Nov
25

Yanks’ Plan B coming into focus

By

So the news that the Angels are interested in CC Sabathia isn’t exactly the way I envisioned the Yanks’ starting Thanksgiving weekend. As Joe detailed earlier today, it seems that the Angels are looking to give up the Mark Teixeira chase and go hard after Sabathia. Outside of the fact that the Angels would emerge as clear favorites in the AL West for years to come, this has clear and lasting ramifications for the Yanks.

First, let’s dismiss the desire argument. As Wallace Matthews wrote today, some fans seem to believe that Sabathia’s silence indicates that he doesn’t want to come to New York. As far as anyone knows, that just isn’t true. Sabathia is waiting for other offers for two reasons. The first is that he knows the Yanks will up their offer significantly if the Angels do deliver a similar contract. It’s a smart business tactic.

Second, while Sabathia hasn’t jumped yet at any offer, we know he seems to prefer California to the East Coast. His preference is just that. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to play here; It just means he prefers over there.

As CC stews, though, the Yanks’ back-up plans are coming into view. Two Tyler Kepner articles kicked things off last night. First, he asked on the Bats blog if the Yanks have enough offense. Next, he looked at the Yanks’ lofty expectations for A-Rod and Robinson Cano next year. With a healthy Hideki and Jorge and a better season from Cano, the Yanks feel they can score a lot of runs next year.

To that end, as Ken Davidoff wrote today, the Yanks’ Plan B seems to be just that: score a lot of runs. If the Yanks actually do lose out on CC Sabathia, they will go hard after either Mark Teixeira or Manny Ramirez in an effort to shore up what should be a very good lineup. For obvious reasons, Teixeira is a better long-term fit, but having Manny and A-Rod at the heart of the order would lead to many a slugfest next season.

On the pitching front, the Yanks would entice Andy Pettitte to return and would look at a few other free agents. They don’t seem willing to go to five years for A.J. Burnett, but Bryan Hoch feels that Ben Sheets is a real possibility. Considering that Sheets would sign for fewer years and less money than any other big-name free agent, he would probably be the best fit of pitchers not named Carsten Charles.

So that’s Plan B. Score a lot of runs. Use the established pitchers, sign a free agent and ask either Alfredo Aceves or Phil Hughes to stop the revolving door in the fifth starter spot. Of course, the Yanks haven’t yet lost out on Sabathia yet, but if they do and can implement this plan, it certainly wouldn’t be the end of the world.

Categories : Hot Stove League

137 Comments»

  1. A.D. says:

    My issue with this is scoring a lot of runs tends not to work in the playoffs, that said the Yankees have the pitching talent to have a good rotation with out a major signing, its just young, unproven, in-experienced talent at several rotation spots if no one is brought in.

  2. Chip says:

    I wouldn’t be surprised that, if the Yankees miss out on CC, they end up with Tex at first, Dunn in right, Sheets as a starter, and packaging Nady with some young pitching for another starter. All in all, it’s not the end of the world.

    • Mike Pop says:

      What kind of SP are you going to get with that deal though ?

      • Chip says:

        Wang
        Sheets
        Joba
        (I’m not even going to take a guess, o wait yeah I am and say Glen Perkins or maybe another Twin’s pitcher or maybe a buy-low on Verlander? Yeah I doubt it too) or re-sign Pettite
        Hughes/Aceves/Giese/IPK/Coke/whoever else comes along

        That may not be the world’s most inspiring rotation but the lineup would be

        LF-Damon
        SS-Jeter
        1B-Tex
        3B-A-Rod
        RF-Dunn
        CF-Swisher
        DH-Matsui
        C-Posada
        2B-Cano

        which is by all accounts, a very very scary lineup. Plus, a short series against Wang, Sheets and Joba would be rough

        • Mike Pop says:

          While I dont that package would have any chance at Verlander just because he is the Tigers staff as of right now but maybe the Twins.. I dont know because it is only X for one year, would the pitching prospect have to be Kennedy ? Is X and Kennedy worth Glen PErkins or Nick Blackburn ? I dont know because KEnnedy could become one of those guys.. Now while Id do that deal for Scott Baker I dont think the Twins would

        • Chris C. says:

          LF-Damon
          SS-Jeter
          1B-Tex
          3B-A-Rod
          RF-Dunn
          CF-Swisher
          DH-Matsui
          C-Posada
          2B-Cano

          which is by all accounts, a very very scary lineup.

          Also look liks a very SLOW line-up, with a bunch of guys who strike out a ton, and are not apt to playing situational baseball. I thought the Yankees goal was to get younger and more athletic?

          Although I do like the additions of Tex, Swisher, and Adam Dunn.
          Finally, a few guys who can work the count! But that’s alot of extra K’s!

  3. Yank Crank 20 says:

    Definitely not the end of the world. You do what you can. If you get CC it’s great, if you don’t you move on and try other routes. I think Cashman is in a good position to make either plan work.

  4. Manimal says:

    I would sign both Tex and CC and have Aceves/Hughes/IPK/Giese fight it out in spring training. Andy just doesn’t seem like he can last a season anymore.

    • Chris C. says:

      “I would sign both Tex and CC and have Aceves/Hughes/IPK/Giese fight it out in spring training. Andy just doesn’t seem like he can last a season anymore.”

      Wow, finally someone who agrees with me.
      Whether Pettitte can last a season or not, it is just stupid to waste a rotation spot on a guy who you know will be mediocre at best, when you can use that spot to find out more about your high-level prospects.
      You have to give these kids a chance. You cannot clog up your rotation with 5 guys making 8 digits.

