Oct
15

NLCS Game 5: Phillies @ Dodgers

By

It’s do or die time for the Dodgers, a loss tonight sends them packing for the winter. Fortunately for Joe Torre his best pitcher is set to take the bump tonight, as 24-yr Chad Billingsley looks to forget his 2.1 IP, 8 R disaster is Game 2 of this series. The 24th overall selection in the 2003 draft has seen his ERA, Kper9, BBper9, K/BB rate, OPS against, and # of pitches thrown per inning improve each year during his 3-yr stint in the bigs, so it’s safe to say he’s on the cusp of superstardom.

Unfortunately for Joe the Phils are sending their best pitcher to the mound as well, with also 24-yr old Cole Hamels looking to send the Phightin’s back to the Fall Classic for the first time since 1993. Hamels has been automatic this postseason, with just 11 baserunners allowed & 17 strikeouts in 15 IP. Heidi Strobel‘s husband has improved his ERA, BBper9, OPS against, and # of pitches thrown per inning during his 3-yrs in the bigs just like Billingsley, but he gets much more love because he plays on the East Coast.

Game time is 8:22, Joe Buck & Tim McCarver have the call on FOX. Enjoy.

Philadelphia
1. Jimmy Rollins, SS
2. Jayson Werth, RF
3. Chase Utley, 2B
4. Ryan Howard, 1B
5. Pat Burrell, LF
6. Shane Victorino, CF
7. Pedro Feliz, 3B
8. Carlos Ruis, C
9. Cole Hamels, P (14-10, 3.09)

Los Angeles
1. Rafael Furcal, SS
2. Andre Ethier, RF
3. Manny Ramirez, LF
4. Russ Martin, C
5. James Loney, 1B
6. Casey Blake, 3B
7. Matt Kemp, CF
8. Blake DeWitt, 2B
9. Chad Billinglsey, P (16-10, 3.14)

Categories : Game Threads

215 Comments»

  1. 27 this year says:

    Damn, nice pic!

  2. dan says:

    And I’m left wondering why I quit baseball in like 6th grade.

  3. Steve says:

    Wow, that picture is amazing.

    A Dodger fan that cares. I’ve never seen that before.

  4. Steve says:

    I wonder if Vin Scully says “The Los Angeles Dodgers, wearing their blue/white home uniforms with the INTERLOCKING ‘L’ and ‘A’ on the cap”

    I bet he does. Michael Kay doesn’t have an original thought in his big, fat head.

  5. Steve says:

    WOOO-HOOOOOO!!!!

    JIMMY BABY!!!!

  6. Manimal says:

    Well that was surprisingly fast.

  7. Mike A. says:

    Well, Chad Billingsley obviously can’t handle the pressure of the postseason. Just like CC.

    • Steve says:

      When your first name is ‘Chad’ people will accuse you of being soft your entire life.

      Now ‘Cole’, thats a clutch first name right there. Wreaks of a gamerish, performing in the big spot kinda guy.

      • Mike A. says:

        Seriously. With a name like “Billingsley” he should be writing for The New Yorker.

        Chadwick Billingsworth

        • Steve says:

          Chadwick Dupont Billingsworth the third, of the Billingsworth yacht building family. Married to Cynthia Dupont.

          Those names always remind me of the old George Carlin bit.
          “Hi! I’m Chad Dupont Billingsley the third!”
          “Hi! I’m George-jerk-me-off-fuck-you.”

  8. Steve says:

    “Every . . body Werts . . . . some . . . . time. “

  9. Mike A. says:

    How about Russ Martin?

    Russell Nathan Coltrane Jeanson Martin

    That’s his real name.

    • Steve says:

      I’ll bet his Mom and his Dad got into a big fight over what to call him, and just put down all of the names they liked.

  10. Jamal G. says:

    Joe Torre: “Blake DeWitt will always be a winner.”

  11. Steve says:

    I was listening to WEEI this morning, and besides my new found appreciation for NY sports talk radio I picked up a lil’ tidbit from Gordon Edes.

    He said that the BoSox are already making noise that they’ll be going hard after Burnett this off season. Its become obvious they don’t have enough pitching in this series, and they like him for the exact same reason we do. He kills us and he kills the BoSox. So its double the bang for the buck if they sign him.

    • whozat says:

      I’d love the Sox to waste money on Burnett. They’ll need to find someone to pitch the 60-100 innings he misses each season for the next several years.

