Who’s spending more on pitching?

They play the games on the field, but...
Spring Trainging CF battle brewing

When it comes down to the Yankees and the Red Sox, it’s always a competition. One team has to be better, smarter and more popular than the other. One team always has to win.

This off-season, the Yanks have emerged the winners. They’ve out-spent the Red Sox, and they even snatched Mark Teixeira seemingly out from under Boston at the least minute. Yet, still, their fans insist that the Red Sox may come out ahead. Just take a look at this post by a Sox fan using Win Value to show how much smarter the Sox are. Never mind the Yankee injuries and other 2008 speed bumps.

Of course, two can play that game. Courtesy of frequent RAB reader Scott Falivene, let’s take a look at some payroll figures. Scott writes:

Red Sox fans — and their front office it seems — love to cry about the advantage the Yankees have over them in spending. So with the Sox signing Smoltz, I was curious what the cost of their rotation will be, you know, because they can’t compete on the Yankee’s level. I used the top seven guys most likely to see time in the rotation because it’s unlikely the same five guys start and end the year in the rotation.

Here are the total 2009 expenditures in millions, courtesy of Cot’s Baseball Contracts. Homegrown players are denoted with an asterisk:

Red Sox
Beckett 10.5
Dice-K 8.0
Smoltz 5.5
Penny 5.0
Wakefield 4.0
Lester* 0.5
Buchholz* 0.4
Total 33.9
Yankees
Burnett 16.5
Sabathia 14.0
Wang* 5.0
Hughes* 0.4
Kennedy* 0.4
Chamberlain* 0.4
Aceves* 0.4
Total 37.1

Scott adds some more commentary:

Granted, that CC figure is a bit misleading, and the Yanks might still sign Pettitte. But that’s the way [Sabathia’s contract] is structured. $3.2 million sure doesn’t seem that crazy different, no?

Better yet, the Red Sox have “bought” $33M of pitching for 2009 while the Yankees have only “bought” $30.5M. Evil Empire indeed.

Also, EVERY team in baseball has the ability to sign Smoltz and Penny as their 6/7 starters, right? Those Red Sox sure have it a lot tougher than the Yankees. They should really complain more often. I don’t want this to seem as if I’m not aware of the spending advantage the Yankees have but, seriously, aren’t Red Sox fans supposed to be hyper-educated about the game? They need to stop.

We’ll have some more guest opinions on the Red Sox over the next couple of days, but I think Scott raises some valid points. Sure, the Yankees can outspend the Red Sox by a significant amount, but when push comes to shove, officials, fans and columnists in Boston don’t really have much credibility if they start claiming poverty. The Red Sox may not be the wealthiest team around, but they’re in the top five. No one will be too sympathetic to the team’s self-perceived plight.

email
They play the games on the field, but...
Spring Trainging CF battle brewing
  • Ben C

    These posts are frivolous. There is no reasoning with red sox fans.

  • Phil McCracken

    The DiceK figure is misleading too. It doesn’t factor in the posting fee, which makes his total cost around 17M.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      Well, if we’re not counting CC’s true AAV because of the signing bonus, we can’t count the posting fee against the Red Sox either.

      • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

        Heh, I’d actually wish you guys would count both of them, then the gap would shrink by roughly $1M.

  • jim p

    Red Sox. Evil, and wrong. And expensive. I can hardly wait for this season.

  • Ivan

    So what is the sox projected starting rotation?

    Obviously the top three is

    Beckett
    Dice-K
    Lester
    ??
    ??

    • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

      4. Tim Wakefield
      5. Brad Penny
      6. Michael Bowden
      7. Clay Buchholz

      *John Smoltz, when/if healthy enough for rotation duties, will probably force Tim Wakefield to the bullpen if Penny is still healthy and productive.

      • Ivan

        Michael Bowden over Clay Buchholz?

        I think the Sox would call up Buchholz before Bowden if both things were equal.

  • andrew

    I hate Red Sox fans complaining just as much as anyone else, but i think to cite these figures is a little misleading, while the Yankees figure is only slightly higher right now, the addition of Pettitte could skyrocket us to have a 12+ million advantage.
    And then the pitching that the Yankees have “bought” this year will be up around $40 million.

    I still hate the Red Sox.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      That’s why Scott mentioned that Pettitte is still out there.

      But the signing of Pettitte wouldn’t go in the “bought” category. It would count against the overall total, but Pettitte is homegrown.

