Pettitte, shoulder done for the year

Hughes goes out in style
The great September tease

Andy Pettitte‘s 2008 season went out in style; he won the final regular season game at Yankee Stadium. Now, as Pettitte deals with shoulder tendinitis, the Yanks have shut him down for the season, and the rumblings about his career have started up again. Pettitte will play in 2009 for either the Yankees or no one. While I’m not sold on the idea, the team seems willing to have him back. The proverbial ball is in Andy’s court. If he wants to pitch, the Yanks will have him; if he wants to hang it up, he’ll have gone out with a win in the final game at the House that Ruth Built. That’s not a bad way to go.

Hughes goes out in style
The great September tease
  • Number 27

    If the yanks do have him back, what do you see as an acceptable salary? Both in terms of what he should be paid and what he would/will be paid.

    • http://salarydump.wordpress.com Joltin’ Joe

      While it would be a 50% pay cut, I think giving him $8MM would be plenty fair enough.

      • Andy In Sunny Daytona

        I’m sure Andy would say no problem to a 50% pay cut. I know I would be thrilled if my bosses asked me to take a 50% pay cut.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          2009 would be Andy’s 12th year in pinstripes.
          Give him $12M.

          • http://www.workwithpete.com Pete

            Yeah, I’d say he’s due at least a tad more than Pavano.

            • Chris C.

              “Yeah, I’d say he’s due at least a tad more than Pavano.”

              LMAO!!!! Right. The Yankees should find the biggest waste of money in their organization, and pay stinking, bad-shouldered, “not sure if I wanna play anymore” Andy Pettitte more than him!
              Sounds like a real sound business decision.

              • http://www.workwithpete.com Pete

                This isn’t Bernie we’re talking about, the guy can still pitch when he’s right.

                I’d give 80% of Andy Pettitte $20 million a year before Kei Igawa ever sees the clubhouse of the new Stadium.

                Unless he’s there to tidy up or something…

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                You know what is a really unsound business decision, Chris? Letting your personal grudges and resentments for a player’s past failures cloud your judgment when deciding on the best course of action for your future.

                • Chris C.

                  “You know what is a really unsound business decision, Chris? Letting your personal grudges and resentments for a player’s past failures cloud your judgment when deciding on the best course of action for your future.”

                  Oh, okay. So when a player doesn’t pitch that well, we shouldn’t allow that to come into play when deciding whether or not to bring him back. Gotcha. That’s real good GMing in bizarro world. At this stage, Pettitte isn’t even better than Alfredo Aceves, so why in the world would you pay him millions of dollars and hand him a roster spot? Because he’s a good soldier? C’mon, guy. This has been the Yankees problem. They have to stop clogging up roster spots with guys who just don’t have it anymore! I don’t hate Pettitte. He’s just not good enough to be in the Yankee rotation next year. The 5th spot in the rotation should be decided by the bevy of top notch Yankee rookies battling it out. If you hand that spot to Pettitte, it’s a total waste.
                  Can you even remember why Pettitte was here for so long in the first place? Because he got his shot to succeed, that’s why.

    • A.D.

      Just give him 16m again, you really going to battle on a 1 year deal?

      • Chris C.

        Thus, the reason the Yankees can’t make the playoffs. Pettitte isn’t even better than Aceves at this point in is career, so why the hell pay him big money, bring him back and give him a rotation spot?
        Patently stupid. Enough of bringing guys in who aren’t sure tey want to play anymore. That’s how Pettitte pitched this year…….like a guy who was pondering his future. So long, pal!

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          Mike Mussina says hello.

      • steve (different one)

        Just give him 16m again, you really going to battle on a 1 year deal?

        this doesn’t make any sense.

        i doubt Andy himself expects to make $16M again.

        if he wants to come back, it will be for less money. every party involved understands that.

        • Chris C.

          “if he wants to come back, it will be for less money. every party involved understands that”

          Dude, you’re just not getting this, are you? It’s not the money the Yankees are paying out that’s the problem. They can pay Andy Pettitte 30 mill a year and still have lobster dinners every night if they want to! It’s the fact that if you bring Andy Pettitte back, he takes up a valuable roster spot. THAT’S why the Yankees are playing golf this October. Too many over-the-hill guys taking up spots,a nd no roster flexibility.
          The Yankees don’t care what they pay people. The problem is, you can’t buy roster spots.

  • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

    Think about it this way:

    Assume we sign CC to be our #1, and Wanger comes back to be our #2. Joba is our #3, although he’ll likely have to be skipped in the rotation or have the beginning of his season delayed… and what you’re looking at is how to fill the 7-9 starts in Joba’s #3 spot at the beginning of the year, plus the 33 starts in the #4 and #5 holes.

    If we bring back Pavano and Pettitte on one year deals, we could go into 2009 with an opening day rotation of CC, Wang, Pettitte, Pavano, in the top four spots with Hughes, Aceves, and IPK battling it out for the fifth spot. Whichever two of the three don’t get a spot in the rotation become insurance for whomever struggles/gets hurt. And then, Joba joins the rotation sometime in May/June.

    Start with:
    CC
    Wang
    Pettitte
    Pavano
    Aceves

    End with:
    CC
    Wang
    Joba
    Hughes
    Pettitte/Pavano/Aceves/IPK

    … and deal whomever becomes superfluous in the event that all parties pitch effectively.

    And yes, you can sub in Moose for Pettitte. The more I think about it, with the emergence of Aceves and the option on Pavano, we really only need to retain one of those two between Moose and Pettitte. Not both.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      And here’s my thoughts on Joba, since he’s a part of this rotation question for 2008: Why not just delay the beginning of his year? Bring him to spring training, have him do drills and such with everybody else, but don’t build up his innings in the spring like everyone else; have him use spring training as straight experimentation: one inning at a time every couple of days, trying out new pitches and shit. Let March be nothing but expanding the repertoire.

      April and May becomes his spring training. He stays in Tampa and does his progressive innings building routine there, with a target of joining the big club on May 15th. Sort of like what Scott Kazmir did with TB this year. If he misses the first 6 weeks of the season, he’ll be on pace to make 25 starts with the club from mid-May through the end of the year, which is 150 innings (25×6).

      And we bridge the April/May gap at the back end of the rotation with combinations of Pavano/Pettitte/Moose/Aceves/Hughes/IPK.

      • Slugger27

        i like ur thought process… tricky situation no doubt… but out of curiousity, say all that works, and hes at 150+ innings at the end of the season and the yanks make the playoffs… u say the hell with it and have him start in the playoffs? move him back to the bullpen?

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          Yeah, have him start in the playoffs. It is what it is. The postseason would probably only add, say, 20 innings max to his total? It’s not ideal, but what else can you do?

          • Slugger27

            ya i totally agree… 150 is a good guideline, but with a WS berth on the line, roll the dice… u make an interesting suggestion

      • kenthadley

        this makes even more sense when you consider the fact that the #5 often gets bumped during April and May because of weather and schedule….

      • radnom

        Obviously this is a sensible thing to do, but imagine the media shitstorm the first time the bullpen blows a lead in April and Joba is chillen down in Tampa.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          Fuck them.

          The media is full of idiots. I don’t base my logical decision making process on the ravings of idiots, and neither should Brian Cashman. We’re not the Mets…

        • A.D.

          With the arms they have coming back in the pen, it hopefully won’t be an issue

          • Andy In Sunny Daytona

            I thought the way they treated Joba this year was alright. I would love Joba to start from the get go, but if they feel he can not hold up, then starting the season in the pen is fine. This way, he is ALWAYS helping the team. It only took him 3 starts to get stretched out to 90 pitches, so the transition really wasn’t that bad.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

              True, but I still wonder if making the transition they way it was done had an affect on his arm. I’d personally rather he stays on an every five days schedule, instead of he mix and match chances in the pen.

              Besides, with Mo, Bruney, Marte, Veras, Edwar, CokeFiend, Hummer, and Robertson, the 2009 pen doesn’t need Joba.

              Here’s another idea, however… what about pairing Joba and IPK up? Have each of them pitch 3 innings every fifth day. Unorthodox, sure, but it lets you ease both of them into the rotation while limiting their innings and exposure.

              • Andy In Sunny Daytona

                The Joba, IPK experiment sounds good. Keeps both of them on a nice schedule. They could alternate the starts. I like that idea a lot. They would have to have a nickname though.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                  GET MICHAEL KAY ON THE PHONE IMMEDIATELY!

                  Generation J-AY (for Joba and ipkAY)
                  Generation Stay (on regular rest)
                  Generation Hey (we’re developing our kids)
                  Generation Way (to stick to a plan)
                  Generation Gay (as in we’re happy to go with youth)
                  Miranda Rights

        • Chris C.

          “Obviously this is a sensible thing to do, but imagine the media shitstorm the first time the bullpen blows a lead in April and Joba is chillen down in Tampa.”