      • Steve H says:

        I would love to see them throw 5/75 at him. They’d end up Renteria’ing him and paying most of his salary for him to pitch for some middle market team for the last 3 years of the deal.

      • Steve says:

        Yeah, I don’t love Burnett either. But if you’re going to have innings limits on both Joba AND Hughes, you cant make both of them your 5th starter. And skipping a guy on off days will work sometimes and not others depending on whether its his turn or not.

        That just doesn’t work unless you want to slot in Aceves twice a month. Then you effectively have a 6 man rotation. It just gets very messy, I dont see the Yanks doing that.

  12. Jamal G. says:

    So what’s the deal with Juan Miranda? How comfortable would you be with him being the Yankees’ Opening Day starter at First Base? Would you be more comfortable with it if he were part of a platoon? Every scouting report suggest that his defense is not pleasant to witness, and if it’s one thing the Yankees need to improve, it’s their defense.

    Personally, I’ve become part of the group that wants Mark Teixeira over C.C. Sabathia. I really feel the defense of this team is of in need of more drastic changes than the starting rotation (if Andy Pettitte and Mike Mussina make their respective returns). With the loss of offensive production from two above average corner bats (Bobby Abreu and Jason Giambi), this team sure could use a second prolific offensive weapon in the starting nine.

    So what about you guys? Do you think it’s better to go after Sabathia and give the First Base job to a platoon of Juan Miranda and a lefty-mashing First Basemen? What about Sabathia and an external option at First Base that gives you fringe-average or below average production at the position, but Gold Glove defense (Doug Mientkiewicz type)?

    • Mike A. says:

      I don’t know what to do with first base anymore. Watching the ALCS has made me realize just how fucked the Yanks are. They’re old all over the field. Tampa’s going to own the division for the next 5 years, easy.

      • Ivan says:

        There gonna have to get a little bit lucky.

      • Steve H says:

        As long as they get 30+ starts out of 4 starters, and 27 out of the other, they have a chance. As we know, the odds of this aren’t good. Maybe they arms they have waiting in the wings can step in and help, but that’s not always the case. See the 2008 Yankees.

        • SWB says:

          They have 9 starters that could take the ball next year for them. I think their staff is the least of their worries going forward

          • Steve H says:

            Just like Kennedy and Hughes were able to take the ball this year. Of those 9 arms, several of them have accomplished nothing in the majors.

        • Mike A. says:

          As long as they get 30+ starts out of 4 starters

          Much easier said that done. Only 4 teams had 4 guys make 30 starts (Phillies, ChiSox, Halos, Tampa). It’s not just a matter of player evaluation, luck plays a big role.

          • Steve H says:

            That’s my point. I wouldn’t give them the division for the future, because they were lucky this year. Their 5th guy made 27 starts. Also this team will run into payroll problems once some of these guys are arbitration eligible and the payroll will exceed the paltry $25 mil it’s at now. It can’t stay there. Will they pay them, or will they sell off, like the A’s, Expos (of the past), etc.

      • Steve says:

        Add Price to the rotation next year . . .

        Their lineup is still very weak, and their bullpen over performed like crazy this year. They also are very limited in plugging holes with trades or FA signings. So if someone gets hurt, they’re fucked.

        I think we can still beat them with some starting pitching help, which I dont doubt we will find this off season.

        BTW-On the subject of Rays injuries, Gammons was making the rounds today saying Kazmir will have elbow surgery this off season.

        • Mike A. says:

          BTW-On the subject of Rays injuries, Gammons was making the rounds today saying Kazmir will have elbow surgery this off season.

          What a fuck. How convenient that he points that shit out the day before the kid makes the biggest start of his life. For all the shit he gave A-Rod and Boras, he should just shut the fuck up.

          That’s still not as bad as when he called Rays’ fans “embarrassing clowns” and “tacky” in an article the other day.

          • Steve H says:

            Just like the Paul Byrd HGH story being released last year right before he faced the Sox in the playoffs.

          • SWB says:

            I agree he shouldn’t have said it when he did but everyone that follows baseball knows something isn’t right with Kazmir this year

            • Steve says:

              Yeah, I mean if its true I dont know why anyone would kill the messenger.

              Do you think that someone with his contacts in the Boston front office might have got it from the Boston side? And you can figure out why they would say that for yourself.

