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	<title>Comments on: Jorge, on the mend, could be that missing bat</title>
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	<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/jorge-on-the-mend-could-be-that-missing-bat-6350/</link>
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		<title>By: Kidwithanopinion</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/jorge-on-the-mend-could-be-that-missing-bat-6350/#comment-234638</link>
		<dc:creator>Kidwithanopinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:10:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6350#comment-234638</guid>
		<description>YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!But ew still need another bat. What about Matt Kemp.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!But ew still need another bat. What about Matt Kemp.</p>
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		<title>By: Bonos</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/jorge-on-the-mend-could-be-that-missing-bat-6350/#comment-234637</link>
		<dc:creator>Bonos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:09:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6350#comment-234637</guid>
		<description>How about a trade for Blalock or someone comparable.  Someone that&#039;s blocked at AAA.  It doesn&#039;t have to be Manny.  St Louis has too many OFs.  Hermida from the Marlins, Milledge at Washington, there are options.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about a trade for Blalock or someone comparable.  Someone that&#8217;s blocked at AAA.  It doesn&#8217;t have to be Manny.  St Louis has too many OFs.  Hermida from the Marlins, Milledge at Washington, there are options.</p>
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		<title>By: tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/jorge-on-the-mend-could-be-that-missing-bat-6350/#comment-234587</link>
		<dc:creator>tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:53:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6350#comment-234587</guid>
		<description>But the fact that most of those guys weren&#039;t signed to those contracts to be a DH isn&#039;t the point of contention.  The statement was, the Posada signing was a bad decision, because in the event that he became a DH, he&#039;d be producing at a level below that of a DH, and he&#039;d be getting paid at a level above that of a DH, hence, it was a bad signing.

And neither of those things are true.

Look, virtually no team ever signs a guy expressly to be a DH, most teams sign guys to play in the field somewhere and then use the DH to keep another good bat in the field.  So, the fact that Posada was signed to be a catcher and Sheffield was signed to be an outfielder, but both of them ended up as DH&#039;s making 13M undermines the whole &quot;the contract was bad because it doesn&#039;t make market sense.&quot; idea.

I&#039;ll entertain you making an argument that the contract was a bad idea because we shouldn&#039;t be paying 13M for an old DH OPS+ing 120 as some sort of intrinsic philosophical misallocation of resources, because there&#039;s some legs to that argument.  But you can&#039;t claim that the contract was a bad decision because it&#039;s not in line with the market or it puts us at a competitive disadvantage, because the contract is perfectly in line with the market, and if our competitors all have DH&#039;s producing at Posada&#039;s levels and getting paid what Posada&#039;s getting paid, there&#039;s no competitive disadvantage (although there is the opportunity cost of being prevented from securing a true competitive advantage instead...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the fact that most of those guys weren&#8217;t signed to those contracts to be a DH isn&#8217;t the point of contention.  The statement was, the Posada signing was a bad decision, because in the event that he became a DH, he&#8217;d be producing at a level below that of a DH, and he&#8217;d be getting paid at a level above that of a DH, hence, it was a bad signing.</p>
<p>And neither of those things are true.</p>
<p>Look, virtually no team ever signs a guy expressly to be a DH, most teams sign guys to play in the field somewhere and then use the DH to keep another good bat in the field.  So, the fact that Posada was signed to be a catcher and Sheffield was signed to be an outfielder, but both of them ended up as DH&#8217;s making 13M undermines the whole &#8220;the contract was bad because it doesn&#8217;t make market sense.&#8221; idea.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll entertain you making an argument that the contract was a bad idea because we shouldn&#8217;t be paying 13M for an old DH OPS+ing 120 as some sort of intrinsic philosophical misallocation of resources, because there&#8217;s some legs to that argument.  But you can&#8217;t claim that the contract was a bad decision because it&#8217;s not in line with the market or it puts us at a competitive disadvantage, because the contract is perfectly in line with the market, and if our competitors all have DH&#8217;s producing at Posada&#8217;s levels and getting paid what Posada&#8217;s getting paid, there&#8217;s no competitive disadvantage (although there is the opportunity cost of being prevented from securing a true competitive advantage instead&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: KO</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/jorge-on-the-mend-could-be-that-missing-bat-6350/#comment-234586</link>
		<dc:creator>KO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6350#comment-234586</guid>
		<description>Its not Posada&#039;s bat that worries you, altho&#039; I see him as #7 hitter, not 5 or 6. Its his &quot;D&quot;. If he can&#039;t throw adequately, the Yankees have a big problem. You don&#039;t want him as a first baseman, he&#039;s a below average hitter for what you want there, altho&#039; I&#039;d definitely take him over Swisher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its not Posada&#8217;s bat that worries you, altho&#8217; I see him as #7 hitter, not 5 or 6. Its his &#8220;D&#8221;. If he can&#8217;t throw adequately, the Yankees have a big problem. You don&#8217;t want him as a first baseman, he&#8217;s a below average hitter for what you want there, altho&#8217; I&#8217;d definitely take him over Swisher.</p>
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		<title>By: kimonizer</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/jorge-on-the-mend-could-be-that-missing-bat-6350/#comment-234582</link>
		<dc:creator>kimonizer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6350#comment-234582</guid>
		<description>considering how they approached CC I imagine this is the way they approaching the bat.  Think about 2010 just as much as next season.  Since there will be spaces opening up there is no reason not to take the financial hit this year knowing we won&#039;t be able to fill all the positions out of the FA market next year.  Long term planning FTW</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>considering how they approached CC I imagine this is the way they approaching the bat.  Think about 2010 just as much as next season.  Since there will be spaces opening up there is no reason not to take the financial hit this year knowing we won&#8217;t be able to fill all the positions out of the FA market next year.  Long term planning FTW</p>
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		<title>By: Count Zero</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/jorge-on-the-mend-could-be-that-missing-bat-6350/#comment-234467</link>
		<dc:creator>Count Zero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6350#comment-234467</guid>
		<description>Or put another way...

