HOF election results announced today

Everyone loves a new t-shirt
Will the Yanks make a play for the Cuban defectors?

The Hall of Fame is going to get add a few members today, and as Maury Brown notes, MLB Network will carry the official announcement live (and exclusively) starting at 1:30pm. The only shoo-in on the ballot is Rickey Henderson, baseball’s all-time leaders in runs scored, stolen bases, and third person references. Chris Jaffe over at THT did a great job of summing up the wonder of Rickey, I highly recommend it.

You can check out the rest of the ballot here. Chances are that Jim Rice will finally break through and make it too Cooperstown in his final year on the ballot, and at that point the HOF floodgates should open. Once Rice is in, don’t you have to let Frank Howard, Fred McGriff, Albert Belle, Juan Gonzalez and Will Clark in? I mean, when the best thing you can say about a guy is “he was the most feared hitter of his era” (BBWAA code for “I have no evidence to support my claim”), does that make him Hall worthy? I’m pretty sure Mark McGwire scared the bejesus out of pitchers, so why hasn’t he been let in? He hasn’t been proven guilty of anything. Oh, and how does a guy go from receiving 29.8% of the vote in his first year on the ballot to 72.2% in his 14th year on ballot? How many games did he play in between ballots?

Eh, whatever. Sorry about the rant. Hopefully Bert Blyleven and Tim Raines break through and make it to their rightful place in the HOF. I’ll update this post as Harold Reynolds & Co. make the announcements, supposedly they’ll come around 2pm.

Update (2:01pm): Rickey Henderson and Jim Rice make it. That’s it. Congrats to them both.

Update (2:05pm): Here’s the voting:

Rickey, 94.8%
Rice, 76.4
Andre Dawson, 67.0
Bert Blyleven, 62.7
Lee Smith, 44.5
Jack Morris, 44.0
Tommy John, 31.7
Tim Raines, 22.6
Mrk McGwire, 21.9
Alan Trammell, 17.4
Dave Parker, 15.0
Donnie Baseball, 11.9
Dale Murphy, 11.5
Harold Baines, 5.9

Everyone loves a new t-shirt
Will the Yanks make a play for the Cuban defectors?
  • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

    Buster Olney disappointed me.

    YES: Rickey, Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Jack Morris, Mark McGwire
    NO: Tim Raines, Bert Blyleven, Alan Trammell

    How you can be pro Morris but not pro Blyleven, or pro Dawson but not pro Raines, I don’t understand.

    Can’t say I agreed with any of these ballots:

    • Abe

      Pedro Gomez?? Really?? Come on that is a horrible ballot.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Yeah. Lee Smith, Jay Bell, and Dave Parker, but no Bert Blyleven, Tim Raines, or Mark McGwire. My head would have exploded, but then, I never went into examining Pedro Gomez’s ballot with expectations of anything intelligent whatsoever, so he was spared my ire due to lowered expectations.

        Buster Olney has demonstrated enough rationality in the past that I was more surprised by his ballot.

        • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a The Last Don

          I still try to comprehend why anybody WOULD vote for Mark McGwire. The guy was a HORRIBLE baseball player, his only redeeming quality was power which was fake.

          I would hope that nobody that is a PED guy would get in the Hall, but I know that is naive. I do not agree with but understand when people say a guy like Bonds was a HOF before roids, but McGwire was not under any circumstance.

          • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a The Last Don

            To clarify this statement “I do not agree with but understand when people say a guy like Bonds was a HOF before roids, but McGwire was not under any circumstance.”

            I mean that guys who do roids in my book just should not be in. I do think Bonds was obviously on a path to the Hall before he got on the chemical bandwagon.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              This is where we agree to disagree, I suppose. Steroids were such a pervasive, widespread factor in the game that I’m not going to penalize a guy for doing something that practically everyone was doing. It’s a futile exercise, because you don’t really know who was using and who wasn’t. The only two intellectually honest, morally consistent options are to either not induct anyone who played from 1980-2010 or to not consider steroids as a factor.

    • I Remember Celerino Sanchez

      Agreed. I really don’t understand how anyone could look at Raines’s season-by-season numbers and not include him on the ballot. It’s not his fault Ricky is eligiblie this year, too.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Fun Fact of the Day #1:

        From 1981 to 1998, Tim Raines had a wOBA below .350 only twice; in 1982 (his first year as a fulltime starter) with a .342, and 1991, his first year with the White Sox, when he put up a .330. During that 18 year stretch, he wOBA’d over .370 eleven times.

        Jim Rice only wOBA’d .370 or higher eight times.

        • I Remember Celerino Sanchez

          The guy (Raines) was 1A to Ricky’s 1 as the best leadoff hitters of their era.

          Seriously, anyone who includes Jay Bell on his ballot should have his vote taken away, especially if he leaves off Raines. Bell had a nice career and a few very nice seasons, but if he’s in the Hall of Fame, so is 1/3 of the league when he played.

          It’s like some of these writers are actively trying to make the HOF meaningless.

          Pisses me off.