        • SWB says:

          Can’t they plug holes with their farm system? If we don’t add a big time pitcher like CC or Peavy I don’t like our chances overall. Lowe is not going to be a difference maker and won’t be an upgrade over Pettitte or Moose. Besides ARod and Jeter they are probably better at every position on the field so how is their lineup weak? Also ARod over Longoria is very debatable.

          • Steve says:

            “Can’t they plug holes with their farm system?”

            Yeah, but as we saw this year with the Yanks that’s very unpredictable. Every one of their rookies isn’t named Price, and most kids take time to adjust.

            But again, I expect us to sign CC and maybe Burnett.

      • Accent Shallow says:

        The farm system needs more time.

        It’d be nice if we had some position players flying through the system the way Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy did.

    • Steve says:

      He’s a hideous fielder. Just about zero range side to side. And he’s a platoon hitter. I just dont see it as a realistic option if we want to compete next year.

      The Yanks have a new ballpark which will basically be a printing press for cash. I think they sign CC, Tex, bring back Andy and look to make a trade for another pitcher. Not Peavey, who said today he has a strong preference to stay in the NL, which is smart of him.

      • Ivan says:

        While his defense isn’t great, it’s not as bad as people say. He can sure hit righties but of course his weakness is lefthanded pitching which he is improving.

        • Steve says:

          I didn’t see him much, but I did watch that championship game. On more than one play, I could have sworn his cleats were nailed to the dirt.

    • Accent Shallow says:

      I’m a little squeamish about handing the 1B job to a ~25 year old Cuban who’s yet to show he can hit in the majors, has a massive platoon split, and plays horrendous defense. If it’s a tossup between him and Giambi on a reduced deal, we’ll see. One’s old and can’t hit a good fastball anymore, the other’s yet to show anything. Ick.

      Mientkiewicz shouldn’t even be on the radar. A good defensive 1B is a bonus.

      This is why Teixeira makes so much sense — he has good on-base skills, good power, and plays great defense. If you can get him for less than 8/200, I think you have to do it.

      With Miranda on the 40 man, I’d assume he’ll either get a shot as a bench bat, or be traded?

  13. Jamal G. says:

    God dammit, why does Tim McCarver have to be so damn old?

  14. Ivan says:

    Billingsley gettin the quick hook.

  15. Accent Shallow says:

    So Torre uses his long reliever to get one out? Who’s pitching the rest of this game?

    Also, Gamecast identifies him as “C. Ho Park”, hahaha.

  16. Steve says:

    Who do you think throws harder at this point of their career, Moyer or Maddux?

    I dont think either one breaks 86 MPH.

  17. Ivan says:

    I will say this, I think the pitching is pretty solid especially if they add another pitcher like Lowe.

    Nevertheless, they need to improve the defense and get younger position players. Obviously much much more easier said than done.

    Tex would help alot on this team and making a trade for the OF would certainly help. To be honest, I really don’t know what’s gonna happen for the yanks in the offseason.

    • Steve says:

      Lowe was quoted on MLBTR today saying “he has little interest in playing for the Mets or Yankees.”

      http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....-la-2.html

      Which is fine by me.

      • Ivan says:

        Okay, I really don’t know what the yanks are gonna do.

        • Steve says:

          After CC.

          I know, Peavey says he wants to stay in the NL. Lowe doesn’t want to pitch in NY, Burnett is injury prone. Will the Giants make a deal for some hitting? Maybe.

          But the more you look at it, its just like the Yanks have stated. Go hard after CC and Burnett.

    • Jamal G. says:

      I think the Yankees can carry Brett Gardner’s bat in Center Field, without issue. With the immense production we get from Third Base, above-average production we get from Short Stop, Second Base and the Catcher’s position, we can carry a below average hitter in center. In terms of range, Johnny Damon (Left Field) and Gardner (Center Field) are excellent.

      As for the infield, the addition of Mark Teixeira would make the right side of our infield one the best in the American League. For awhile, Robinson Cano was the second best defender at Second Base (Mark Ellis, Oakland). Lastly, Alex Rodriguez has been average to above average at the hot corner, so we have no real issue there. Oh, and then there’s Derek Jeter. I think we’re all tired of discussing his defensive abilities (or lack thereof).

      I don’t think we can even aspire to be an above average defensive club, but our 65% conversion rate of balls that were put in play into outs was dreadful; we should improve upon that with the addition of Teixeria, a return to form from Cano, regular playing time from Gardner, and consistency from Alex Rodriguez.

  18. Mike A. says:

    Did Tim McCarver just say “incentivively?” I do believe he did.

