Nov
20
Yanks targeting more of Sabathia’s friends
ByRemember when Dwight D. Eisenhower ran for president, and “I like Ike” was the campaign slogan du jour? Well, me neither, but the Yanks seem to like Mike. According to the ever-popular Dan Graziano, the Yanks will attempt to reel in Mike Cameron from the Brewers to fill a perceived center field void. The Brewers recently picked up Cameron’s $10 million option, and the center fielder — much like Nick Swisher — is one of CC Sabathia‘s close friends. Still, an outfield of Xavier Nady, Mike Cameron and Johnny Damon doesn’t scream success to me.
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What would it take to get Cameron? I’m not in love with him as the CF, but he plays good defense (+8 on the fielding bible) and has a decent bat. If the price is right, I’d say bring him over.
Graziano also reported yesterday that the Dodgers were about to make an offer to CC no?
No. Honestly, give the guys a chance out there in centerfield. You can always try to get him for the stretch run (or somebody else for that matter) but we don’t need another pair of creeky legs out there, especially if it costs us prospects
I don’t think the Brewers would view this as a salary dump or they wouldn’t have picked up his option…I can see them asking for Gardner perhaps, and I’m not to sure how that fairs for the Yankees in the long run. Yes, Gardner is an unproven commodity in the bigs and may never put up the kind of numbers that Cameron has put up in his career, but if the logic is to have Cameron be a stop gap for one year until they give A-jax his shot at Center then wouldn’t be wise to have Gardner, a young cf on his way in as opposed to having Cameron who’s on his way out? Seems like that be better insurance in case Jackson is not ready for whatever reason next year, and it saves them the hassle in trying to dig up a CF for two consecutive seasons…
Maybe the Yankees should try to hire CC’s wife as bullpen catcher, and make his kid the batboy. I bet his grandma would be a better 3b coach than Meachem, too.
This is kind of stupid. 10 million bucks and a crappy prospect is too much for Cameron. And I really hope Cash is not going to get Cameron to entice CC to NY; that shouldn’t even be in the back of his mind.
This is kind of stupid. 10 million bucks and a crappy prospect is too much for Cameron.
no, it isn’t.
I agree. 10 million bucks and a crappy prospect for a guy who can give us legit, non-Varitekian offensive production and field all three outfield positions well above average, yet who does not command a 5 year/bajillion dollar deal is a great thing.
Which part of it is too much? The $10 million that isn’t yours, or the crappy prospect that’s crappy?
my ode to steve (a different one)
i enjoyed this post
The 10 million that limits our pursuit of Texiera if that is even in the cards anymore I don’t know.
if this is true, then i 100% agree with you that the Yankees should not add Cameron and go with Gardner.
i don’t really think it is true, b/c Teixeira is going to be looking at something in the $175M-$200M range and this is only $10M.
but if it is, i completely agree.
want to be clear about that.
there are trade-offs where you are willing to go with Gardner. but ALL ELSE equal, Cameron is MORE LIKELY to be the better player in 2009.
Or, by bringing in Cameron, that gives us the flexibility to deal Damon or Nady, move Swish to the OF, and sign Teix. I find it insanely hard to believe that 10 million dollars is going to sway the Yankees’ offseason plans one way or the other.
We are a better team with Cameron in center instead of Melky or Gardner. Plus, it’s a 1 year deal and we have AJax waiting in the wings. Gardner is basically a good pinch runner late in games. I say we go get him especially if it helps us get CC.
First, I don’t know what it would take to acquire Cameron. That is a big part of any reaction to this idea so the argument here is really incomplete.
Personally, I’d rather see what a platoon of Melky/Gardner can do. Both can play acceptable defense. Gardner’s got the speed. Combined, they’ll make a fraction of what Cameron makes. I think both could move over to one of the corner spots more easily to allow Damon/Nady to get the occasional day off.
I don’t know, I guess I just don’t think Cameron is needed. And CC will either come here because he wants to play here (and the money, let’s not forget) or he won’t because he doesn’t want to play here. I don’t really believe that adding more of his friends will sway his decision.