          • Chris

            I don’t have a problem with a vote for Jay Bell. It’s his first time on the ballot, and there’s obviously no way he’s getting in. If voting for him keeps him on the ballot, then that’s a good thing. It would have been nice if Lou Whitaker could have stayed on the ballot for a few years so he could get some focus…

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              That’s ludicrous and insane.

              You don’t vote for a guy who you think shouldn’t be in just to keep him on the ballot. That’s the exact opposite of your charged duty as a BBWAA voting member.

          • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a The Last Don

            I agree with your Jay Bell statement.

  • Raul

    Juan Gonzalez?

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.


      Rice: .298-.354-.502, 383 HR, 1451 RBI, 128 OPS+
      Juan Gone: .295-.343-.561, 434 HR, 1404 RBI, 132 OPS+

      • Raul

        I stand corrected.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          Yes, but was Juan Gonzalez “feared”? I think not. Jim Rice is the only man to have been “feared” since Ted Williams. Therefore, he clearly belongs in the Hall of Fame, while Gonzalez (and eventually, Derek Jeter) shouldn’t be.

          For Diamond Cutters, I’m Peter Gammons, ESPN.

          • Steve S

            “Now I popped both your cherries”…say hello to your mother for me Jim Rice.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              say hello to your mother for me Jim Rice.

              Heh, I laughed at that.

      • Raul

        Then shouldn’t McGwire be let in http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mcgwima01.shtml

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

          Yep, absolutely.

        • Ed

          While there’s always a few weirdos in there, I’d be surprised if there are many people arguing against McGwire because of his stats.

          • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a The Last Don

            Ok so if you vote for McGwire you kinda have to vote for Canseco too right?

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              No, seeing as how McGwire was unquestionably a better and more productive player than Canseco.

      • rbizzler

        Ugh, way closer than I thought, and, thus, making Jim Ed’s enshrinement even worse.

        more analysis of Juan Gone:

      • Sweet Dick Willie

        Rice: .298-.354-.502, 383 HR, 1451 RBI, 128 OPS+
        Juan Gone: .295-.343-.561, 434 HR, 1404 RBI, 132 OPS+

        Joe Torre: .297/.365/.452, 252 HR, 1185 RBI, 128 OPS+, catcher & corner infielder. Just sayin’.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

          I hear ya.

          Check this guy out: .313-.400-.565, 383 HR, 1311 RBI

          Who is it? Larry motherfreakin’ Walker, that’s who.

          Did anyone just hear Jon Heyman’s explanation for why he voted for Mattingly? “It’s called the Hall of FAME, and he was famous.”

  • Raul

    They should throw everyone out. Except for the immortals like the Babe, Teddy Ballgame, mick, mays, gehrig, johnson, mathewson, etc.
    And re vote on everyone. Corky Simpson gets to vote on Umpires

  • Abe

    Hate to say it but I think I like Peter Gammons ballot the best of ESPN’s voters.

  • Rey

    Waaay off topic, but what about revisiting trade talks for Jarrod Washburn as an innings eating #5 starter?

    • Ed

      If they drew the line for Pettitte at $10m, why would they pay $10.35m + players for a worse pitcher?

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Waaay off topic, but what about revisiting trade talks for Jarrod Washburn as an innings eating #5 starter?

      If they’ll take Melky and Igawa, sure. Otherwise, hells no.

      • Andy In Sunny Daytona

        You can find anyone to “eat innings”, hell I’m good for 175 if they need it. But I’m sure the Yankees are looking for a “quality” innings-eater. At this stage, I don’t think that Wasburn fits that bill.

  • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

    I don’t know why, but even as I’ve grown as a baseball fan since my mid-teen years, the HoF has never done it for me. I see people I respect get into heated discussions about the topic, yet it never interests me.

    However, that does not preclude me from saying that Jim Rice and Andre Dawson should not be in the HoF.

    Heh, Jon Heyman: “[Andre Dawson] had a .323 OBP, big deal!” Yeah, who fucking cares that the most important thing a hitter can do (getting on base), Dawson fucking sucked at throughout his career.

    • Ivan

      The problem with the MLB HOF, is that there are so many factors and perspectives, that all of a sudden shit gets well twisted.

    • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

      But, Jamal! He played the game the right way! And he had bad knees!

  • Ivan

    If it wasn’t for Ricky H, Raines would be considered the best leadoff man in baseball history arguebably.

    I would of voted for:
    Maybe Bert Blyleven.