      The Yankees were just unfortunate with injuries this past season. That doesn’t mean the plan was a bad one.

      • Yank Crank 20 says:

        I don’t think last year’s rotation plan was necessarily a bad plan either. However, having no backup plan for if Hughes and/or Kennedy didn’t live up to expectations was the biggest problem. The lesson learned from last year is you never have enough pitching, and it would be better to acquire other proven, top-end pitching and let Hughes and Kennedy step up when they’re needed.

        Say we sign CC and Burnett/ or Sheets, you never know what can happen. Hughes and Kennedy won’t be denied a chance. Burnett or Sheets is an elbow pop from the dl, Pettitte the same, Joba and CC are big guys who can get injured…long story short, the kids will get a chance. Nobodies rotation stays healthy all year. I’d rather have Hughes/Kennedy be our next in line to fill in than out front and center carrying the load of the back end of the rotation.

        • Slugger27 says:

          “nobodys rotation stays healthy all year”

          …..except for the tampa fuckin rays

          i do get your point though, no matter who we sign, the kids will get their chances, no worries there

        • Chris C. says:

          I don’t think last year’s rotation plan was necessarily a bad plan either. However, having no backup plan for if Hughes and/or Kennedy didn’t live up to expectations was the biggest problem.

          True……..but last year, when Kennedy went down and Hughes was getting hit, the Yankees had no answers. NOW, they have a stable of young pitchers who they are confident can step in and do a nice job. Last year, those guys were pegged for those rotation spots, with no backup plan.

          “The lesson learned from last year is you never have enough pitching”

          I agree…….I’m only talking about the 5th spot in the rotation, and the Yankees can have 5 rookies vying for that spot. That’s plenty.

          “and it would be better to acquire other proven, top-end pitching and let Hughes and Kennedy step up when they’re needed.”

          I disagree. The succcessful teams in the game keep the last rotation spot open for one of their young guys to step up and take it.
          If you sign Pettitte, you are basically telling the young guys they will not have a chance to compete for that rotation spot right out of camp. Pettitte is just not that good a pitcher anymore to overpay for and guarentee a rotation spot to. He’s just not.

      • Chip says:

        I think they’re waiting to see on CC before they decide on Pettite. If they don’t get CC, they need Pettite and if they do, they still might need him.

      • Mike Pop says:

        “High-level prospects” come on man.. We got Hughes and Kennedy who qualify as that.. I like Aceves as much as the next guy but earlier this year people were saying he is just like Rasner but with a little better stuff.

        How do you say we are wasting a spot on Pettite ?
        A guy who gives you 200 innings every year and you can probably assume that he will have a better year than how he finished off last season. It is not wasting a spot on a guy like that.. For 12 million or so thats great to have and it will hold down a spot while maybe next year some young guy has a breakthrough and might end up being in the show in 2010..

        I agree that the Yanks were really unfortunate with injuries and that we should be going all out for Tex and CC..

        My ideal offseason Tex and CC at their rumored rates 160 and 150 and then Ben Sheets on a 3 year deal.. Even as much as I love AJ and his stuff we just cannot commit a 5 year deal to a guy like that especially with the money it is going to cost us.

        • Chris C. says:

          “I like Aceves as much as the next guy but earlier this year people were saying he is just like Rasner but with a little better stuff.”

          After watching him pitch, I don’t think he’s anything like Rasner. He has a much better reportoire of pitches.

        • Chris C. says:

          How do you say we are wasting a spot on Pettite ?
          A guy who gives you 200 innings every year and you can probably assume that he will have a better year than how he finished off last season. It is not wasting a spot on a guy like that..

          Well, okay. I’m not as condident as you are regarding Pettitte being better than last year, but I can accept that he could hold down a spot until the young guys are ready. I think at this point though, he is what he is……..an aging pitcher who will be mediocre. And he’s actually been more healthy than I thought over the past few years.
          He’s gotta move off that 16 mill figure though. He’s not that guy anymore.

      • Michael says:

        Chip,

        I agree. Why isn’t this being discussed more? Everybody seems to think that resigning Pettitte is a must, yet we can’t afford to go after CC & Teix? Why would you overpay a 4th starter (at best) to the tune of $13MM when you could cut that loss and pay an extra $8MM on top of that and land Teix? If we get to the playoffs with Pettitte as the 4th starter, how many times would he pitch in October? Twice tops!! So you’re going to pay $13MM – $16MM for a guy who possibly wouldn’t even pitch in a playoff scenario, but you’re gonna pass on an everyday, switch-hitting, gold glove, run-producing 1B because $22MM is too much to pay on top of CC’s contract? Of course this could all be posturing because if Pettitte was that much of a priority he would be signed by now.

        • steve (different one) says:

          Why would you overpay a 4th starter (at best) to the tune of $13MM when you could cut that loss and pay an extra $8MM on top of that and land Teix?

          and if teixeira was looking at a one year deal, you might have a point.

          Teixeira will command between $160-$200M.

          this “additional $8M” is just playing games with numbers. it’s an additional $150M.

  5. Chris C. says:

    “To that end, as Ken Davidoff wrote today, the Yanks’ Plan B seems to be just that: score a lot of runs.”

    Like A.D said, this never works. Especially come playof time, if you make it there. This seems to be the plan of the Texas Rangers every season.