          Yeah, imagine?
          The Yankees shouldn’t make decisions bases on sensibility. They should make decisions based on what their Media Shitstorm-ometer tells them.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

            Ladies and Gentlemen, THE NEW YORK METS!

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

      I’d far rather bring back both Moose and Pettitte than bring back one and pick up Pavano’s option.

      • troy

        Not sure the projection systems could come up with a well-thought out projection for Pavano but it wouldn’t surprise me if it was more likely that Pavanao pitches better than Mussina, grealty due to age. Doesn’t feel right I know but it comes down to how you make these type of decisions.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

        So would I, Joe, provided that both Moose and Pettitte accept a one year deal. I figured Moose would want two or three years, which is why I left him out of my plan.

        • kenthadley

          if someone could give Tom Gordon 3 years with his arm falling off, then Mussina certainly will get a multi-year offer…..

      • Chris C.

        I’d far rather bring back both Moose and Pettitte than bring back one and pick up Pavano’s option.

        I’m just not getting this. The Yankees are on a quest to get younger, and you want them to bring back two guys who will be 41 and 37 respectively? Were you honestly that impressed with Andy Pettitte this season? I wasn’t.

    • http://www.workwithpete.com Pete

      >> The more I think about it, with the emergence of Aceves and the option on Pavano >>

      I don’t know if we’ve seen enough of Aceves yet, but on paper I agree. It’s just that letting *anyone* from our rotation walk is a little scary considering what we went through this season…

      • Chris C.

        “I don’t know if we’ve seen enough of Aceves yet, but on paper I agree. It’s just that letting *anyone* from our rotation walk is a little scary considering what we went through this season…”

        Yeah, real scary. It’s not like there’s any other options out there among the other 31 rosters and over 100 free agents in baseball. The guys in the Yankee rotation were all the best in the business. That’s why they’re playing golf on Monday.

    • Chris C.

      And yes, you can sub in Moose for Pettitte. The more I think about it, with the emergence of Aceves and the option on Pavano, we really only need to retain one of those two between Moose and Pettitte. Not both.

      That’s what I’ve been saying all along. Aceves is ready for the rotation. And if Hughes can stay healthy, he is too. And there will be alot of b-level starters out there available who would be better options than Pettitte as well. This mindset that in all of baseball, the Yankees will never find anyone to take the place of a .500 pitcher with a high ERA is ludicrous.

  • Slugger27

    i think most everyone here is assuming signing CC is a high probability, which i believe it isnt. the bottom line is having left handed pitchers is valuable, starting or relieving. if we cant get CC, and we wind up having a front 3 of wang, joba, hughes…. i think bringing pettitte back for 1/12 or something similar is a no brainer. if nothing else hes a quality innings eater, has experience

    having too much starting pitching depth is a problem that doesnt exist in this league, especially with all the rotation question the yanks will have facing them in 2009.

  • David Brown

    I am not in favor of bringing Petitte back, but the Petitte one year option is far superior to the concept of Pavano for ANY AMOUNT OF TIME or 4 years at ($15,000,000 per season for Ben Sheets). The only way it really makes sense, is you are using him as a stopgap to Brackman etc in 2010, and is if Tex is coming, and Moose is staying. A rotation of Wang, Joba, Moose, Petitte and Hughes is not half bad (Backed up by a SUPERIOR BULLPEN, which will be fortified even more with the addition with Melancon). But the offense MUST be UPGRADED. A return of Posada will help, but they need Tex for his bat (As well as his glove) (Particularly if Abreu and Giambi leave). Opinions?

  • colin

    I’d rather have Mussina than Pettitte next year

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      Most everybody would agree with you.

      Question is, are you willing to commit to paying Moose for 2010 and possibly 2011 in order to have him instead of Pettitte for 2009?

      Nothing exists in a vacuum.

      • Illustrious

        Question is, would Mussina even want a multi-year deal? All indications point to him being satisfied with a one-year deal, at least for 2009.

        • steve (different one)

          yeah, i’m starting to get that vibe. that Moose, if he comes back at all, will be happy to go year to year.

          that makes the decision much easier.

          • kenthadley

            not once teams like Philly offer him 2-3 years……

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

              Bingo.

              • Andy In Sunny Daytona

                Offer both of them arbitration. Hope they accept it, if they don’t turn those picks into two more Joba’s. Then we can have a rotation in 2010 of Joba1, Joba2, Joba3, Brackman, Ponson.
                Or…we could clone Joba every 5 years, sign Joba and all of his clones to a lifetime contract, and we could have a constant stream of Joba’s forever. We could do the same with AJax, since he will be the next great Yankee.
                Imagine a rotation of Joba’s, a bullpen full of Joba’s and an entire line-up of Ajaxes. We could clone Little G for speed! Man this could be great. I think I’m on to something.

