Aug
24

Should Moose head to Cooperstown?

By

A little Sunday afternoon discussion for you: Jonah Keri thinks that Mike Mussina belongs in the Hall. Do you? What if he reaches 20 wins this year and somehow makes it up to the 285-300 range over the next few years? This old Moose seems to have a few tricks up his sleeve, and one of them may be earning himself a spot in Cooperstown.

Categories : Asides
  • Tripp

    I only think he makes it if he gets to 300. Otherwise, he’ll be the Bert Blylevin of his generation.

    • Andy in Once Again Sunny Daytona

      As long as he stays 100 games over .500, which I’m sure that he will, he’s a lock.

    • Steve

      That is such a lazy, bogus argument usually made by those who have never looked at who is in the HOF and who isn’t. The majority of pitchers who are in the HOF DO NOT have 300 wins, even going back to the pre-WW2 era and dead ball era. Bob Feller, Jim Bunning, Jim Palmer, Juan Marichal, Whitey Ford, Bob Gibson, Sandy Kofax, Don Drysdale, Catfish Hunter, etc etc all do not have 300 wins. And they all pitched in the 4 man rotation era where they got more starts annually than you do today.

      Of the 50 pitchers in the hall, only TWENTY have 300 wins or more. 300 makes somebody a no brainer, but it is NOT a minimum requirement. Far from it.

      http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofstpi.shtml

  • Old Ranger

    Agree with both…Tripp and Andy, to some extent.
    I don’t really think he has to win 300 games. This is a different era, very few pitchers win 20+ anymore…a hand full each year. Plus, he had to face a bunch of juiced up players, and he still won…this is good. He has never won 20 games, so what…he has won more games then some pitchers already in the HOF.
    I would vote for him, just because he has been very consistent throughout the years…and won a hell of a lot of games, without a 95/98mi fastball. 27/08??

    • Joey H

      yea good mention, its the fuckin steroid era! and the 27/08? thing is starting to get annoying.

      • DP

        Thank you! So annoying

        • Old Ranger

          My favorite pass-time. Don’t read it. 27/08??

  • Joey H

    if he can come back in the next two years and show that he has truely reinvented himself and be successful and put up 13+ win seasons then by all means. any pitcher who once was powerful and with age had his skills diminish and then to reinvents himself to be a fucking cy young candidate after not even expected to make the rotation, he definately deserves it. i would like a world championship for him as well if ya’ dont mind.

    • Steve

      Just the way he has reinvented himself this year has already been remarkable. You don’t see many pitchers at his age who appear to be washed up do what he did this year. There are VERY few historical parallels to what Moose has done this year already, if he were to continue his renaissance it might be unprecedented.

      Check out this Hardball Times piece laying it all out

      http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....naissance/

  • DP

    I think he will get to 300. Once guys get close to milestones they never seem to retire as long as possible. McGriff ended very poorly in Tampa, Randy would’ve retired before this year (though he’s doing well), Biggio sort of hung on to get to 3,000 hits, etc etc. While I don’t know these people personally, they can’t all be playing because they love the game or whatever. That said, I think worst case for Moose is 295 or so if his body forces him out in 2-3 down years (which I don’t think will happen). I say he gets to about 310, he is still trying to get a ring as well.

    • DP

      *for as long as possible.

    • nmc

      You have to remember though, that Moose has said specifically that he doesn’t believe in the guys who pay the last 2-4 years to reach that milestone, while putting up 7-15 seasons, and I believe him. If he’s done, I think he’ll retire, regardless of 300. And he should be in the hall anyway. I bet he finishes with more wins than Santana (even though wins are a completely worthless stat).

  • Mark B

    Let’s face it, the MLB HOF is a glorified beauty pageant that is almost solely based on stats these days. Moose needs to win 20 (hopefully this year) and get past 300 to get in……..too much competition if he retired today among the older guys that have fallen short, Jimmy Katt, Tommy John and Bert Blyleven and the new ones from his generation who have yet to retire, Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux, John Smoltz, Randy Johnson and possibly even Curt Schilling. I imagine the Rocket will be blackballed, but that could change.

    If Moose cannot get to 300, you know damn well the Boston writers and Schilling lovers will withhold votes for Moose to get their guy in.

  • jsbrendog

    I have no problem with the 278 its the 27/09 I have issues with lol

    go ynakees we can totally do this. as for moose, its atough one. if he makes it to 20 this yr it can only help him. someone made the great point that he hhas won all of his games in the al east against way back when very good yankee/sox/jays teams etc. that would be like 315 in say the nl west. maybe next yr he goes to the nl to pd his wins. even if he doesn’t, if he stays in the al east and contnually wins 12-20 games for 2 or more yrs, i’d sy he has a pretty goo shot

  • Adrian-Retire21

    Mussina is a boarderline hall of famer.He’s not a lock.In he’s Era Pedro Maritnez,Randy Johnson,John Smoltz,Tom Glavine,Maddux(I still think Maddux is overrated) and Curt Schilling(also not a first ballot) have pitched much better then Mussina.

