Comments on: Joe Gordon and the Hall of Fame http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/joe-gordon-and-the-hall-of-fame-6324/ A New York Yankees Blog Mon, 28 May 2012 04:12:34 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones a/k/a Ridiculous Upside http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/joe-gordon-and-the-hall-of-fame-6324/#comment-232110 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones a/k/a Ridiculous Upside Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:48:56 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6324#comment-232110 <b>I am of the opinion that 50 years from now, no one will be putting Rodriguez on the same level as Ruth or Gehrig or DiMaggio (NINE Championships in 10 trips to the Series) or Jeter.</b> If you really think that 50 years from now, people will put Derek Jeter but NOT Alex Rodriguez on the same level as Ruth, Gehrig, and DiMaggio, you're smoking something serious. Maybe Yankee fans, for sentimental reasons, but certainly not baseball fans as a whole. You're equating 4 world series rings and numerous playoff AB's with instant greatness and totally ignoring context. By that logic, Bernie Williams and Paul O'Neill will also be listed in the pantheon of great players before Alex Rodriguez will, and that is patently ridiculous. These posts of yours continue to make less and less sense. I agree with what JD said above, that the HoF is whacked and there's way too many people in the BBWAA who have no business having a vote, but I'm damn glad that you also don't have a vote. Saying that Derek Jeter is a better player than Alex Rodriguez, based on titles and "clutch stats" (which are directly related to clutch opportunities) is akin to saying that Emmitt Smith is a better runningback than Barry Sanders. It's ridiculous. I am of the opinion that 50 years from now, no one will be putting Rodriguez on the same level as Ruth or Gehrig or DiMaggio (NINE Championships in 10 trips to the Series) or Jeter.

If you really think that 50 years from now, people will put Derek Jeter but NOT Alex Rodriguez on the same level as Ruth, Gehrig, and DiMaggio, you’re smoking something serious. Maybe Yankee fans, for sentimental reasons, but certainly not baseball fans as a whole. You’re equating 4 world series rings and numerous playoff AB’s with instant greatness and totally ignoring context. By that logic, Bernie Williams and Paul O’Neill will also be listed in the pantheon of great players before Alex Rodriguez will, and that is patently ridiculous.

These posts of yours continue to make less and less sense. I agree with what JD said above, that the HoF is whacked and there’s way too many people in the BBWAA who have no business having a vote, but I’m damn glad that you also don’t have a vote.

Saying that Derek Jeter is a better player than Alex Rodriguez, based on titles and “clutch stats” (which are directly related to clutch opportunities) is akin to saying that Emmitt Smith is a better runningback than Barry Sanders. It’s ridiculous.

]]> By: tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones a/k/a Ridiculous Upside http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/joe-gordon-and-the-hall-of-fame-6324/#comment-232099 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones a/k/a Ridiculous Upside Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:39:37 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6324#comment-232099 I'll agree with all of that. I’ll agree with all of that.

]]> By: Ben K. http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/joe-gordon-and-the-hall-of-fame-6324/#comment-232088 Ben K. Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:20:45 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6324#comment-232088 <em>The issue of Citi Field Vs the New Yankee Stadium comes to mind.</em> What does this even mean? Are you saying coverage was unfair? That might just be because the Yanks built their stadium on valuable parkland that the team is slow to replace while the Mets built theirs on a parking lot next to undeveloped dump. The issue of Citi Field Vs the New Yankee Stadium comes to mind.

What does this even mean? Are you saying coverage was unfair? That might just be because the Yanks built their stadium on valuable parkland that the team is slow to replace while the Mets built theirs on a parking lot next to undeveloped dump.

