Oct
24

Davidoff: Moose probably done

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While Buster Olney thinks Mike Mussina will be in pinstripes in 2009, Ken Davidoff isn’t so sure. The Newsday scribe believes that the Moose is done for his career.

At this point, it would be a shocker if Mike Mussina did not retire. For years, Mussina has been determined to end his career on his terms, rather than being told he’s not wanted any longer. To walk away after his first career 20-win season, when he could actually get offers from all over the place…the only way it could’ve ended better for Mussina would’ve been a Yankees World Series victory to go along with his personal success.

You can expect a Yankee Stadium farewell news conference shortly after the conclusion of the World Series. I’ll leave myself one percent room for error. But no one who knows Mussina well thinks he’ll pitch again.

If this is true — and no one really has any way of knowing until Mike Mussina gets on stage and announces it himself — it will leave a glaring 20-win hole in the Yankee rotation. Mussina this year showed that he could adapt to age. He converted himself from a fastball pitcher into a Jamie Moyer type and enjoyed one of his best seasons ever.

Now, if Moose were to hang it up, the Yanks would have just Chien-Ming Wang, Joba Chamberlain and Andy Pettitte as definite members of the rotation in 2009. Without Moose to anchor the back end, the team will have to fill from a limited pool of free agents or internally from some combination of Phil Hughes, Al Aceves, Ian Kennedy or any other body that happens to be around.

Furthermore, I have more faith in Mussina going forward than I do in Pettitte, but the point may be moot. Over the last few years, Mussina has watched as well-respected hurlers — Roger Clemens, David Wells, Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling — have gone out amidst relatively poor seasons and injuries. He’d rather leave on top, and if that’s his choice, I’ll applaud him for it. For the sake of the Yanks, though, I hope he’s not quite ready to hang it up yet.

Categories : Pitching

100 Comments»

  1. CountryClub says:

    Everyone can have their opinion, but I dont see why a lot of people think Moose is a surer bet than Pettitte. For the past decade or so, Pettite has been the better pitcher (and that includes 2007). He has a bad half of a year and all of a sudden people think he’s done. I’m not sold on the fact that Mussina can come close to repeating 2008′s perfomance. I’d be OK with both coming back on 1 year deals. But if it has to be one or the other…I’ll take Pettitte.

    • Steve S says:

      I think Pettitte has been more consistent over the past five years but I don’t know about the past decade. I doubt Mussina can repeat this past year and would probably take a step back. I think its a wash between the two and I think Pettitte is a better teammate and might be the better bet to have a bounce back type of year.

    • steve (different one) says:

      For the past decade or so, Pettite has been the better pitcher (and that includes 2007).

      this isn’t true.

      i understand your point, but you really needed to say something like “for the last 5 years”.

      if you go back 10 years, Moose has been the better pitcher.

      more innings with a lower ERA. all in the AL.

      • Steve S says:

        I know. I know. I may just have a thought write it down and just email it to you.

      • Chris C. says:

        I think when you’re talking about pitchers in their late 30′s, “the last 5 years” doesn’t really matter. You need to judge based on the previous year. That’s not to say Pettitte can’t pop back, but it’s less likely as you entire your late 30′s. He may have to change his approach like Mussina did.

        I really feel that Mussina has found a new way to be successfull with what he has left. I think he’s figured some things out that were no longer working for him in 2007.
        I don’t know if you can say the same thing about Pettitte. There were games late in the season that the YAnkees absolutely needed, and I was sure Pettitte would come up big for them……but he didn’t.

        When a guy who is usually a great 2nd half pitcher does lousy in the 2nd half, that’s a bit of a red flag on bringing him back.

        • Steve S says:

          Yeah thats true but you also have to believe that there can be precipitous drop off as well (which applies to both here). Looking at the previous year might be a bit myopic considering Mussina in 2007 managed an OPS+ of 87, based on that thought process Mussina should have been released prior to this year. While Pettitte, in what was a down year for him, was almost a league average pitcher. And even in his good year Mussina didnt average over six innings a start while Pettitte did in his down year. These two guys arent being brought back as top of the rotation guys, they are meant to fill out the middle and back end to provide innings and protection for Joba and potentially Hughes. If I had to bet on who would fill that role better its a toss up but I might give the slight edge to Pettitte. And I think the change in style while refreshing might not be something that can sustain longevity, especially in the AL East. Its one thing over the course of a season, its another of the course of a two.

