Manny happy returns

Open Thread: Who gets the Hall call?
Economic uncertainty shows in MLB-wide arbitration decisions

As I expected, the Yanks’ decision to decline arbitration has fired up the Manny-to-the-Bronx rumors with Jon Heyman leading the charge. I’ll have more on this tomorrow — law-school work permitting — when I get around to delving into the Abreu decision, but I’m not at all surprised to see Heyman’s pursuing this line of reasoning right now.

email
Open Thread: Who gets the Hall call?
Economic uncertainty shows in MLB-wide arbitration decisions
  • Seymour

    Maybe Boras’ boy Heyman knows a little something? Or maybe he’s just as bored in this Hot Stove season as we are…

  • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

    Law school is for sissies.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

      Jazz flute is for little fairy boys.

      • Ol Dirtay

        You look like a blueberry!

      • Mike Pop

        You’ve got a dirty horish mouth

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

          Go back to your home on whore island.

        • Ol Dirtay

          I tried to get an interview but they said no, he is a live bear, he will literally rip your face off. Come on, Ching King, you’re making me look stupid! Panda jerk!

          • Bryan

            Well, I could be wrong, but I believe diversity is an old, old wooden ship that was used during the Civil War era.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

          I make poop noises with my mouth… BPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBTTTT!!

          • Mike Pop

            I will take your mother out to a nice seafood dinner and NEVER call her again!

            • Ol Dirtay

              You woke up the bears…why did you do that!?

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                I’m storming your castle on my steed, m’lady.

                • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

                  By the beard of Zeus.

                • http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v621/134/99/513321182/n513321182_2118948_7574.jpg Nady Nation

                  Unique New York. Unique New York.

                • Mike Pop

                  Sweet Eli Whitneys Nose

                • http://www.ilikemygirls.com Billy Beane

                  Great Oden’s Raven!

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  AAAAAAAAAAAAAA I’M IN A GLASS CASE OF EMOTION!!!!!!

                • Ol Dirtay

                  Uncle Jonathan’s corn cob pipe!

    • Brian

      I’m going to have to defend law school here. Everyone in my law school can definitely kick your ass.

  • A.D.

    This very well may signal that the Yankees are going to spend big on FA, and didn’t want any sudden BS 1 year contracts, and guys clogging up the 40 man.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      My thoughts exactly.

      To briefly elaborate: I think they see a very cool market for Abreu and are concerned that he might actually accept arbitration and stick around. That could clog up their real plans, and they’d rather not chance it.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

        DAMNIT BEN WIT YOUR PRO-CAHSMAN SPIN CANT YOU SEE HE’S TEH DUMBAZZ YOU SUX0R YOU GOTTA GIVE ARB WE LOOSE TEH PICKS?!?!?!??!??!??!?

        • A.D.

          Its Cash, he would have just spend those picks on busts or guys who don’t sign, or were overdrafts… just like every pick

    • Mike Pop

      Ya man thats what I thought.. Go hard after the top guys now.. CC Tex and Manny

  • http://www.bronxbaseballdaily.wordpress.com Rob Abruzzese

    I kind of got the opposite impression from this news. At least that’s how it made sense to me. I figured the Yankees would only withhold arbitration offers if they weren’t planning on diving deep into the free agent market.

    But I’m probably wrong. They wouldn’t be the Yankees if they cared about draft picks.

    • steve (different one)

      I figured the Yankees would only withhold arbitration offers if they weren’t planning on diving deep into the free agent market.

      i don’t see what one thing has to do with another.

      • christopher

        i think its the exact opposit. add this to the teams desire to cut payroll and it doesnt look to good for us

  • steve (different one)

    yeah, i don’t follow this reasoning.

    the Yankees were never interested in bringing Abreu back. was that not obvious before today?

    they weren’t going to give him 2-3 years and they weren’t going to pay the $16-18M he could get in arbitration.

    • Reggie C.

      The Yanks’ disinterest in coming to 1 year terms with Abreu was well known; the extent of that disinterest (not even offering arb) is the surprise.

      Abreu was going to sign with a club AFTER guys like Teixeira and Manny signed. If Abreu ends up signing a 3 year deal , then today’s decision is not going to go down well. At a time when we need draft picks to improve the weak hitting depth in the farm, Cash has decided to play it TOO safe.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

        But again, you can’t assume that a team that signs Bobby to a deal during the next month would have done so if they had to surrender a first round pick.

