Brewers exercise Cameron’s option

Should the Yankees offer Pudge arbitration?
Identifying the greater need

Via Tim Dierkes, we find out that the Brewers have exercised the 2009 option for Mike Cameron. He’ll make $10 million for the season. Cameron would have been an intriguing option as a one-year stopgap in center field while the Yankees figure out the situation. The likelihood of Melky or Gardner starting the season in center field just got greater. Jim Edmonds remains an option as a one-year stopgap, though I’m not sure how seriously the Yanks are considering him, if at all.

Should the Yankees offer Pudge arbitration?
Identifying the greater need
  • Steve S

    The more I think about it the more I like Edmonds. He would be affordable and would come on a one year deal. And as much as its corny to say he seems (and I emphasize seems) the kind of guy who would fit nicely in the clubhouse and could help. And the contract would be affordable enough to dump or bench if they get into May or June and he isnt doing it and they give Gardner, Melky a shot. They should give themselves some options for center and thats the place where they have the biggest hole right now.

    • radnom

      Would he be any better in center than Damon would?

      • Steve S

        I dont know if the comparison is for Damon, I think the comparison should be to Gardner, Melky or whoever else they can get. Edmonds is probably the same defensively (I havent really watched him) but he did put up on .820 OPS and he stayed healthy. The financial commitment would probably be around $5 – $6M which for what he can provide wouldnt be the worst thing in the world. Im not saying they need him but he may be the better choice because right now Damon is the LF and the CF would be Brett Gardner.

        We can discuss Manny Ramirez in left but thats not the subject of this thread.

        • Steve S

          the same defensively as Damon, I should clarify. And Edmonds was relatively healthy last year.

        • radnom

          No. The comparison is to Damon and here is why.

          If Edmonds is not significantly better defensively than Damon, it would make more sense to keep Damon and his superior bat in center and acquire a corner outfielder such as Abreu or Dunn.

          The only reason you sign Edmonds is if you are comfortable with Edmonds D in center, but are not comfortable with Damon there. Otherwise, you are unnecessarily hurting your offensive power without improving defense.

          • Steve S

            No, because thats a different dicussion. Acquiring a leftfielder or another right fielder like Abreu would require a multi year expensive commitment. Thats why Cameron was in the discussion and specifically it was Cameron offense (whatever it is) combined with his defense. Cameron actuallly had a worse year than Edmonds last year, at least offensively. If the issue was only defense than Gardner would be the only conversation.

            And again the two guys you mentioned are multi year commitments, especially for Adam Dunn who might be young but is a one dimensional player and probably should be at 1B or DH before you even discuss leftfield at Yankee stadium.

        • radnom

          So if he is the same as Damon, why not have Damon in center and then go with a better (than Edmonds) bat in a corner outfield spot.

          X-Edmonds-Damon

          (Bad defense – 1 bad hitter)

          X-Damon-Abreu

          (Bad defense – 0 bad hitters)

          X-Gardner-Damon

          (Better defense – 1 bad hitter)

          Do you see why I compared Edmonds to Damon instead of Gardner? The only question is really whether he is a defensive improvement over Damon or not, and it appears he isn’t so it would be a poor signing.

          • Steve S

            The question is because you want to be naive about contracts and the fact that the one positional prospect they have is a CF and is due in 2010. So the question becomes

            As is:

            Damon- 1 yr $13
            Nady- 1 year $8M (approximate)
            Brett Gardner- ML min

            Your plan:

            Damon- 1 yr $13
            Nady- 1 year $8M
            and either

            Manny- 4- years $20M
            Abreu – 3 years $15M
            Dunn- 4 years $15M

            I can see why you would like this for next year but it shows no foresight for 2010 and beyond. You could have AJAX ready by 2010 and then sign Matt Holliday who is arguably better than all three above and resign Xavier at 30 years old at a reasonable price.

            You would prefer an aging, defensively weak outfield for the next four years, I say minimize it to next year and financial limit the damage with an eye to the future.

          • Steve S

            And this is exactly the kind of moves they shouldnt making. Signing long term deals with overvalued players that become dead on their roster. I mean at least if your arguing for Mark Texeira then your getting a premium player who is in his prime. But you want Dunn on the team for four years or you want Bobby Abreu for the next three or four years when he is on the wrong side of 35.