        • When a guy who is usually a great 2nd half pitcher does lousy in the 2nd half, that’s a bit of a red flag on bringing him back.

          HGH withdrawal symptoms say hello.

    • Greg C says:

      1999 4.70 3.50
      2000 4.35 3.79
      2001 3.99 3.15
      2002 3.27 4.05
      2003 4.02 3.40
      2004 3.90 NL 4.59
      2005 2.39 NL 4.41
      2006 4.20 3.51
      2007 4.05 5.15
      2008 4.54 3.37

      In 14 seasons Andy has had an ERA over 4.00 8 times, or over half the time. He had one exceptional year in the NL 3 years ago. His last year in Houston he was basically Average, which entitles him to $16 mil a year in NYY. He was already mostly a pedestrian starter several years ago. I do not think he had 1/2 a bad year. He has a long stretch of mediocrity. I think he can bounce back to his consistent mediocrity ( 4.00ish ERA, slightly over .500 depending on run support,etc). He would work as a bottom on the rotation starter for sure. But he isnt a high 8 figure ace.

      Andy is Old reliable. He has been pretty consistent, but his career comes down to 4 really good seasons with only 2 of those in the last decade.

      Mussina, who is 4 years older, has only had 1 really bad year and 3 that were right around average ( a down year for him). he has even won 152 games in the last decade despite having run support issues in his better years and having 4 down years. Mussina’s career postseason is more impressive as well if you take run support of the equation.

  2. Steve S says:

    I wonder how far down the pipe Kennedy is now. He is the only one of the “big three” that accumulated a proper amount of innings this past year. If he has a lights out spring training like he this spring do they give him the 5th spot over Hughes because of the innings concerns? Or is Kennedy, regardless of performance, ticketed for Scranton? He is very difficult to evaluate because he is clearly capable of dominating at AAA.

    • steve (different one) says:

      it is my opinion that he is ticketed for Scranton outside of throwing 6 straight no-hitters in ST.

      i believe Hughes is in AZ to get the innings to prepare him for the rotation IF needed.

      i think the Yankees would like them to both start in AAA, but Moose retiring could change that.

      of course, it is also very possible that Hughes is traded this winter.

      i am not advocating this, but it’s possible.

      • Steve S says:

        I figured the same way but what doesn’t make sense to me assuming they only bring in Pettitte and one free agent starter, is how do they get through the year with Phil and Joba in the rotation?

        One thing I wish they would contemplate is using Hughes in the bullpen but not as the late inning one inning guy. Use him like the Twins used Liriano and Santana. Have him go out there and build up arm strength and throw three innings at a time. Especially if he starts at a AAA and is dominating. And i say that knowing the concern of the transition but I just think the problem is the extreme change in roles. If the guy is capable of throwing 50 pitches in an outing every three or four days then its not as much of a strain to go to 100 every five.

      • Chris C. says:

        “of course, it is also very possible that Hughes is traded this winter.”

        I don’t think they will, for one major reason……….if Cashman wouldn’t include him in the Santana deal, how would he justify dealing him for anyone else. Yeah, I know there was money involved with Santana, but that is not how Cashman sold his turning down the deal.

    • Chris C. says:

      I think Kennedy should be given another chance at the back of the rotation, just like Hughes, Aceves, and even Dan Geise.
      You don’t here much about Geise, but I don’t see what’s not to like about every start he gave the Yankees last year……except maybe one.

      • Bo says:

        Would it really kill them to actually have some depth at AAA in case of injury or poor performance??

        Why would they sell low on Kennedy now anyway?

      • Steve S says:

        he is journey man 30 year old who barely ever saw the majors. He fits nicely as the long man but to go into a season relying on him as a starter seems a little irresponsible. he has Aaron Small written all over him.

        • Chris C. says:

          Some guys just develope late.

          I would have no problem giving Dan Geise a spot in the rotation if he earns it. And if he falters after a while, big deal……you replace him with someone else. It would be the 5th spot in the rotation anyway, and it’s not like you’d be putting a guy who makes 8 figures on the bench.

