An Andy Pettitte musing

A Nady trade proposal
City gives up luxury suites

So this Andy Pettitte article from Joel Sherman seems to be making the rounds, and again, I’m forced, against my will, to confront a Post article. Basically, Sherman’s premise is that the Yanks are going to respond to Pettitte’s supposedly rejection of their $10-million offer by — wait for it — lowering their offer.

Sherman writes:

Andy Pettitte‘s chances to return to the Yankees New York Yankees have dropped precipitously because in the aftermath of the Mark Teixeira signing the organization is now strongly inclined to lower the $10 million offer that the lefty already has been resistant to all offseason, the Post has learned.

Pettitte recently rejected the Yankees’ latest $10 million overture, and now – barring a wave of sentimentality by the Yanks or significant change of strategy by either side – that dollar figure very likely will not be offered again. A reduced offer almost certainly would assure the end of the prideful Pettitte’s second tour with the Yankees.

Multiple sources refused to divulge if the offer had been lowered already. But one executive briefed on the matter described both the chances of making a deal and the $10 million bid as on life support. Another executive said he did not believe that the $10 million offer was there to be taken any longer.

So in one paragraph, Serhman speculates — “the Post has learned” — that Pettitte’s offer will be lowered. Two paragraphs later, no one on or off the record will confirm to him that this is indeed anything more than a move of his creation. One person says the deal probably won’t happen; the other says the offer is off the table. No one at talks about lowering the offer.

Now, if the Yankees want Pettitte back, they won’t lower the offer. They’ll probably just keep it on the table while continuing to promote the idea that the Phils — Coke and Hughes — will be given shots at the rotation and that Ian Kennedy and Al Aceves will get long looks as well. They’ll make Pettitte aware of the fact that he doesn’t deserve and shouldn’t be making $10 million and that the teams knows this and is prepared to move on.

Meanwhile, Yankee bloggers aren’t that heartbroken over the Pettitte saga. Alex Belth thinks it would be “a nice luxury” but doesn’t feel that the Yankees necessarily need Pettitte. Brian at In Mo We Trust takes Pettitte to task for thinking he is worth more than he really is. I still wouldn’t be too shocked to see Pettitte back in pinstripes, but I won’t be disappointed if he’s not. I don’t, however, for a second believe that the Yanks are going to insult the man by lowering their offer.

A Nady trade proposal
City gives up luxury suites
  • LiveFromNewYork

    In yesterday’s interviews Cash seemed to suggest in a very indirect way that the negotiations will be on-going. He wasn’t saying that much because it seems that he needs some room to move one way or the other. But in on-going negotiations you don’t LOWER an offer that has been rejected as too low. “Oh you didn’t like that one? How about this one?”

    • MattG

      Why not? I do it with my kids all the time, when they are acting like whiny brats.

      (dig at Pettitte, not a serious strategy suggestion)

      • Nady Nation

        Why are you placing all the blame on Pettitte being a “whiny brat” and not any on his agents? This is called negotiations. Don’t you think it’s possible that the Hendricks are telling Andy not to take the offer yet since it’s their job to try to get the most money for their client? How did you feel about A-Rod when he opted out of the biggest contract ever just to get MORE money, and then upon realizing that he had no one that was willing to pay him that much, he came crawling back to the Yankees feeding everyone the bullshit that he only wanted to be a Yankee for the rest of his career? Do you still hate A-Rod now? The bottom line is, if Andy comes back and has a nice bounceback year as our 4th starter, this won’t mean shit.

        • Ryan S.

          I agree if Pettitte comes back, no one will ever care about these negotiation hiccups. Still, Andy has always been in pretty good control of his agents. Pettitte is responsible for his own decisions like any other man. His agents are there to serve his will, not vice versa. Otherwise Andy would’ve been playing for us in 2004 as well.

        • MattG

          No, I’m good with A-Rod. He wants money. I can understand that.

          Pettitte is either whiny, or a hypocrite. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt by calling him whiny.

          This is act 4. Act 1, 2003. Act 2, 2006. Act 3, 2007. Act 4, 2008. New off-season, new public negotiations filled with “I want to play for the Yankees so bad, but they don’t want me enough” nonsense. This is a helluva lot of drama for a league-average starter.

          • Jay CT

            And NadyNation- Why do you assume that Pettitte cannot tell his agents, “Look, I want to be there or I do not want to pitch at all. 10 million is fine.” Does he not have that ability? Those agents only get paid if he gets paid. He is acting whiny

        • jsbrendog

          yes i still hate arod. but i hated him before that. and have. and always will.

          • Ryan S.

            Why hate the best offensive player in the American League when he’s on your team? Its not like A-Rod is a bad person or whatever.

            • Bo

              I guess he needs to set records and win the MVP every single season. I mean come on. What more does the guy have to do in NY besides winning a title? It doesnt hurt that they finally got him some starting pitching.