Let&#039;s say you can go into the way back machine and it&#039;s March 2008, but you have mysteriously forgotten everything that happened during the 2008 season. ;-)  

So, purely on the basis of past performance and your expectations going forward (is the player going to decline, etc.) -- how many of those contracts would you have taken?

Sheffield at $13.3 -- no effing way.
Thome at $15.6 -- no.
Thomas at $12.6 -- no effing way.
Ortiz at $13.0 -- yes.
Hafner at $8.1 -- yes.

You&#039;re justifying $13MM for a DH who has an OPS+ of 120 or so by pointing to a lot of bad contracts which I would never have signed in the first place. 

It&#039;s like justifying what Pettitte should get by pointing at Zito&#039;s contract and saying: &quot;Look what Zito&#039;s getting paid? Pettitte is definitely better than him!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or put another way&#8230;</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say you can go into the way back machine and it&#8217;s March 2008, but you have mysteriously forgotten everything that happened during the 2008 season. <img src='http://riveraveblues.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />   </p>
<p>So, purely on the basis of past performance and your expectations going forward (is the player going to decline, etc.) &#8212; how many of those contracts would you have taken?</p>
<p>Sheffield at $13.3 &#8212; no effing way.<br />
Thome at $15.6 &#8212; no.<br />
Thomas at $12.6 &#8212; no effing way.<br />
Ortiz at $13.0 &#8212; yes.<br />
Hafner at $8.1 &#8212; yes.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re justifying $13MM for a DH who has an OPS+ of 120 or so by pointing to a lot of bad contracts which I would never have signed in the first place. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s like justifying what Pettitte should get by pointing at Zito&#8217;s contract and saying: &#8220;Look what Zito&#8217;s getting paid? Pettitte is definitely better than him!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Sciorsci</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/jorge-on-the-mend-could-be-that-missing-bat-6350/#comment-234464</link>
		<dc:creator>Sciorsci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:07:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6350#comment-234464</guid>
		<description>Can you be certain that&#039;s absolutely the right way to do it, or is it possible that it was just a function of the best approach at acquiring talent in those particular seasons?

On one hand, it&#039;s nice to wait and see what you&#039;ve got and/or who might get injured, etc. (who would have guessed the Yankees would have acquired Pudge last season if you&#039;d have asked them last December), but that also adds to the uncertainty of what you&#039;ll be able to acquire.  You don&#039;t know which teams will be looking to dump contracts, or what contracts they&#039;ll be looking to dump; you may have to sacrifice prospects (and if the Yankees are in a dire situation offensively, they might be forced to sacrifice fairly valuable prospects) or assume a bad contract, etc.  There are a variety of reasons why it is not necessarily in the team&#039;s best interest to wait until they see what they&#039;ve got and/or get a feel for the in-season trade market.