]]> By: Januz http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/joe-gordon-and-the-hall-of-fame-6324/#comment-232085 Januz Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:18:47 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6324#comment-232085 I admit I am not an Alex Rodriguez fan (I never was). But I am not a person who buys into the media's concept of "Clutch" (Or much of anything concerning the New York Yankees). I am very aware of what the media thinks about the Yankees in general (Negative and (Or) jealous)). The issue of Citi Field Vs the New Yankee Stadium comes to mind. Alex Rodriguez, will end up breaking most all-time power numbers (Assuming he stays healthy). But NO ONE will ever say this is the greatest player of all-time. That belongs to one man........... George Herman Ruth. I am of the opinion that 50 years from now, no one will be putting Rodriguez on the same level as Ruth or Gehrig or DiMaggio (NINE Championships in 10 trips to the Series) or Jeter. I admit I am not an Alex Rodriguez fan (I never was). But I am not a person who buys into the media’s concept of “Clutch” (Or much of anything concerning the New York Yankees). I am very aware of what the media thinks about the Yankees in general (Negative and (Or) jealous)). The issue of Citi Field Vs the New Yankee Stadium comes to mind.
Alex Rodriguez, will end up breaking most all-time power numbers (Assuming he stays healthy). But NO ONE will ever say this is the greatest player of all-time. That belongs to one man……….. George Herman Ruth. I am of the opinion that 50 years from now, no one will be putting Rodriguez on the same level as Ruth or Gehrig or DiMaggio (NINE Championships in 10 trips to the Series) or Jeter.

]]> By: DanElmaleh http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/joe-gordon-and-the-hall-of-fame-6324/#comment-232073 DanElmaleh Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:05:38 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6324#comment-232073 I love stuff like this. Thanks for taking a look at this. I love stuff like this. Thanks for taking a look at this.

]]> By: DanElmaleh http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/joe-gordon-and-the-hall-of-fame-6324/#comment-232069 DanElmaleh Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:01:14 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6324#comment-232069 Sorry Rice and Morris are not in the hall for baseball reasons and it should be that way. They were both very very good, but neither was a hall of famer. Dawson was a better player than Rice and there are many others who are not in who are better than Rice. the problem is there is alwasys one person who was "alnost as good as" or "better than" but that is a slippery slope. It would be nice to have a good hall of fame discussion on here sometime. I just like to keep it more to the elite players; of which Rice falls just short. Sorry Rice and Morris are not in the hall for baseball reasons and it should be that way. They were both very very good, but neither was a hall of famer. Dawson was a better player than Rice and there are many others who are not in who are better than Rice. the problem is there is alwasys one person who was “alnost as good as” or “better than” but that is a slippery slope.

It would be nice to have a good hall of fame discussion on here sometime. I just like to keep it more to the elite players; of which Rice falls just short.

]]> By: Ben K. http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/joe-gordon-and-the-hall-of-fame-6324/#comment-232063 Ben K. Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:52:15 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6324#comment-232063 Two things. 1. Please use the reply to this comment function. It's there for a reason. 2. Jeter isn't more clutch than A-Rod. If you look at their respective careers, A-Rod has better numbers in almost any "clutch" situation, however you want to define it. So what you're saying is that you are buying into media perceptions of clutch as the standard for the Hall of Fame. How is that any better than going off of pure numbers? Two things.

1. Please use the reply to this comment function. It’s there for a reason.

2. Jeter isn’t more clutch than A-Rod. If you look at their respective careers, A-Rod has better numbers in almost any “clutch” situation, however you want to define it. So what you’re saying is that you are buying into media perceptions of clutch as the standard for the Hall of Fame. How is that any better than going off of pure numbers?

]]> By: Januz http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/joe-gordon-and-the-hall-of-fame-6324/#comment-232057 Januz Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:46:56 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6324#comment-232057 I cannot disagree with TSJC more. People who go strictly by numbers live in a vacume. I will take guys who produce in the clutch like a Jeter any day over a Rodriguez. I think of his play in the playoffs throwing Jeremy Giambi out at the plate. If he makes the same play against Oakland in June, no one remembers. But because it was against Oakland in October, everyone does. I think of Willie Mays's catch against Vic Wertz in the 1954 World Series. Some people consider it the greatest catch in baseball history. Guess who does not? Willie Mays. He said "I made better catches in my carrer". But because it happened in the World Series, people remember it. What makes Coopertown special, is people remember the history of baseball far more than the NFL, NBA, or NHL. There is little doubt in my mind, that more people are aware of Honus Wagner than Sammy Baugh, George Mikan, or Maurice "Rocket" Richard, even though Wagner's career ended decades before any of those athletes ever played a game. That is why I do not want baseball to turn into a numbers game, where even the greats have their numbers surpassed, and then they fade into oblivion (Like a Jim Brown). I cannot disagree with TSJC more. People who go strictly by numbers live in a vacume. I will take guys who produce in the clutch like a Jeter any day over a Rodriguez. I think of his play in the playoffs throwing Jeremy Giambi out at the plate. If he makes the same play against Oakland in June, no one remembers. But because it was against Oakland in October, everyone does. I think of Willie Mays’s catch against Vic Wertz in the 1954 World Series. Some people consider it the greatest catch in baseball history. Guess who does not? Willie Mays. He said “I made better catches in my carrer”. But because it happened in the World Series, people remember it.
What makes Coopertown special, is people remember the history of baseball far more than the NFL, NBA, or NHL. There is little doubt in my mind, that more people are aware of Honus Wagner than Sammy Baugh, George Mikan, or Maurice “Rocket” Richard, even though Wagner’s career ended decades before any of those athletes ever played a game. That is why I do not want baseball to turn into a numbers game, where even the greats have their numbers surpassed, and then they fade into oblivion (Like a Jim Brown).