  • http://twitter.com/OldRanger Old Ranger

    Blyleven, Raines are no brainers, they should’ve made it years ago. Jim Rice is not a HOF player and as to being the most feared hitter of his era? He was feared but, there were others at that time that were also feared.
    What about these guys; Reggie, Dick Allen, Yas, Eddie Murray and even Ken Singlton (he always hurt the Yanks), ok, so a couple are in the HOF. Jim Rice is nowhere to be found among the leading hitters of all time. He had two + years of fine hitting…does that a HOF’er make?
    If that garners HOF votes then how about guys like (our favorite) Donnie Baseball? He was good more years the Jim Rice.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Hitters more “feared” than Jim Rice, year by year (as measured by wOBA):

      Joe Morgan, .463; Fred Lynn, .427; John Mayberry, .427; Rod Carew, .415; Greg Luzinski, .409; Boog Powell, .400; Dave Parker, .400; Mike Schmidt, .399; Willie Stargell, .398; Toby Harrah, .398; Bill Madlock, .396; Bobby Bonds, .396; Gene Tenace, .395; Ted Simmons, .393; Johnny Bench, .392; Ken Singleton, .392; Reggie Smith, .387; George Foster, .386; Bob Watson, .385; Pete Rose, .384; Jimmy Wynn, .383; George Scott, .381; Jose Cardenal, .381; Don Baylor, .380; Richie Zisk, .380; Ron Cey, .377; Bobby Murcer, .377; Manny Sanguillen, .375; Reggie Jackson, .375; Cesar Cedeno, .375; Jim Rice, .375

      Joe Morgan, .473; Bill Madlock, .408; George Foster, .407; Mike Schmidt, .404; Ken Griffey, .398; Hal McRae, .395; Reggie Jackson, .393; Pete Rose, .392; Rod Carew, .390; Greg Luzinski, .384; Ron Cey, .381; Gene Tenace, .381; Cesar Cedeno, .381; George Brett, .381; Rick Monday, .379; Garry Maddox, .379; Fred Lynn, .377; Bob Watson, .377; Dave Parker, .374; Rusty Staub, .373; Ron LeFlore, .373; Rico Carty, .372; Dave Winfield, .370; Bobby Grich, .370; Gary Matthews, .369; Steve Garvey, .368; Richie Zisk, .367; Cesar Geronimo, .366; John Milner, .365; Graig Nettles, .364; Bobby Murcer, .364; Amos Otis, .361; Roy White, .361; Lyman Bostock, .361; Mike Hargrove, .360; Mickey Rivers, .359; Carl Yastrzemski, .359; Jim Rice, .359

      Rod Carew, .440; George Foster, .431; Reggie Smith, .430; Greg Luzinski, .420; Mitchell Page, .419; Mike Schmidt, .416; Ken Singleton, .414; Jim Rice, .414

      Dave Parker, .427; Jim Rice, .424

      Fred Lynn, .456; Sixto Lezcano, .428; Jim Rice, .422

      George Brett, .479; Mike Schmidt, .429; Reggie Jackson, .428; Cecil Cooper, .404; Keith Hernandez, .401; Rickey Henderson, .394; Ken Singleton, .394; Ben Oglivie, .393; Willie Randolph, .392; Jason Thompson, .387; Cesar Cedeno, .386; Buddy Bell, .386; Jack Clark, .384; Ted Simmons, .384; Eddie Murray, .382; Steve Kemp, .380; Andre Dawson, .379; Al Bumbry, .378; Dale Murphy, .375; Miguel Dilone, .374; Joe Charboneau, .373; Ken Griffey, .373; Robin Yount, .373; Mike Hargrove, .372; Paul Molitor, .372; Dwight Evans, .372; Chet Lemon, .371; Rod Carew, .370; Jim Rice, .370

      Mike Schmidt, .470; Dwight Evans, .423; Tim Raines, .413; Andre Dawson, .413; Bill Madlock, .410; Bobby Grich, .408; George Foster, .401; Tom Paciorek, .394; Gary Matthews, .394; Rickey Henderson, .394; Eddie Murray, .392; Keith Hernandez, .391; Chet Lemon, .388; Cecil Cooper, .384; Greg Luzinski, .383; Richie Zisk, .382; Ron Cey, .379; Mike Hargrove, .377; George Hendrick, .376; George Brett, .376; Dave Winfield, .376; Carney Lansford, .374; Willie Aikens, .372; Steve Kemp, .372; Ken Singleton, .371; John Mayberry, .370; Gorman Thomas, .370; Bill Buckner, .367; Pedro Guerrero, .367; Dusty Baker, .364; Leon Durham, .363; Bob Horner, .360; Gene Richards , .360; Jack Clark, .357; Dwayne Murphy, .357; Doug DeCinces, .356; Toby Harrah, .355; Pete Rose, .355; Ken Griffey, .355; Dave Kingman, .355; Jerry Mumphrey, .353; Steve Henderson, .351; Buddy Bell, .350; Warren Cromartie, .348; Jim Rice, .348

      Robin Yount, .418; Dwight Evans, .413; Mike Schmidt, .409; Eddie Murray, .406; Pedro Guerrero, .400; Toby Harrah, .398; Jason Thompson, .396; Hal McRae, .396; Doug DeCinces, .396; Al Oliver, .395; Leon Durham, .395; Reggie Jackson, .392; Dale Murphy, .389; Fred Lynn, .386; George Brett, .385; Gary Carter, .385; Joe Morgan, .385; Dave Winfield, .382; Jim Rice, .382