    If Mussina pitched better in the post-season(Like Schilling) or had 300 wins then yes.But like Schilling he’s stats look great because he pitched for so long thats it.Even if Mussina gets 20 wins he needs to do that again to make it a sure thing.Mussina might if he waits like 15 years or more.

    • Steve

      “I still think Maddux is overrated”

      You can’t be serious. He only put up two of the greatest season in the history of Baseball in back to back seasons in 1994 and 1995. Posting a record of 16-6 with a 1.56 ERA and 19-2 with a 1.62 ERA. I guess you wanted him to hit 60 HRs as well. Oh, and BTW that was during the steroid era where scoring was way up all across the league.

      Are you familiar with ERA+? ERA thats been adjusted for the league, ballpark, and the era you played in? Take a look at the all time season leaders in ERA+

      http://www.baseball-reference......ason.shtml

      Greg Maddux is one of the greatest pitchers who has ever lived, and its not debatable.

      • RollingWave

        Gregg Maddux’s disscussion isn’t wether he’s a HOFer or not, it’s wether he’s a all time top 10, top 5 , or top 3 pitcher?

  • jsbrendog

    tat’s a good point I didn’t think of the far more dominant pitchers of the same era (pedro, randy, clemens hahah, maddux etc).

    for me I was talking the other day to my gf about how in awe of pedro I used to be woth the movement on his pitches. volquez kinda reminds me of a young pedro. and maddux’s mesmerizing 98 pitch complete games. when thinking about these pitchers moose is def 2nd tier and if he ever does get in it will take a long long time.

    as for schilling, he is a douche but he has been one of the most dominant pitchers in both leagues…but he’s such a damn douchebag

  • RollingWave

    difficult. it’s also about who he’s retiring with. it would seem likely that he retire within short succession of these guys.

    Roger Clemens
    Gregg Maddux
    Tom Glavine
    John Smoltz
    Curt Schilling
    Pedro Martinez

    tough company. any time any of these guys (with the exception of Schilling) shows up on the ballot with him it’s hard to justify that he deserve it more than them. and even with Schilling, he’s uber post season performances is a serious edge to Moose.

    • RollingWave

      btw, I’m not even including the fielders he’s retiring with. a TON of valid HOFers are retriing within these few years. which will be a serious issue. since it’s going to seriously spread out the votes. the classes Moose will be on the ballot with will be INSANELY strong. possibly the strongest since the very early days of the hall.

      • RustyJohn

        Clemens=’roids
        Maddux= Legit first ballot HOFer
        Glavine= 4 more years of service time than Mussina, fewer strikeouts than Moose, lower ERA+ than Moose and pitched in a weaker leage than Moose.
        Smoltz= borderline HOFer
        Schilling= not a HOFer- does everyone forget the first 10 years of his career where he sucked in all but one of them?
        Martinez= HOfer

        So, in my opinion which has no weight or effect on the world, I would vote for Maddux, Martinez, Moose, Glavine in that order and let Roger sweat it out a couple of years.

        • RollingWave

          “Schilling= not a HOFer- does everyone forget the first 10 years of his career where he sucked in all but one of them?

          Huh? so which of the following count as suck in his 10 first 10 year?

          1992: 150 ERA+ 226 IP
          1995: 116 ERA+ 118 IP (strike shorten)
          1996: 134 ERA+ 183 IP (9-10 record more reflect how bad the phillies were)
          1997: 143 ERA+ 254 IP
          1998: 134 ERA+ 268 IP(!!)

          He’s post season record is 11-2 133 IP 2.23 ERA. that’s insane no matter how you slice or dice it. ESPICALLY considering that he played a huge chunk of his career on non-contenders.

          It’s obviously easy to hate him as a Yankee fan due to 01 and 04 (and Boston in general) but seriously. the dude is awsome.

          Oh yeah, he’s also the ALL TIME LEADER IN Strike out to walk ratio (excluding 19th century guys)

          if we look at BR’s HOF monitor

          Schilling
          Black Ink: Pitching – 42 (33) (Average HOFer ? 40)
          Gray Ink: Pitching – 205 (34) (Average HOFer ? 185)
          HOF Standards: Pitching – 46.0 (48) (Average HOFer ? 50)
          HOF Monitor: Pitching – 171.0 (33) (Likely HOFer > 100)

          Moose
          Black Ink: Pitching – 16 (132) (Average HOFer ? 40)
          Gray Ink: Pitching – 244 (23) (Average HOFer ? 185)
          HOF Standards: Pitching – 52.0 (30) (Average HOFer ? 50)
          HOF Monitor: Pitching – 116.0 (72) (Likely HOFer > 100)

          they’re both solid candidates. but it’s completely irrational to think that Schilling isnt’ a HOFer while Moose is.