        The pick compensation complicates matters.

        • A.D.

          Definitely, it has to help Abreu’s stock on the FA market… Ibanez will still cost a pick.

        • Reggie C.

          I just can’t believe that someone with Abreu’s skills will sit on the market b/c a team doesn’t want to lose draft picks. Heck … its likely a team with protected draft picks goes after Abreu. I guess in those situations we only get that team’s supp pick, but that’s still an early round pick we didn’t have before. I know why we had to part with Abreu, but to let him go in this manner doesn’t even marginally improve this club with picks.

          • A.D.

            we would get the 2nd round pick then

            • A.D.

              well would have if they offered arb

          • Chris

            You mean his inability to catch a ball within 20 feet of the wall?

      • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

        I think what today proved is that Cashman feels there is NO way to trade Abreu when on a one year 18 million dollar deal.

        The real story to me here is how broken the whole arb process is. This is what is killing baseball, not free agency. Bobby Abreu in any reality based world is not worth 18 million a year, not even for one year.

        I am happy that possibly these good players but not great players salarys might come back to some reality based numbers. That is the real reason ticket prices have gone up five to ten fold in the last fifteen years.

        Now back to the main point I think that Abreu did not get offered arb because say we sign Tex or Manny and CC. No way can we add yet another guy that we have no room for and can not trade for 18 mill. If anything I still think Matsui or Damon has a good chance to get dealt if we sign Manny.

  • ortforshort

    Its absurd to think that there’s no market for Abreu. He’s a .300 hitter who scores and knocks in 100 runs every year, hits 20 homers, gets 40 doubles, draws lots of walks, steals 20 bases. Its going to be hard to replace him. If the Yankees get Ramirez, they’ll more than have replaced Abreu. If not, there will be a big hole in the lineup where Abreu was – and please don’t think that the .240 lifetime hitting Swisher in any way replaces Abreu’s bat.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

      A month ago, I would have agreed with you that Abreu was a lock to decline arbitration and take a multiyear deal… now? Not so sure. Bobby could easily decided to accept arb and get 18M for one year, thinking that that 18M plus whatever he makes next offseason on that contract outweighs the chance that he hits the market and can’t get anything to materialize with an AAV north of 15M.

      We know that Cashman does value draft picks, and thus, his decision to not offer arb to these guys is probably influenced by thinking that they would have accepted arb, fearing a weak market for the non-star players.

      • christopher

        problem wih that is, i dont think cashman mmade this decision

        • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

          Who did the tooth fairy?

  • steve (different one)

    just to show that Cashman isn’t the only IDIOT!1!!! who doesn’t understand the arb process, Adam Dunn was not offered arbitration.

    think about that. Adam Dunn.

    • A.D.

      Makes that trade make less sense

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

        They can’t afford him, can’t even offer to risk having him accept arbitration.

        • A.D.

          I know, but it still makes the rental make a little less sense, part of the reason they were willing to part were some of the players were that they would get 2 picks

        • steve (different one)

          but doesn’t the fact that they actually fear that a player as young and valuable as Dunn could accept arbitration tell you something is screwy in this market?

          surely Dunn is much more attractive than Abreu….

          • A.D.

            Kinda crazy that Dunn hit exactly 40 hr for 4 straight years.

            You would think that Dunn would be more valuable, younger, better OPS, both aren’t very good fielders. Unless you love BA or 20 more stolen bases a year, you would probably want Dunn

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              Unless you’re J.P. Riccardi.

          • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

            Actually I think what it shows you is that there has been something screwy with the whole process and the entire market for baseball and sports talent for years as there was with housing, the stock market and even commodities in the last couple of years.

            This correction is only that so far, the deep fear has yet to set in.

            CC would be smart to ramp up his process and get him a signed contract before people start questioning the stars of this market. It only looks like there are two true possible landing places for him, and either one might be out of Tex and Manny because of it.

            There will still be big big deals for star top of the line talent but everybody else better tighten their belts.

    • Brooklyn Ed

      now that Dunn doesn’t require a loss of draft pics, I’m in for signing him and slot him either 3rd or 5th, and in the L/RF.