]]> By: JD http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/joe-gordon-and-the-hall-of-fame-6324/#comment-232016 JD Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:47:32 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6324#comment-232016 Fair enough. I still think induction is way too strict and the people who vote should not have the privilege to do so, while most of them feel it's their God-given entitled right. The fact that they use awards that they give out to validate whether players are hall worthy or not is stupid. And the fact that they use blind milestones as markers also is dumb and adds as much to your argument as mine. Now Eddie Murray, for example, was a fine player for a very long time in which he was healthy enough that he didn't have his career shortened or prime years ripped away, so he compiled the necessary milestone stats that allowed for induction. I don't think anyone would or could argue that he was among the best at his position during his career, but the stats... I have no problem with Murray or Puckett getting in, but players who I would argue were better or at least as good are being left out. It's not right. And I don't think that it creates a slippery slope. There's no harm in letting the very good in, it's just a matter of where you draw the line, and right now there doesn't seem to be a line. One last thing...you can't really use the "prior Hall inductees" test either. You can't even compare the '80s with the offense happy '90s with any accuracy. It's patently unfair to compare Rice and Murphy with the '90s hitters that are starting to get in because they played when 35 hrs could have won a home run title some years. Fair enough. I still think induction is way too strict and the people who vote should not have the privilege to do so, while most of them feel it’s their God-given entitled right. The fact that they use awards that they give out to validate whether players are hall worthy or not is stupid. And the fact that they use blind milestones as markers also is dumb and adds as much to your argument as mine.

Now Eddie Murray, for example, was a fine player for a very long time in which he was healthy enough that he didn’t have his career shortened or prime years ripped away, so he compiled the necessary milestone stats that allowed for induction. I don’t think anyone would or could argue that he was among the best at his position during his career, but the stats…

I have no problem with Murray or Puckett getting in, but players who I would argue were better or at least as good are being left out. It’s not right. And I don’t think that it creates a slippery slope. There’s no harm in letting the very good in, it’s just a matter of where you draw the line, and right now there doesn’t seem to be a line.

One last thing…you can’t really use the “prior Hall inductees” test either. You can’t even compare the ’80s with the offense happy ’90s with any accuracy. It’s patently unfair to compare Rice and Murphy with the ’90s hitters that are starting to get in because they played when 35 hrs could have won a home run title some years.

]]> By: tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones a/k/a Ridiculous Upside http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/joe-gordon-and-the-hall-of-fame-6324/#comment-231996 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones a/k/a Ridiculous Upside Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:26:18 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6324#comment-231996 No, I wasn't saying that. I was merely pointing out the flaw in your analogy. Comparing the Hall of Fame, where induction is irrevocable, to a world-class museum, where inclusion is temporary, is a bit disingenuous. The slippery-slope argument of some Hall enthusiasts does have a bit of validity, since the Hall is for life and since potential inductees are judged for merit based on a variety of factors, one of which is similarity to prior Hall inductees. No, I wasn’t saying that. I was merely pointing out the flaw in your analogy. Comparing the Hall of Fame, where induction is irrevocable, to a world-class museum, where inclusion is temporary, is a bit disingenuous.

The slippery-slope argument of some Hall enthusiasts does have a bit of validity, since the Hall is for life and since potential inductees are judged for merit based on a variety of factors, one of which is similarity to prior Hall inductees.

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