      Wade Boggs, .415; Dale Murphy, .414; Rickey Henderson, .407; George Brett, .407; Eddie Murray, .404; Mike Schmidt, .398; Pedro Guerrero, .395; Jim Rice, .394

      Dwight Evans, .406; Eddie Murray, .400; Rickey Henderson, .400; Don Mattingly, .400; Dale Murphy, .398; Dave Winfield, .398; Ryne Sandberg, .397; Mike Schmidt, .394; Mike Easler, .394; Kent Hrbek, .393; Cal Ripken, .393; Tim Raines, .393; Harold Baines, .391; Kirk Gibson, .390; Alvin Davis, .387; Chili Davis, .383; Gary Matthews, .381; Leon Durham, .381; Keith Hernandez, .381; Tony Gwynn, .379; Alan Trammell .378; Lloyd Moseby, .377; Gary Carter, .376; Jeffrey Leonard, .374; Jose Cruz .373; Wade Boggs, .372; Andre Thornton, .372; Buddy Bell, .371; Fred Lynn, .371; Chet Lemon, .371; Von Hayes, .369; Lee Lacy, .368; George Bell, .366; Don Baylor, .366; Brian Downing, .362; Dwayne Murphy, .360; Robin Yount, .359; Terry Puhl, .358; Darryl Strawberry, .358; Pedro Guerrero, .358; Dave Kingman, .357; Bob Brenly, .357; Tony Armas, .356; Willie Upshaw, .354; Gary Ward, .352; Johnny Ray, .351; Larry Parrish, .351; Willie Wilson, .350; Pete O’Brien, 348; Jim Rice, .348

      Rickey Henderson, .436; George Brett, 433; Pedro Guerrero, .430; Wade Boggs, .414; Tim Raines, .405; Dale Murphy ,.401; Don Mattingly, .399; Willie McGee, .398; Jesse Barfield, .395; Eddie Murray, .391; Ryne Sandberg, .391; Mike Schmidt, .390; Kirk Gibson, .386; Jack Clark, .383; Dave Parker, .380; Phil Bradley, .380; Toby Harrah, .380; Darrell Evans, .374; Dwight Evans, .371; Mike Young, .371; Gary Carter, .369; Rich Gedman .368; Mike Scioscia, .368; Reggie Jackson, .366; Jim Rice, .365

      Don Mattingly .416; Tim Raines, .412; Wade Boggs, .411; Jesse Barfield, .397; Mike Schmidt, .395; Kirby Puckett, .393; Kirk Gibson, .390; Rickey Henderson, .384; Keith Hernandez, .383; Jim Rice .382

      Paul Molitor, .443; Jack Clark, .443; Wade Boggs, .440; Eric Davis, .433; Tony Gwynn, 419; Tim Raines, .419; Dwight Evans, .416; Darryl Strawberry, .415; Dale Murphy, .415; Alan Trammell, .413; Mark McGwire, .410; Pedro Guerrero, .402; Danny Tartabull, .400; George Bell, .399; Brook Jacoby, .397; Kent Hrbek, .394; Mike Schmidt, .394; Larry Sheets, .391; Don Mattingly, .390; Will Clark, .386; Brian Downing, .385; Kirby Puckett, .382; Kevin Seitzer, .382; John Kruk, .381; Von Hayes, .381; Phil Bradley, .379; Andre Dawson, .378; Alvin Davis, .378; Ivan Calderon, .378; Wally Joyner, .378; Dion James, .377; Andy Van Slyke, .377; Darrell Evans, .375; Matt Nokes, .375; Kirk Gibson, .374; Willie Randolph, .374; George Brett, .374; Chet Lemon, .373; Robin Yount, .372; Howard Johnson, .370; Lloyd Moseby, .369; Brett Butler, .368; Julio Franco, .367; Tim Wallach, .364; Ryne Sandberg, .361; Harold Baines, .360; Carney Lansford, .358; Ozzie Smith, .357; Rob Deer .357; Tony Fernandez, .357; Juan Samuel, .357; Tom Brunansky, .356; Pete Incaviglia, .356; Eddie Murray, .356; Barry Bonds, .355; Keith Hernandez, .355; Kevin Mitchell, .354; Greg Brock, .354; Pat Tabler, .353; Bobby Bonilla, .352; Mitch Webster, .352; Buddy Bell, .352; Dave Winfield, .352; Billy Hatcher, .351; Milt Thompson, .350; Carmelo Martinez, .350; Greg Walker, .349; Kevin McReynolds, .348; Dave Martinez, .348; Vince Coleman, .348; Larry Parrish, .346; Andres Galarraga, .345; Bill Doran, .345; Pete O’Brien, .343; Jack Howell, .340; Kevin Bass, .340; Joe Carter, .339; Ellis Burks, .339; Benito Santiago, .338; Mike Davis, .338; Jim Rice, .338

