Dec
06

Torre may get Hall call

By

At this stage in his career, with 13 straight playoff appearances and four World Series rings as a manager, Joe Torre is probably the most deserving non-Hall of Famer around. While he never received more than 22 percent of the vote while on the player ballot, he is again up for eligibility under the rules of the Veterans Committee, and this time, as MLB.com’s Tom Singer explores, he just might make it in. The Veterans Committee is tasked with considering a candidate’s “total contributions to the game of baseball,” and I think that Torre has a legitimate case for inclusion in Cooperstown. Despite his unpleasant departure from New York and his recent lack of playoff success, I’d vote for him given the chance.

Categories : Asides
  • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

    Wait, why is he not considered a shoe-in?

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      Because in three of the last six years, the Veterans Committee has elected no one. They’re a little picky.

    • The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

      Isn’t the extent to which they are allowed to take his managerial career severely limited by the fact that he’s up for induction as a player and not as a manager? He’ll be up for induction as a manager after he retires from managing and will be a shoe-in.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

        See below.

  • Eric

    If they pick Maury Wills I’m gonna be livid.

  • DonnieBaseballHallofFame aka they guy who has well documented history of belligerent thickheadedness and anti-intellectual character assassinations

    “total contributions to the game of baseball,”

    I think their sound be a wing with that name of it. I would put Don Zimmer in the hall before I put Torre in. No disrespect of Torre intended but their are better managers than he is not in the hall of fame. His player career obviously was not a hall of famesque career.

    • radnom

      Oh, but you think Don Mattingly SHOULD be in the hall of fame???
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      Just kidding…………please don’t seriously start an argument about this.

      • steve (different one)

        too late.

    • Ron

      “their (sic) are better managers than he is not in the hall of fame.”

      Just out curiosity, who?

    • steve (different one)

      His player career obviously was not a hall of famesque career.

      i really want to have a civil conversation about this, but i feel that i HAVE to point this out:

      player A/B
      BA: .297/.307
      OBP: .365/.358
      SLG: .452/.471
      OPS+: 128/128
      ABs: 7874/7003
      Hits: 2342/2153
      2B: 344/442
      3B: 59/20
      HR: 252/222
      RBI: 1185/1099
      BB: 779/588
      TB: 3560/3301

      Both players won an MVP, both won a batting title.

      player A played more games at more demanding positions, winning a gold glove at catcher before moving to 3B than 1B, but player B was an excellent defender himself at 1B.

      they are practically identical offensively, and while player A would get the nod for postitional value, for the sake of argument, i am willing to say that the difference in positional value washes out with the quality of player’s B’s defense at 1B.

      these players are practically identical. there is an argument that player B was better, but there is an equally valid argument that player A was better.

      i’m sure you’ve figured this out already, but player A is Torre and player B is Mattingly.

      no name calling, no insults, just the facts.

      i respect your opinion that Mattingly was better, but i’m not seeing any objective argument whatsoever that Torre was “obviously” not a Hall of Famer while Mattingly is.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      When you considering playing career + managerial career, it’s pretty hard to make a case that Torre doesn’t belong in the Hall. He also had playing career totals remarkably comparable to Don Mattingly’s while being an All Star catcher.

      • The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

        Am I wrong or isn’t he up for induction as a player and not as a manager? Won’t he be up for induction as a manager after he retires from managing (i.e. aren’t the two careers separate entities, for HOF purposes)?

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

          Per the Veterans Committee Rules. Rule 6(b) states:

          Those whose careers entailed involvement as both players and managers/executives/umpires will be considered for their overall contribution to the game of Baseball; however, the specific category in which such individuals shall be considered will be determined by the role in which they were most prominent. In those instances when a candidate is prominent as both a player and as a manager, executive or umpire, the BBWAA Screening Committee shall determine that individual’s candidacy as either a player (Players Ballot), or as a manager, umpires, executive or pioneer (Managers/Umpires Ballot, or Executives/Pioneers Ballot). Candidates may only appear on one ballot per election. Those designated as players must fulfill the requirements of 6 (A).

          Make of that what you will. Torre is on the ballot now as a post-WWII player, but the committee is instructed to consider him as both a manager and a player. This strikes me as only slightly less confusing than the personal jurisdiction and federal question jurisdiction rules I’m attempting to learn for civil procedure.

          • The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

            Yeah… I guess the Veterans Committee can take his managerial career into account. Just seems strange to consider his managerial career now when he’ll come up for election, as a manager, after his managerial career has ended.

            So if the Veterans Committee takes his managerial career into account and elects to induct Torre, the player, this year, what hat goes on the plaque?

            • The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

              I tend to abstain from HOF discussions but this case brings up an interesting wrinkle that I think the HOF should deal with. I’m all for Torre going in as a manager (and I think his case as a player is actually more compelling than many think), but I don’t think his managerial career should be considered until it has concluded.

              • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

                Right now, Torre wouldn’t be elected as “just” a player though. He’d go in because the Veterans Committee looked as him as the combination of Joe Torre as a player + a manager. In that case, he goes in with a Yankee hat on.