  19. Jamal G. says:

    What’s with all the fear of Manny Ramirez not being motivated with a long term deal? He still beat the hell out of the baseball when he “lacked motivation” in July of this season.

    • Ivan says:

      Be fair, he’s the only guy in baseball that can quit on his team just like that and wouldn’t give a fuck about it. Plus, his defense is atrocious. Sure he can hit but come on a guy like Manny can just be very fickle.

      Plus, like Mo, Manny is gonna have a season when the bat isn’t working and he’s no spring chicken either obviously.

      • Steve says:

        . . . and consider he’s 37 and by his own admission has trouble with hard throwing righties at this point. Now when his bats slows down a little more, and he’s not the hitter he once was, what value does he bring to a team?

        He’ll be an aging malcontent in a few years who wont accept his reduced playing time and will cause trouble to get himself traded again. I wouldn’t touch Manny if I was a NY team. Great hitter, but not worth the bullshit.

    • A.D. says:

      I believe he hit during most of his Boston contract, when he was paid and had years in front of him

    • Mike A. says:

      The guy made up injuries. That’s as bad as it gets. No matter how good of a hitter he is, I couldn’t forgive the bullshit he pulled in Boston.

      Remember how he basically took September off the last few years? Screw that. Give me a kid that actually wants to pay.

      • Steve says:

        I’ve always thought the worst thing you could ever say about a professional athlete is that he quit on his team. That’s worse than steroids, gambling, you name it.

        He did that twice, that we know of. There were other times where things happened and the Sox always covered up for him.

      • Jamal G. says:

        I’m all about the bottom line. The bottom line is that the SOB was a vital part of two championship winning clubs and why the Red Sox have won at least 93-games in seven of the past eight seasons.

        This is baseball, I don’t really care who they employ to win, as long as they do.We don’t know these guys on a personal level (for the most part), why should we dwell on the type of people they are?

        • Mike A. says:

          What kind of message does that send to the rest of the team? “I don’t give a shit that you made up injuries and acted like a bitch to get your way, you’re a good hitter and I’ll pay you a ridiculous amount of money.”

          Is that really what Robbie Cano would need to see?

          • Ivan says:

            Exactly. Cano does have a little Manny in him.

          • Jamal G. says:

            Do you really think a professional baseball player that is one week shy of his 26th birthday needs a positive role model to perform to his capabilities over the course of an 162-game season?

            As for the rest of the team, come on Mike, these guys are grown men for the most part. Even if you are worried about the rookies, they have guys like Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Andy Pettitte, Mariano Rivera and even Joba Chamberlain’s energetic ass to lean on for a positive influence.

            I know not every team has the impeccable veteran leadership that our beloved Bombers employ, but damn, I just don’t think one malcontent can destroy twenty-four other guys.

            What exactly do you guys think Manny Ramirez can do that would negatively affect a team’s on-field performance?

            • Nady Nation says:

              Ask Boston up until July 31st. They could probably tell you

              • Jamal G. says:

                Really? You really going to blame Manny Ramirez for All-Star Catcher, Jason Varitek, sucking ass at the plate? It’s Ramirez’s fault for Daisuke Matsuzaka having a 5.05-BB/9? It’s Ramirez’s fault for Clay Buchholz going through growing pains? His fault for Mike Lowell being old? How about for J.D. Drew having a frail body? Curt Schilling’s dumb ass going to blame Ramirez for his shoulder woes?

                I’d like someone to explain to me how Manny Ramirez’s actions affected a positional player in their respective Plate Appearances; or a pitcher in while they were on the mound trying to figure out how to make Derek Jeter hit into another double-paly.

                • Nady Nation says:

                  The team went 34-19 after Manny left. If you think that was just total coincidence, and you choose not to believe players in their own clubhouse who said Manny was a massive distraction and even voted that he needed to be traded because it was negatively impacting the team as a whole, then we’ll have to agree to disagree.

                • Jamal G. says:

                  Yes, because grown men are going to be thinking about Manny Ramirez’s comments in the media (or whatever) while hey are in the batter’s box or on-deck.

                  Oh, and I think Jon lester’s 2.95-ERA in 85.1-IP during the second half had more to do with that 34-19 record than Many Ramirez’s absence from the cleanup spot. Then again, it could have been Kevin Youkilis’ vital line (.310/.403/.595) in the second half that had more to do with that 34-19 record.

                • Nady Nation says:

                  There is still a team concept to baseball, as much as you want to individualize it.