      Wade Boggs, .425; Jose Canseco, .421; Mike Greenwell, .411; Fred McGriff, .408; Dave Winfield, .407; Kirby Puckett, .399; Kent Hrbek, .394; George Brett, .394; Gary Gaetti, .393; Andres Galarraga, .390; Darryl Strawberry, .389; Rickey Henderson, .388; Kal Daniels, .388; Eric Davis, .388; Danny Tartabull, .387; Dave Henderson, .387; Alvin Davis, .387; Kirk Gibson, .386; Will Clark, .385; Dwight Evans, .382; Paul Molitor, .379; Ellis Burks, .379; Andy Van Slyke, .376; Kevin McReynolds, .375; Barry Bonds, .373; Robin Yount, .371; Eddie Murray, .369; Andre Dawson, 369; Mark McGwire .368; Alan Trammell, .367; Jack Clark, .367; Bobby Bonilla, .362; Brett Butler .362; Brian Downing .358; Cal Ripken, .358; Barry Larkin, .357; Kevin Seitzer, .356; Don Mattingly, .355; Cory Snyder, .355; Joe Carter, .353; Glenn Davis, .351; Rafael Palmeiro,.350; Tony Gwynn, .350; Julio Franco, .347; Kelly Gruber, .347; Chet Lemon, .346; Mark Grace, .346; Johnny Ray, .344; Wally Joyner, .342; Vance Law, .342; Rob Deer, .341; Hubie Brooks, .339; Gene Larkin ,.338; Tom Brunansky, .338; Pete O’Brien, .335; Howard Johnson, .334; Mike Marshall .334; Ron Gant, .333; Harold Baines, .333; Chris Sabo, .333; Steve Buechele, .332; Ryne Sandberg, .332; Kevin Mitchell, .331; Ozzie Smith, .331; Lloyd Moseby, .330; Phil Bradley, .329; Dan Gladden, .329; George Bell .329; Jim Rice, .329


      I eagerly await the rightfully due HoF induction ceremonies of Fred Lynn, Dave Parker, Ken Singleton, Toby Harrah, George Foster, Greg Luzinski, Ken Griffey Sr., Dwight Evans, Pedro Guerrero, Jack Clark, Kirk Gibson, Alvin Davis, Darryl Strawberry, Keith Mitchell, Ellis Burks, Bobby Bonilla, and good ol’ Donnie Baseball as the most “feared” hitters of their respective times.

      • Sweet Dick Willie

        If all BBWAA members put as much effort into their HOF ballots as you put into this post, we wouldn’t need to have this discussion.

      • Mike Pop

        Copy/Paste or type all that?

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          The former.

  • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

    Doe someone know something about why the fuck Blyleven can’t get a bone? did he piss off the writers or something during his playing days? this is ridiculous. Should’ve been Rickey/Bert/Raines.

    But seriously, congrats to Henderson. I’m excited for a third person HOF speech.

    I loved Olney’s justification for voting for Rice. He said something like (paraphrasing)

    “I’ve been reading a lot of articles with guys saying they’re not totally sold on Rice but they don’t want his absence from their ballots to be the reason he gets left out.”

  • Andy In Sunny Daytona

    No love for Albert Belle. Sad, the guy was an absolute monster.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Yes. Both at the plate and while clambering into the stands to kick some fan ass, Ron Artest-style.

  • http://nyfaninboston.blogspot.com/ Manimal

    Did anyone hear Olney? Does his logic make sense? He just said that since most elite players used steroids, it levels the playing field. Which brings up a good argument. Do pitchers or steroids get more of an advantage from PED’s? I would assume that the hitter gets more out of it.

  • I Remember Celerino Sanchez

    I think Raines was the guy who was the most screwed over, but Trammel is second. As a shortstop in the pre-Jeter/A Rod era, he put up the following OPS+ numbers between 1983 and 1993:


    Lifetime .285/.352/.415

  • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

    Wow, I literally laughed my ass off at the Mets’ patch for their 2009 season: http://yankees.lhblogs.com/files/2009/01/3174471010_6d0f72b885.jpg

    Holy shit, that’s all sorts of awful.

    • Andy In Sunny Daytona

      That’s a little flashy for my taste. Now excuse while I go back to my lunch of whitebread with mayonaise and a glass of tap water.

      • UWS

        I was wondering what happened to my lunch. You thieving sumbitch!

      • whozat

        You eat LEAVENED bread!??!!?

        Wow. That shit is fancy.

    • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

      It looks like the Domino’s logo…

    • http://nyfaninboston.blogspot.com/ Manimal

      Its not just that the mets logo is terrible the yankees one is SICK.


    • frank

      Thta patch had to be designed by a third grader.

  • Scott of 3 Kids Tickets

    I remember when the Hall and the voting REALLY meant something… Once Phil Niekro got voted in, it’s been all downhill since. Pitchers hang on for a long time due to medical advancements, and they are Hall worthy? Please…..

    BTW Albert Bell was an a*hole….but was more feared than Rice…

  • frank

    I for one can’t wait to hear Ricky’s acceptance speech. I wonder if he’ll refer to himself in the third person.

    • http://nyfaninboston.blogspot.com/ Manimal

      I think he will as a joke but in all seriousness his speech will be under control.