I agree. If the point is to get younger and more athletic, putting a 35 year-old guy out there does nothing except give you a stopgap which gives fans the illusion that you’re LOOKING TO WIN next year.
i don’t need that sort of reassurance. i’d rather have some adherance to a blueprint which guarantees me long-term success with this franchise.
say no to Mike Cameron, even if it means you lose a quarter of a game more without him last year.
doesn’t pitching and defense win ball games anyway, or does it only result in other teams beating us?
“i’d rather have some adherance to a blueprint which guarantees me long-term success with this franchise.”
Neither Melky nor Gardner are part of the blueprint to guarantee long-term success. Cameron would be keeping CF warm for Austin Jackson, who IS part of the blueprint of long-term success, while putting up much better offensive production and most likely better defense as well.
exactly. Brett Gardner would actually be preparing for his longterm role: 4th OFer.
and there is nothing wrong with that.
he’ll be quite good in that role and quite valuable.
Brett Gardner is not the Yankees longterm solution for CF.
true, but gardner prepares for the role much better if he plays CF for a substantial part of 2009. if he rides the bench, his development is delayed.
i don’t hate the idea of cameron, but i’m concerned that giving up $10M means the yanks have that much less to go after, say, texeira, and that we’d just be adding another older player who’s more likely to get injured and/or decline precipitously, only to get many ABs because of his price tag and reputation. i’m also concerned about whatever it would take to trade for cameron…we need to know that first, as aaron said.
agreed 100% on the Teixeira thing and on what it would take to trade for him.
It could give us flexibility to trade Damon or Nady though, shedding their salaries, which would enable us to move Swish to the OF and sign Teix, as I stated above. I can’t believe what negative reaction this potential deal is getting.
putting a 35 year-old guy out there does nothing except give you a stopgap which gives fans the illusion that you’re LOOKING TO WIN next year.
no, it also gives you more, ACTUAL wins.
it’s not an “illusion” that Mike Cameron will be worth more wins than Brett Gardner or Melky Cabrera in 2009.
but there is no way to guage how many wins gardner will bring. he is unknown. he could be good. who knows
sure, no question. and i love Gardner’s range in CF.
but, i don’t think any reasonable projection of the two would show that Gardner will be more valuable than Cameron next year.
that’s all we have right now.
but there is no way to guage how many wins gardner will bring. he is unknown. he could be good. who knows.
Adding Mike Cameron doesn’t mean that Brett Gardner is going to spend the year in Scranton and get minimal big league AB’s with which to continue proving himself.
What it does mean is that Melky Cabrera is going to spend the year in Scranton and get minimal big league AB’s with which to continue proving himself.
We can add Cameron and still find room for Gardner.
On second thought, I changed my mind. See below.
http://riveraveblues.com/2008/.....ent-209264
i’d rather have some adherance to a blueprint which guarantees me long-term success with this franchise.
Here’s part of that “blueprint”: if you can fill short term needs without sacrificing valuable long term prospects or committing long term dollars, you do it.
Mike Cameron is signed for one year. ONE.
Personally, i’d rather give 400 at-bats to Brett Gardner and see what kind of stat line he gives. The corner spots are set, for better or worse, and if we’re just waiting till A-Jax gets stronger and more pro games under his belt , then we should see what Gardner can do in the meanwhile.
Gardner is too good for AAA. If he can approximate his AAA numbers (BA/OBP) in the majors, then he’s a keeper. Sit Melky. Play Gardner.
gardner is a 4th OF. He is not a starting CF on a championship club. He’d be a perfect 4th OF for them this year with his ability to run and play all three OF positions.
Do you think the Brewers will want to make a trade with the Yankees if they sign CC? They appeared mad about the 140M offer.
Why would we want Cameron? If we are really looking for defense and pitching then Gardner and Melky are both good defenders and Cameron isn’t a big offensive upgrade. In fact Gardner’s speed and OBP are nice offensive weapons and will add energy to our offense.
Why spend $10M for a mild upgrade? Isn’t this why we bring up prospects?
This off-season started with Cashman saying that he was wanting to reduce payroll. With Mussina retiring we are probably after 3 out of Sabathia, Pettitte, Lowe and Burnett – which would cost about $55M per yr. We need that money for pitching.