      • Reggie C.

        You’d have to trade either Damon or nady to make it happen. I think the market around Dunn isn’t weak , as he’s the best slugger among not-offered arb group. It wouldn’t be a bad move , especially if Cash doesn’t intend to make a serious run at Teixeira.

        I don’t think ANY team is willing to trade for matsui, so it’d have to come down to trading either Damon or Nady to make room. i’d do it.

        • steve (different one)

          that depends if you can live with Damon in CF or not.

          • A.D.

            or Swisher in CF

          • Brooklyn Ed

            I agree, and have Brett or Melky as a defensive replacement in the late innings.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

          You’d have to trade either Damon or nady to make it happen.

          Or, trade Matsui and move Damon to DH.

          • Reggie C.

            I agree. Trading Matsui would be preferable. Yet, i’m sure Mats’ trade value isn’t great, and it’d be alot easier to move Nady.

            I’d want to hold onto Damon and trade Nady or Mats. Damon could be replaced by Carl Crawford after ’09 right?

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

              It’s not “easier” to move Nady, you just get more in return for him.

              If all you’re primarily interested is clearing out a spot in the roster and the lineup for Dunn, we can move Matsui if we don’t ask for much, which we don’t have to.

              • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

                I am not sure in this market if you could get anything for Matsui, let alone not pay most of his contact. If he proved he was healthy in spring training that may help. I believe he also has total no trade rights correct?

                Damon would be hard to move from the perspective who would be our leadoff guy if we made such a deal?

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

                  Say we paid half of his salary (6.5M). You could get a team like the Mariners or White Sox to give us a low or mid-level prospect for a quality bat like Hideki on a one-year, 6/5M deal, I’d assume. That’s a steal in this baseball economy.

                  I think the no-trade would cease being a factor if Hideki knows that he would be riding the bench for us in 2009.

                • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

                  Yeah we would have to eat at least half but if he is unhealthy teams might want us to eat the whole thing.

                  Why would Hideki want to go to Seattle? I do not see that happening. Only places I see him open to going (and this is just guessing) would be Giants or Mets (and I am not sure either would want him at this stage in his career)

          • Chris

            I think the better choice would be to put Dunn at DH most days. That way you keep at least a passable defensive outfield.

  • A.D.

    Why I would have liked the picks for Abreu, so that if one panned out I could feel even better watching him being overpaid by someone (much like every time I see Tom Gordon warm up I smile and think Joba), Abreu just being overpaid by someone will have to be enough.

  • Reggie C.

    Is Matt jones from Jaxsonville any good? Plax replacement maybe?

    • A.D.

      He is talented, only his 3rd year at WR, and having his best season (Yardage wise) this season, but given he’s a former 1st round pick and still developing I doubt they want to give him up.

      You can’t really replace Plax’s talent easily, the G-Men will just have to hope Hixon keeps playing well and Smith, Moss, and Manningham continue to develop and improve

      • Mike Pop

        BUT MATT JONES DOES COCAINE !!!

        I think losing Plax is gonna hurt the G-Men for the playoffs.. But thats just my opinion

        • A.D.

          Probably, why Hixon has done very well in the brief replacement stints, he doesn’t have the same size as Plax, they don’t have someone to throw the fade to in the end zone.

          Additionally likely Plax will cause more matchup problems & get more double teams against playoff defenses then Hixon will

          • Reggie C.

            If the Giants cut ties to Plax, the passing game will suffer in the post-season. Eli will suffer. Hixon is good but he hasn’t started much and though his break away speed is an asset , i’d like to see him catch against a double-team. The G-men need Plax on the field for another SB run.

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

              Don’t you think it’s a little naïve to bemoan the passing game in the post-season right now? Plax has been arraigned on charges that carry a mandatory 3.5 year sentence, and there are issues surrounding a cover-up involving him, Pierce and the hotel. He may just plead guilty to the one charge to avoid the others, but the idea that Plaxico Burress is somehow going to be on the Giants and on their postseason roster come the postseason is a pipe dream.

              I think the team is good enough to win without him, but this severely hinders their Super Bowl chances. Just look at how they did in the red zone this past weekend.

              /end Route 120 Blues.