              • Steve H says:

                Ask Boston about titles in 2004 and 2007 after going 86 years without one.

                • Nady Nation says:

                  I’m not denying Manny played a vital role in those championships, we all know the kind of talent he is. However, this is the aspect of Manny that’s a major drawback, especially when considering whether or not to sign him to a multi-year deal in the latter part of his career. Like I said above, if you don’t think his actions took a toll on the Sox this season, then we just disagree.

                • Steve H says:

                  I don’t think his actions took a toll. I also don’t advocate a long term deal for him. I’d give him 3 years max, which won’t happen anyway. But I think had he stayed in Boston, they would be a better team with a better chance of winning it all. Read Joe Sheehan’s article about Manny “quitting” on the Sox in July. It’s very interesting. He played in 22 of 24 games and hit .343. That’s the simple part, but Sheehan spells it out very nicely on how the “quitting” claim doesn’t really hold water.

                • Steve H says:

                  Oh, and also, there really is no difference between this Manny and the Manny of the past 7 years. The only thing you can point to is the traveling secretary stuff, which has absolutely no bearing on the field and with his teammates. The Sox had won 2 series with Manny, and saw this as an opportunity to get rid of him, but he’s been pulling the same shit for 7 years, they allowed it and enabled him, and it didn’t hurt them.

                • Nady Nation says:

                  I’m just going by the players and coaches in the Boston clubhouse. There’s a reason why Theo Epstein felt it absolutely necessary to get rid of the best hitter of our generation by the trading deadline, and not even let him finish out the year with them. I’m just guessing that those inside the organization have a better idea of how Manny’s actions were affecting the team than a columnist or the fans.

            • Mike A. says:

              What exactly do you guys think Manny Ramirez can do that would negatively affect a team’s on-field performance?

              Not play, or even just not playing hard, something he has a history of doing.

            • Ivan says:

              Lets say Manny was on the yanks this year. And Manny is hitting obviously, nevertheless, the team like this year is 9GB for a playoff spot and it looks bleek.

              You think Manny is gonna be motivated to play the rest of the season? He’ll come up with an apparent “knee injury” and obviously miss the rest of the season just chilling basically. That’s not cool and would rub alot guys on the yanks especially DJ and Posada and even DJ.

              • Jamal G. says:

                You are right, it would rub them the wrong way, but I don’t care about that. I care about whether his actions are going to affect twenty-four other professional players to the point that they are not playing to their full capabilities. Since there’s basically no proof of that, I don’t understand why so much credence is given to the notion.

        • Nady Nation says:

          Why would you want to root for someone who makes up injuries and tanks on his own team? We follow baseball because we’re fans – we want to root for our team and like our players. Other than his unbelievable god-given talent, there’s not much to like about Manny, or the way he carries himself. Not everyone has the same “win no matter how big of an asshole/quitter you sign” mentality as you do. It’s completely understandable why people wouldn’t want to sign him, especially at age 36-37.

  20. Steve says:

    Here’s a nice tidbit from LoHud

    “Meanwhile, Brian Cashman was kind enough to tell me that the Yankees have no side agreements with any of their free agents to decline arbitration if offered. But that doesn’t mean they would accept, given that their contracts would not be guaranteed for 2009.

    UPDATE, 4:28 p.m.: This directly from C-Money himself: “They would be on non-guaranteed contracts – but since it is a major league contract, they would get either 30 or 45 days termination pay in spring training if they are released…if they make team it become guaranteed.”

    The bottom line (as Derek Jeter likes to say): The Yankees could have a whole mess of draft picks in 2009.”

    Then that explains it. Again, I cant remember draft pick compensation ever being a problem with a pending free agent. It always seemed like a formality, for whatever reason and this appears to explain why.

  21. A.D. says:

    Speaking to the Miranda question before, I think if you put him and Doug Mien… together you might have something, Mien plays the defense late & against lefties, Miranda should be able to put up numbers against righties. I’d prefer Tex, but if it doesnt happen this wouldn’t be a bad option

    • Mike A. says:

      Use Miranda against righties and the lefty hitting Mientkiewicz against left-handed pitchers because he historically hits lefties better?

      Girardi would never go for that shit. His head would explode.

  22. Mike A. says:

    I’ve got an idea so stupid it just might work. Why not sign Greg Maddux? The guy’s never been on the DL. Surefire innings every 5 days.

  23. Mike A. says:

    Wow. Just a brutal play by Furcal.