            • jsbrendog

              because he sucks. blah blah oh but hes the best hitter ever etc etc yada yada yada. dont care, he sucks. i never wanted him ont he yankees and i stilldont. i celebrated when he opted out and was upset when he came whining and crawliong back after no one else owuld pay his egotistical ass.

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Right now, you know who we are without ARod on the team?

                The Tigers. Or the Twins, or the Blue Jays, or some other pathetic quasi-contender who thinks they have a shot but really don’t have a shot at shit.

              • I Remember Celerino Sanchez

                I know it’s a very unpopular view on this blog, but I’m with you jsbrendog. I would prefer not to have A Rod on the Yanks.

                I am a big believer in using stats to evaluate players. And I acknowledge that based on numbers, A Rod will go down as one of the great hitters of all time.

                But as much as sabermetric guys hate the ideas of chemistry and clutch, I do believe in them. I think some guys, by the force of their personalities, can bring a team down or rasie them up. I think A Rod is one of those guys that is so self-involved, he hurts a team’s ability to play winning baseball, especially in the post-season.

                In an unrelated note, I think the Yanks made a bad business deal essentially bidding against themselves when they gave him that huge contract.

                Again, I know I’ll be flamed for this, but I just believe that it’s not a coincidence that A Rod hasn’t peformed well in the post-season, nor has his teams.

              • Jay CT

                One of the dumbest comments ever. You would have opted out to. The chance to make 300 million, EVERYONE would have. People leave jobs all the time. Grow up kid

                • Ryan S.

                  I know A-Rod has been unsuccessful in the playoffs since the 2004 ALCS (he did fine before that, its not like he’s ALWAYS sucked). But I just cannot believe, nor do I have any reason to believe, that one of the greatest hitters of all time (possibly one of the top 5 ever by the end of his career), that he will continue to perform poorly in October. I was overjoyed that A-Rod came back to us after he opted out … he’s worth the money, and he’s a good teammate. Just because he’s tabloid fodder and goes to bed with Madonna doesn’t mean he’s more self-involved than any other superstar. AND he’s the king of frosted tips as Joba claims – that’s gotta count for something, right?

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  FWIW, they used to say the same things about Barry Bonds (he’s dynamite in the regular season but a headcase and can’t produce in October when it counts.)

                  Then he dropped a .356/.581/.978/1.559 on the Braves, Cardinals, and Angels and damn near won the 2002 World Championship by himself.

                  ——————————————

                  Speaking of damn near winning a World Championship by yourself, did you hear that I just won the Inaugural RAB Fantasy Football League Championship? It’s true.

                  Unlike Barry Bonds and his near miss, I didn’t have any scrubs like Livan Hernandez, Ryan Jensen, Tsuyoshi Shinjo or Shawon Dunston sucking it up, keeping me from the title that was rightfully mine. No, I metaphorically OPS’ed 1.559 like Barry all year long and steamrolled right to the title with the greatest of ease.

                  And yes, since you’re curious, me being akin to 2002 Barry Bonds does make Mike, Joe, Jamal, Rafi, jsbrendog, Punk in Drublic, and SAMIAMISPORTS very similar to the 66-96 2002 NL West cellar dwelling San Diego Padres. They sucked just like Tom Lampkin, Deivi Cruz, D’Angelo Jimenez, Wiki Gonzalez, Bobby A. Jones, Dennis Tankersley, and Adam Eaton. Frankly, it was a little insulting of them to think they could challenge me, they should have just folded before the season began.

                  Because unlike the 2002 San Diego Padres, I’m a champion.

                  [ Fantasy Football Championship Bragging Rights Name Drop #24 of 1000 ]

    • Ryan S.

      Yeah, Cashman worded it like “He hasn’t accepted our offer, we haven’t accepted his offer” or something like that. It was definitely implied that negotiations are on-going

  • A.D.

    I go along with many blogger sentiments, I like Andy Pettitte, I’d like to have him back, but I’m fine with one of the kids getting a spot.

    Lowering the offer would be an excellent idea if they want to guarantee Pettitte doesn’t come back, he’s already said he doesn’t really need the money, so it’s not like he has to work.

    • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a The Last Don

      “he’s already said he doesn’t really need the money, so it’s not like he has to work”

      My problem with this statement is the man is not going to work for 10 million, but he needs more? WHY? For what? The whole thing is silly on his part. He got a good offer from the only team he wants to play for (that is if you believe Andy anymore, I for one do not, he is a proven liar)

  • LiveFromNewYork

    Also last year the fans welcomed Andy back warmly after the PED hoopla. I wonder how they will react to him in his first start this year (if he takes the mound in pinstripes).

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Whether he eventually signs for 8M, 10M, or 12M, I don’t think we’d care much.

      The bulk of his career outweighs this monumentally insignificant negotiating tiff.

  • I Remember Celarino Sanchez

    I don’t think any clear-thinking person would believe the Yanks are going to lower their offer to Pettitte. I think there are only two logical conlcusions as to what is going on:

    1) The story is made up to sell papers. We are talking about the Post, after all. It wouldn’t be surprising in the least.