            • radnom

              Way to miss the point. Forget Abreu that was just a random example.

              You can get a stopgap corner outfielder (not Abreu or Dunn) with a better bat than you can get a stopgap centerfeilder.

              If that center fielder has no defensive upgrade, then there is no point.

              You are attacking the wrong part of my argument. If you want example of guys I can provide some but give me some time I’m at work atm.

              • Steve S

                You suggested two guys- Dunn and Abreu- here are some more- how about Pat Burrell, he is a mutli year commitment. The only guy I see on a short term deal is maybe Juan Rivera, Moises Alou, Jason Michaels etc… I didnt miss any point, you tried to supplement your argument by referencing Abreu and Dunn without acknowledging the fact that there arent that many corner outfielders available this year that are as good as Jim Edmonds, available on a one year commitment. And again that was the point of Mike Cameron, he was a better offensive player than Brett Gardner and was better than Damon offensively. I said Edmonds because he can be average defensively and is a better offensive player than Mike Cameron. And you know he isnt getting more than one year.

                If the choice was one year of Dunn and Abreu then of course it would be easy but you mentioning completely defeats any argument your making. And doesnt prove that Edmonds is a bad signing.

                And just for your reference here is the link
                http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/2009-mlb-free-a.html

                which one of these guys is available for one year and would be that much better an offensive option.

                • radnom

                  And you accuse me for not looking ahead.

                  We could easily sign a corner outfeilder to a ~3 year deal considering Matsui and Damon are done after this season.

                • Steve S

                  What corner outfielder available is worth three year deal? Perhaps Manny Ramirez but as many arguments as there are for Manny I could make a couple against. He is really the only guy and the financial commitment looks like it might be big and four years might be too much for a 37 year old guy who doesnt like to play defense.

                  You keep changing the subject and your point. Which corner outfielder would you sign for three years? You said that Edmonds is bad signing because Damon can play center and they can sign a corner outfielder. You list Abreu and Dunn as your options, I say they are bad financial commitment beyond next year and then you say ignore them but in the same breath you say we should sign a corner outfielder for three years. What exactly is your point? And who do you anticipate signing. Im not married to Edmonds but I think he offers some nice depth at a position of weakness on a short term deal.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  Yeah, Steve isn’t married to Edmonds, he’s married to steve (different one).

                • radnom

                  You keep changing the subject and your point. Which corner outfielder would you sign for three years?

                  No I’m not, you are the one who is talking about corner outfeilders now.

                  My original point is that if Edmonds is not a defensive upgrade over Damon, I don’t want him.

                  You disagree?

                • Steve S

                  Are you crazy? Just read the exchange. I never did disagree, but he isnt a downgrade and is a clear upgrade offensively for centerfield over the current CF Brent Gardner/Melky Cabrera. You are clearly the one who brought up corner outfielders because you want Johnny Damon to be the CF and the Yankees to sign a corner outfielder who would be better than Jim Edmonds. Id love the idea but you seem to want a mythical corner outfielder who signs short term that you wont specifically identify.

      • christopher

        still has a much better arm than damon

  • Reggie C.

    imagine if Willy Taveras just got a step closer to wearing pinstripes.

    • Tim

      My concern with this is what it would take to get him. If he costs Kennedy, is that really the best that Kennedy could bring at this point?

      • radnom

        My concern is how much he sucks.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

          My concern is people still mentioning Willy Taveras at all.

          • Mike Pop

            We should look at Adam Kennedy once we trade Cano for Holliday

            • Chip

              That’s funny, I just advocated taking Kennedy in a trade down below :)

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                What’s funny is that we weren’t serious about taking on Taveras, or Adam Kennedy. They both blow chunks.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

            Melky’s OBP was > Taveras SLG. Yeah…

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              Willy Taveras had a negative slugging percentage? WOW!

  • steve (different one)

    no surprises here. Cameron’s option was a no-brainer for them. even if they fall out of contention, i imagine they could trade Cameron mid-season for a decent return.