      • andrew

        True, i could be wrong but I thought “bought” referred to free agent signings, I don’t think just because he is being resigned prevents him from being bought.
        Either way, I agree that the Sox fans should stop complaining about payroll, I just don’t know if this is the best evidence to make that claim.
        I prefer this, which I believe I saw on RAB a few weeks back: only two teams with a 100 million dollar payroll have ever won the WS. Both the red sox.

        • BJ

          yes, andrew. you are wrong. you should feel vindicated in the fact that you realized this fact a strong enough possibility to remark upon its possibility in your rebuttal.

          • andrew

            I feel liberated, thanks.

  • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

    I also find it amusing how of all the talk about the Yankees just being a team of “mercenaries”, they actually have more homegrown players (8) than that of the Tampa Bay Rays (6) and the Boston Red Sox (6) when taking a look at each club’s projected starting lineup, five-man rotation and closer.

    Rays:
    1. David Price
    2. James Shields
    3. Andy Sonnanstine
    4. Carl Crawford
    5. Evan Longoria
    6. B.J. Upton

    Red Sox:
    1. Jon Lester
    2. Jonathan Papelbon
    3. Jacoby Ellsbury
    4. Jed Lowrie
    5. Dustin Pedroia
    6. Kevin Youkilis

    Yankees:
    1. Joba Chamberlain
    2. Phil Hughes
    3. Chien-Ming Wang
    4. Mariano Rivera
    5. Robinson Cano
    6. Brett Gardner/Melky Cabrera
    7. Derek Jeter
    8. Jorge Posada

    • andrew

      Now that’s the evidence we’re looking for.

    • JeffG

      Very nice Jamal.

    • Ivan

      And if you take out DJ, Po and Mo, the yanks still have as much homegrown players as TB or Bos.

    • Rob H.

      The funny part is if you add the entire bullpen into the mix, the Yankees probably are at an even higher number and the gap would be bigger than only 2.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

        Funny? Hardly. The Yanks are paying for Mariano. It happens.

        • Rob H.

          no no, I didn’t mean salary, I meant home-grown players.

    • Hawkins44

      Wow, well played. I’m going to tuck that one away until the next time I have to listen to a chowder head run his mouth about their desperate state in the world and how we “buy” our players….

  • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

    It’s pretty funny how the blueprint of the team that wins the WS is basically the same every single year: core of homegrown players with free agents filling in the gaps.

    The only glaring exception I can think of is the ’04 Sox.

    • pat

      Yet redsox fans think theo was the mastermind who created this blueprint for a mix of farm guys, free agent acquisitions and trades. Umm hello thats exactly how the yankee dynasty team was created. A core of perennial all stars up the middle C, SS, CF, Closer and Pettite, with some smart trades and free agents. Ugh some people will never learn.

    • JeffG

      Nice.

  • JeffG

    Amazing savings and so much value and they still wouldn’t pull the trigger on the player they wanted. Henry taking profits sure must make them sleep good at night.
    Who cares if Boston pays less? Tampa Bay has us all beat. I’m glad we got Tex and CC and AJ… the fact that our team lays out some cash actually makes me feel pretty good.
    Feeling like I should send suitcase of coupons to Boston. Make everyone’s day.

    • AndrewYF

      The only reason to have financial flexibility is so you can make those big-ticket moves without worry.

      Boston failed to make that big-ticket move. Their newly-found financial flexibility means nothing in terms of actual performance.

  • Dave

    What was the point of that article – everyone knows how much the yankees payroll was last season and how much they stunk? Did he need to write thousands of words and use fancy calculations to prove it? And how convenient that he used posada and matsui’s full salaries and calculated their help to the team when both of them were injured for huge chunks of time – Those two completely skewed the numbers event though it was severe injury and not performance that hampered them. The yanks were not only bad last year but extremely unlucky and Im sure a calculation could be done just to prove how unlucky they were – Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Posada and Matsui were all out for huge lengths of time with injury. Cano not only didnt improve but took a nose dive for most of the year.

    And of course, pavano was with us for opening day and that was basically all escept for a few starts here and there. And pettitte was injured almost the entire second half really destroying his numbers even though he didnt go on the dl. So the only person who was injury free and effective of our opening day rotation out of Wang, Moose, Pettitte, Pavano, Hughes and Kennedy was Moose. And our rotation missed was basically missing 3/9th of the lineup for the year with a hole in centerfield because the yanks thought the lineup would be good enough with melky there who also took a nose dive. So we were playing with 1/7ths effective rotation and 5/9ths effective lineup for the season. The only reason we won as many games as we did was the homegrown talent in the bullpen really stepped up and Mo had one of the best years of his life – without the pen, we probably would have finished in fourth we had so much iinjury and ineffectiveness. I dont need some idiotic stat like WP telling me THAT.