If we are really looking for defense and pitching then Gardner and Melky are both good defenders and Cameron isn’t a big offensive upgrade
but he is.
If we are really looking for defense and pitching then Gardner and Melky are both good defenders and Cameron isn’t a big offensive upgrade.
Not to mention that Cameron in his prime was one of the best defensive CF in the history of the game and is not really a downgrade on that side from either Garder or Melky.
That was then, this is now. 27/09.
Correct.
“Not to mention that Cameron
in his prime was one of the best defensive CF in the history of the gameis still a superb defender today, probably better than Melky and definitely better than Nady, Swisher, and Damon and is not really a downgrade on that side from either Garder or Melky.”Not that Jayson Stark is a great source, but his article today suggested that there is no way Brewers trade Cameron to us anyways, apparently they don’t like us or something because of the CC offer, heh.
I think Cameron is an upgrade, but he’s not our type of player though. Isn’t he a free swinger that strikes out a lot and has a really low batting average pretty much every year? good power and speed though and plays above average CF, but he’s like a great guy for fantasy, not so much as a real player. I would rather see us save the 10 million and the prospects for something that’s more of an upgrade.
his article today suggested that there is no way Brewers trade Cameron to us anyways, apparently they don’t like us or something because of the CC offer, heh.
Please tell me you don’t seriously beleive any of that.
Ken Griffey would be a better bet then Melky or Gardner. Those two are just not everyday players. Good defense and speed isn’t enough to justify putting their bats in the lineup everyday. The Yanks need to upgrade, even if it is a short lived contract. The Yanks haven’t had a real center fielder since a young Bernie Williams. I think that flip flopping the position will bring more inconsistency in the offense.
don’t you pretty much have to guess it would take more than 10 mil and a crappy prospect to get him from the brewers? they wouldn’t have picked up his option to get a crappy prospect.
yeah, this is valid.
Probably.
I don’t see this trade going down.
True. And, while I’ve been pro Mike Cameron for a while, we were already down this road a month ago, weren’t we? And that amounted to nothing.
Here’s my thinking: While I argued above that you can add Cameron and still give AB’s to Gardner (which I’d like to do, for the future of this franchise), the Nick Swisher/Mark Teixeira situation is the determining factor.
If we can get Tex, then Swish firmly moves to the OF rotation, and I’m hesitant to add Cameron, because Cameron + Swish + Nady + Johnny leaves no AB’s for Gardner (unless we dump Matsui and move Johnny to fulltime DH…)
If Tex really takes a huge contract from BAL or WAS, then we keep Swish at first, and we can go with an OF of Cameron + Nady + Johnny + Gardner, and that’s doable.
Basically, I viewed Cameron as valuable positional flexibility insurance, and I view Swish as valuable positional flexibility insurance. Adding one is smart and allows us to be competitive without freezing out our young players (namely, Gardner). Adding two would be too much, unless we miss out on Tex (or can move Matsui).
Sorry for the circular nature of all that…
I think the interest in Cameron stems from not being comfortable with a possible black hole in the lineup without having Tex.
I think if Tex is acquired, the interest in Cameron goes away.
In any situation, I don’t think you stop going for a guy like Tex or even Cameron, or trade a guy like Matsui just to get Gardner at bats next year. That shouldn’t even be a consideration. Its Brett freaking Gardner, and its only one year.
I agree. If I’m Cashman, here’s what I do:
1) Keep going hard after Tex. Try and sell him on the idea that a 7 or 8 year deal from us is better than a 10 year deal from from the Nats or the Orioles, because those teams suck and you don’t want to make the same mistake ARod did and go to a crappy, losing franchise where you’ll be unhappy.
2) Keep an eye on the Cameron sweepstakes and what the price is. If the price gets reasonable (like, Melky and a fringe A-baller), go for it. Tex or no.
3) Gauge the interest in Hideki Matsui. If we do trade for Cameron AND add Tex, dump Matsui for non-prospects (like, say, the equivalent of Melky and a fringe A-baller) to get out from his roster-logjam and to avoid paying as much of his salary as possible. If we don’t get Tex, hang on to Matsui.