  • Mike Z

    I am not trying to be sarcastic here but is that really the Met’s patch for this upcoming season ?

  • http://www.geeks2you.net Marc

    Did anybody notice that one of the writers wrote in Pete Rose’s name? Check it out
    I’d love to find out which one it was and thank him. Pete Rose deserves entry!

  • Jordan

    Heyman sure can break a story, but he proved today that he’s a joke as far as a baseball analyst goes. After his comments today they should take away his ballot. He doesn’t care what the proof of the career is, just that he saw a lot of highlights and he liked the guy. Milton Bradley might have a shot if Heyman has anything to do with it.

  • Rich

    When you write “Wow, I literally laughed my ass off at the Mets’ patch for their 2009 season: ”

    I wonder if you actually know what the word “literally” means.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Well, he did write that from his Blackberry while laying in a bed at the hospital.

      Jamal’s ass-reattachment surgery is scheduled for tomorrow morning.

      BTW, use the “Reply to this comment” link at the bottom of each box. It’s ever so helpful.

      • Andy In Sunny Daytona

        I hope Jamal doesn’t get a white one. I find it tough to keep your jeans up.

  • Marsha

    In August 1980, we were at the Oakland Coliseum seeing the A’s play a day game. We were sitting in front of a woman who would yell “Hit the ball Rickey!” every time Rickey Henderson came to bat. That woman made a deep impression on us and to this day whenever we hear mention of Rickey Henderson, we always shout out, “Hit the ball Rickey!” So congratulations to “Hit the ball Rickey!” for making it to the HOF on his first try.

    • jsbrendog

      jon heyman, is that you?

  • Bea

    The real problem I have with the Jim Rice selection is that I have lost my benchmark for “Best Player Not In The Hall of Fame”. Someone has to be that guy and for 14 years a solid case could be made for Rice. He had good average stats and very good counting stats – but not quite good enough for the Hall. Besides, he was “feared” , so he had that going for him .

    Having a clear player made it easy to draw a line and dismiss other players – like Juan Gone. Better than Rice? Nope, you do not get in.

    Now I have no benchmark. Who is the legitimate “Best Player Not In The Hall of Fame”? Not, “who is not in now but will be in after 5 or 6 years”, but the guy who is not in now and never will be (unless ESPN and Peter Gammons make it their life mission to tell everyone who will listen that he was “feared”).

    I need a new benchmark.

  • crapmaster general

    a HoF question: DH’s are kind of the last frontier for the Hall now that closers are more or less OK’d… at least in my thinking, which is typically flawed. I grew up a huge Harold Baines fan (yeah, don’t ask) – I feel he defined the DH but am fully aware he’s not HoF caliber. but who would be? should Edgar Martinez be the first inducted at DH? thereby more or less setting the bar for the position? or should it be someone maybe like Frank Thomas who had more notable years fielding a position before going to the DH? if so, a guy like Thomas would be more akin to Eckersley, ie: Eck had a nice career as a starter, making some voters more OK with the idea of giving him the votes and not strictly electing on his career as a closer.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Harold Baines (.289/.356/.465/.820/.356): no
      Edgar Martinez (.312/.418/.515/.933/.405): yes
      Frank Thomas (.301/.419/.555/.974/.416): hells yes

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        By comparison…

        Jim Rice (.298/.352/.502/.854/.375)

        Oh, and…

        Jim Thome (.279/.406/.560/.966/.408)

        If any of these schmucks who voted for Rice don’t vote for Thome, Edgar or the Big Hurt, I’ll blow a gasket.

    • the most felonious vocalist in the wide world of showbusiness

      Frank Thomas is a lot better than you’re giving him credit for.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        I think he was just saying that Frank Thomas is less associated with the “stigma” of being a DH since he spent the first half of his career playing the field at 1B. I don’t think he was saying Thomas is on the Baines/Edgar/Eckersley echelon of talent, we’d all agree he’s above it.

        • the most felonious vocalist in the wide world of showbusiness

          I agree. I was trying to say that Thomas was so good that if he never played an inning in the field he would get in, probably first ballot. I guess I really didn’t say that at all but his numbers are crazy even if your Jim Rice and think, “the mailman walks.” I also think he’s going to get a lot of credit for being one of the few players who were outspoken against steroids. If I remember correctly when MLB did their survey testing, Thomas was trying to convince the White Sox not to submit to testing in order to automatically trigger required testing in the future. I don’t blame him. He was a man among boys physically when he came up and 5 years some teams had two dudes his size.

          • the most felonious vocalist in the wide world of showbusiness


            I hate me.