  24. A.D. says:

    That convo made no sense.

    Shane Victorino….is he going to get the Ellsbury superhero treatment this postseason?

  25. Ivan says:

    Jesus Christ, Furcal is just playing brutal defense.

  26. A.D. says:

    Definitly need to replace Jeter with Furcal this offseason

  27. Accent Shallow says:

    Not Raffy’s day, huh?

  28. Mike Pop says:

    Man hard to watch

  29. Ivan says:

    Well barring a miracle, this game is over uh?

  30. Ivan says:

    Plus, one more thing, these playoff games suck. The playoffs haven’t been good since really 03.

  31. Mike A. says:

    Blake DeWitt with a team leading 13 runners left on base this series. Grit over talent boys, grit over talent.

  32. Ivan says:

    DeWitt with a winning GIDP.

  33. Mike A. says:

    Mitch Hamels’ woman is hotter than his brother’s.

  34. Mike A. says:

    So wait, the NLCS could end tonight, the ALCS could end tomorrow night, and Game 1 of the World Series will be next Wednesday? Fuck the heck.

  35. Ivan says:

    Manny just made Jamal’s night.

  36. Mike Pop says:

    This guy McDonald has some good stuff

  37. Mike A. says:

    Russ Martin had a GritAttack after that pitch.

  38. Ivan says:

    You know what’s more entertaining than the entire NL playoffs? This:

    http://i15.photobucket.com/alb....._Owned.jpg

    I can’t fuckin resist, it’s just that damn funny.

  39. Mike Pop says:

    What do you think bout bringing in Rick Peterson as our pitching coach ?

    • Mike A. says:

      Well, the Yanks have Victor Zambrano, so maybe Peterson can get around to fixing him in 10 minutes.

      Yep, went for the obvious joke.

    • steve (different one) says:

      why?

      • Mike Pop says:

        Cuz he has a reputation as a good pitchign coach and could be good for Hughes

      • Jamal G. says:

        Seriously, this is like the second comment today that suggested a replacement for Dave Eiland. Not like the Yankees didn’t rank fourth in the Major Leagues (second in the A.L.) in FIP with a 3.98 mark.

        Oh, wait…

        • A.D. says:

          Agreed, we don’t need a pitching coach, if we did, i.e. Eiland blew or retired, then Peterson could be interesting, but until that happens, its Eiland’s job

        • AndrewYF says:

          That just shows how really, really terrible the defense is.

          And even with Giambi and Abreu gone, it’s not going to get all that much better, sans a Cano rebound, a Teixeira signing, and a breakout year from Gardner.

  40. pat says:

    geez victorino is dialed in

  41. Jamal G. says:

    Nady Nation made a point that I’m individualizing the sport of baseball too much, and that’s why I don’t see the big issue with Manny Ramirez’s actions. Honestly, that’s a fair point. However, my rebuttal to that is simple: outside of pitching and turning a double-play, what aspect of baseball involves actual teamwork?

    • A.D. says:

      thats bringing to down a bit too much, why baseball is essentially a string of individual achievements there is something to be said for liking the guys around you, just like any other job, if you like the people you work with you’ll only do better, not guaranteed to do better, but it won’t hurt.

      I totally get what you’re saying, and ppl do make too big a deal, that how AJ Pierzynski goes from clubhouse cancer to leader by switching teams, or how teams go from diss-array to united after a good winning streak, but it shouldn’t be completely dismissed

      • Jamal G. says:

        thats bringing to down a bit too much

        Yeah, I know, but that was the intent. It’s a debate tactic, sort of like low-balling someone in a business negotiation. You break down the notion to its bare bones and by the time both sides have had their say, you realize that you have gotten the opposition to adhere to a lesser stance than before.

    • Steve H says:

      I agree with you Jamal. There are a ton of asshole players in baseball who have won a ton of World Series’. This isn’t Jeff George QB’ing a team, or Stephon Marbury running the point. Baseball is an individual sport, especially for an OF and while I would probably like for everyone to get along, it’s certainly not a detriment to winning. Look at Reggie’s Yankees. I’m sure many of his teammates hated him more than Manny’s teammates, but at the end of the day they both helper their teams win it all, and that’s the bottom line.

      • Mike A. says:

        If you’ve got a team of 25 guys going 25 different directions, your season’s over before it even starts.

        • Jamal G. says:

          But twenty-five guys going in ten different directions makes it all that better? Come on, we’ve all been on baseball teams before, were we all close or buddy-buddy with the entire squad?