    2) Some Yankee official “leaked” this idea to the Post (knowing the Post would print anything) as a way of trying to scare Pettitte into taking the $10 million.

    Maybe there is another explanation, but I can’t think of it.

    My two cents: I’d like Pettitte back. Last season taught us that you need a lot of starting pitching, and you can’t count on kids handling the load.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      2) Some Yankee official “leaked” this idea to the Post (knowing the Post would print anything) as a way of trying to scare Pettitte into taking the $10 million.

      BigBankHank: Hey, you know what would be funny? Let’s say we’re going to LOWER our offer.
      Michael/Hal: What? That’s crazy. And insulting.
      CashMoney: True. We’d never actually lower the offer… would be kinda funny, though.
      BigBankHank: Yeah. Too bad no paper would be dumb enough to print the story.
      Michael/Hal: Except, of course, for–
      All: THE POST!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH….

      CashMoney: Too good. I’ll have Levine get “Sperman” on the phone. He’ll eat that shit up.
      Michael/Hal: Awesome. I’m going to look over those CHONE predictions again. I’ll be in my office if you need me.
      BigBankHank: I’m going to go eat 20 ham sandwiches and bang some River Avenue Hookers. I’ll be at the LQ with my man Plaxy later if you need me. Hit me on my celly, dawg.

      … aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, SCENE!

      • Ryan S.

        I like the thought of Michael Corle…err, Hal Steinbrenner, judiciously studying advanced statistics in his dimly lit office while Hank is in the next room with 3 hookers, running around to the room to the theme song from Benny Hill.

      • jsbrendog

        and no reference to winning the fantasy football league. shiocking

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          Patience, young padawan.

      • I Remember Celerino Sanchez

        Dude, I think you were there.

        That is, I think, a transcript.

  • UWS

    “We’re going to give you 24 hours.

    And just to show we’re being serious, we’re going to give you 12 hours.”

    Seems like a fine strategy to me.

    • Ryan S.

      I like this strategy … but there’s just no good reason for us to give him a deadline. We have our plan B already setup, so no harm in keeping a standing offer to him should he change his mind.

      • steve (different one)

        i don’t know if this is certain, there are still other vets out there who could probably be had for pretty cheap.

        if they don’t get andy, maybe they move on a Paul Byrd or Looper.

        • Ryan S.

          I’d prefer renting a veteran for a year too. Obviously you can still pursue other options with that offer for Andy still available, and if you get a guy like Byrd, well than of course Andy’s $10M is off the table.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      And just to show we’re being serious, we’re going to give you 12 hours.

      Homer: Oh, Fat Tony?!? You mean the mob only did me a favor in order to get one in return?

      I will say GOOD DAY to you, sir!

  • CountryClub

    Based on previous comments I know that most people disagree with me, but I think not giving Andy the 13 – 16 mil that it would take to bring him back is very foolish. The team has 2 pitchers that they feel comfortable about pitching a full season. AJ, Joba and the other kids are all huge question marks. They will either sign someone that they shouldnt to a 2 or 3 year deal or they will go with how things are currently constituted. Both options are a big risk. Let Andy be the 4, let Joba be the 5 (since he has to be in innings anyway) and let Hughes pitch a full season in AAA (unless he’s needed to fill in for an injury). People keep throwing Pettitte’s second half numbers out there. yet he pitched on a bad shoulder because that’s what the team needed him to do. A stint on the DL probably would have done him wonders. But he didnt have that luxury last year. And since he’s been given a clean bill of health…I see no reason to be more concerned about him than any other pitcher.

    • steve (different one)

      but $13-16M was too much in last year’s market, so it’s way out of line in this year’s market.

      Burrell just signed for $8M.
      Giambi just signed for $5M.

      you have to update your thinking. the elite FA’s are getting paid. the next tier are getting crumbs.

      Pettitte is in that second tier.

      $8-10M is fair, $10-12M is generous, and $13-16M is completely out of market.

  • http://www.stilettosetsports.com Mike

    For sentimental reasons, I’d like to see Petite back. However, I don’t think we’ll be missing him too much if his agent and him don’t see what he’s really worth now.

  • Bruno

    Numerous times last year Pettite said if he pitched in ’09 it wouldn’t be about the money, yet he won’t take $10m?!? What a crock! I love(d) the guy but this is really annoying. It’s not quite Spreewell saying he has to feed his kids, but c’mon. People in this country are struggling to make ends meet, and even in baseball players are taking paycuts (other than the top 3 FA of course) but Andy doesn’t want $10m?!? Screw him.

    • eric

      This is a guy who picked Roger as his best friend in life. He’s clearly not very smart or a good judge of character, not that fans should give a darn.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Maybe Andy’s holding out for 10M plus a copy of the Roger Clemens-Mindy McCready sex tape DVD.

        • Ryan S.