    • My Pet Goat

      We’re being a bit defensive, no? The Sox sole advantage these days comes from their cost-controlled position talent. Beyond the injury issues, the Yanks got killed by the regression of Cano and Melky, and the general lack of major league ready positional talent. That’s the point of the article, not Pedroia’s heart or Theo’s brains or the Yanks’ profligate ways. I think the message board reaction here is far testier than the tone of the yfsf article. It’ll be nice to finally see the likes of AJax and the two-headed catching monster in the Bronx.

    • 27 this year

      also, Pavano was rehabbing from TJ last year. He wasn’t with us at all this season until the end.

  • Januz

    I am sick of Boston’s “Little Engine That Could” act. They are a big market team and the difference between them and the Yankees, is NOT as great as say the difference between Boston and Baltimore. I hear all the crying out of Boston over Teixeira. Yet, a team like the Orioles who could not bring one of the two Maryland state natives home (Tex and AJ), have far more reasons to be upset than Boston ( Starting with 12 straight losing seasons, and spreading to a declining fan base). Yet, they acted like professionals, and did not bitch, moan, and complain like Boston did over Teixeira.
    I am the first to give those guys credit for not quitting after being down to the Yankees, and breaking the curse, and for the fans sticking with them (Like Cub fand do). But the curse is over, it is no longer Luke Skywalker and Han Solo, vs “The Evil Empire”. It is time to grow up, and start acting like professionals, not spoiled brats.

    • pat

      It is time to grow up, and start acting like professionals, not spoiled brats.

      Can I get “Things that are never gonna happen”, for 1000 please?

    • Will F.

      Angelos is the problem with baltimore. They are willing to spend money they just make bad decisions. (sosa, lopez, tejada) They are the 80’s yankees before steinbrenner got suspended and couldn’t trade away jeter, posada, pettitte, bernie et. al.. Now no one wants to go there because they are so mismanaged. It’s the same problem we had when maddux and every top of the line free agent refused us back in the day. There is a reason we won four titles and that is that our over bearing owner got humbled. Angelos is the Al Davis of baseball and that is what steinbrenner used to be. Owners that put themselvels above the team.

      • Januz

        I agree with you about Angelos being Rotten. But he is not like Davis or Steinbrenner. Davis is still a Hall of Famer & Steinbrenner still won Championships, and is talked about in some quarters for Cooperstown. Bill Wertz and the Blackhawks is a better comparison.
        The Birds do have some good young talent, such as Wieters, Jones & Martakis. And Macphail is starting to turn things around. The question marks n they keep Nick Martakis long-term? 2: With the rise of the Ravens, can they compete for fan interest? 3: Do they win before the Washington Nationals?
        As for Boston, I really respect Boston fans (The ones who stuck with them for decades after the Ruth trade, that is). I saw Gammons on the final game at Yankee Stadium, and he showed proper respect, for the traditions and the 26 Championships, so people like him are not the culprits ( As I respect Fenway Park, and the great players who played there). The new breed of fans who equate the Yankees with the New York Jets, are the ones I can’t stand. They cry about spending, and rub not winning “This Century” in our noses.

        • Hawkins44

          I love the Wirtz (not wertz) comment… he got boo’d in the United Center during his “moment of silence” right after he passed away lol! Me thinks Angelos is destined for the same fate.

  • Dave

    The yell about how much better they are than the yankees when they win acting like arrogant punks and they cry and complain when they lose pretending like they can never compete with us because they have no money. Its a defense mechanism to them – i CHOOSE to ignore their incessant stupidity. You cant talk to a redsox fan about baseball any more than you can talk to a stripper on the stage about bivariate statistical analysis. There is no point!

    • Will F.

      Red sox fans are like heroin addicts. With all the “poor me’s” Always scamming you for there plight in life. Newsflash! When you win two championships noone feels sorry for you anymore. You can’t continue to play the “loser card” even if it feel so natural. Deal with it. We know you are not used to winning and the meathead mentallity will never let you do it gracefully. Just shut the fuck up as we take our rightful place atop the AL East.