          The way the Yankees staff looked this past year, I wouled not discriminate against ANYBODY due to age or lack of experience.

          I’m more leary of actually GIVING guys rotation spots, then making them earn it. And you know Pettitte aint coming to camp unless he’s guarenteed a spot.

          • Steve S says:

            Were going to have to agree to disagree if your trying to say that somehow Dan Giese has as much merit or right to earn a spot as Andy Pettitte. Dan Giese had a nice season last year but if he were to start 33 games next year for the Yankees we would have huge issues. Andy Pettitte did have a bad season, but it didnt merit taking away his spot in the rotation, and in favor of Dan Geise.

            And I cant recall anybody developing into a decent starter at the age of 31 who prior to this year had appeared in 8 major league games TOTAL and all of them the year before. Lets keep things in perspective he made 20 appearances last year and only threw 43 innings. Andy pettitte is still a better pitcher than Dan Giese.

            • I don’t think he’s saying that Giese and Pettitte should both be equal mainstays in the rotation, just that having Dan Giese in there isn’t the worst thing in the world.

              But yes, the odds of him being good for the whole year are slim. The league will continue to figure him out.

              Giese is much better than Aaron Small, though, IMO. Better stuff.

            • Chris C. says:

              “Were going to have to agree to disagree if your trying to say that somehow Dan Giese has as much merit or right to earn a spot as Andy Pettitte.”

              I guess we will, and that’s fine. But I’d like to put guys in the rotation who give the Yankees the best chance to win, and I don’t know how much merit you want to give a guy who will be 37 years old and just posted an ERA of 4.50.

              The only guys I feel have the merit to be given spots in the rotation are Wang, Chamberlain, and Mussina.
              I don’t think Pettitte pitched himself into being guarenteed anything for next year.
              I think at this point, the confidence people have in Pettitte based on past years is now owtweighed by the subpar production he actually gives you.

              • Steve S says:

                I could see if Dan Giese had pitched a little more but he really had a tiny impact. You saw him for 43 innings. And like I said Pettitte’s season turned in August. He did 200 innings win 14 games and pitch to 4.5 ERA in the AL east. He was a disappointment considering he was the “number 2″ but I dont know how he loses a spot in the rotation to Dan Giese who really pitched okay but he wasn’t even that good to say he deserves a shot over Andy Pettitte. Even if he duplicates last season he is a lock as the fourth of fifth best starter on this team.

                And your argument has glaring hole in it. Had the Yankees believed that, then Mike Mussina would be on the scrap heap at this point. Because by the end of 2007 he had actually lost his rotation spot.

                I’m mean really, I could understand the skepticism about Pettitte but Dan Giese is really scraping the bottom of the barell.

                And Giese at his best is Rasner, you dont turn 31 never get called up and then all of a sudden put it all together.

        • Chris C. says:

          This is the same organization that relied on Igawa as a starter entering a season.
          Geise’s age or lack of experience doesn’t bother me. In fact, he’s probably more mature than you’d want your younger guys to be.

          Remember, Jamie Moyer wasn’t anything special before he was 30.
          In fact, his career really took off in his mid-thirties.

          • Steve S says:

            Jamie Moyer had two two hundred innings seasons before the age of 30 and managed to have a 3.48 ERA at the age of 25 in one those seasons. I like Dan Giese but come on, really, of course he is more mature he is 31 years old.

            Dan Giese was in the minors for almost ten years. Do you really think that 29 other teams really missed it on him?

            And I really dont understand the Igawa argument So they made one bad decision so its okay to make another?

            • Chris C. says:

              “Dan Giese was in the minors for almost ten years. Do you really think that 29 other teams really missed it on him?”

              I think 29 other teams would have liked him on their staff or in their bullpen last year. Think the Mets could have used him? All I’m saying is that Dan Geise should have a shot at making the rotation. I don’t think that is unreasonable. And I also do not think Andy Pettitte hasearnedan automatic spot in the rotation. I just don’t.
              I don’t care how many teams missed on Dan Geise. The league is filled with guys who have been “missed” by teams. And it is actually possible that a guy can turn 30 and figure things out that he couldn’t when he was younger. They all shouldn’t be compared to Aaron Small.