  • CLT_JR

    I am not sure why we would want to go with an old stangnant, base-to-base player. Gardner’s speed intrigue’s me. The guy is lightning fast. If he can hit .275 with and OBP of 370+. He would be fantastic! Let him and Melky fight for the job. They both should be workign their tales of right now.

    I’d rather use the money on Tex and CC.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

      If a guy with Gardner’s speed could put up a .370+ OBP, he’d be one of the best CFers in the league.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

      “They both should be workign their tales of right now. “

      [facepalm]

      • radnom

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        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

          Thanks, g.

        • Mike Pop

          thats a nice lil pic there

        • AndrewYF

          Love the picard facepalm

          • CLT_JR

            Nice picture, but the whole point is that I would rather have 2 guys with potential, then a washed up 36 yr old who’s defense is declining. Baseball is changing from the Bash brother juice heads to a game of speed again. Gardner’s speed brings a dynamic that no one in our organization has. If he can be patient like he was in the minors (I know it’s different), he can be a valuable weapon. Sure .370 was aggressive. I was throwing a # out that there. Say he is league avg or even below it at .325 with his speed and hitting in 9 hole in front of Damon, Jeter and a healthy Arod. He’d score 80+ runs.

            Also, people seem to think that the Yankees have some endless supply of $. Let’s be real, our economy is in the shitter and that is going to affect their ability to sell the luxury boxes, fans buying tickets and spending $10 a beer. Contrary to what people believe they can not throw money around. Sorry, I went on a tangent. My point is that I’d rather give Tex and CC a few extra Mil, then waste it on an old washed up CF life Cameron or Edmonds.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              Sorry, I went on a tangent.

              All of this is a tangent. Everything you’ve said so far is a tangent. I don’t even know if you’ve touched the curve at all yet.

    • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

      If he can hit .275 with and OBP of 370+. He would be fantastic!

      So would every other up-the-middle player in the Major Leagues. The average A.L. hitter got on-base 34% of the time (in 2008), are you really going to project Brett Gardner to exceed those expectations by such a vast margin?

      • radnom

        “are you really going to project Brett Gardner to exceed those expectations by such a vast margin?”

        Are you new here?

        God forbid he actually does break spring training as the everyday CF, these same posters will be screaming for Cashman’s head for allowing that to happen and not trading for Matt Kemp when we had the chance.

        • Tim

          Especially because LA offered Kemp for Britton.

          • Mike Pop

            No no no it was for Karstens and Farnsworth but Cash wanted Nady instead

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

            It was Kemp, Furcal and Broxton for IPK and Cano, and we flipped Broxton and Hughes to the Mets for Santana and David Murphy. But we didn’t do it.

            Stupid Cashman.

            • Mike Pop

              Idk why we brought him back for 3 years… Theo woulda made that deal in a heartbeat

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                Theo woulda got the Mets to throw in Reyes.

                • Mike Pop

                  Yup that is the legend that is Theo “Einstein” Epstein

  • Mike Pop

    No bigz… I think we are gonna be happy what we see from Gardner this year..

  • Chip

    I’m completely fine with this. I think this means we’re set in center this season with Gardner/Damon. Edmonds could be an option but does anybody think he could play a better center field than Damon? Also, we could get Taveras but is he going to hit better than Gardner? I’d take Gardner’s speed myself (and he should be able to take a walk once he adjusts to the league)

  • John D

    Joseph — realize this is slightly off topic, but Heyman mentions twice in his piece today to look for Casey Blake as a potential 1B for our beloved Bombers. never thought of him as an option thereand certainly had not read that anywhere until today. is he a good defensive 1B? also, check his lifetime stats at the Stadium. not good, but very small sample size. do we like this idea? is he going to be more productive than the Big G?

    • Alan

      I was mulling that possibility over earlier this week when the FA’s started to file. He’s a solid, if unspectacular, player. He gets himself on base, drives in runs, and has average power. He’d certainly be a better defensive option than Giambi, though we’d lose some power in the lineup. The downside of this is that he’s an older player that is likely to regress and doesn’t really offer an upgrade in any area other than defense.

      • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

        He gets himself on base…

        Really? In the four seasons where he’s actually garnered 600 or more Plate Appearances, he’s only reached based at a higher clip than league-average twice. In fact, his career OBP is .334, and his career OPS+ is 105.