    “that said the Yankees have the pitching talent to have a good rotation with out a major signing, its just young, unproven, in-experienced talent at several rotation spots if no one is brought in.”

    Yup……it’s called developing and building from within, and it’s not a bad thing. We’ve just watched 4 teams in their league championship series’ who got there doing just that. Heck, the strength of the Yankees, their bullpen, was built that exact way, wasn’t it?

    • Like A.D said, this never works. Especially come playof time, if you make it there. This seems to be the plan of the Texas Rangers every season.

      i don’t disagree, but i don’t think it would be taken to that extreme. the Rangers have great offense and NO pitching, the Yankees would be pairing average pitching with great offense. big difference.

      the Yankees were actually a pretty good pitching team last year. they need to replace Mussina, but on the other hand, they’ll surely get more from Wang, Joba, and Hughes.

    • Chris says:

      This kind of plan worked for the Phillies. They had basically no rotation after Cole Hamels, but scored a lot of runs.

      • Chris C. says:

        Whoa.

        Cole Hammils is an ACE! And Joe Blanton was stellar in the postseason, Brett Myers pitched reasonably well, Jamie Moyer was great for them during the regular season, and their middle relief and closer were terrific. The Phillies didn’t just slug their way to a championship…….they had the best starter on the field to carry them to one. And in the playoffs, that guy can get three starts a series!

        Now the Phillies have a potent offense, but they are still predicated on their pitching. They did not cruise through the posteseason winning ballgames 9-8!

  6. p says:

    I would be completely fine with aceves rockin the 5 spot in the rotation. It’s not ideal by any means but his stuff is good enough to hold a low rotation spot. Hes alot older and more poised than your typical rookie which imo is a huge leg up when you’re just starting your career.

  7. TurnTwo says:

    the problem with Manny is that you can definitely sign him, but you’ve got no place for him to hit.

    obviously, with a hitter like him, you find a place, but then where does that lead… a Damon, Matsui, or Nady trade? Is he the DH? Is he asked to play LF or RF?

    I think Sheets is turning out to be a decent 2nd option, regardless, considering the money Lowe wants, or the years Burnett wants.

    id like Sheets more, though, as the back end guy that you arent necessarily depending on but whose upside could make a difference instead of the signed instead of CC guy, and expect him to come in and make 25+ starts for each of the 3 seasons he’s under contract.

  8. eVizions says:

    I like the idea of Sheets whether we sign CC or not. I also think we should forget about Tex and keep Swisher at first. If we are going to add a bat, add an OF. Manny for 3 years makes sense, to me at least.

  9. Chris C. says:

    “On the pitching front, the Yanks would entice Andy Pettitte to return and would look at a few other free agents.”

    Pettitte appears to be begging to come back, so I don’t think much enticing would be needed. Although 16 mill is ridiculous.

    “Considering that Sheets would sign for fewer years and less money than any other big-name free agent”

    Is this true? Because if everyone believes it, there will be a bidding war for his discounted services, and he will end up being a bargain to no one.

  10. pat says:

    add an “at” to the end of that name

  11. Conan the Barack O'Brian says:

    Well said, Ben. It’s not the end of the world if Plan B works.

    Questions I still have are these: if CC signs with the Angels, how much greater the likelihood that we can get Tex given that the Angels would be out of the picture? There’s still the Red Sox, the Nats, the O’s…are we just going to throttle them in negotiations b/c we have the money? And would we be willing to go 8, 9, or 10 years for the guy?

    If we miss out on Tex and CC, and our final acquisitions are Sheets, Manny, and Swisher, along with signing Pettitte, can we say we had a successful off-season?

    • If we miss out on Tex and CC, and our final acquisitions are Sheets, Manny, and Swisher, along with signing Pettitte, can we say we had a successful off-season?

      i think so.

      i think that team would be better than the 2008 team without adding any onerous contracts (assuming Manny was signed to a 3 year deal).

      i prefer signing Teixeira to Manny b/c i like the idea of signing the 28 year old stud who can play good defense, but you could do that and then head into the next offseason ready to pay Matt Holliday (Manny goes to DH) and having a better idea of what you have in Hughes and Kennedy.

      • Mike Pop says:

        I dont think it is considered that successful because once again other than Manny we miss out on the top FA’s while settling for the Plan B FA’s but then again thats what Plan B is all about not getting the best talent but the second tier talent

        • sure, but if they make Sabathia the highest offer and he doesn’t take it, what can you do?

          it won’t be for lack of trying.

          oh, let me add that i missed something in my post: i am making the assumption that Teixeira does NOT sign with Boston.

          if he signs with Boston, then it becomes much less successful.

      • Conan the Barack O'Brian says:

        “i think that team would be better than the 2008 team without adding any onerous contracts (assuming Manny was signed to a 3 year deal).”

        Yeah, maybe. Does Sheets = Mussina? Does Manny + Swisher = Abreu +Giambi? If those are relative washes, it just goes back to Posada/Cano/Matsui being healthy and effective, serving as the difference from within.

        • Mike Pop says:

          Idk if Manny + Swisher is a wash with Abreu and Giambi… Manny is a beast man and Swish is better than Giambi right ?

          • Slugger27 says:

            “swish is better than giambi right?”

            no, he isnt. but the difference between manny and abreu is much bigger than the difference between giambi and swish so i would give the slight edge to manny + swisher

        • Does Sheets = Mussina?

          maybe not, but does Sheets + full season of Wang = Mussina + 1/2 season of Wang + 1/2 season of Rasner??

          probably.