        • Steve H says:

          Manny’s always gone in his own direction, and all he’s done is win games. 25 Manny’s might be an issue, but 1 Manny certainly has never been a detriment to his teams.

          • Nady Nation says:

            Then why did Boston trade him this year? If they thought he wasn’t a detriment to the team and was going to help them win a World Series this year, don’t you think they would’ve put up with his antics for a couple more months? Clearly they knew they weren’t going to get equal value for him, yet they still opted to deal him.

            • Jamal G. says:

              Yeah, but you’re acting like they stabbed themselves in the foot to trade him. Jason Bay is a fine acquisiotn, especially for the future. You get a 30-year-old outfielder hat gives you well above-average production (outside of his 2007 season, Bay never had a year where his OPS wasn’t at least 30% better than the average N.L. hitter), a right-handed power bat in Fenway Park, and a guy who is signed for below-market value ($7.5M) in 2009.

              • Nady Nation says:

                Come on Jamal, for a guy who has defended Manny til death, you’re trying to tell me now that they would’ve rather had Bay over Manny for the stretch run/postseason this year because he’s a fairly young OF whos signed for ’09? Manny is an amazing talent, and in my opinion, the best hitter of our generation. And even though they did do a decent job of at least getting something valuable in return for Manny, I don’t think Boston is stupid enough to think that talent-wise, Bay gave them a better chance to win the World Series this year. The decision to trade him involved more than thinking about the future or getting Jason Bay in return. They clearly felt that Manny was negatively impacting the team and that it was putting their season in jeopardy

            • Steve H says:

              I think it was a huge mistake that they traded him. He’s not doing anything different than what they allowed him to do for 7 years. They enabled him, they allowed this behavior, and it clearly hadn’t effected the W-L record before. I don’t know what changed (and frankly I don’t think it was much). The front office and ownership were split on this, half of them still wanted to keep Manny, so they weren’t concerned. Pretty safe to say the Sox could use Manny now.

        • Jamal G. says:

          Also, didn’t they used to say that about the 2002-2205 Yankees? They did pretty well for themselves: Four division crowns, back-to-back trips to the ALCS and an A.L. pennant is not too shabby.

    • pat says:

      ajax was a homer short of the cycle today and miranda had another double w/2 rbi and is hitting a whopping .563 this fall

    • Nady Nation says:

      I understand and agree with your basic premise, after all baseball is the most individualized of team sports, but it still is just that: a team sport. You are supposed to play hard and give your best effort not just for your own good, but for the good of your teammates and for each other. I know you’re not a big believer in chemistry, but if a player sees his teammate dogging it or not playing hard for him, maybe he will reciprocate that effort by thinking “if he’s not gonna bust his ass for me, why should i for him?” Obviously, I don’t know for a fact that anyone on Boston felt that way, but judging by their comments, it seems as though that certainly was a possibility.

    • Ivan says:

      I agree that yes baseball is the one sport where Manny can get awy with the things he does. Baseball yes is the most individual sport of all the major teams. That said, Manny is the type of guy if ya team isn’t doing big things, well he’s malcontent and absoulute slacker. Sure it’s about results but what if results are mix, then you get the bad Manny and if you ain’t careful a really bad Manny.

      • Jamal G. says:

        Yeah, but when the really bad Manny showed up, the Red Sox were 3.0-GB of the division, and was leading the A.L. Wild Card standings (July 31st standings).

        • Steve H says:

          And Bad Manny was producing, unlike Good Varitek (the All-Star) and Good Papi, and Good Bucholz.

        • Ivan says:

          But doesn’t it raise eyebrows when despite winning and success to even this season, when they had a vote of do you want Manny off the team, that all of them voted tes off the team.

          Remember these are athletes who all they care about is winning and are willing to put up with ALOT of crap if they win and get very good results. Despite Manny hitting and the team winning and etc, the team still want him off the team. Doesn’t it tell ya something.

          • Jamal G. says:

            Yes, it does, it tells me that they care more about the chemistry aspect than I do. It shows me that they think that Manny Ramirez, as a clubhouse distraction, is affecting their team negatively more so than his bat is affecting the team positively.

            It also tells me that I am of a different opinion than they are, and I still think they are wrong.

  42. Ivan says:

    Come on Hamels, it’s Jeff Kent of 08 not 00.