4) Or, fuck it all and just go over the top on both Tex and Manny, and start wearing this t-shirt (http://www.snorgtees.com/empir.....p-626.html)and flipping random people off because you’re Brian Cashman and you’ve got huge nuts.
Damn non-hyperlinking bullshit.
http://www.snorgtees.com/empir.....p-626.html
“What about all the contractors and construction workers who were killed on the second death star?”
My love for you is like a truck, BERZERKER!
Would you like some making fuck, BERZERKER!
Last point. People talk about having confidence in the outfield because they are used to outfielders driving a team’s offense and the infielders being solid defenders and single hitters.
Our catcher, 3B, SS and 2B are all superb offensive players, Swisher is a solid player who should rebound a bit when not hitting lead-off. Nady is a solid RF, Damon hit over .300 this yr, and Gardner is the sort of athletic player who will give our offense the sort of energy that could mix things up and unsettle opposing pitchers. Melky is a solid 4th outfielder, whose value can only rise with a chance to redeem himself this yr. Does that sound so bad?
Or should we go into a market with no real star outfielders available, and spend millions of dollars for a name just to reassure Hank and some fans that they’ve improved the team cos it needed a lot of zeros to make it happen?
Of our other every day player Cano and Nady are the least experienced and it looks like Hughes and Kennedy are losing their starting spots to some big money signings. Do we really need to sign another vet or can we give one young player a chance?
Why is everyone reacting like we are signing Cameron to a 5 year deal? Cameron is going to play here for a year or two so we can then “give a young player a chance” when he’s ready – his name is Austin Jackson. Gardner or Melky would play the same amount of time in center here that Cameron will. So, who would you rather have for that year to 2 years? Do you really believe Gardner or Melky is going to be everyday OF for this team for years to come? If either of them is, we’re in big trouble.
I disagree. Arod is a superb offensive player. Posada will hopefully be one again next year, but for a catcher of his age, there are no guarantees. Jeter is a very good offensive player for his position, but not the hitter he once was. Cano has huge potential, but was a putrid offensive player last year. Nady is a mediocre bat in the corner outfield. Damon is coming off a career year at age 34. There’s a decent chance he will regress next year. This was not a great offensive team last year. Without Giambi and Abreu, and with the old guys a year older, there’s no reason to assume it will be a great offensive team next year.
Cameron, offensively is very similar to Swisher. How many high strikeout guys, low batting average, slightly-above-average HR power guys do we need?
No one is touting Cameron as a long-term solution, just as a better option for next year than Gardner or Melky. Yes Cameron is a low avg, high strikeout, decent power hitter. But Gardner is a high strikeout, no power hitter. It remains to be seen if he can hit for any average or not.
that is not really the question.
the question is if Cameron is a better player than Melky or Gardner. and he almost certainly is.
this argument would carry more weight if Gardner wasn’t a high strikeout player himself.
The Brewers were asking for Kennedy and Melky!!!!! Does no one remember this from a few weeks ago when these rumors first surfaced? There is no way Cameron is worth kennedy and Melky. End of story
agreed. he is not worth Kennedy.
Still, an outfield of Xavier Nady, Mike Cameron and Johnny Damon doesn’t scream success to me.
fair point…but if your infield is posada, texeira, cano, jeter and arod, with matsui at DH, then that outfield screams an awful lot more like success, doesn’t it?
then again, the same OF, with gardner (or me, for that matter) instead of cameron, has a chance at success if it’s playing behind that infield.
but Teixeira isnt in the IF.
and you are completely forgetting about Swisher.
Cameron IS NOT a big upgrade offensively.
Cameron hit .243 with a .331 OBP. 25 HR, 17SB in 444 AB.
Gardner hit .228 with a .283 OBP. 0 HR , 13 SB in 127 AB.
but in AAA Gardner hit .296, with 414 OBP, 3 HR and another 37 SB.
So safe to say his numbers would end up somewhere between those figures, probably something like
.265 AVG, 370 OBP, 1HR, 40 SB,
It could even be better than that though. Bottom line is, Cameron offers more power to a team already featuring a lot of power hitters, but worse OBP and less athleticism to a team which keeps saying it wants to get younger and more athletic.