          Does Manny + Swisher = Abreu +Giambi?

          i think it does.

  12. Baseballnation says:

    One question? Sheets is good for how many innings? 160-170 innings? Not exactly the Horse the Yankees need…And further, while he has great pure stuff, he doesn’t neccessarily mow em down at a fantastic clip, and that’s coming from the N.L. Can we suspect his K numbers to dip some while performing in the dreaded A.L. East? i think Surely. Point is I see Sheets as a viable second option to a one CC Sabathia. If Sheets is the first option now then I’m less enthused. I don’t think Burnett is as good or worth as much as he thinks he’s worth so this goes back to Peavy.

    Hate to beat a ragged horse, but if the Yankees lose out on Sabathia then I think the Yankees should include Hughes in a deal for Peavy, offer him an extension with alot more money as enticement, and then go for Sheets.

    • Reggie C. says:

      If we lose out on Sabathia , i’d give Towers a call immediately and hope that an offer of Hughes, Edwar, McAllister, and Suttle gets you anywhere near Peavy.

      • Mike Pop says:

        Im still not giving up Hughes for Peavy.

        • pat says:

          towers has already said hughes would not be necessary for a peavy deal. Pads are gonna be looking for a backup catcher in fa so we could probably use cervelli in any speculative trade for peavy. Maybe something like ajax ipk cervelli and robertson could do it. Thats all moot tho if jakey-pooh doesnt want to come pitch in big bad ny

          • Reggie C. says:

            I don’t think its all moot simply b/c we can afford to pick up that option year on Peavy if we’re not getting CC Sabathia. Peavy would have to be a fool to pass that up.

            With the Cubbies now out of the mix, that’s one team less for Towers to use to leverage the Yanks. I wouldn’t be surprised if Towers is working on Peavy right now to get him acclimated to the idea of going to an AL team.

            • pat says:

              I agree. one less player in the peavy sweepstakes is a good thing but i don’t think its the money hes worried about. I imagine if he hit the open market next yr he could get a guaranteed 4 or 5 year deal in the high teens. I just think he doesnt want to pitch in our small ballpark and have to face the big boy lineups in the al.

        • Brown44 says:

          Couldn’t agree with you more!

      • Brown44 says:

        We don’t know how peavey will do in the AL. I think hughes has a much higher upside now and down the road. If you pop off and get rid of everybody, the Yanks will have a 300 mil payroll and won’t be in the playoffs with a bunch of dusty old free agents!

    • Bigs says:

      CC had a great year. Put up some fantastic numbers, but I believe the best pitcher on the market is Peavy. If we can get him without giving up Hughes would be great. Year in, year out Peavy is the man.

  13. DonnieBaseballHallofFame says:

    Manny 3 years 75 million (plus another 20 in incentives)

    Sheets 2 Years 35 million

    Garland 2 years 25 million

    Pettite 1 year 12.5 million

    Lofton or Edmonds 2 million (one year to mix and match with Gardner)

    that is a better way to spend the money
    but what do I know right?

    • Baseballnation says:

      Garland sucks a good one.

    • hold on, let me get my pie charts and sliderule out…..wait, hold on….

      ok, i’ve got it:

      Garland sucks.

    • Reggie C. says:

      You never should’ve mentioned Garland. He’s a joke.

      • DonnieBaseballHallofFame says:

        Garland is a guy who will be a solid number 5 for two years no? That is all I would expect him to be. Garland could be interchangeable for all I care with one of 5 or 10 different pitchers. I just did not want to say “a Paul Byrd type pitcher” but I am talking about a professional pitcher who can be there at the bottom of the rotation.

        We should already have that guy in Ted Lilly but Cashman or whoever want Igawa aka Japanese Jeff Weaver.

        • Ben K. says:

          A healthy Phil Hughes is better and much cheaper than the absurdly overrated Jon Garland. Why settle for someone below average when you can plug in someone better for less already?

        • i think that might be an insult to Jeff Weaver…

          i understand using Garland in that role, but it seems like the $25M you suggested is a little steep for that, no?

        • Chris says:

          IPK or Hughes would be better options for the 5th starter.

        • Ben K. says:

          Revisionist history. Cashman didn’t not sign Lilly because of Igawa. The money wasn’t even comparable. The Yanks just weren’t interested in Lilly.

          And if you’re talking about paying Ted Lilly money for Jon Garland, you are grossly overpaying Jon Garland.

          • The money wasn’t even comparable. The Yanks just weren’t interested in Lilly.

            the money was very comparable.

            but what actually happened was that the Igawa posting happened in November.

            in the Winter meetingsin December, the Yankees were seriously engaged with Lilly. but then Pettitte agreed to come back, so they stopped talking to Lilly.

            the choice wasn’t really Lilly or Igawa, b/c of the timing, it was Lilly vs. Pettitte.

            also, i love how everyone posts Burnett’s innings pitched , yet 2 years later we are bitching about not signing Lilly, a guy who had NEVER thrown 200 innings in a season.

    • Mike Pop says:

      Ya Donnie.. Garland is just a waste at that kind of money if not a waste for any amount… Id rather give that spot to Aceves/Kennedy/Hughes/Humberto.. ya get my point

      Id sign Garland for 2 million though =)

      • DonnieBaseballHallofFame says:

        If we do not get enough MLB ready arms that can pitch we will end up with Sidney Ponson pitching again. One thing that has kept the Sox in it the last few years is depth, we need to gain that and money might be the only way to do that.