              “And I really dont understand the Igawa argument So they made one bad decision so its okay to make another?

              No. Igawa was an example of a guy who was HANDED a rotation spot without really earning it, based on the amount of money the team was paying him.

              • Steve S says:

                So hopefully I can stop talking about Dan Geise (who in reality probably wont be on the team by June).

                If your saying Dan Giese should have a shot at the 5th spot in the rotation, completely agreed. If your saying that the Yankees should sign Andy Pettitte and then say that Pettitte, Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves should all be on equal footing for a spot in the rotation thats insane. There is nothing that Dan Giese has ever done that would indicate that over the course of 200 innings and 33 starts he could win 14 games and have a 4.5 ERA, which is what Andy Pettitte did in what you consider a year where he didnt earn a spot in the rotation.

                Im sorry, I can agree that you should look at the year before as an indicator but not as the sole evidence of how a pitcher will perform. And by the way, Darrel Rasner last year managed to pull together 25 innings in 4 starts in May where he had a 1.80 ERA. Lets say the Yankees had Hughes back at that point and Rasner would have either been sent down or sent the bullpen. Had he not been exposed, like he was in June and July, then you would advocate him being on equal footing as Andy Pettitte?

                And you keep on talking about these 30 year olds, you mentioned one- Jamie Moyer, who is nothing like Dan Giese, Moyer was a major leaguer by the time he was 22 years old. Find me the guy who never showed up in the major leagues until he was thirty and then became a member of a rotation for an extended period of time. There are plenty of guys who can string together a good 43 innings. And Geise wasnt even that dominant in those 43 innings. he was good but he wasnt good enough and Andy wasnt bad enough to say they come in the same level.

                Sometimes you have to look beyond August and September.

                • Chris C. says:

                  “If your saying that the Yankees should sign Andy Pettitte and then say that Pettitte, Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves should all be on equal footing for a spot in the rotation thats insane.”

                  Doesn’t matter. Pettitte won’t sign under those conditions anyway.
                  But let’s just say that the Yankees have 4 rotation spots taken, and the 5th spot is between Pettitte, Hughes, and Aceves.

                  You think Pettitte’s 2008 season automatically merits him that spot? Sorry, but I disagree.
                  That’s all I’m saying.

                • Chris C. says:

                  I’ll give you Giese.

                  But Hughes and Aceves should have the opportunity to supplant Petitte for a spot. I don’t care that they never threw 200 innings in a season. Neither has Chamberlain.

                • Steve S says:

                  At least you have me Dan Giese, I was starting to think you were his agent.

          • steve (different one) says:

            everything starts at the top and flows down.

            if the Yankees sign CC Sabathia, that takes a TON of pressure off the back half of the rotation if you also make the assumption that Wang is good for 200 innings.

            even in a “bad” year, Pettitte threw 200 innings. it is reasonable, though not certain of course, to pencil Andy in for close to 200 innings.

            if the Yankees can get 650 innings from those 3 guys, they will be in excellent shape.

            the problem this year was losing all of those INNINGS from Wang and Hughes.

            Hughes (and Kennedy) didn’t have to be great this year, they just needed to throw 100-125 innings with an ERA around 5.

            if that happens and Wang stays healthy, their rotation would have been fine.

            you can mix and match the back end of your rotation to get those last 200-300 innings. what you can’t do is mix and match the MIDDLE of your rotation, which is what happened when Wang and Joba got hurt.

            by signing a genuine, bona-fide horse for the top of their rotation, it pushes everyone down a spot and pushes the Rasners and Ponsons to AAA, where they should be.

            Sabathia/Wang/Joba/Pettitte/Hughes

            if Moose comes back, Hughes goes to AAA.

            that’s why i believe the Yankees will outbid everyone for Sabathia by a wide margin.

          • You see, Chris, you keep saying smarmy shit like this and this is why people pile on you.

            “This is the same organization that relied on Igawa as a starter entering a season.”

            To what season are you referring? 2007, when Igawa was in our opening day rotation… mere months after the very offseason that we signed him to a contract? Are you really advocating that the 2007 Yankees, who had a hole in their rotation, shouldn’t have put in the free agent we had JUST signed into that hole, a free agent about whom nobody on earth had any empirical evidence up to that point indicating that he wouldn’t be successful?
            Or 2008, when he WASN’T in our opening day rotation? Where he was exiled to Scranton and only came up as an emergency plan “J”?