          I still think we should offer $10M + Kei Igawa and call it a day. I think Pettitte would sign if he could get a Japanese man-servant for a couple years.

  • C.Panella

    While I dont think it time to put a deadline on the deal with andy, I do think its time to get Andy moving along on a decision…Andy would be great to have to eat up innings but only at the right amount of money and 10 mill sounds right to me…If not then we give the kids another shot Phil/coke/aceves/kennedy one of them is bound to be useful next year no?

  • frank

    Why not take a flyer on Paul Byrd for the 5th spot? He’s a crafty veteran, has pretty much remained healthy, is AL tested and probably could be had on a 1 year deal so there’s no long term risk/commitment.

    • Ryan S.

      That’s not the craziest thought in the world. I’d rather one year of Paul Byrd or Randy Wolf than most other options, if either would accept a one year deal that is. Assuming Wang and Joba are in the rotation in 2010, which I am, I think its important we keep that final spot open for Hughes that year, so any 1 year deal for an innings eater that gives us an ok shot to win every 5th day is perfectly acceptable to me.

    • jsbrendog

      crafty veteran usually = mostly garbage/washed up

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Andy Pettitte, 2008 FIP: 3.71
        Paul Byrd, 2008 FIP: 5.14

        • jsbrendog

          is that a stat where higher is better or worse?

          • jsbrendog

            ok so i’m right?

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              Higher is worse, and yes, you’re right. FIP is like ERA irrespective of defense or park, just the pitcher by himself. Andy is not the pitcher he was in his prime, but he’s still better than league average, and looks to have had an unlucky 2008.

              Paul Byrd is a Ponsnerian disaster. He may have legally died a few years ago, and they’re keeping him propped up like Weekend at Bernie’s.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Independent_Pitching_Statistics

              • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a The Last Don

                Paul Byrd has been injecting himself with the stuff in the syringe that was in Bernie’s pocket.

                Bernie was the first HGH user.

                • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a The Last Don

                  And I mean Bernie as in the movie not our former CF. Do not want anybody to start up the old Bernie V. Donnie cyberwar for the wrong reasons.

    • A.D.

      Why don’t we take a flyer on one of the numerous starters in our system that can probably put up decent numbers as a #4 or #5, instead of a guy who is ready to retire.

  • Glen L

    I really disagree with the “its not a big deal if we don’t get Pettitte back” crowd. Between uncertainty over the number of innings Joba can definitely give us, Burnett’s DL history, and a bunch of young kids vying for the 5th starter spot currently, it seems that it would greatly behoove the team to bring back a guy you can reasonably count on for 180-210 innings.

    Imagine a scenario where Burnett’s on the DL, Joba’s shoulder has flared up, Hughes is injured for the umpteenth time, Coke proves to be a bullpen piece, and Aceives and Kennedy flounder … Cash will be right back on the phone with Sir Sidney (or some equally unsettling option) … sure that’s a lot of “IF’s,” but is it that implausible of a scenario?

    You can never have enough pitching and not bringing back a guy you can count on for innings over a few million bucks, in my humble opinion, is a mistake

    • eric

      Fair points, but you really have to give Hughes a shot now. Imagine if the Sox never opened a spot for Lester becasue they wanted “insurance.” You can go get a mediocre innings eater in July, if you need one (and that’s all AP is now).

    • UWS

      magine a scenario where Burnett’s on the DL, Joba’s shoulder has flared up, Hughes is injured for the umpteenth time, Coke proves to be a bullpen piece, and Aceives and Kennedy flounder

      You know, if something like that happens, no one will save them, not even Sandy Koufax, let alone Pettitte.

      • whozat

        “You know, if something like that happens, no one will save them, not even Sandy Koufax, let alone Pettitte.”

        That’s not true. That, essentially, happened last season. You’d have CC, Wang and Pettitte fronting the rotation, which is still pretty decent. Sure, they wouldn’t necessarily be real good, but you fill in with guys like Giese, Horne, Chase Wright, and start looking around for some guys to get you by until someone comes back.

  • eric

    CC, Burnett, Wang, Joba, Pettite. Why on earth would they have any interest in Pettite? If Hughes is ever goign to get a shot it has to be now, or they might as well deal him away (when his value is at an all-time low). Seems to me this is the perfect opportunity to give the kids a shot at being the #5. I don’t get why they would even consider AP

    • A.D.

      Pettitte would be a 1 year deal, Hughes is 22/23 this season, he can still pitch at AAA and develop.

      • eric

        But Hughes is already better than Pettite. Why would you spend anything for a guy worse than the cheap option, who also is so key to your future (or should be)

        • Abe

          agreed

        • Nady Nation

          Hughes is already better than Pettitte? Do you have anything whatsoever to back this up? I’d love to see it.