              • http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v621/134/99/513321182/n513321182_2118948_7574.jpg Nady Nation

                I don’t think the red zone argument is the main issue. After all, even with some red zone struggles this week, we still won handily and completely dominated the game. What we will miss most is the double teams that Plax drew, as he completely opened up the rest of the field for both the run game and the other receivers.

                • Mike Pop

                  Nice point there NN.. I hear what your saying and agrena e with it but final point is that its the playoffs and you want the best and most talented team out there because anything can happen.. Now I know people are gonna bring up Shockey but isnt that different because he hated Eli and gave Eli shit all the time.. Same with Tiki

                  Wait Whos Tiki ?

                • http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v621/134/99/513321182/n513321182_2118948_7574.jpg Nady Nation

                  You definitely want your best squad out there, and by no means am I suggesting that the Giants are a better team without Plax. However, since depth is one of the team’s strongest points, I think they have capable players to come in and step up their games to make up for Plax’s absence. Are any of them individually as talented as Plax? Of course not. But, as a whole unit, I don’t see any reason why they can’t continue to execute their game plan and succeed. It is very interesting to see how this will all play out though, no doubt.

                • Mike Pop

                  Damn did we just agree on something ? Is the apocalypse close ?

            • http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v621/134/99/513321182/n513321182_2118948_7574.jpg Nady Nation

              I dunno about that. The Steelers, one year after losing Plax, won the Super Bowl with very similar offensive personnel as the current Giants roster. Great running game, solid veteran possession receiver (Amani/Hines Ward), speedy number 2 WR option (Hixon/Randle-El), good pass-catching tight end (Heath/Bossman) and solid QBs who can make big plays when needed. Throw in their top 5 D and you still have a legit SB contender, in my eyes.

          • Mike Pop

            Ya Hixon is good and all but is he THAT good ? I dont think so

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

          Hmm… Matt Jones has cocaine connections, Plax has gun connections… they should team up and start a home-based business!

  • A.D.

    Not even arb to Mussina… guess they didn’t want a Favre situation!

  • http://jobatheheat jobatheheat

    any word on burrel getting offered arb yet

  • al

    lets see what cash can do.. before all the speculations.. cc yes.. but after that theyre are holes but they “could” be filled internally..

  • christopher

    I doubt this appens with half-dollar hal calling the shots, biut

    if this move leads to manny – i am all for it. I see two free agent hittes out ther that could, with the addition of 2 top pitchers make this team great.

    Manny – 3 years 28 million with vesting option for th 4th (backload part od year for when Damon is gone.
    Sabathia – the obvious pick-up 25 (i think they settle on 6 years 150)
    Burnett/Sheets/ Lowe in that order. 15 million (they pass on burnett if he wants more) I see sheets being an attractive alternative
    and adam dunn – 14 over 4..speaking of dunn. may even take a 3 year deal feeling he is worth mpre than this years offseason cliimate will begin.
    With the loss of beteit, the team needs a legit back-up infield. Sorry but i have no faith in a career minor leuger who had one good Ramon Vazquez aho plays both middle infied posotions adequetly, Hit .290 lats season with an OBP of .328 and a SLG of .358 with 40 rubs scored and 44 RBI in 100 1bgames, unfortunatly has no speed which will be a theme for this team.

    Third pitcher ie hughes or Aceves, although i woulfd like to see them pick someone up off the scrap heap. 5-6 million dollar strarter in there becasue of the limins innings on huges and Joba. Would Freddia Garcia take that? Would randy take a 1 year deal like that?

    That is 82 million whixh would still leave the team underbugett, but tradind matsui brings them right back down to the 70 milllion threshold. With Dunn and Manny there is no need for him.

    HR RBI RUNS BA OBP BB K SLG OPS
    player 1: 48 146 105 .251 .339 81 199 .543 .882

    plsyer 2: 40 100 79 .239 .386 100 164 .472 .889

    guess who player 1 is – Ryan Howard 2nd in last years MVP. the other is Dunn. The biggest differences, especially in runs, can be attributed to a horrible offense
    Dunn is far and away the biggest bargain on the market and Manny is the secod most impactful FA next to CC.