            You keep going over the top in efforts to prop up your arguments with shit that either is disingenuous or flat out wrong, and you undermine people’s ability to take you seriously. You just opened your comment about Giese/Pettitte/Mussina with a backhanded insult designed to make someone else (the Yankee organization) seem dumb in effort to make you seem smart, but you had to do it in a totally bullshit way.

            Just say what you want to say without muddying the waters with your hackneyed preconceived agenda that nobody but you is smart enough to see the “truth”.

            • Chris C. says:

              You missed the point. That’s the second time today you delivered a wise-ass response to my post, instead of just asking me to clarify.

              I was not advocating that the 2007 Yankees SHOULDN’T HAVE PUT Igawa into the rotation. They had no choice…..they just laid out about 30 mill, so they had to!
              I was mentioning him in reference to the fact that he had no past history as a major league baseball starter, and he was guarenteed a spot in the rotation.
              Probably not the best example in that case, but certainly not worth your response.

              And you’re right………I shouldn’t make the Yankees “seem dumb” for signing that guy. I shoudln’t try to influence people into thinking that was a dumb signing.

              • Chris, I’m only a wise-ass in response to your wise-assery.

                • Chris C. says:

                  Really?

                  Well, explain how I was a wise ass by posting Humberto Sanchez’ pitching line, which by the way, had already been posted……..or citing Igawa as a bad signing?

                  Unless you’re Brian Cashman, why the hell are you so personally offended? Are you one of those people who refers to the Yankees as “we”?

                • You were being a wise-ass in citing Humberto’s pitching line because you couldn’t resist an opportunity, no matter how little the subject matter at hand was related to your comment, to pour water on anything related to a Yankee prospect. Steve and I were having a back and forth about the 2009 rotation, mainly discussing Pettitte, Mussina, CC, and the need or lack thereof of bringing in another free agent pitcher. In that convo, I mentioned Humberto Sanchez, totally in passing. The conversation, in other words, was 0.01% about Humberto Sanchez and 99.99% about other people. And yet, you immediately then leap into the argument to say, “Hey, Humberto Sanchez got rocked in a winter-league game yesterday, that was pretty brutal, eh? You can’t pitch much worse than that!!!” To which, yeah, you’re right. Nobody gives a shit, though, except apparently you. Most of the rest of us know that that Humberto game is a blip on the radar. It affected you (or, rather, it dovetailed with your pre-existing agenda) to the point that you just HAD to bring it up here, even though it was already commented on in another thread.

                  And, you were being a wise-ass about “citing Igawa as a bad signing” because you WEREN’T citing Igawa as a bad signing. You were calling into question the Yankees intelligence in “guaranteeing a rotation spot” to a guy they’d just signed. You weren’t discussing the merits of signing Kei Igawa or not, which is a valid discussion. No, you were calling the team fools for committing the apparently mortal sin of not signing, like 3 or 4 other free agent pitchers so that the newly acquired Igawa would somehow have a “competition” for a spot in the rotation that he’d have to “earn”, a concept so foreign from how real baseball operates that it’s utterly absurd. You were taking the organization to task for not constantly hedging every single one of their bets so that failure never occurs, a conditionality that would require us to have like a $400M payroll annually. AND, in the ultimate wise-ass fashion, the Igawa comment had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH ANYTHING THAT ANYONE WAS SAYING, NOT EVEN YOU. You just threw it in there at the beginning of your conversation, like a stupid little before-dinner aperitif of inanity.

                  Me: So, should we bring Pettitte back or not?
                  You: Hey, Brian Cashman’s a dumbass for not having 5 backup plans in case Kei Igawa didn’t work. But to answer your question, no, we shouldn’t bring Pettitte back.

                  You’re like Sarah Palin. You’re so programmed into your “The Yankee Front Office are a bunch of morons and all their decisions suck” talking point that every convo becomes nothing but an opening for you to try and shoehorn in your negative laughtrack of mock disgust and (ironically) non sequiturs. Perhaps I should cede that part of my name to you.

                  Why am I offended? I just get tired of people with an agenda, especially if it’s utterly defeatist with no constructive value or critical thought. You clearly fall in that category.