        I’m sorry, but the vast drop-off in offense from Jason Giambi to Casey Blake is not worth whatever defensive, gritty, gutty, hearty or beard-y advantage Blake gives you at First Base over Giambi.

        • Mike Pop

          Try and tell the Red Sox that grit doesnt win

        • John D

          thats pretty funny.

          and, I happen to agree.

        • Alan

          Point taken, if you ignore his 2006 season and the first half of last season he looks much less attractive. Also, after further looking at his stats, he’s never actually managed to get 600 plate appearances in a season, which makes him even less attractive. Goes to show how thin the first base market is, I suppose. After Teixeira, there’s a massive drop-off in quality.

  • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

    Cameron would have been nice.

    Now that that’s over, let’s give CF to Gardner, let Abreu walk, move X-Man to right, move Damon to DH, flip Matsui for two A-ball pitchers, and sign Manny Ramirez for 4 years to play LF and eventually DH when Damon disappears.

    (commence the righteous indignation comment war… NOW!)

    • radnom

      Forget the non-baseball arguments (which I do not believe are trivial)
      I would rather have Tex+Matsui than I would just Manny.
      If we sign CC (which in my opinion should be the priority) then there is no way both Tex and Manny get signed.
      Matsui could be a force next year if he is healthy and DHing.

      • Mike Pop

        We should just jack the payroll up to 250 and sign Manny, Tex, CC and Burnett. Thats what a real owner with a true desire to win would do. but hey thats just my opinion

        • Alan

          If we’re going all out we might as well throw some money at K-Rod to be Mariano’s setup man too.

          • Mike Pop

            Maybe bring Dunn in for a bench bat

            • Alan

              Also, bring in Orlando Hudson to be the everyday second baseman and trade Cano to the Dodgers for Broxton, Kershaw, Kemp, and Billingsley.

              • Mike Pop

                Cmon man lets be serious now lol

                • Alan

                  Ok, ok fine I’ll throw in Phil Coke too.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

        I would rather have Tex+Matsui than I would just Manny.

        I don’t think that’s an either or, but whatever.

        If we sign CC (which in my opinion should be the priority) then there is no way both Tex and Manny get signed.

        I agree that CC and Tex are priorities #1 and #2. I disagree that we can’t do all three. We have around $150M in collective AAV expiring in the next three years, and of that, only Jeter is likely to be resigned. We can afford Tex, Manny, and CC and still have a sub $190M payroll for the foreseeable future (minus a one-year bump in 2009).

        In any event, I’d say CC should be priority #1 and Tex and Manny are co-priorities #1A. We should try to get both, but if one signs elsewhere, we should intensify efforts to get the other. Say that in your scenario, we sign CC and decide to keep costs down by only signing one other FA of significance, and Tex reups with Anaheim. Would you go all-in for Manny then? You should.

        Matsui could be a force next year if he is healthy and DHing.

        And the Queen of England can look like a hot babe if you’re drunk enough. I think that’s neither here nor there. Yes, Matsui can be a force if he’s healthy and DH’ing. The odds of him remaining healthy are declining precipitously. Furthermore, Matsui at his best is a shadow of Manny at his worst.

        • Mike Pop

          That my friend makes alot of sense… Bump up the payroll a little bit for this coming year but our needs will already be filled for 2010 season. Plus hopefully the farm can help us out more.. Thats a good point tsjc

        • radnom

          Our disagreement is that you think we can sign Manny+Tex+CC and that I know that is not going to happen :P.

          Seriously though, I would give Matsui a better chance of being healthy next year than most people seem to give him credit for. \
          Knees usually are not a problem after the type of surgery he went through, and now he has got them both out of the way so he’s got no more to injure. Add in the fact that he won’t be running around out in LF and you’ve got a combination for what should be a solid walk year from Mr. Earlobes.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

            If it was just one year of bad knees, maybe I wouldn’t be concerned. He’s had bad knees for three years now. We both agree that there’s no way that he can play the field… but I start to wonder whether he can even run the bases. Hideki got real old, real fast.

            • radnom

              They were different knees though.
              If his surgery was successful, knees should not be his problem this season. I will admit that he is getting brittle and something else could pop up though.