        Garland I bet will get a deal in that ballpark, but hey I could be wrong, and then again so could you.

        Calling Igawa the Japanese Jeff Weaver is kind of a diss to Igawa. At least Igawa threw one big game against the Sox a couple of years ago and I believe it was on a saturday afternoon if i recall correctly, maybe sunday but I think Sat, that is more than I can recall Ell Jeffe every doing in a Yanks uni.

        • Joseph P. says:

          Yeah, the Igawa game was when Jeff Karstens broke his leg.

        • jsbrendog (rocks) says:

          jeff weaver won a world series and actually contributed to other teams at the major league level. igawa has NO PORISTIVE TRADE VALUE. you cannot even give hmi away for free. weaver was easy to unload because he had upside and talent if he could get over his mound temper tantrums and melt downs after giving up runs

    • Slugger27 says:

      i think ideally youd want a solid RIGHT HANDED bat to platoon with gardner

      lofton would give worse production than gardner and worse defense so your downgrading both when putting him in so no idea where u got this platoon idea… edmonds could supply some pop with the bat i suppose, but would prefer RH hitter

    • Matt says:

      Manny > Pettitte > Sheets > Garland > Edmonds > used urinal from Yankee stadium > bucket of balls > lofton…

      Lofton?!?!? Lofton?!!!!!!!!! Didn’t we try that already and it failed miserably…

    • jsbrendog (rocks) says:

      no no no no to garland. never no how no way. why signg someone who sucks for multiple years? pettitte would be better because its only one year. no way

  14. mustang says:

    So that’s Plan B. Score a lot of runs. Use the established pitchers, sign a free agent and ask either Alfredo Aceves or Phil Hughes to stop the revolving door in the fifth starter spot. Of course, the Yanks haven’t yet lost out on Sabathia yet, but if they do and can implement this plan, it certainly wouldn’t be the end of the world.”

    I will give you Wang and Joba even with Wang coming of a injury and it being Joba’s first full year as a starter with pitch limits, but
    Sheets-Injuries problems
    Pettitte- 1 year older after a bad year and he has not sign yet.
    Alfredo Aceves- a Sept call- up magic that you even questioned.
    Phil Hughes- I don’t even want to get into it.

    And the score a lot of runs plan haven’t they try that for a few years now.
    Not the end of the world, but it sure sounds similar to last year.

    • Ben K. says:

      Did you read Mike’s piece about Sheets? Based on your comment, as I doubt it, and I even wonder if you read mine.

      As I wrote. the Yanks could “ask either Alfredo Aceves or Phil Hughes to stop the revolving door in the fifth starter spot.” I’m not saying award to one of them. I’m saying how one of them earn it. That would involve pitching well. But clearly to you, who seem to have a personal grudge against Phil Hughes, pitching well means going 34-0 with a 0.00 ERA and 600 K in 200 IP.

      • Mike Pop says:

        Heh owned by the Author

      • mustang says:

        First of all I don’t have personal grudge against Hughes or A-Rod as I said MANY MANY times. I want them to be successful because that makes the Yankees successful, but I’m not going to make excuses for what I see on the field. I read Mike’s piece and I agree with him, but with all due respect there is a reason why teams aren’t exactly knocking down Sheet’s door.
        All I’m saying is that you make seem like losing CC is not that big of deal when in fact it is especially since they would of now lost out on 2 ace left-handed number 1 type starters in the last 2 years.

        • jsbrendog (rocks) says:

          yes, they are not knocking down anyone’s doors. there have been no offers made to any pitchrs other than the yankees to sabathia…therefore you tell me how this makes sense that its bad because “you dont see anyone knocking down his door”

          and further, wouldn’t it be better to just knock politely instead of knock it down? that doesn’t eem like a good opening bargaining tactic to me

          i digress

      • mustang says:

        ” Phil Hughes, pitching well means going 34-0 with a 0.00 ERA and 600 K in 200 IP.”
        No I would of took 6-10 wins and making it through the season without spending 2 months on the DL.

  15. Russell NY says:

    “I also think we should forget about Tex and keep Swisher at first.”

    Exactly, and Posada can switch out with him to ensure Posada’s in the lineup every day.

    • considering that Teixeira is a better hitter than Posada, i’m not sure how that is an improvement.

      • Mike Pop says:

        Agreed Steve

      • Yank Crank 20 says:

        I think it’s safe to say nobody is an improvement over Tex at 1b. However, Swisher is already an improvement from the last few years. It was always Giambi healthy enough to hit .250 and drop between 25-30 home runs (something Swisher has done and can do at 10 years younger than Giambi) but at the same time a defensive liability. Or it was Giambi hurt and guys like Cairo had to fill in there. Or it was Mietcqwirythcn, who played stellar defense but couldn’t hit for shit. Notive the instability? Swisher is a better option than anything we’ve put together in a couple years at 1b. He provides roster flexibility where we can plug him at in the outfield when Posada needs a day at 1b or, a couple years down the line, is expendable when Jesus Montero is ready for the big leagues.

        Yes Tex is a better player, but Swisher is smarter move for our roster right now. I won’t be dissapointed if we get Tex cuz that would be f’in dumb…i’d love to have Tex, but I am ok with the Yanks going into 2009 with Swisher as the 1b.

        • i’d love to have Tex, but I am ok with the Yanks going into 2009 with Swisher as the 1b.

          i wouldn’t either, but i think they need to add another bat somewhere else.

          i don’t have any brilliant ideas who that would be.