                • Steve S says:

                  I don’t even know if its that organized. I saw you guys arguing with this guy yesterday. And it was getting me frustrated.

                  I think its a writing style, Chris C doesn’t realize he comes off extremely condescending when he concedes a point but then throws in a completely irrelevant point or transaction to try and connect it or justify a point that has no merit. Its so irrational that Im not sure its even intentional.

                  For example:

                  Chris C:
                  1. Andy Pettitte shouldnt be given a rotation spot because of his performance in 2008
                  2. Dan Giese deserves the same opportunity for that spot.
                  3. Thirty year old minor leaguers develop late- eg Jamie Moyer.

                  Steve S:
                  1. Dan Giese isnt that good and only showed average ability in a small sample size.
                  2. Andy Pettitte had a good enough season to be the number 4 in the rotation.
                  3. Jamie Moyer was in the majors by the time he was 23.

                  Chris C:
                  1. Andy Pettitte was bad last year.
                  2. I want the yankees to play the players that give them the best shot to win.
                  3. Thats why Kei Igawa got a spot in the rotation.

                  Steve S:

                  ???????

                  Chris C:

                  Ill give you Dan Giese but Aceves and Hughes should get an equal shot with Pettitte because Joba Chamberlain was really good last year.

                  Steve:

                  ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

  3. RichYF says:

    I saw Moose pitch this year. My buddy and I got a day game vs. the Twins early in the season and we both DREADED that it would be Moose. Simultaneously, we both KNEW it would be him. I told him early on, “It doesn’t matter when the game is, it’s going to be Moose.” It was after the ASB and I’m pretty sure it was the #1/2 slot in the rotation. We were hoping it was Joba or Andy. It was Moose.

    His line: 8IP, 7Ks, 0 runs. Probably one of his best starts of the season.

    We had a blast. We couldn’t have been happier to watch Moose as he dazzled the Twins. I would be upset if Moose wasn’t coming back, but I too would applaud his career and his ability to leave while he’s on top of his game.

  4. Reggie C. says:

    Argh … too early on a Friday to read bad news.

  5. Yank Crank 20 says:

    I also think the Moose over Pettitte talk is too much. It’s very easy to say that now because Moose essentially had a career year and Pettitte had his worst full-season of his career, but going into 2009 we can safely say two things: Moose can’t possibly be as good as he was in 08, and Pettitte can’t possibly be as bad as he was in 08. I understand we don’t know that for sure, but chances are Pettitte’s year was sidetracked due to a lack of training during the offseason because of off-field issues and Moose simply just had one of those years where everything went right. Pettitte is still a very valuable pitcher who put up over 200 IP again so I wouldn’t be heartbroken if we lost Moose but still kept Pettitte.

    • Chris C. says:

      “Moose can’t possibly be as good as he was in 08, and Pettitte can’t possibly be as bad as he was in 08.”

      Yeah, but Moose was ALOT better than Pettitte this year. It wasn’t even close. He was more than a full earned run better. So even if Moose falls off a bit, and Pettitte improves, Mussina would probably still be better.

      “Pettitte is still a very valuable pitcher who put up over 200 IP again so I wouldn’t be heartbroken if we lost Moose but still kept Pettitte”

      Honestly, I’m not even sure that Pettitte is a better option than Aceves, Hughes, or Dan Geise. The problem with bringing Pettitte back, is that you have to guarentee him a spot in the rotation. I don’t tink he’ll return if he has to earn it. So if he comes back, a guy who may be better could be sent to the bullpen or Scranton.

      • I dunno, I’m not as pessimistic on Pettitte as you. I chalk a lot of Pettitte’s 2008 to not having a good offseason with the Clemens circus, and probably adjusting to going a full year without the benefit of his chemical enhancements. Remember, Giambi scuffled for a year until he got back in a rhythm.

        Pettitte is just as smart as Mussina, he could figure out how to use his stuff and change speeds and keep hitters off balance. I think he’ll hold up pretty well. And remember, with CC, Wang, and Joba, he only has to be our #4. 200 innings of a 4.25 ERA is probably fine for him, and he can probably do that.