        • crapmaster general

          that is exactly right. I think frank thomas is strong enough in the voters’ minds to break the stigma of the DH. that is what I was alluding to, anyway…

  • Dave

    Unless pedro is going to cost significantly less than sheets and by significantly, i mean less than 5 mil guaranteed for one year, why take a HUGE risk on getting some productive innings from pedro when we have such a better chance of getting at the very least 100 productive innings from sheets? While sheets seems to be considered the biggest risk since the beginning of time, his numbers tell most people that he has NEVER pitched less than 110 innings or made less than 17 starts in his 8 years career. Further, he has NEVER had what could be considered a bad season by anyones standards. So while pedro may be a little cheaper, sheets isnt too much more to pay for a much better pitcher at this point if healthy. Sheets can likely be had for 8 to 10 mil guaranteed with A LOT of incentives and a second year option. If sheets is asking for two years, then I agree he may not be worth the risk. But i would think sheets would cost no more than 8 mil guaranteed over whatever pedro’s asking price is. That is just an assumption on my part but i havent heard a single offer given to sheets in terms of money or years. It isnt a stretch to think his asking price has fallen off significantly since the beginning of the off season when he was rumored to be looking for a 2 year 30 million dollar offer.

    • Jack

      Wrong thread.

  • the most felonious vocalist in the wide world of showbusiness

    Anyone see Jim Rice trying to explain away his low OBP in his HOF press conference on MLB network? He kept trying to say, “If I don’t drive the guy in, who’s gonna do it?” Then he started talking about how the Red Sox had a team full of power hitters and mentioned that Yazstremski batted behind him. I think it’s ridiculous that people don’t see the refusal to take a walk in an effort to drive in a run as a selfish act and the very definition of trying to do to much. It shows a complete lack of faith in your teammates which is what made Rice trying to praise Yazstremski and downplay OBP at the same time so pathetic.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      He kept trying to say, “If I don’t drive the guy in, who’s gonna do it?”

      Yeah, because if you’re not going to get an XBH to drive in the runner standing on first, the best thing you can do is make an out. That makes sense.

      You can learn this baseball strategy, and more, when you order your copy of “Baseball Fundamentals: The Jim Rice Way (with special guest Tom Emanski)”, available now at fine bookstores and discount retailers across the country for only $19.95.

      • the most felonious vocalist in the wide world of showbusiness

        As mad as that kind of talk and his election make me, I actually felt sorry for Rice. I honestly thought he was going to cry when he was trying to make his low OBP sound like some grand sacrifice.

        • Whitey14

          Come on guys, you know that ALMOST NOBODY talked about OBP in the freakin’ 70’s and it didn’t become a popular stat until the late 80’s before really taking off ion the 90’s. They just didn’t care about it the way we do now. Power Hitters were supposed to drive in runs and sometimes, especially for Reggie Jackson, do so at the risk of lowering their batting average.

          The same people who think OBP is the best stat to look at are the same guys who made the dumb blanket statement “a walk is as good as a single”. The only time a walk is as good as a single is when it leads off an inning or forces in the game winning run. I’ll buy the argument about walks extending rallies and helping tire pitchers, but those things are very hard to measure and even tougher to argue.

          Also, there weren’t many seasons you could have pitched around Jim Ed as he always had another masher behined him whether it was Yaz, Armas, Baylor, etc., so the “not enough intentional walks” argument is a weak one, at best.

          To those that think this waters down the Hall of Fame, come on, there know it too) that have played major league baseball and only 289 of them are in the HOF. That’s less than 2%. Doesnt seem unreasonable to me. Rice’s candidacy was by no means a slam dunk and I don’t mind people arguing against his election, because to be honest, it is debatable, but I hope they were arguing just as hard against Tony Perez and Orlando Cepeda. If they weren’t, they’re hypocrites.

          I’ve waited 20 years for this day, so no matter who likes it and who hates it, they can’t take it away from Jim, in my opinion a very deserving HOFF (that’s Hall of Fuckin’ Famer!)

          • the most felonious vocalist in the wide world of showbusiness

            Congratulations. I can’t blame a Red Sox fan for being happy; I know I’d be happy if Mattingly made it. The thing is, Rice’s OBP isn’t very good when compared against his contemporaries. Was it just Jim Rice who was expected to drive in runs at the expense of getting on base while all the other great players were paid to get on base? Also, Rice having good protection throughout his career is a good reason for him not getting many intentional walks. It is also further evidence that Rice taking a walk every once in a while would have been good for the Red Sox. Unless you’re saying that Yaz, Armas, and Baylor could not have driven him in.

            Besides, the lack of OBP is not my biggest gripe against the selection. My problem is that Rice was a below average player away from Fenway Park. His home/away splits are what make Rice one of the very worst corner outfielders in the HOF.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

            “Come on guys, you know that ALMOST NOBODY talked about OBP in the freakin’ 70’s”

            I hate this argument. It has no basis in reality. As a commenter said before, OBP is the measure of how many times a player did not make an out. So saying that no one knew the importance of OBP is akin to saying no one knew the importance of not making outs.

            OBP is important whether or not players are aware of it.

            • Whitey14

              I don’t disagree with that premise, but it’s like Mickey Mantle said about the 30-30 club, “If I knew it was important I would have done it a bunch of times” and that is very loosely translated so I apologize if it’s not right on. I agree that OBP is important, but it was not the focus in the 1970’s and 80’s that Home Runs and RBI were. That’s all I’m saying.