  16. Jim says:

    I like Sheets as pat of a Plan B. Less years and less money. I also like Olie Perez. He’s still young (27), left handed, has swing and miss stuff and has proven he can pitch in NY. I think if you add those two guys to Wang, Chamberlain and Hughes, the Yanks with have a very good young staff. I don’t like the strategy of stacking the lineup, it doesn’t work. They don’t need Tex. The offense should be better than it was last year with a healthy Posada and Matsui.

  17. i do think it’s kindof funny that all of us, myself included, spend all day working out these variuos scenarios as if Cashman and the Yankees haven’t considered all of these same ideas. as if Brian Cashman doesn’t know who Ben Sheets of Adam Dunn are.

    i think so far, the yankee offseason has progressed about exactly as we thought it would: step 1: make the a huge offer to Sabathia.

    step 2: if he won’t take it for other reasons, move on to the other big fish.

    i am sure the Yankees have plans for their offseason based on a dozen different scenarios.

    • whozat says:

      “as if Brian Cashman doesn’t know who Ben Sheets of Adam Dunn are. ”

      But we haven’t heard any RUUUUUMORS!!!! Cashman is obviously sitting around with his thumb in his butt dreaming about signing Odalis Perez instead of “making things happen”!

  18. Axl says:

    We wouldn’t be in this predicament if our young prospects did what they were hyped up to be…Hughes and Kennedy mainly…Melky wasn’t really suppose to be much…even Robinson Cano is underacheiving at his young age…while his adversary on the rival squad is winning MVPs…and Hughes and Kennedy’s adversaries on the same rival squad are throwing no hitters and…well..at least one of them is doing what they were suppose to do (Lester).

    But since we’re cursed…we’ll have to resort to getting the Sabathias, etc.

    I just don’t know how we’re going to replace Abreu and Giambi’s OBP. We lost out on less OBP with Matsui and Posada going down…and the offense took a serious hit…now we lose out on even better OBP guys (both were the best on our team) and we’re just going to replace them with slap happy Nady and inferior hitter Nick Swisher…

    I dunno but we lost out on a lot of gambles recently (Hughes-Kennedy last season, etc) and it’s not a good idea to do so again…

    • Mike Pop says:

      Na man the Giambi/Pavano/Mussina curse is gone.. Don’t you worry bout a thang

      • Chris says:

        Out of those, only the Pavano contract was a bad deal, and how much did it really hurt the team? Having $10M per year flushed down the toilet didn’t prevent us from signing anyone, and it’s not like he was horrible for the short time he was pitching. If this were the Rays, then a deal like that might cripple them for years, but for the Yankees, the only bad deals are the one where you’re forced to play crappy players because of their contract.

  19. Matt says:

    I almost like this plan better, because I don’t think the pitching would be that bad…I mean, obv with CC it’s strong, but imagine a Tex/Sheets offseason:

    1. Damon, LF (L)
    2. Jeter, SS (R)
    3. Tex, 1B (S)
    4. ARod, 3B (R)
    5. Jorge, C (S)
    6. Nady, RF (R)
    7. Cano, 2B (L)
    8. Matsui, DH (L)
    9. Swish, CF (S)
    or Melky, CF (S)
    or Gardner CF (L)

    1. Wang (R)
    2. Pettitte (L)
    3. Sheets (R)
    4. Joba (R)
    5. Aceves (R)

    • Mike Pop says:

      Eh, I dont know bout that staff man.. I mean I like it but it can have its problems.. If Sheets goes down with an injury then Hughes fills in but then who pitches the rest of Joba’s starts once he reaches his innings limits ? Kennedy, Humberto, Giese ?

      And quick question if Joba reaches his limits during the season, do we pitch him in the postseason ? Or will we leave 25 or 30 innings off of his total in the regular season so he can give us those starts in the postseason ? I mean obviously we are going to have to use him in the postseason if we get there but how would they do it

      • Reggie C. says:

        Joba pitches the whole season barring injury. Sure the Yanks are likely to pitch him out the 5 hole and he might skip a start here and there in the second half, but i think the key is to make sure he doesn’t rack up abuse points. Joba MUST work on being more efficient. When he gets ahead 0-2, 1-2, he’s got to close out the at-bat.

        I’m expecting at least a 50 inning jump. If managed correctly, Joba should be fine.

        • whozat says:

          “at least a 50 inning jump. If managed correctly, Joba should be fine.”

          At most a 50 inning jump and, if managed correctly, he should be fine.

          Look at the Jays young pitchers in the last few years, with their big jumps and subsequent arm surgeries.

          • Reggie C. says:

            I’m thinking a total 160 IP is very likely if Joba makes 30 starts. I’m hoping Girardi has the discipline to pull him after 4 innings on the bad days, and after 6 innings on good days.

      • Matt says:

        I hate fucking innings limits…they baby these mofos…

        • Yank Crank 20 says:

          Good to see Nolan Ryan made it to the chat today…

          • Matt says:

            Haha, it’s not that, it’s just, dam. I mean, with all of today’s tech and conditioning, these guys can’t last?

            • Joseph P. says:

              You do understand that pitching is an unnatural motion, right? That even with perfect mechanics, plenty can go wrong.

              • Matt says:

                Yes, yes….this is why I like him in the pen more anyways, but that’s not going to happen.