          • eric

            every projection I’ve seen calls for Hughes to be better. But if you don’t like projections, consider that one coasts the minimum and one will cost millions. I know it’s the Ynaks and they don’t care about being smart with the money, but on a cost basis Hughes is the far better player now.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          “But Hughes is already better than Pettite. “

          A) We hope. Hughes has better stuff than Pettitte, but it often takes time to harness that stuff into quality major league production. Andy is still a good pitcher who looks to have had some pretty crummy luck in 2008, he should bounce back well. I agree that Hughes is capable of being a good 5th starter, but there’s never anything wrong with hedging your bet with a quality lefty vet on a one year deal.
          B) With CC, Burnett, Joba, Wang, Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves, Coke, and possibly Humberto Sanchez as the other candidates for our rotation, Pettitte is good insurance for ALL of them, not just Hughes. CC is the only one with little to no questionmarks. Let’s recap.

          CC- he’s good money
          Burnett – has an injury history a mile long
          Wang – recovering from a season-ending injury
          Joba – injured last year; on innings restrictions
          Hughes – injured last year; on innings restrictions
          Kennedy – injured last year; on innings restrictions
          Aceves – untested, looks to have benefited from great luck (witness ERA/FIP splits), still a wildcard
          Coke – a total unknown

          I’d say we currently have one guy who’s a total lock to make 33 quality starts next year. The rest all have great upside, but are far from sure things. Adding Pettitte makes tons of sense. Our pitching is good, but we’re not likely to run the same 5 guys up there every turn through like the 2008 Rays…

          • Ryan S.

            This man speaks the truth.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              This man speaks the truth.

              Speaking of me speaking the truth, yes, Ryan, it is true, I did just win the Inaugural RAB Fantasy Football League Championship.

              Just like Andy Pettitte with the kids, my team was a mix of savvy vets and energetic young kids. Tommie’s Titans had scary depth and it was that combination of roster flexibility and overpowering superior talent that enabled me to metaphorically rip the eyes out of the sockets and piss in the dead skulls of Mike, Joe, Jamal, Rafi, jsbrendog, Punk in Drublic, and SAMIAMISPORTS. They all also had teams, but none of them could match mine in excellence, which interestingly is allegorical to how none of them can match me personally in intelligence, personal hygiene, or desirability to the feminine sex.

              Just like Andy Pettitte, I’d be an awesome addition to anybody’s team. Because I’m a champion.

              [ Fantasy Football Championship Bragging Rights Name Drop #23 of 1000 ]

              • Ryan S.

                This was probably my favorite name drop so far.

                • whozat

                  Nah, the name drop that segued into a h/t-cum-name-drop was hands-down the best. That shit was genius.

                  I bow to you, sir (much like the rest of the fantasy football league, blah blah blah, champion, yadda yadda)

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  Nah, the name drop that segued into a h/t-cum-name-drop was hands-down the best. That shit was genius.

                  You’ve got to stay focused, take it one name drop at a time, trust your teammates, and give it 110%.

                  Nobody believed in us but the guys in this locker room. All praises due to the Father and Creator, without him none of this is possible.

                • Ryan S.

                  TJSC, your name-drop count is like watching a David Blaine stunt. I wouldn’t be nearly tenacious enough to name-drop brag 1000 times.

                  BUT REMEMBER: You have very large expectations on your shoulders. If you disappoint your fans and you don’t complete the name dropping queue by next year’s RAB FF competition, your name will live in forum infamy forever.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  You have very large expectations on your shoulders. If you disappoint your fans and you don’t complete the name dropping queue by next year’s RAB FF competition, your name will live in forum infamy forever.

                  In-famous is when you’re MORE than famous. This man El Guapo, he’s not just famous, he’s IN-famous.

                  I’ll take that…

                • Ryan S.

                  Nope, that is an incorrect definition of the word infamous (or infamy). And your internet penis just got smaller for being wrong.

                  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/infamy

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  Nope, that is an incorrect definition of the word infamous (or infamy).

                  http://www.impawards.com/1986/posters/three_amigos_ver2.jpg

                  Do not doubt my name-dropping or quote-referencing abilities.

                • Ryan S.

                  Ooooh it was a quote, eh? I wouldn’t think you’d “misremember” the definition of a word like that.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  The name “El Guapo” in the middle of it wasn’t a dead giveaway of a reference to something somewhere?

                • Ryan S.

                  You’re filled with non-sequitors. While yes, it seemed likely you were alluding to something, I was unable to deduce that the reference itself included misuse of the word “infamous”.

                  Just curious, what movie/show/whatever is that from? It does sound vaguely familiar…

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside
          • Nady Nation

            Amen

          • LiveFromNewYork

            Agree. I don’t think Andy is a must have but I think he’s a pretty damn good to have.

          • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a The Last Don

            “Our pitching is good, but we’re not likely to run the same 5 guys up there every turn through like the 2008 Rays…”

            Agreed, but no other team is likely to do what the Rays did this year either.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              Very true.

    • Ryan S.