He might hit about 20 fewer home runs, but Gardner will steal about 40 bases and generally cause havoc on the base pads, scoring from 2nd on any single, from 1st on any double, hitting leadoff when Damon needs a day off, and giving pitchers a very different problem to deal with.
Wouldn’t you like to come to the plate with that guy running the bases? Think the pitcher is concentrating on you or him? Think the pitcher would really care about Cameron, who was caught stealing 5 times in 22 attempts last yr and can only get slower from here on in. I amn’t saying Cameron is a bad player, but do we really need to spend $10M on a guy who offers a power upgrade but is the same or worse in every other category?
Cashman’s fav three words – Pitching and Defense. Sounds like Gardner, and a lot of money for pitching is the best bet to me.
So safe to say his numbers would end up somewhere between those figures, probably something like
.265 AVG, 370 OBP, 1HR, 40 SB,
it is not at all “safe to say” that Gardner will put up a .370 OBP in the majors.
i’d say it is a gigantic long-shot.
He might hit about 20 fewer home runs, but Gardner will steal about 40 bases and generally cause havoc on the base pads,
20 HRs are WAAAAAY more valuable than 40 stolen bases.
also, Cameron is not slow and steals 15-20 bases a year himself.
I have a sneaking suspicion you are one of those people who has given up on IPK.
If I ever see you post anything along the lines of “WHO CARES WHAT HE DID IN THE MINORS! HE GOT HIS CHANCE AND MAJOR LEAGUE HITTERS DESTROYED HIM!!11!!1!!” I am going to personally hunt you down and end you.
I really don’t understand this double standard.
Especially because IPK has like…you know…talent…and Gardner is not really that projectionable.
Projectionable.
This word satisfies me.
I would love to come to the plate with Gardner on the bases. Problem is he was only on those bases like 28 percent of the time.
And, unfortunately for Brett Gardner, no major leaguer has ever ever ever improved his career offensive production from what he did in his first 127 AB’s during his age 24 year.
If you suck as a rookie in your first four months, you suck forever. That’s a fact. Irre-fuckin-futable.
Kind of like Pedroia….ROY, MVP later….and? And by no means do I see Gardner as Pedroia, but that theory isn’t set in stone.
Mr Snarky is in the Gardner Fan Club. He thinks hes the next Lou Freaking Brock.
Wrong. “Mr. Snarky” is in the historical analysis club, and he thinks people who write off people’s careers after 127 big league at-bats or 58 big league innings pitched are shortsighted fools. We’re talking about blip on the radar of life here. I think Brett Gardner could end up as Lou Brock, he could end up as Timo Perez, or he could end up somewhere in between. You’re the one leaping to a written-in-stone extreme, not me.
I’m perfectly willing to give young players a chance to discover who they are before I make grand, sweeping, declarative statements about them. You’re not. Which one of us is behaving rationally?
You’ll forget, like many rookies before him, Brett did much better the 2nd time around (around .290 and hitting with more power)…that is his history.
Cameron is not the answer, I don’t think we need him in CF…Put him in LF/RF. Most HRs are hit with no one on base, so he hits 20 HRs that’s 20 runs. Brett hits/walks and it is a 2 base hit, hopefully someone can knock him in which is 30/40 runs…plus, he was our best clutch hitter in Sept, I know clutch is nuts, but facts are facts.
I still think Brett should be given the chance to show what he can do…as Melky did. I think he is the type of player; once you let him in the line-up, you can’t get him out…he does the things that help win the games. So he won’t hit 5 HRs a year but, he will hit a few 2-3 base hits and (with enough ABs) steal 50+ bases while at the same time brain locking some pitchers along the way. I just think Brett is the better player of the two and 10+ years younger.
Most HRs are hit with no one on base, so he hits 20 HRs that’s 20 runs. Brett hits/walks and it is a 2 base hit, hopefully someone can knock him in which is 30/40 runs…
Ranger, i love you buddy, but this is off the charts batshit insane.
i mean, you just tried to argue that a walk or a single is more valuable than a HR.
you might want to take a step back and think this one through.