                • Joseph P. says:

                  I’m trying to be as pragmatic as I can be here, but I fail to see how you come about your conclusion — Joba to the pen — from my statement — that pitching is an unnatural motion.

                  He might even be worse off in the pen, since he’s going at it with max effort every time out.

                • radnom says:

                  I can just picture Joe grinding his teeth as he typed that.

            • Yank Crank 20 says:

              Haha i see what you mean Matt but with all of today’s tech and conditioning it’s been concluded that the safest way to get return on your pitching investments is to develop them by a strict increase of inning intervals. It’s smart, but I can kind of share the frustration. I’d love for Joba to throw 200 innings out of the gate too but it’s just not smart, nor healthy, nor realistic.

        • pat says:

          its a different era these days man. Guys arent getting paid 5 bucks and a back of ciggarettes. Millions of dollards go into drafting and training them to eventually make it to the big leagues. Once they’re there you gotta protect your investments look at those teams that had sicknasty young talent( cubs with prior and wood the mets with generation k) and see what happens when you abuse it. Those teams could easily have been set up fpr a decade if they treated the youngsters a little more delicately.

          • pat says:

            If i spell a few more things wrong it will probably drive my point home even more. Yeesh.

          • Chris says:

            I think the bigger thing is that you need more pitchers. Before expansion, you needed 64 starters to fill out the rosters. Now you would need 150, because of more teams and the 5 man rotation.

            Are there pitchers who can handle tremendous workloads and not get injured? Sure. The problem is that you don’t know who they are until after the fact.

      • Frank B. says:

        If you’re going with a “score a ton of runs” mentality for 2009, then you MUST sign the greatest right handed clutch hitter in baseball, Manny… who in my opinion is a combination of Thurman and Reggie. Especially when it comes to the post season. He is the 21st century version of those two ballsy superstars.

  20. BG says:

    I think this plan B stuff is just conjecture based on people trying to plot where FA’s might end up. I’d be surprised if going hard after offensive free agents is really plan B. I’d imagine that plan B if they don’t get CC, is more flexibility towards a 5th year for AJ, perhaps some interest in Sheets, a slightly higher interest in Tex but not at 7-10 years at $20+/year and a lot more flexibility for what prospects they’d be willing to trade in a deal for a high end starter. There are always guys traded that aren’t on anyone’s radar. Just because Peavy is unlikely to be a NYY doesn’t mean plan B has to come from the free agent market.

    • Reggie C. says:

      That’s a really good , concise summation of plan B. I just hope we’re not flexible on giving Burnett a 5th year , when I think its easier to get Sheets on a 3 year deal. On the Peavy front, I think the chances for Towers coming our way improved with Lou Pinella stating that the starting rotation was set.

      Would you happen to be the dude “Big Guy” from the Yesnetwork boards?

  21. [...] Re: I’m starting to think CC doesnt want to play in NY Heres a good article: Yanks’ Plan B coming into focus | River Avenue Blues [...]

  22. Mike says:

    I hope CC signs with the Angels. If he really prefers the west coast he’s probably using the 140 mil offer as a bargaining chip. Cashman should really stick to his plan of developing the young kids. No more big ticket acquisitions please. If we let Hughes and Kennedy develop like we should, it would pay off better than overpaying for CC + AJ. I hope I’m not alone with this.

    • radnom says:

      Nah, you sign an ace like CC when you can, that doesn’t mean Cashman is giving up on developing the young kids.

      In fact, I would bet a good deal that signing CC makes it less likely that we would overpay for a pitcher like AJ.

      • whozat says:

        I hope so. I’d much rather pay Sabathia extra money than spend more on a guy that will most likely average 140 IP a season over the next five years.

  23. Reggie C. says:

    Over on MLBTR , there ‘s a little blurb on the Halos possibly gearing up to offer CC a “Johan like” contract , and that the Yanks might have to go a 7th year / + 160 mil to re-take the lead.

    Insane!! Yanks should at most go to 150 Mil and stay firm to the 6 year length. If CC walks away from that … let him. I’m sure Peavy, Sheets, and Lowe will still be in play.

    • radnom says:

      I think ~ 160/6 is where it is going to end up, hopefully frontloaded somewhat.

      • Matt says:

        Dam…I like CC, but not at like 26 a year….

        • radnom says:

          Eh, we were paying Giambi ~23 when his deal ended last year. I can deal with that.

          • Mike says:

            This is the insanity I’m taking about. God forbid we sign C.C. and he breakdown due to his massive girth. This could be Pavano^2 if Cashman isn’t sensible about this. Let the Angels take him if he really wants to go to the west. We already started with a large offer. Do we really want to move into insane numbers here?

            • whozat says:

              “This could be Pavano^2 if Cashman isn’t sensible about this.”

              Define sensible. Signing Burnett for 5 years? Going in with

              Wang (coming off a year-ending foot problem)
              Joba (limited innings, shoulder issue)
              Pettitte (shoulder, elbow)

              And then handing jobs to Kennedy and Hughes again? I am VERY MUCH in favor of developing those guys “like they should”, but that seems to include forcing them to use their secondary stuff to beat AAA hitters, because they’ll need it up in the bigs. At MOST you let them fight with everyone else in ST for the 5th slot. At best, you get one front-line guy and, then a second good guy on a short-term deal, and then Pettitte. Then, Kennedy and Hughes fight to be the first one up in the event of the inevitable injury, or to spell Joba for a couple starts, or whatever.