              • steve (different one)

                i think i agree. how can we evaluate a career if it hasn’t ended?

                what if Torre manages for 10 more years and his teams average 60 wins a season for a decade?

                obviously that’s not going to happen, but that would certainly tarnish what he accomplished in NY a bit, no?

        • steve (different one)

          it does seem odd to elect him as a manager while he is still managing, but just from what Ben posted above, it seems like, no, he isn’t being considered just as a player:

          The Veterans Committee is tasked with considering a candidate’s “total contributions to the game of baseball,”

      • DonnieBaseballHallofFame aka they guy who has well documented history of belligerent thickheadedness and anti-intellectual character assassinations

        I thank everybody for falling for my trap.

        I wanted Snarkmeister to post the stats and as planned IT HAPPENED.
        For the people that think Torre has a shot as a player and because he was a player why should Donnie not get in? (I only ask so more people talk about the subject) If Donnie never gets in I know my presence on this board and to those of which are bombarded in real life by me talking about it create some sort of dialog on the issue. This is my cause :)

        But to me this really was not totally about Donnie. I am NOT old enough to have seen Torre play. But from people that I respect their opinion on ballplayers (The White Rat for one) have said that Torre was a piss poor Catcher and only was in the MLB because of his bat. From all accounts Torre could really hit the ball. Anybody I have ever spoken to, read on the subject, plus the stats draw that picture for me.

        I am not and should not be the judge of Torre getting in as a player, I would hope that his peers could make the proper decision. I never saw the guy play, not once so I am only going on what people say and stats.

        I am no Torre hater. I have a ball sitting to my right that Mr. Torre gave me along with some others. I know one day he will get to the hall with a Yankees hat on. I was for Buck getting canned and Torre coming in. I was for the canning of Joe (although I think it happened years and years too late) and was not pleased with who got the job (but I was a fan of Joe G. as a player, color commentator and coach)

        Again I think there should be a wing in the hall for combo guys. This room would have more people than the others in my make believe world.
        It would cut down on the borderline guys getting in for their player career.

        Torre with his playing, managing, color commentating, and tea commercials would get in this wing.

        Thank you and goodnight!

        • The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          “I thank everybody for falling for my trap.”

          How did you set a trap? By your presence in the thread, alone?

          • DonnieBaseballHallofFame aka they guy who has well documented history of belligerent thickheadedness and anti-intellectual character assassinations

            “By your presence in the thread, alone?”

            Yup. By me saying words like “obvious” and all that come on. You know dude was sitting on his computer getting agitated and excited.

            • The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

              What a tangled web you weave.

              • DonnieBaseballHallofFame aka they guy who has well documented history of belligerent thickheadedness and anti-intellectual character assassinations

                LOL yeah it required a ton of thought and a well timed message board post. Oh how tricky.

                Its tricky to rock a….

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

          Not too hard to understand that being a catcher and putting up those offensive numbers is a lot harder and more impressive than being a first baseman and putting up those offensive numbers. I’d offer up some comparisons to other Hall of Fame types, but you don’t seem to care much for comparisons.

  • steve (different one)

    Torre has a better case than some think as a player. as a manager, he is in.

    • Ron

      Torre had a very good career, but definitely not HOF worthy. If Torre’s career is HOF, then so is Jim Rice’s – and Jim Rice did not have a HOF career.

      • steve (different one)

        Joe Torre played 903 games at catcher and 515 games at 3B.

        Rice was a left fielder.

        i’m pretty sure Rice is going to get in this year, and while i personally don’t think he should, i’ve made my peace with it.

        Rice and Torre have the same career OPS+ in a similar number of ABs, yet Torre is way ahead of Rice when you add in positional value.

        • steve (different one)

          just for the record, i’m not saying Torre should or shouldn’t get it.

          i’m just saying guys like Torre, Rice, and even Mattingly all fall somewhere around the “line” for getting in.

          some or them or none of them may be on the side of the line for induction.

          but of the 3, i’d probably put Torre closest to that line, if not over it.

  • Manimal

    Name the coach of a dynasty in anysport that was not put in the hall. Exactly.

    • radnom

      Terry Francona isn’t in yet.

      • Ron

        2 titles in 5 years is now considered a dynasty?

        • Peter Gammons

          Yes.

          • DonnieBaseballHallofFame aka they guy who has well documented history of belligerent thickheadedness and anti-intellectual character assassinations

            LOL classic.

            That is my problem with managers. Francoma is a mook and he has been the manager of a team that won two WS titles. Sometimes a team can win partly in spite of their managers, and I am sure some can win partly because of them.

            And BTW
            2 in 5 is no Dynasty. I need a back to back MINIMUM to be considered a Dynasty.

            • Whitey14

              I agree two in five years is not a dynasty, but Terry Francona and Joe Torre both inherited excellent teams, no?

              It’s tough to say one is better than the other, but mostly each was the perfect fit for what their team needed at the time.

              Hopefully, when it Terry’s turn to go the Red Sox won’t have waited a year or two too long. I still think he horribly mismanages the Red Sox bullpen on a pretty regular basis, but his winning percentage and two World Sereis titles cover it up.

        • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.