If the price is right for cam, I’d do it in a heartbeat. Unlike Ben K. Damon/Cam/X is an outfield I like…
Project the Batting Order as this:
1. Damon, CF
2. Jeter, SS
3. ARod, 3B
4. Jorge, C
5. X, RF
6. Matsui, DH
7. Cam, CF
8. Cano, 2B
9. Swisher, 1B
I’d love to see Cano as high as 5th, but fuck him and his major regression. I also love Swisher in the 9 hole, he walks a lot when he’s going right, although I see him with 25-30HR potential.
I know 20HR are more valuable than 40SB but my point is that Gardner ads value in a number of other ways, and so the number of runs he would be responsible for isn’t always going to show up in the box score. Even if Cameron still finished up adding a few runs, at $10M and some serious prosepcts to get him, why would we bother for such a mild upgrade?
Cashman came into the offseason saying the team wanted to cut the payroll. We don’t have a bottomless pit of money. We could make WWWWWWWWAAAAAAYYY better use of $10M by adding that to our offer for Lowe. Cameron might add 20 runs but Lowe would save a lot more than that.
And I admit .370 OBP might have been a tad ambitious for Gardner, but I think he’ll have a better OBP than Cameron, and whoever hits after him will also benefit from his presence running the bases (a real advantage for the no 9 hitter when Damon and esp Jeter are gonna hit a lot of singles at the top of the order).
Thank you…there are a few that still believe in Brett.27/09.
Even if Cameron still finished up adding a few runs, at $10M and some serious prosepcts to get him, why would we bother for such a mild upgrade?
everyone agrees that if the cost were “serious prospects” it would not be worth it.
Cashman came into the offseason saying the team wanted to cut the payroll. We don’t have a bottomless pit of money.
of course. and everyone agrees that if getting Cameron causes us to miss out on another player, they wouldn’t do it.
that is a completely seperate argument.
it’s a valid one, but it isn’t what we were debating.
Lowe is going to command 16 million a year, I’d rather just resign Pettitte for that much.
As far as Gardner, what does he create, he had like a .280 OBP….that’s fucking horrid.
Gardner is this off seasons Bubba Crosby.
Hahaha, sooo fucking true. Why is everyone in love with this guy (Gardner). He’s like the chick that’s ugly but you’re like “she’s got a great personality though”…haha.
Gardner is this off seasons Bubba Crosby.
Your finality is foolish.
About the only thing Brett doesn’t have over Cameron is the HR power. He will; walk more, better avg, more SB, more doubles/triples, hits leftys and rightys, will drive the pitchers wacko and throwing fast balls to the next hitter. Look where HR hitters have gotten us and the old O’s, Cleveland…zip! Very good pitching stops a HR team almost always.
Guys like Brett are the chopsticks that stirs the pot…The Scooter, Billy Martin, Knobby, Rivers, etc.,…there are a plethora of guys like him that have helped the Yanks win WS, none of whom were HR hitters. 27/09.
He will; walk more, better avg, more SB, more doubles/triples,
all of this is highly debatable.
i’ll concede he’ll probably hit for more average.
it remains to be seen if he will walk more. i’d guess not.
he will probably steal more bases.
i would say that he most likely will NOT hit more doubles/triples.
Hw will def. strike out more! Maybe it’s just me, but i cant get myself excited about a guy who is consistently in the top 10 in strikeouts and has diminishing stats.
I’d rather see what the kids can do.
The whole thing with signing guys like Cameron or Swisher because they are friends with CC in an attempt to woo him seems fishy to me. The guy is supposed to be a pro. If you need to surround the guy with his friends there is a good change he may be a headcase that can’t handle the pressures of NYC.
Im not a fan of Cameron…he strikes out way too much and people will turn on him in a heart beat if he doesnt hit 400 his first two months of the season….I am a fan of trading for DeJesus who is a young athletic player who can keep the spot warm for a year…stick him in the 9 whole for this year and next year bring Ajaxs up to play CF and put DeJesus in left and bat him leadoff when Damons contract is up……I would rather have a young player who hits for average,doesnt strike out and gets on base then a player who strikes out a lot hits for a low average and is getting old.
[...] maintained interest in Mike Cameron, it doesn’t appear that the Yanks’ braintrust is content with Melky Cabrera and Brett [...]