      • Yank Crank 20 says:

        “Honestly, I’m not even sure that Pettitte is a better option than Aceves, Hughes, or Dan Geise.”

        Don’t forget that everyone felt that way about Mussina after 2007 when he was removed from the rotation for having an awful year. Everyone wanted Hughes or Kennedy to get his spot. Then what happened in 2008?

        Health has a lot to do with success. Pettitte was under-trained and had a bum shoulder all year. I am going to look for great things from Andy this year and forget that a Yankee fan actually said they’d prefer Aceves, Hughes or Geise over Andy Pettitte.

        • Chris C. says:

          “Don’t forget that everyone felt that way about Mussina after 2007 when he was removed from the rotation for having an awful year. Everyone wanted Hughes or Kennedy to get his spot. Then what happened in 2008?”

          What Mussina did in 2008 is about as rare a case as you will ever see. That is more the exception than the rule.

          “Health has a lot to do with success. Pettitte was under-trained and had a bum shoulder all year.”

          I hope you’re right.

          “I am going to look for great things from Andy this year and forget that a Yankee fan actually said they’d prefer Aceves, Hughes or Geise over Andy Pettitte.”

          C’mon, man. I never said that. I said I’m not sure he’s a better option than all of those guys. And I’m not. What I PREFER, is the guy who gives the Yankees the best chance to win. It is certainly not out of the realm of possibility that one of the Yankee rookies may give the Yankees a better chance at winning ballgames than Andy Pettitte.
          This does happen in many organizations. Mainstays are always getting supplanted.

          • Steve S says:

            So how does Andy earn it? Im confused at what your saying. Are you saying that Andy pettitte needs to be better than those three guys in spring training in order to stay in the rotation?

            • Chris C. says:

              I think Pettitte has to at least look decent in Spring training. If both Hughes and Aceves are blowing people away though, how do you tell one of them that they don’t get a spot to a guy who just had a subpar season?

              But yeah, Pettitte does get the benefit of not having to be better than them. But he can’t look like crap and get a spot either.

              I realize Spring training isn’t the best test, but it is someshat of a barometer of how a guy will look enering the season.

              None of this matters, because it won’t be a competition anyway. If they sign Pettitte, he’s in the rotation.

              • Steve S says:

                And by the way, upon looking at the numbers (not to beat a dead horse). Dan Giese in his first 23 innings (the first half) had a 2.76 ERA and then in the second half he managed a 4.50 ERA in his last 23 innings.

                Im dont think anyone here is opposed to saying maybe we can do better than Andy Pettitte or we have to be skeptical, but when you look internally and come up with Geise, thats not being realistic. Its not as if someone is saying you should sign Pettitte so we can send Joba back to the bullpen.

                And the comparison came up in the context of Mike Mussina who is proof positive that a guy can rebound in his late 30′s. Moose did it twice- Look at his 2005 season (age 36) – OPS+ of 96 and then his 2006 (age 37) season OPS+ of 129.

  6. A.D. says:

    Moose still hasn’t won that ring… has to be tempting to try.

    • Chris C. says:

      That’s true. But he’s a smart man. If he takes an objective look at the way the division now stacks up, he’s certainly not going to like the Yankees chances more than he may have in the previous years.

      • A.D. says:

        True, but they certainly are in playoff contention

        • Chris C. says:

          Yeah……..and I would include the Blue Jays as well as a team on the rise, even though they’re probably losing Burnett. After Halliday, they some very good young starters (Marcum, Litsch, McGowan, Purcey) who could really step it up this coming season.

          Marcum was pitching great before he got injured. He was actually better than Burnett.

  7. radnom says:

    If the whole Brett Favre saga taught me anything its that the media LOVES to speculate on what is going on in a player’s head, but it really doesn’t mean shit.

    Following this story is just masturbation until Moose finally makes an announcement. Wake me up when that happens.

  8. Bo says:

    Mussina? The same guy who everyone thought would be cut by May? The same guy who lost his spot in 2007? Remember that Andy is younger and left handed.

    And no pitcher has ever retired off a 20 win season.

  9. Relaunch says:

    Do we really have to revisit again for the 300th time about IPSuk being given another chance in next year’s rotation?