              Also, you would DH Damon and play Manny in left?
              If we get rid of Matsui/sign Manny I think I would rather he was DHing right away and having Damon’s speed in left next year.

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                Meh, whomever DH’s and whomever plays LF, doesn’t really matter to me. I put Manny in left because I’m less concerned with his health and keeping him fresh than I am with Damon, and because after Damon leaves, I’m probably giving the DH to Posada at some point. I’d rather leave Manny in left until I have to, and right now, I don’t have to.

        • radnom

          Say that in your scenario, we sign CC and decide to keep costs down by only signing one other FA of significance, and Tex reups with Anaheim. Would you go all-in for Manny then?

          Yes, but within reason. Anything more than 4 years and I’m completely against it.
          I still think he re-ups with LA.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

            Yeah, I think I wouldn’t go more than 4 years for Manny either… and I also wouldn’t be shocked if he did re-up with LA. Just glad to hear that you’re not dismissing Manny out of hand; he’s sick.

            Oh, and:

            2008 offseason expiring contracts: $66,929,483 (Giambi, Abreu, Pudge, Mussina, Pavano)
            2009 offseason expiring contracts: $54,000,000 (Damon, Matsui, Pettitte, Marte, Nady, Molina, Betemit)
            2010 offseason expiring contracts: $15,000,000 (Mariano Rivera)
            TOTAL AAV SAVED: $135,929,483

            How I figured that: I assume that we pick up the 1yr, 6M option on Marte, and resign Pettitte to a 1yr, 12M deal, hence, they’re not included in the ’08 savings but in the ’09. And, I left Jeter off the ’10 savings list, since we’ll resign him. Redoing Jeter’s deal, and kicking some money to CMW at some point, are the only internal resigns we’d be doing, and figure that CMW’s deal probably adds 10-15M AAV to the payroll whenever it’s added. (Jeter’s deal would be a negligible increase, if any.)

            I also offset the 5M and 1.95M buyouts of Giambi and Pavano in the ’08 savings, to keep the accounting honest.

            Say that Tex, Manny, and CC all total new cumulative contract AAV’s of 75M (which would be the absolute max). That’s only a 9M bump in 2009 payroll, EVEN while bringing Marte and Pettitte back, and then we’d have a payroll going into the 2009 offseason that’s 45M LOWER than it is right now (with Mo’s 15M coming off after that) with the following roster:

            C-________
            1B-Teixeira
            2B-Cano
            3B-ARod
            SS-Jeter
            LF-Ramirez
            CF-_______
            RF-_______
            DH-Posada

            B-_______
            B-_______
            B-_______
            B-_______

            SP-Sabathia
            SP-Wang
            SP-Joba
            SP-Hughes
            SP-_______

            RP-Albaladejo
            RP-Robertson
            RP-Coke
            RP-Edwar
            RP-Veras
            RP-Bruney
            CP-Mo

            And, best case scenario, virtually all those holes can be filled internally; if Austin Jackson is ready, there’s your CF; if Brett Gardner continues to improve, he can take a corner OF spot (or Jeter can move there if we find a replacement at SS); if IPK or Aceves or Humberto Sanchez can continue their progress, one of them can be a decent 5th starter, if not more; and there are Mark Melancons and J.B. Coxes and Jeffrey Marquezes and Anthony Claggetts to fill out the bullpen and Frankie Cervellis and Matt Carsons and Juan Mirandas to fill out a bench… and we still have oodles more quality starting pitching talent on the way.

            All we need is to probably get a catcher to solidify it while Jorge moves to DH, and even the catcher need not be a long-term solution with Montero and Romine in the pipeline, and maybe a good corner outfielder with pop. Bottom line is, we can let all our aging vets walk (getting picks for some), sign CC, Manny, and Tex, only have a few minor holes left to fill after this offseason, and even buy out the rest of Wang and Joba’s arbitration years and STILL reduce payroll for the foreseeable future.

            Now is the time to strike. YES WE CAN SIGN ALL THREE!
            SI SE PUEDE FICHA TODOS LOS TRES!

            (I’m tommiesmithjohncarlos, and I approved this message.)