    Other guys i would love the team look into:
    Milton bradley – if they lose out on dunn or manny. This guy can absoltly rake. If i were tampa i would be all over him
    Rocco baldelli – cant understand why they dont want this guy. past yankee teams were known for their benches – justin christian doesnt cut it. cant understand why the guy isnt interested. He cant play everyday but can certainly play on off days for damon against tought lefties.
    Kerry Wood – can be this years joba and moes replacemnt in 2 years. the market for closers is down and it may time get him.
    If he has any chance to pitch again take a shot on prior with a lieber like deal with an option

    • steve (different one)

      if the Yankees are afraid Abreu might accept arbitration because he won’t do better in FA, and the D-Backs have the same fears about Dunn, who is going to trade for Hideki Matsui and take his entire salary?

      also, what do you think the Yankees’ budget is?

      you have racked up a payroll of like $225M there. that’s not happening.

      $195M is much more realistic.

      its also about $50M higher than the next highest team, yet the owner is “half dollar hal”? give me a break.

      there are going to be a lot of disappointed yankee fans this offseason with crazy, unrealistic expectations.

    • http://jobatheheat jobatheheat

      Deffinately get Dunn . Not to interested in Manny.Has a serious attitude prob. Cost to much.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

      Reading your posts makes my eyes hurt. I’m sure you have a great point in there. Sadly, I’ll never read it.

  • christopher

    it looks like – from all the teams not offering arbitration – that the agents are finding little interst in free agents

  • Ivan

    Well from the look of things they really have confidence that the offense will bounce back and want to go pitching heavy. Could we see a rotation of:

    CC
    Wang
    Joba
    Burnett (I have a feeling for a while he’s gonna be a yankee)
    Hughes.

    • Mike Pop

      I think we have got to bring Pettite back

  • http://jobatheheat jobatheheat

    The arb deadline is midnight. What time zone. Waiting to hear if burrel gets arb oferred

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

      B-U-R-R-E-L-L

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      As of two hours ago, it was expected that Burrell would get an arb offer. We’ll know as soon as the Phillies announce it. The deadline passed 15 minutes ago.

      • whozat

        Wait…why do we care about Burrell? If we want a defensively-challenged slugger, there are better options…Manny on a shorter deal, or Dunn who is younger. I’d lean towards the latter.

        Again, assuming no Teixeira.

  • http://jobatheheat jobatheheat

    If Burrell doesnt get offered arb that should bring down the price on Dunn. Since both wouldnt require loseing a draft pick.

  • http://jobatheheat jobatheheat

    Burrell denied arb offer

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      Just coming here to say that.

  • Reggie C.

    When Tex signs elsewhere should the Yanks look to add Adam Dunn as a big slugging alternative?? Dunn wasn’t offered arbitration tonight so we’re essentially talking years and dollars.

    If Cash indeed is working on a budget and doesn’t want to commit +20 ML to Manny’s bat, then Dunn emerges as a cheaper alternative. Since we’re no longer emphasizing BA on these boards, what does wOBA tell us about Dunn?

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

      wOBA pretty much confirms what we’ve been saying – Dunn is a damn productive player.

      Career wOBA is .383, two best seasons are .403 (2004) and .399 (2007), tow “worst” season are still damn good at .353 (2003) and .365 (2006)

      http://www.fangraphs.com/stats.....F#advanced

  • Bonos

    People did anyone consider that there was lukewarm interest in Dunn and still is. Would there be a reason? The guy is a pylon. Baseball is also about defense. Dunn, Manny and Damon. Now there’s an OF. 65 mil of DH with Matsui. Oy.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Mr. Snarky Irrelevant Non Sequitur Jones

      Dunn, Manny and Damon would be a brutal, brutal outfield, you’re absolutely right. They may give up 100 runs defensively as a unit.

      Luckily for us, they’d also be freakishly productive offensively, and probably score 400 runs offensively as a unit. All three of those guys are so drastically far above average offensively that it’s easily worth their defensive shortcomings.

  • http://brewcrewnews.com/ Brew Crew News

    Not only did they free up room to potentially get Manny but they are also a serious candidate for Sabathia and possibly Burnett. I know the Brewers will not land Sabathia. The only other large bidder on him is the Angels. I believe the Yankees will be his new home. Payroll needed to be cleared up. With all of the big offers the Yankees offered this off-season so far I knew they would be cutting some big names.

  • Johnny Bklyn

    We need C.C. and Manny and and make a trade for a C.F.