      Why does Hughes HAVE to have his shot now, when he hasn’t even pitched a full season of AAA? I think Hughes on his best day his definitely better than Pettitte on his best day as of right now, but that’s only part of the equation. Hughes can still develop plenty and he needs to increases his innings limit. I’d feel uneasy having 2 pitchers w/ 150 IP season limits going into the season. Its not like Hughes is going to disappear in 2010.

      • eric

        Look, I’m a Sox fan. I hope they keep Huges at AAA until he’s 30. I’m just saying that Pettitte is mediocrity defined at this point. He’s just not the kind of guy a well-run team spends $10 million on to fill their 5th starter role when they have several better options in the minors who are MLB ready. Maybe the NYY don’t think Hughes, Kennedy, etc., are not ready, but that’s not at all what’s been put out there for the last 30 months, or so.

        You can pick up a guy like Pettitte in July for a bag of balls, if you need him.

        • Ryan S.

          Pettitte is a league average, left handed innings eat. The extra 50+ innings he can pitch compared to Hughes is a big advantage, and he’s simply more dependable than guys like Kennedy or Aceves are right now. I just want Pettitte for 1 more year so we can stagger the implementation of our high upside young starters. Its not a big deal if we lose Pettitte and put in Hughes instead, and its the move that has more upside, but my preference is still Andy.

          For the record, I’d initially lean towards Kennedy or Aceves over Hughes in ST simply because they’re both good for 180+ IP. But if Hughes is blowing everybody away in ST like he probably will, its far from the worst thing that can happen.

          • steve (different one)

            The extra 50+ innings he can pitch compared to Hughes is a big advantage, and he’s simply more dependable than guys like Kennedy or Aceves are right now.

            sure, but are those 50 innings worth $12M?

            • Ryan S.

              When you’re the Yankees? Yup.

              • eric

                Then why not sign Lowe? He is better and can be infusrance for 4-5 years. At some point money matter, here right?

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  Because Lowe won’t take a one year deal.

                • Ryan S.

                  YUP. I’d much prefer Lowe over Andy if he’d go for a 1 year deal, which he’d never do.

                • eric

                  The point is why not sign all of the pitchers then go with the 5 best and put the rest at AAA or have them cut the grass? One year, 5 years, who cares? Many here seem to be making the case for Pettitte because they have the money so why not spend it? If that’s the mentality, then wny not spend it on the best pitcher available?

                  Answer; this is more about Pettitte’s past than his future.

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  Answer; this is more about Pettitte’s past than his future.

                  Wrong. This is more about Joba, Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves, Coke, Sanchez, Betances, Brackman, Bleich, and Marshall’s presents AND futures than it is about anything else.

                  Nobody on here is interested in Lowe or Perez or anybody but Andy on a one year deal because the following two things are true:

                  1) We have buttloads of excellent young pitching talent.
                  2) Most of them either aren’t ready to contribute, aren’t ready for a full season of 200 big league innings, are injury concerns, or are extremely green.

                  The point is not about “sign all the pitchers”, the point is balancing what’s the best team for 2009 with what’s best for our future. Stop ignoring the other part of the story.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          You can pick up a guy like Pettitte in July for a bag of balls, if you need him.

          If that were true, we wouldn’t have picked up Sidney Ponson last year, we would have picked up “the guy like Andy Pettitte” you claim was sitting out there for the taking.

          • I Remember Celerino Sanchez

            Exactly. Look, we’re all (most of us, anyway) rubbed the wrong way by Pettitte’s flip-flop (it’s not about money, but I won’t take the $10 million). And we all know that Andy’s second half last year wasn’t very good. But he is an established, average to slightly above average lefty starter who has proven he can thrive in New York and the A.L. East, and who takes the ball every five days. That is a valuable commodity. None of the veteran third-tier FAs (like Wolf, Byrd or Garland) can make the same claims as Andy (except that Wolf is lefty).

      • Abe

        I think that this is the perfect opportunity for Hughes. RAB had a post a while ago stating that Joba benefited most from the signings of CC and AJ. I think the same could be said for Hughes – he can come in under the radar and pitch well for the Yanks. Last year when at the start of the season everyone was talking about him and IPK and how much they worth to the Yanks and how Cashman didn’t give them up for Johan, there was simply too much pressure on him. Now, all that is gone and there would be very little pressure on the guy. Besides he has dominated every level of the minors all ready. So I say give Hughes the 4th spot.

  • Should be working

    ” Anyways, a 3.75 FIP in 187 innings would place him around +3.3 wins. Properly valuing his contributions would result in a 1-yr/$15.8 mil deal. Basically, Pettitte deserves the same salary relative to his projected production. ” – FG

    According to the math I guess he’s worth it? Doesnt seem right tho. But I know nothing about sabermetrics and all that jazz so..yeah…

    • Glen L

      That of course was based on what Pettitte would have been worth given the marginal cost of a win above replacement for the 2008 season. Given what FAs are getting this offseason, Pettitte’s marginal value will be less than 15.8 … regardless, its still a valid point

  • GG

    CC
    Wanger
    AJ
    Aceves
    Joba

    Since aceves pitched like 140 or 150 or something minors included this past year, he can carry 190 or something like that and people can keep safegaurded their precious hughes

    • MattG

      Aceves is not a 190 inning pitcher on a winner. Aceves might replace Ponson’s 15 starts with the team being okay, but I am not planning on him for 190 innings.