            • Mike Pop

              He’s got my vote

    • Mike Pop

      hgkjwefh;gqhsdfhsdfhkjsdhfkjsdhflddjfsdhfkhsdlkf!!!! Are you freakin loco man..Manny”the all about myself” Ramirez at 4 years !!!!

  • C.Panella

    happy to see his option was picked up let’s be honest he nor jim Edmonds is the awnser here let’s wait and try to further develope Brett we may just be happily surprised as to what Brett can do

  • Chip

    Well if everybody is so unsatisfied with our center fielders why not put together a trade with St. Louis? They have both Skip Schumaker and Rick Ankiel who can play CF and have almost too many good outfielders considering they have no DH.

    If I’m Cash I’d at least have to give them a ring. They need young starting pitchers (I hear we have some), left-handed relief (if we end up with Marte we also have that plus Coke), and middle infielder (which we don’t have). I’m not going to start throwing out crazy plans but it seems that we would line up fairly well. Also, Adam Kennedy wants out of there and I wouldn’t mind eating his contract and use him as a utility man.

    • christopher

      this move by the brewers really makes me worry that they are going to be very very serious players for sabathia. everyone is counting him out, but after what he did for that team they are sort of in a Manny/Dodgers situation where the fans will be outragged if they just make a show me offer to him

      edmonds is not the answer, but he is a good fit on a one year deal. in a year of free agent stars all over the place you cannot forget that you still need 25 men and ned to build a complete team meaning you need those role players — you know those gritty gutty red sox types.

      • ceciguante

        how could the brewers possibly afford CC? i can’t imagine their fans suddenly expect big market spending from their GM. i think they know CC was a rental, and they appreciated the ride.

    • Mike Pop

      What are the chances that Ankiel becomes a type A after the 09 season ? If it looks like he has a good chance to become one would they do Marte for Ankiel straight up ? Or maybe throw in someone with Marte.. Both are going to be free agents. They need some leaders in the pen full of youth.. Could it be possible ?

      • Chip

        I go back on my promise not to throw out a crazy trade idea

        Ankiel and Kennedy for Marte, Kennedy and Rasner.

        Before everybody tells me how wrong I am, here’s what I’m thinking. The Cards want to get rid of Kennedy because he’s expensive. He wants to leave the Cards because they suck and he also sucks but thinks he can do better elsewhere. Kennedy and Rasner can be league average starters in the NL central (I think Kennedy can be above-average, see Karstens, Jeff) but neither is going to do well in the pressure-cooker of New York. Marte is a power lefty out of the pen that every team wants.

        The Yankees get an above-average backup infielder (as Mike would say, name three better backup infielders) who could play a below-average second if we just can’t resist trading Cano. Also, we throw an above-average center fielder with a GREAT arm out there. That puts our bench at Kennedy/Molina/Gardner and one of Betemit or Miranda. Name a bench that gives you a better Defense/Speed/Power combination than that. Plus, we’re only sacrificing one person of the ML roster (raise your hand if you honestly think Rasner/Kennedy will be making a meaningful contribution to this team in the next few years, is that crickets I hear?) and that guy is a reliever (ok yeah so he’s left-handed) which we have a TON of.

        So in review, Cards get two back of the rotation starters, salary relief and a power lefty while the Yankees get a power-hitting centerfielder with a wonderful arm and Cano protection off the bench. Neither team loses anything they can’t easily replace (Cards starting outfield is still very good with Ludwick/Ankiel/Lopez) and both strengthen a weakness.

        • christopher

          If the team were to sign CC, Burnett/Lowe/Sheets, and Manny – would that sway them to aggressively shop Hughes for a firstbaseman or centerfielder. I know he is a fat guy but fielder can rake – his dad wasnt exactly slim and had a great career – probably one of the last true power hitters before the steroid era

          • Chip

            But do you sign Fielder to an extension then? I’m not saying I’d be against it but you mention his father who was basically done by the age of 33 because he lost his power. If you don’t sign him though, you just gave up Hughes for a rental who declined last season. I’m not saying it’s a bad idea though

        • Mike Pop

          No reason to give up IPK just to get Adam Kennedy back.. We’d get raped.. Try Marte for Ankiel.. Win win

          • Chip

            Yeah, I don’t know exactly how the GMs value these guys. I’d be willing to give up Kennedy if we had to though. Maybe get them to throw a prospect back or something. I’m not expert but I think the basic idea makes sense

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              Chip, you should have stuck to your promise to not throw out a crazy trade idea. Because that trade idea was exactly what you said it was: Crazy.