    • steve (different one) says:

      i would say there is zero chance, barring some unforeseen injuries in ST, of Kennedy starting the year in the rotation.

      what he will do, if he isn’t traded, is pitch in AAA and if he does well, he will move to the top of the list of injury call-ups.

      i don’t see anything wrong with that.

    • As long as we have fans nonsensically writing off the future of a kid who doesn’t turn 24 for another two months by foolishly calling him First Initial – Middle Initial – SUK!

      then yes, Relaunch, yes, we have to revisit it again. And again, and again.

      • Relaunch says:

        It was foolish in the first place to give an average pitcher at best a nickname. Its even more nonsensical to have such high projections for a pitcher of his caliber. Typical of Yankee fans trying to hype of their own prospects.

        The guy will be average at best. And no, he will not be a Greg Maddux. More like a Carlos Silva.

        • Chris C. says:

          Hype up to what? Who was hyping Kennedy up to Greg Maddux?

        • Steve S says:

          Its really not a nickname, they are his initials. And its not as if they named him Ian “Cy Young” Kennedy. The kid looked good in his first season and looked bad in his second. As bad as it is to compare him to Maddux, its even dumber to say Carlos Silva which has to be an extremely obscure reference and has no relevance. Silva is a pure sinker/splitter guy while IPK is a guy who lives off his control and change of speeds.

        • It was foolish in the first place to give an average pitcher at best a nickname.

          I have no clue what you’re talking about. Are you referring to people calling him IPK? That’s not a nickname, that’s the man’s freaking initials. Furthermore, it’s not even a nickname that conveys/bestows any level of greatness, or any attribute at all. It’s not “Phil Franchise”. IT’S THE KIDS DAMN INITIALS. You’re upset that Kennedy isn’t good enough of a pitcher to merit people calling him by his initials? Do you plan on rolling over in your grave after you die that people said “Hava Molina”? ARE YOU SERIOUS? Should I FedEx you a copy of the Seinfeld episode where George tries to get everyone to call him “T-Bone” and he ends up as “Koko” just to show how silly this whole thing is?
          Is “The Nickname Test” really where we’re going to go with this?

          Its even more nonsensical to have such high projections for a pitcher of his caliber.

          No, it’s not. It’s not nonsensical to have high projections for a guy who was a first round pick, one of the most dominant players in the history of California highschoolers, the ace of the staff of one of the 5 best college programs in the nation, with plus command and plus pitches. His projections were as a solid major league starter. To this point, he’s shown flashes but hasn’t reached that. Doesn’t mean he still won’t. Sure, some people somewhere probably said that he was going to be the next Walter Johnson. Those people are/were dumbasses. Don’t let their hyperbole poison your mind to the point where the pendulum swings so far to the other side that you think he’ll never amount to jack. HE’S TWENTY-THREE YEARS OLD.

          Typical of Yankee fans trying to hype of their own prospects.

          I’m still waiting for someone to tell me why we shouldn’t hype our prospects. Everyone hypes their prospects. What, we should tell the Pirates that Jose Tabata is going to suck balls while we’re trying to deal him for Marte and Nady? That makes no sense. Believing in and showing faith in your prospects is the only way that they’ll ever turn into major leaguers.

          The guy will be average at best. And no, he will not be a Greg Maddux. More like a Carlos Silva.

          Unless you’re the Great Karnak, that’s not a fact. That’s just your opinion. Lots of other people, with much more experience evaluating and developing players than you or I, would put IPK’s probable future closer to Maddux’s than to Silva’s.

  10. Stephen Rose says:

    FWIW — I think the Yanks should go for free agents and be willing to stick with their good bullpen, Joba and Wang. Morale would sink massively were Andy to return and not be on, helping the Yanks into the same pit as this year. I would say build with free agents, find a first basement who can hit and essentially make it a team of new proven talents and vet keepers like Jeter, A-Rod, Damon and Abreu — but with the new as much of a presence as the vets.

  11. Ryan says:

    how is pettitte definite?

  12. ortforshort says:

    Mussina is trying to position himself for a three year deal. We’re at the early stages of this negotiation. Let’s revisit in January.

  13. ohbwonhomie says:

    giese should become mendoza redux, spot start, long man. he might not throw above 90 but kid showed lots of guts and brain out there, should have the shot to make the team with an edge given to him during st.

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