          • RustyJohn

            1988: 0 and 3, 14 IP, 40 ERA +, WHIP 2.182
            1989: 0 and 1, 8.7 IP, 61 ERA +, WHIP 1.5
            1990: 1 and 2, 46 IP, 151 ERA +. WHIP 1.24
            1991: 3 and 5, 75 IP, 91 ERA +, WHIP 1.56
            1992: 14 and 11, 226 IP, 150 ERA +, WHIP .99
            1993: 16 and 7, 235 IP, 99 ERA +, WHIP 1.24
            1994: 2 and 8, 82 IP, 96 ERA +, WHIP 1.4
            1995: 7 and 5, 116 IP, 118 ERA+, WHIP 1.05
            1996: 9 and 10, 183 IP, 134 ERA +, WHIP 1.09
            1997: 17 and 11, 254 IP, 143 ERA+, WHIP 1.04

            I didn’t realize that a criteria for the hall of fame was pitching a lot of innings or strike out to walk ratio. For his first ten years he had two excellent seasons- but he is the 1990s/2000s equivalent of Frank Tanana.

            • RustyJohn

              Unlike Schilling, who pitched a large chunk of his career in the powerhouse that was/is the NL West, Mussina has pitched his entire career in the AL East, and has only had two losing seasons in 18 years. THe first was his rookie season and the second was in 2000.

              • RollingWave

                Look at the overall records of the Phillies during those years plz.

                Look, during Moose’s career, he played 5 season on sub .500 teams. and only two of them were under .450

                During Curt’s 9 season on the Phillies, they were over .500 exactly once. they were under .450 *4* times. that’s excluding his RP days with Baltimore / Houston, and not counting the fact that he actually had some insanely bad luck in 2003 as well (going 8-9 in 24 starts despite being the top 5 best ERA+ pitcher in the league)

                Look, any pitcher’s job is to pitch as many quality and dominant inning as possible. they can’t control how good /bad their teammate is. it’s without a doubt that during their career Mike Mussina was almost always surronded by a powerhouse offense While Curt Schilling had numerous seasons surrended by a whole team of replacement level players or suffering horrific luck.

                Also, your letting current perceptions completly blowing away previous truths. the NL west was AWSOME during Curt’s time there. did you forget that…

                a. Pre-Humiditor Coors
                b. Bonds*

                Those two alone made a huge difference. not to meantion that Arizona is always a big hitter’s park itself

                Again, it makes no sense to think the Curt Schilling is not a hall of famer if you think Mike Mussina is (and I do)

                • nmc

                  I think your argument is valid, but wouldn’t you say that Schilling and Mussina had something to do with their team’s records?

                • RollingWave

                  Again, as I pointed out his worest season with the Philly he still had a 96 ERA+, most season he’s ERA+ was over 110 including a few 140 and 150+ seasons (Josh Beckett last year was 145)

                  in 93, he threw 150 ERA+ over 226 innings, CC Sabathia last year threw 241 IP of 143 ERA+, yet one went 14-11 and have people considering the season as suck while the other guy won the Cy Young.

    • RollingWave

      Damn, I also forgot Randy Johnson

  • NYFan50

    Mussina has been 2 outs and 1 out away from perfect games. If he’d gotten those 3 outs, he’d be a an absolute lock for the Hall. 3 outs. It wouldn’t even be a question. And it shouldn’t be that much of a question even without those outs.

    122 career ERA+. Almost 3000 strikeouts (21st all time). Almost 300 wins (which is a ridiculous stat but one the writers will look at). 3.5:1 K:BB (13th ALL TIME). He’s won 6 gold gloves (again, another silly stat, but the guy can field his position).

    He’s never won a Cy Young, but he finished in the top 6 eight times (and in 2003 he probably should have been up there). He’s never won 20 games, but he’s won 19 twice and 18 three times. And at LEAST one season he could have won 20 games but he had cruddy run support. In 2001, he won 17 games with all of 3.38 run support per game). In ’95 he won 19, and got only 3.78 runs of support. In 2000 he won just 11 with a 3.79 ERA, but received a league low 2.88 runs per game from the O’s.

    • Steve

      There’s room in the Hall for guys who were never dominating but sustained excellence over a long period of time, and he’s done that.

      People seem to confuse 1st ballot (which is a special distinction) with deserving to be there altogether. He’s not a 1st ballot HOFer, but he deserves to be elected at some point. He was one of the elite pitchers of his generation, and his numbers back that up.

  • http://RiverAve.Blues Joseph M

    He has a shot at the brass ring but it will probably take 7 or 8 ballots. The 100 plus games over five hundred is big, a twenty win season at this stage of his career would also help. Once he gets over 280 I think the evidence really tips his way. 300 would be a long shot, I’d like to see him get it but I don’t know if he can keep it going for another three seasons.

  • Adrian-Retire21

    Guess Mussina will get in but there are so many pitchers in he’s ERa that it will take him longer.Hopefully he gets 20 wins.He deserves it.

  • Steve

    One note on the 20 wins argument. We can all agree Pedro and Maddux are 1st ballot HOFers. Pedro and Madddux have only done it twice.

    We can all agree that if he never throws another pitch, Johan Santana has been a great pitcher, one of the best of his generation. He has only won 20 games once in his career. Obviously, for this to be the case it means that these pitchers have put up HOF seasons while not winning 20 games. So its not as important as some think.

    There are some old school voters who still think it matters, but over time there will be less and less of them voting.