      • GG

        So whats a better idea?? Maybe ask CC to call up his buddy Sheets

    • Ryan S.

      I think Aceves pitched about 165ish innings throughout all levels last year. I agree, this is how I’d set the rotation at this point. Precious Phranchise can be our #6 starter and have a full year of AAA.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Again, I like Aceves but I think we need to tamper the expectations down a bit.

        The Mexican Gangster had an FIP of 4.80. His BABIP was .234, it’s not going to stay that low forever. He only had a K/9 of 4.80 and had a fat 3.00 BB/9.

        He’s not Ponsnerian, but he’s probably not as good as his 2008 looked over a larger sample size.

        • Ryan S.

          Yeah, his BABIP was ridiculously low, good point. But all we need is for some guys to be dependably mediocre. At the end of the day, as long as Aceves/IPK/Hughes is better than Rasner/Ponson/Pavano, we’re in fine shape. Which is why I’d just like a 1 year rental for a veteran (preferably Andy).

  • Adrian-Retire21

    They shouldn’t lower there offer but they shouldn’t raise it.

    Andy signed a $16 million dollar contract 1 week before the Mitchell report knowing full well he was on it

    I love Andy but he lost alot of respect after he made spring training into a joke with he’s conference of his hgh use.

  • John NY

    You know, Pettitte is in control here. If he stuck by his words, this would be a done deal. All he has to do is tell the Hendricks brothers to get the deal done, I want to be a Yankee! To me, the statement “I want to pitch for no team but the Yanks” is such a hypocritical statement. Cashman realized this and threw out the $10 MM offer. He called Pettitte out and his true colors are exposed.

    The Yankees know this game very well. It’s very close to the game Roger Clemens played with them. Kudos to Cashman for exposing Andy and his agents for what they are. Hypocrites!

    • John NY

      The best part about this situation is that players, like Clemens, cannot take advantage of G. Steinbrenner and the soft spot he has for certain players. The days of George signing “his guys” are over. Hank, who is like his dad, has said some things about getting players. As you can see, he’s no where to be found during this hot stove.

      Cashman is right to treat the negotiation this way.

      • Ryan S.

        Its so nice Cashman finally has a logical mind in the ownership with Hal. I’m getting the impression that whenever both Cash and Hal agree on something, than that’s ultimately what the course of action will be.

      • Leo

        Well Andy was never one of George’s guys, so he wouldn’t have that advantage anyway. ;)

  • Bo

    I find it hard to believe that they would go into a yr with so much expectations and let 2 mil effect them in getting a legit #4 starter and proven vet.

    • John NY

      Bo, I think the issue is not money here. I think the Yanks want to make sure Andy is in check with his desire to play for the Yanks. They over paid Posada and Rivera because they are real Yanks. Pettitte is not being true based on his actions.

      • jsbrendog

        plus this true yankee thing is all bulshit. pettitte pitched for a nother team and is just another hired gun coming home for a chance to win.

      • Nady Nation

        “Real Yanks”? What a crock. Andy is not a real Yank, despite winning 4 titles with them and being a Yankee farmhand? How are Posada and Mo any different than that? Just b/c Andy pitched for another team he’s not a “real” Yankee? Or is it because he’s not signing the contract that you’d like him to? In 2 years, if we don’t give Mo the money he thinks he’s worth, and he decides to pitch for another team, is he stripped of his “real Yank” status?

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          the “True/Real Yankee” concept = nonsensical meaningless gibberish

      • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

        They paid Rivera because he’s the best closer in the history of closers. They paid Posada because he’s a fantastic, possible-HOF-caliber-offensive catcher.

        • Ryan S.

          Agree on Mo, that man is worth every penny. For Posada…I think that 4th year was a Yankee bonus.

          • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

            Yeah, word. The length was a bit much but whatever. He can always DH.

            • Ryan S.

              Yeah, he’s far from an albatross … yet. This is a big year for Jorge. If he can come back and catch 100+ games, I will be very content. By year 4 he’s probably our full time DH, but he’s good enough to justify that position so long as his bat speed doesn’t slow down.

  • John NY

    I agree with the true yankee thing being BS. It sounds good in the media. The hired gun position was abused by Clemens and his agents. And, Cashman is keeping them honest by bringing Pettitte in on market terms and nothing else.