The more I think about it, the more I&#039;d be satisfied with Dunn on a reasonable contract (3/$39M?).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you be certain that&#8217;s absolutely the right way to do it, or is it possible that it was just a function of the best approach at acquiring talent in those particular seasons?</p>
<p>On one hand, it&#8217;s nice to wait and see what you&#8217;ve got and/or who might get injured, etc. (who would have guessed the Yankees would have acquired Pudge last season if you&#8217;d have asked them last December), but that also adds to the uncertainty of what you&#8217;ll be able to acquire.  You don&#8217;t know which teams will be looking to dump contracts, or what contracts they&#8217;ll be looking to dump; you may have to sacrifice prospects (and if the Yankees are in a dire situation offensively, they might be forced to sacrifice fairly valuable prospects) or assume a bad contract, etc.  There are a variety of reasons why it is not necessarily in the team&#8217;s best interest to wait until they see what they&#8217;ve got and/or get a feel for the in-season trade market.</p>
<p>The more I think about it, the more I&#8217;d be satisfied with Dunn on a reasonable contract (3/$39M?).</p>
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		<title>By: Sciorsci</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/jorge-on-the-mend-could-be-that-missing-bat-6350/#comment-234457</link>
		<dc:creator>Sciorsci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6350#comment-234457</guid>
		<description>But in terms of expectations, it was always far more likely that Cabrera would be an offensive drag than Cano.  Cano had already proven himself to be a valuable offensive contributor heading into 2008, whereas Cabrera had seen mixed results.  In other words, both Cano&#039;s and Cabrera&#039;s disappointing 2008 seasons can be referenced interchangeably for the purposes of determining what went wrong last season, but Cano&#039;s poor output was more surprising, at least in my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But in terms of expectations, it was always far more likely that Cabrera would be an offensive drag than Cano.  Cano had already proven himself to be a valuable offensive contributor heading into 2008, whereas Cabrera had seen mixed results.  In other words, both Cano&#8217;s and Cabrera&#8217;s disappointing 2008 seasons can be referenced interchangeably for the purposes of determining what went wrong last season, but Cano&#8217;s poor output was more surprising, at least in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Count Zero</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/jorge-on-the-mend-could-be-that-missing-bat-6350/#comment-234453</link>
		<dc:creator>Count Zero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:57:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=6350#comment-234453</guid>
		<description>Somewhat disingenuous. 

Sheffield at 13.3 was horrid and a terrible decision by the kittens. 

Matsui was supposed to be an outfielder not a DH. 

Ortiz had a terrible 2008 and may be past his best years, but in 2007 he had an OPS+ of 171 and in 2006 it was 161. That&#039;s what he was getting $13MM for. 

Thome has a career OPS+ of 148 -- that&#039;s how he got that ridiculous contract. (Posada =124). 

All the guys you are saying  &quot;he&#039;ll get a raise&quot; will definitely get them, but those raises won&#039;t put them anywhere near $13MM. 

The reality is, the only one of those guys getting $13MM last year who was definitely worth it was...oh wait...it was none of them. Except maybe Ortiz but he missed a lot of time. The best DHs last year were both paid less than $10MM.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somewhat disingenuous. </p>
<p>Sheffield at 13.3 was horrid and a terrible decision by the kittens. </p>
<p>Matsui was supposed to be an outfielder not a DH. </p>
<p>Ortiz had a terrible 2008 and may be past his best years, but in 2007 he had an OPS+ of 171 and in 2006 it was 161. That&#8217;s what he was getting $13MM for. </p>
<p>Thome has a career OPS+ of 148 &#8212; that&#8217;s how he got that ridiculous contract. (Posada =124). </p>
<p>All the guys you are saying  &#8220;he&#8217;ll get a raise&#8221; will definitely get them, but those raises won&#8217;t put them anywhere near $13MM. </p>
<p>The reality is, the only one of those guys getting $13MM last year who was definitely worth it was&#8230;oh wait&#8230;it was none of them. Except maybe Ortiz but he missed a lot of time. The best DHs last year were both paid less than $10MM.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2008/12/jorge-on-the-mend-could-be-that-missing-bat-6350/#comment-234432</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jackson better cover ground like a roadrunner for that defense to work...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jackson better cover ground like a roadrunner for that defense to work&#8230;</p>
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