              IPK is a good, young, pitcher who has value. That being said, the Cardinals are not going to trade us Rick Ankiel for Ian Kennedy. All the other stuff in there (getting rid of Adam Kennedy’s contract, Rasner in the NL Central, Marte, etc. etc.) is just noise. None of that makes the deal any more or less likely.

              And that deal is not likely. The Cardinals are shopping Ankiel for one reason: to make room for Colby Rasmus. However, they’re not just going to give him away.

              Crazy.

  • ceciguante

    i can’t see edmonds fitting in.
    he hasn’t reached 120 games played since 2005, he’ll be 39 next year, and it seems a safe assumption that his defense in CF would pale next to gardner’s.

    add the fact that edmonds hit .235/.343/.479 last season, and i think getting a bat (tex) elsewhere and living with gardner in CF is clearly the better option. buying an over the hill edmonds to put him out to pasture in CF would fail to make the team younger, hungrier or more athletic. pass.

    1 damon LF
    2 jeter SS
    3 tex 1B
    4 ATPLP 3B
    5 matsui DH
    6 posada C
    7 nady RF
    8 cano 2B
    9 gardner CF

    that’s a far more balanced team than the one we trotted out last year. start grooming OF, C and SS prospects ASAP.

    • christopher

      if that is there line-up next year they will have a tough time scoring runs — this line-up clearly needs 2 bats. not saying it needs both tex and manny, but it needs one more solid hitter

      • Chip

        121
        105
        151
        153
        111
        106
        128
        88
        55

        Those are the OPS+ numbers for that lineup. You’re 106 (Posada) and 88 (Cano) aren’t going to be changed and they should both top that significantly this season (I would hope anyway). So we’re down to Gardner’s 55 which is debatable if he’s going to turn out or not. I still say I’m comfortable with that lineup

        • ceciguante

          i’d have to expect that damon, nady and tex would regress a bit, alex, posada (touchy) and matsui would put up similar production, and jeter, cano, and gardner would increase somewhat. that’s a good lineup, with 4 players under age 30, and plus defense at 2 positions (CF, 1B). what an improvement over the older, slower, more injury prone 2008 group.

          add CC and that group wins 95-100 games and makes the playoffs. i fully expect a rays hangover in 2009.

    • Chip

      Not only did he hit .235/.343/.479 but he did it in the two worst divisions in the league. It’s not like he was facing Beckett/Lester/Hallady/Burnett/Kazmir/Shields

      I’m completely comfortable with that lineup you have on there as long as we get another starter or two

  • christopher

    just read that the rockies are shopping atkins in addition to holliday. what about a package to land both of them fillinf a void in the outfield and 1B – I know Atkins is a 3B, but the transition from third to first is traditionally the easiest one to make. Add to that his youth and the fact that AROD or Jeter may need 1B in a few years it could be a deal that could help the team in many ways. Of course they would need to deal either matsui or damon. Both bay area teams are looking for outfield help and either one could be a good destination for either, preferably Matsui.

    As for edmonds, i think he makes too much sense to pass on unless he is seeking a ridiculous amount of money which I doubt. Gives AJAX another year. I am starting to get aboard the Manny badwagon and perhaps the team declining the option on marte is a sign they are really going to open the vaults and get 2 or 3 stars, but that trade is looking pretty bad to me now.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

      You want to deal for Holliday AND Atkins?

      Who are we giving them in this scenario, besides Joba, Cano, and Montero? I’m curious.

      • Steve S

        Me, I love Vale this time of year.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

          I’m talking about someplace warm, a place where the beer flows like wine, where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano.

          I’m talking about ASPEN!!!

          • Steve S

            Throw another shrimp on the barbie….

            Samson…Swanson….Samsonite!!! Its right here in the suitcase.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

            Ah Denver. The sunshine state.

  • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

    Not based on any reality, and LOUD to boot. Sounds like The View.