  43. A.D. says:

    So guess that Blake deal didnt get the Dodgers to the WS after all

  44. A.D. says:

    Well if the Phillies were still willing to trade Victorino, that price has skyrocketed with this post season

  45. pat says:

    whoops posted this on the tail end of someone elses comment by accident

    ajax was a homer short of the cycle today and miranda had another double w/2 rbi and is hitting a whopping .563 this fall

  46. Mike A. says:

    What a catch by Utley. He really ran that one down. You can almost say he had to “chase” it.

    Eh? Eh?

  47. Bill N says:

    holy utley batman

  48. Jamal G. says:

    Alyssa Milano is the hottest depressed chic ever.

  49. ESSRO says:

    Anyone just see Furcal picking his nose for like a full minute?

  50. Ivan says:

    Yo Jamal, in a couple weeks the NBA season will begin. Who you got for the finals and who’s ya MVP.

    Mines is LAL Vs. CLE in the finals and LAL winning the whole thing.

    And my MVP is LeBron James.

    Go Knicks!!!

    • Jamal G. says:

      The MVP goes to LeBron James, (as it should have last season…) the title goes to the Hornets (they’re my trendy pick, sue me).

      Go Blazers!

      • Ivan says:

        It was Kobe’s award and he deserved it.

        • Jamal G. says:

          Again, my point still satnds, you give LeBron James Pau Gasol and LaMar Odom, the Cleveland Cavaliers would be looking to repeat as NBA Champions in the 2008-2009 season.

          • Ivan says:

            And put Kobe in the Eastern Conference and you would really see what Kobe can do.

            • Jamal G. says:

              He lost to an Eastern Conference team, though. You can’t use that argument since he won the Western title.

              • Ivan says:

                Give me a break. The disparity between the Celts and the rest of the league was ALOT larger considering the rest of the East was sucky than the disparity of the Lakers in the west.

                The only team in the East that could contend in the West was the Celtics and maybe Detroit.

              • E-ROC says:

                LOL. The Celtics would’ve done the same thing Lebron as they did to Kobe: Focus all of their efforts on him and make his teammates try to beat them. Kobe faced a different Celtics team than Lebron. Yes, the same names were there, but that team got better as the postseason continued. That part was pretty obvious.

                By the way, when Coach K told Kobe to “unleash the Mamba” in the Olympics Finals, I think that pretty much sealed the deal as to who is the best player in the game. Just my humble opinion.

      • Ivan says:

        Who comes out of the East?

        • Jamal G. says:

          Hmm, I think the Celtics’ window shut when they raised that trophy in the air (age and depth), so no repeat for them. How about the Raptors? A rejuvenated and motivated Jermaine O’Neal could be the turning point in the Eastern Conference.

    • pat says:

      sort of related, im psyched to watch the trailblazers this year, old man oden for roy

  51. Mike A. says:

    Congrats to the Phils.

    It’s trendy to hate Torre, but I congratulate him and his team on a great season.

  52. Ivan says:

    Congradulation to the Phillies and Good job to the Dodgers and of course Torre.

  53. Jamal G. says:

    Cool.

    If the Rays can close out their series, I will be rooting for them. I enjoy seeing Philadelphia’s fans suffer almost as much as the Cubs’ fans. No professional champion since, what, 1983?

  54. Bill N says:

    bring on the rays

  55. Ivan says:

    Met season just got worse.

    I thought Beltran said that the Mets were the team to beat.

  56. Jamal G. says:

    Oh man, I can’t wait for the Fall Classic to start; I’m going to be listening to Harry Kallas for the entire series.

  57. pat says:

    CONGRATS PHILLY YOU’RE ABOUT TO BE STEAMROLLED BY THE RAYS

  58. Mike A. says:

    Haha, Phillies’ fans holdin’ a “YA GOTTA BELIEVE!!!” sign. Twistin’ the knife.

  59. greg says:

    Wow, that was a good point about Ed Wade building a good nucleus, I guess he isn’t necessarily so retarded after all.

  60. yankeefan91 (sign manny) says:

    MIKE ESPN REPORTED ANDY WANTS TO RETURN TO THE YANKS

  61. Alex says:

    Andys back in the fold… at what price? 16 Million? 12? ‘tween?

  62. Jamal G. says:

    John Wooden: “It’s not always the club that wins that you’re [most] proudest of.”

    That’s an amazing quote.

  63. Ivan says:

    And no surprise, John Kruck on ESPN picked the Phils to win the WS.

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