  • frank

    Ok, so people are torn between Hughes/Aceves or whether Pettitte should return. I think we pretty much all agree $10M for Pettitte is more than fair considering where he’s at at this point in his career. No one seems too thrilled with the other options for various reasons, such as Perez (too erratic), Lowe(too pricey), Garland, Byrd, Wolf. Personally, I still think the Yanks are in the best position to take a chance on Sheets for 1 year plus an option. They can afford to swallow the $$ if in fact he can’t pitch and they have backups in place with Hughes/Aceves/Kennedy. Plus, Sheets wouldn’t have to anchor the staff-he’d just be another cog. They could even limit his innings/pitch count if they are concerned about him breaking down. But the upside, in my view, is well worth the risk. If he’s healthy, he would be a NASTY 4th or 5th starter.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      I agree. I think Sheets is holding out for a multiyear offer, though, and at some point Texas will probably bite. Plus, he may be more hurt that we’ve speculated.

      Oh, and Pettitte doesn’t cost us a pick (although, at this point, we’re only talking about a 4th/5th rounder, so… whatever.)

      • frank

        I agree with you that Sheets may be more hurt than his agent is leading on. He may need to pull a Chad Cordero and start auditioning for teams to get a deal.

  • GG

    Andy, for the love of God….NOBODY is going to pay you more, you must sorta want to retire huh? 10 is more than 0!

  • steve (different one)

    well, there is also this:

    The Yankees’ initial plan this offseason was to add Nick Swisher to play first, and then fixate on the rotation by signing two high-end starters (Sabathia and Burnett) and re-signing Pettitte to serve as a fifth starter. However, after meeting Teixeira in Washington on Dec. 4, Cashman became more intrigued with also obtaining the first baseman.

    Ownership was initially resistant to making another huge monetary outlay. But once Cashman had convinced the Steinbrenner family of the short- and long-term benefits of signing Teixeira, the corresponding move was the need to cut elsewhere. That starts with a lower offer for Pettitte. The Yanks also might trade either Swisher or Xavier Nady, and it is possible if they could remove those salaries that they could consider restoring their bid to Pettitte at $10 million.

    so that’s the deal.

    the Yankees don’t want to just give in to Pettitte b/c ownership already stretched themselves to get Teixeira.

    they made financial choice, and they chose VERY wisely.

    so, this isn’t about an extra million or two to Pettitte. it’s about giving Pettitte the WHOLE $12M.

    they spent Pettitte’s money on Teixeira. and if they want to bring him back, they have to trade someone else.

    doesn’t this make a lot more sense?

    • Ryan S.

      I’m confused a bit here … The Yanks definitely had the offer of $10M to Pettitte on the table after the Tex signing, right? How else could he reject that offer unless it was, y’know, offered to him.

      I can see how $10M is the absolute max they’re willing to spend on Teixeira, but I don’t think they need to move any salary to make that happen.

      • steve (different one)

        i guess it’s possible that they left their original offer on the table, even though they were uncomfortable with it, simply out of respect for Pettitte.

        so, their thinking went like this:

        “if Andy accepts, we’ll be a little over our payroll goal, but we love Andy so we won’t embarrass him by pulling our offer”

        but now it is:

        “well, he rejected our offer. so now we have to go back and see what other pieces we have to move to make this work. and if nothing makes sense for the overall quality of the team, well, we’ll have to look elsewhere for our 5th starter.”

        • Ryan S.

          Ok, that actually makes a lot of sense to me. That may well be the internal thought process of the front office.

          If it comes down to Nady or Swisher or Pettitte, I guess I’d go for Andy. Its a surprisingly tough call for me to make though.

      • Ryan S.

        “I can see how $10M is the absolute max they’re willing to spend on Teixeira Pettitte”

  • ceciguante

    i’m less and less a pettitte fan by the day. what a phony.

    hey andy: you had a bad year last year, a PED scandal, and you ain’t gettin any younger. suck it up, take a paycut, and play for a ring if that’s what you really are in it for. if you’re just in it for the money and it was just lip service when you preached to the media that you really wanted to be a yankee…don’t let the door hit you in the ass.

    -cecilio guante

    • Glen L

      I think its patently unfair for any of us to critize Andy here, we can all say over and over that we would always stick by our words (when there is a written record of nearly everything you say) and take less money … until I see any of us in such a situation and actually do so, however, I think we should all cool it a touch

      • MattG

        Except this is the 4th such time Pettitte is playing these games. I respect the guy’s opportunity to make money and negotiate a contract. I do not respect his decision to repeatedly blame the team he is negotiating with of not showing him enough love.

        Bottom line, you can make that mistake once or twice. The fourth time you say it ain’t about the money, its time to call bullshit.

        • steve (different one)

          how is this the 4th time?

          he came back in 2007 on a fair contract and everyone was thrilled. and last year, he may have dragged his decision out, but he honored the handshake arrangement he made with Cashman the previous offseason.

          i don’t remember anything acrimonious about the last 2 contract negotiations at all.

          • MattG

            2003, 2006, 2007, 2008.

            Different years, same story: Its not about the money–Give me more money.

            • Glen L

              2003, George didn’t want him back … and i really don’t recall andy doing anything contentious (in my mind) in 06 or 07