from a position of ignorance.

          you really have no idea how Ponson, or Hamilton really, are living when they aren’t playing.

          • r.w.g.
            • r.w.g.

              I love the part where he says another team will “only look at his numbers”. lol that’s so relevant to what we’re all talking about.

            • steve (different one)

              yeah, everyone here knows about that. thanks.

              the point Mark B. was making was that the Yankees were giving Ponson another chance.

              and so far he has behaved.

              YOU claimed that Ponson was still drinking while on the Yankees. i’ll wait for you to prove that.

              • r.w.g.

                Maybe you’ll ridicule me for bringing this up, but I distinctly remember a poster here on this blog shared a story about running into many Yankee players at a hotel.

                He posted the story in several threads. I explicitly remember the gentleman saying Sidney was having a beer at the bar. I’m currently sifting through the site to find it for you, steve.

                • r.w.g.

                  Well I can’t find it because I have no idea what thread it was in. So I’ll take the hit here and you can tell me that I am wrong and I’ll accept that.

                • steve (different one)

                  yeah, i remember it. it was posted by Chofo. try searching around the time of the Texas series.

                  guess what, it doesn’t prove shit.

                  was the story that he was drunk and starting fights and being a jerk?

                  no, it was that he was quietly having “a beer” while sitting at the bar and discussing pitching with (i think) Mariano.

                  what an asshole.

                • r.w.g.

                  I’m going to stop commenting in this thread after this, but I’d be very surprised if that was Sidney’s only beer that night.

                  The guy is in alcholic, and in my line of work I see guys like him all the time. He doesn’t really have any incentive to stop drinking because he gets bailed out. So he goes through his “tune-ups” and says he’s going to do better.

                  He doesn’t want to stop drinking, he just wants to get a handle on it. I just think the whole situation lacks class. The real sad part is that when he finally falls completely apart, he won’t have any ties to the Yankees at all and nobody will care.

                • radnom

                  I think it was the day of the first game of the Texas series where it was oppressively hot. The hotel in question was in Texas, and I remember thinking that the description of them all lounging around having beer and wine would not be good for their hydration in the 100 degree weather haha.

                • steve (different one)

                  look, it sounds like you have a different perspective on this sort of situation. i can understand that.

                  i am simply saying, as long as Ponson isn’t a disgrace WHILE in pinstipes and is a model citizen, that i don’t have a problem with him wearing the pinstripes.

                  we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

        And for the record, Mark B., life is not all about giving second chances to those who are looking to clean up their act.

        Life is all about having the foresight to retain international merchandising rights.

  • radnom

    I would pass on Sidney purely from a baseball standpoint. Whatever happened in Texas stayed their, and hes behaved pretty well over here while exceeding all of our expectations on the mound.

    That being said, do any of you really want him to be in the rotation to start the season next year? I certainly wouldn’t. Sure it would be nice to have him around in case someone goes down with an injury, but hes pitched well enough to earn a spot in some team’s rotation to start the year next year.

    • steve (different one)

      That being said, do any of you really want him to be in the rotation to start the season next year?

      no, absolutely not.

    • Old Ranger

      No! 27/09?