                • Andy In Sunny Daytona

                  Ok, first we have to get “The Human Cloning Ban and Stem Cell Research Protection Act of 2003” (S. 303), overturned. I have a plan for this.
                  The Yankees back Wyoming State Rep. Steve Harshman in a run for one of the U.S. Senate seats in Wyoming. Once he’s elected, we can use him to lobby for overturning this silly law. He can sponsor Senate Bill “Operation Joba Staff Act of 2010” (S. 62). Then its just a matter of finding some House of Representatives to sponsor a similar House Bill, then having Barack sign it into law.
                  Foolproof.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

                  Andy, those two paragraphs just validated VORP, Win Shares, RC/27, and every other sabermetricians wildest dreams.

                  Imagine being able to actually tell, with empirical evidence, exactly how many games a team full of Giambis really would win!

                  Bill James just splooged all over himself…

              • http://www.workwithpete.com Pete

                Although you still have to take into account the ‘family factor’ — a lot of guys don’t want to uproot everything they know just for a paycheck.

                Especially when they’re thisclose to retiring anyway. IMO Moose gets two more years from the Yanks at a slight discount and he calls it a career at the end of ’10.

                The Pettitte situation might resolve itself depending on who we sign — if we do get CC, the phone calls from Cashman at Thanksgiving & Christmas might not come.

                If they even come from Cashman, which is a whole other ball of snot.

  • Axl

    Hang them up…we’re going to have 2 pitchers who can only pitch half the season??? Joba and Pettitte??

    What’s the point?!?

    I love Andy but there is no better way to hang them up than what he did closing out the Stadium…

    • troy

      What about hanging them up after closing out the Dodgers in the World Series at Yankee Stadium in 2009?

    • A.D.

      Well if that was actually the case it would be perfect, Pettite to begin, Joba to end. But I think Pettite will be good for 200 innings next year, always nice to have a veteran lefty in the rotation.

  • David Brown

    Mussina is no moron (He is a STANFORD GRAD), he knows the only way that he makes the Hall Of Fame, is to get to 300 wins, and the Yankees offer the best opportunity for that (Because of their Bullpen, Mariano etc), so he will be back (I predict ONE and a Mutual option), Another factor in this, is he knows that if he can get into the mid 280s by the end of 2009, the Yankees will pick up that option (Because he might be the last pitcher EVER to get to 300 wins, there are major historical and marketing elements to it (Such as a retired number, going into Cooperstown as a Yankee etc. That is what is being done with Alex Rodriguez)).
    There is NO DOUBT that the Yankees would be willing to commit to Moose for tWO YEARS under those circumstances.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

      Okay, perhaps…

      And perhaps the Phillies, who are about to win the NL East for the second year in a row (with the dynamite young talent of Howard, Utley, Rollins, Victorino, Hamels, Myers, and Lidge) call up Mike after we offer that one-plus-a-mutual-option deal and say, “Mike, we’re prepared to give you 30M guaranteed over the next three years to come help get us over the hump.”

      This Stanford grad (who’s smart enough, btw, to know that the game has changed and that he can get into the hall without 300 wins, and who knows that the hall, and not the player, decides what cap he wears) is going to pick two years on a Yankee team in transition over three years on a Phillies team on the rise?

      • steve (different one)

        tommie, i usually agree with almost everything you write.

        but in this case, i have to disagree. i think Moose comes back to the yankees on a 1 year deal (at most 1 + option) without ever testing the market.

        remember the yankees have an exclusive 2 week negotiating window.

        he’s basically already come out and said if he pitches next year, he REALLY wants it to be for the Yankees.

        i really think Moose is a crotchety old bastard who will have little desire to change teams, leagues, etc. if he doesn’t have to.

        i say he’ll be back or he’ll retire.

        that’s my take. if i am wrong, i will change my handle to “steve (tommiesmithjohncarlos’ bitch)” for a week.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos

          You make good points.

          I’m just skeptical, is all. I think Moose is a smart man who, although he likes it here and there’s some mutual loyalty involved, will probably at least see if there’s some sniffs out there on the market.

          But Moose doing a one and one here wouldn’t shock me. Just like Moose doing a three year elsewhere wouldn’t shock me.

          I guess I’d call it a 50/50 shot. You and David have been persuasive.