              While they’re down there, you make Kennedy pound the corners with his fastball and mix his breaking pitches better to avoid becoming predictable. You make Hughes work with his new cutter, and figure out how to keep guys from recognizing his curve out of his hand.

              • Mike says:

                Do you believe being held hostage by C.C. is a smart thing? How much higher are you willing to go to buy off C.C.’s infatuation with the west coast? If Wang, Joba, and Pettitte are all question marks C.C. alone won’t change our fortunes. I don’t think putting all our eggs on C.C. is the smart thing to do. We need to hope Hughes develops like Hamels and Lester did. We have to be smart and sign pitchers that don’t want a kings ransom to pitch for us. Sabathia has also been overworked by his previous teams and hasn’t been a guarantee in the playoffs either.

  24. Pat Moran says:

    Am I the only one secretly and quietly praying Manny ends up in NY?

    Whomever hit first between he and A-Rod might drill 65-70 homers with that kind of protection..

    If I were NY. He’d be my DH and occasional LF. I’d have Damon in center and live with Gardners defense, speed and lower batting avg. Melky would be the 4th OF, and I’d basically try to pawn off Hideki for anything I could get in return (literally). Doesnt TB want a good Lefty Dh bat?

    Make sure you bring back Pettite, you can still sign either Sheets or Burnett, preferably Sheets. That gives you Wang, Sheets, Joba, Pettitte and maybe Hughes or another guy holding down the 5th. Of course, they can also go after 1 maybe even 2 lower rotation starters (perez?)

    At any rate, Tex is the better long-term fit, sure. But his price and the years I think won’t work out here.

    Manny and A-Rod in the heart of the order would be sick. And Im sure Manny would be sick. And Im sure Manny would have extra motivation to stick it to Boston.

    • whozat says:

      I really don’t think manny cares about sticking it to anyone. He just cares about him. If he decides he should be extended a year from now, he WILL start dogging it out there.

      • whozat says:

        Well, not literally a calendar year from right now…but you get my point.

      • Chris says:

        The idea that Manny dogged it and hurt the team is BS. Manny hit .388/.512/.657 in the last 20 games before he was traded. I understand there are off-field issues to consider, but on the field he was still the same old Manny. Of course there was one ground ball where he loafed down to first base, but that’s a pretty small sample size.

        • radnom says:

          Um, no, stop apologizing for him, he calimed a phantom injury and tried to skip out on one of the most important series of the year.

          I know we hate the Red Sox and all, but they wern’t going to suspend him if they couldn’t trade him for no good reason. Especially since he was hitting well as you pointed out.

          • Chris says:

            Of course, that story about suspending him came out as he was going to free agency, and it was one more way they could screw him. I don’t know if there was actually any validity to it.

            As for the ‘phantom’ injury, I just don’t buy it. All of these leaks come from the Boston front office, and it’s in their MO to trash players on their way out and after they left.

        • whozat says:

          There are also the days that he refused to play. When they sent him for a knee MRI and he couldn’t remember which one he’d said was hurting him.

    • Matt says:

      I’ve always wanted Manny for a 3yr 75-80 mil deal. It’s a great short term thing. Live with him in LF and Damon in CF for a year.

      Then after 2009 when Matsui and Damon come off the books, you can play Manny as a DH for the remaining 2 years of his contract, sign maybe Holliday for LF and by then, hopefully AJax is ready for the job in 2010…

      I’d also go with Tex/Sheets….and what’s everyone think about…and don’t kill me, Braden Looper? He’s got 5th start written all over him, he’s pretty reliable, and durable, and avg…

      1. Damon, CF
      2. Jeter, SS
      3. Manny, LF
      4. ARod, 3B
      5. Tex, 1B
      6. Nady, LF
      7. Jorge, C
      8. Matsui, DH
      9. Cano, 2B

      How the fuck do you pitch around that?

    • radnom says:

      Pat Moran says:

      November 25th, 2008 at 5:10 pm:
      Am I the only one secretly and quietly praying Manny ends up in NY?

      .


      Get a brain morans

  25. Conan the Barack O'Brian says:

    From MLBTR, for what it’s worth on speculative DeJesus chattah:

    “Royals outfielder David DeJesus also interests the Cubs, but the source has the impression Dayton Moore would have to be overwhelmed to trade him. There seems a good chance DeJesus stays put this winter.”

  26. Peedlum says:

    I hear Carl Pavano is available. . . .

  27. Stewman23 says:

    Ken Rosenthal opens up a new can o’ worms…

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....onsid.html

  28. B.George says:

    My view on what the Angels are doing……they want Tex more then they want CC but arent willing to give him 10 years….they say that they are going to offer CC a contract in attempt to get Tex demands down.

    They traded for Tex last year because they couldnt score any runs and with Garret Anderson leaving you are going to lose two decent hitters from your lineup and replace it with what? Angels already have solid pitching hittings been the problem with them. I think they are just bluffing.

  29. JJKK says:

    Pipe Dream Lineup without CC – who I think is afraid of coming to NY

    SP: Wang, Joba, Sheets (3y/35m), Pettitte (2y/25m), Lowe (3y/45m),

    RP: Rivera, Woods (3y/33m), Coke, Marte

    1b-Swisher, 2b-Hudson (4y/35m), 3b-Arod, SS-Jeter, RF-Nady, CF-Kemp (for Cano), LF-Damon, C-Posada, DH-Manny (4y/85m)

    The contracts are just a guess, all could be debated but it would add about 92m. I can’t see if happening but…..it would be cool if it did

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