              It’s also unfair to penalize a player for the park he played in. A player is judged on his whole body of work, not what he did at home or onthe road. Next we’ll be saying “that guy didn’t hit lefties as well as righties so he shouldn’t be in the HOF”

              And Keith Law’s argument, who apparently makes up his own standard for the HOF, that Rice didn’t have longevity is complete and utter bullshit. The HOF rules stipulate that a player must compete in 10 or more Championship seasons. It’s not for that douchebag to hold people accountable to a different standard. He’s as bad as the people who didn’t vote for Henderson and he should never get a vote based on his refusal to follow the standard that the HOF set up for their establishment.

          • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Come on guys, you know that ALMOST NOBODY talked about OBP in the freakin’ 70’s and it didn’t become a popular stat until the late 80’s before really taking off ion the 90’s. They just didn’t care about it the way we do now.

            Whitey, that’s hot bullshit and you know it. I will grant you that the statistic of OBP was not commonplace and not discussed, in terms of the statistic itself. But baseball people talked about outs being bad and the importance of not making outs, since they were bad. How OBP was discussed may have changed, but the notion that nobody cared about making or not making outs and how frequently players did that is simply not true.

            FWIW, it seems like all the old players who make the claim that “we didn’t care about OBP back then” were players with shitty OBP’s.

            “We didn’t care about OBP back then” = “It’s not the size, it’s how you use it”

            • Whitey14

              Honestly, if I thought it was hot bullshit I wouldn’t say it.

              We can agree to disagree on the perceived value of OBP over the years but we all know it’s a stat that is valued more now than ever. Every year more and more people migrate away from BA, HR and RBI as the best measures of a hitter as we look to find better ways to analyze these guys.

              Just curious, should Reggie Jackson’s career OBP of .356 have kept him out of the HOF, or does the fact that he played until he was 65 and hit certain “milestones” cancel that out ;-)

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Heh, it’s interesting you bring up Reggie Jackson, I always thought he was one of the most overrated Hall of Famers. Here’s my thought process: I think Reggie is the last one into the Hall, and Jim Rice is the first one out of the Hall. I’d put the line right between them.

                They actually have eerily similar rate stats:
                Jim Rice (.298/.352/.502/.854/.375)
                Reggie Jackson (.262/.356/.490/.856/.375)

                But yes, I think Reggie sticking around and reaching milestones, but more importantly remaining a force into his late 30’s (look at his very good 1985 and 1986 seasons at 39 and 40) is the bump that puts him in, and if Rice had put up a few more seasons like that, instead of falling off a cliff at age 33, maybe I’d support his candidacy more.

                Here’s the thing, though: I understand most of this is subjective. My line is between the two; if you have a line that’s further back and you have both Jackson and Rice in, I get that; if you’re a small-hall guy and you leave both Reggie and Rice out, I get that too. Difference of opinion is okay, but lack of intellectual consistency and integrity is not okay. So, if you put Rice in, you damn well better put Tim Raines in (as well as Thome, Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas, etc. etc.)

                I have a problem with voters who vote for a guy who’s borderline (like Rice) but not a guy who’s a slam-dunk (like Raines). I have a problem with a voters who vote for a guy they like or from their favorite team but not a similar or better guy they have no personal affinity for. That shit is unconscionable.

              • the most felonious vocalist in the wide world of showbusiness

                Park factors. Era adjustments. Stop looking at unadjusted numbers and you will see the vast differences between the two players. Plus, Reggie won a bunch of rings and had quite a few “moments.”

  • Lanny

    Rice is a joke. Now being “feared” gets you in?

    So be big, angry and black.

    Albert Belle should get a solid 99%

    • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a The Last Don

      I think they mean he was a feared hitter. I am not the biggest Jim Rice fan but I suspect it was a different reason than yours being that I not mad at a guy for his skin color like you seem to be.

  • Frank

    A black guy played for the Red Sox????

    • Whitey14

      That made me laugh!

  • D.B.H.O.F. p.k.a The Last Don

    Everybody on here knows I think Donnie should be in, but man Raines and Dawson got jobbed.

    • http://twitter.com/OldRanger Old Ranger

      Late to the thread again, just wanted to 2nd your sentiment on Raines and Dawson. Donnie in my observation, is a bit short on very good years…he and Munson are two guys I really had a lot of respect for. They played very hard and always played to win, no matter what it took.

  • crapmaster general

    the thing about Mattingly is that even though many people – from casual fans to HoF voters agree he doesn’t make the cut for the Hall, it’s odd that so many up-and-coming players name him as their boyhood idol. starting with Gregg Jeffries in the late 80’s, all the way to now with Tex. as a kid myself during his heyday, there were few players more beloved than Mattingly.

    I know the WS rings probably negate the possibility of this rhetorical question, but fast-forward several years – is there any way Jeter could have the same fate as Donny? I personally hope not, but time does strange things.

  • Marcus

    2000 walks and 3000 hits.