  • The Evil Empire

    Guys check this out,
    http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2yjwifs&s=5
    It’s a picture of the new stadium and the big screen in CF, someone knows who’s starting where already;

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      That’s a bad photoshop job, not a real picture.

  • sevrox

    Looks like the board has Swisher at 1B, Nady in R, Wang on the mound, Gardner in CF and Damon in LF. Evidently just testing the board out – no tea leaves there.

  • http://www.nycitybaseball.com Jay

    I’m with Januz on this one. The Red Sox always attempt to play themselves off as some kind of small market team made up of a bunch of scrappy players that just ooze intensity. Why? Because they’re allowed to look like a bunch of slobs?

    I mean, WTF Boston? Two World Series titles in the last four years and they’re still pissing and moaning as though Aaron Boone is still rounding the bases.

    BTW, anybody catch the 1996 World Series highlights on MLB network last night? I had the unbelievable fortune of being at Game 6 when they won it. My wife was looking at me like I was nuts last night as I was sitting there getting excited like a little kid when they showed Girardi’s triple — something that happened over 12 years ago!

    • Januz

      You are 100% correct about Boston looking like slobs. Manny and Kevin Millar were the worst culprits. I could only imagine Manny having to cut his dreadlocks, wear a suit on the road, and look like Derek Jeter at the plate. He might be even worse in LA, he looks like he plays in a beer league instead of the major leagues.
      That is a prime reason I like the Teixeira signing so much, he carries himself like a professional, unlike Manny.

  • http://www.myspace.com/earlweaverplaque Ace

    The Red Sox didn’t “buy” Beckett’s salary. They traded, arguably, the best position player in MLB for him. He was not a free agent. His salary should not be included in this figure…

    “Better yet, the Red Sox have “bought” $33M of pitching for 2009 while the Yankees have only “bought” $30.5M. ”

    If you want to slam the Sox, which I’m all for, at least get the facts straight.

    • http://www.myspace.com/earlweaverplaque Ace

      The Sox “bought” number for this year should be $23.4. So the Yanks still out spent them by $7.1. Kind of makes the article a moot point IMO.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      he Red Sox didn’t “buy” Beckett’s salary. They traded, arguably, the best position player in MLB for him. He was not a free agent. His salary should not be included in this figure… “Better yet, the Red Sox have “bought” $33M of pitching for 2009 while the Yankees have only “bought” $30.5M. ” If you want to slam the Sox, which I’m all for, at least get the facts straight.

      This artificial distinction that fans of big market teams want to make between signing big money free agents and trading for impending big money free agents and then extending them to big money contracts is intellectually dishonest.

      The only reason Josh Beckett is not on the Marlins is because they’re a small market team who couldn’t afford to pay his hefty arbitration raises and then subsequent free agency demands. The only reason he’s in Boston is because they could. Moreover, the only reason the Sox had Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez in the first place is also their large wallet.

      The Sox adding Beckett (or, for that matter, Pedro) is only different than the Mets adding Santana or the Yanks adding Sabathia (or Cone, Key, Wells, etc.) in terms of minor technicalities. Stop pretending you’re any different from us.

      • http://www.myspace.com/earlweaverplaque Ace

        To acquire Beckett = Hanley Ramirez + $30 million extension

        To acquire AJ Burnett = $82.5 million

        I guess $52.5 million and Hanley Ramirez is a “minor technicality.”

        Don’t be ridiculous dude.

        • http://www.myspace.com/earlweaverplaque Ace

          “The only reason Josh Beckett is not on the Marlins is because they’re a small market team who couldn’t afford to pay his hefty arbitration raises and then subsequent free agency demands. The only reason he’s in Boston is because they could.”

          This should read:

          The only reason he’s in Boston is because they could AND they were willing to part with Hanley Ramirez.

          Moreover, the only reason the Sox had Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez in the first place is also their large wallet.

          This should read:

          Hanley Ramirez signed as an undrafted free agent by the Boston Red Sox in 2000 Anibal Sanchez was signed by the Boston Red Sox as a non-drafted free agent in 2001.

      • AndrewYF

        “Moreover, the only reason the Sox had Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez in the first place is also their large wallet.”

        Yeah, that’s not true. Hanley signed with Boston for $30,000.

        But your overall point is correct, they only got Beckett because they could also take on Lowell, who looked like a shell of his former self. Not too many teams could take that risk.

  • GG

    the really bad part of it is that their pathetic owner communicated such sentiments through the media….what a classless move for him to take

  • RichYF

    YFSF used to be such a great message board. Reading through the comments there vs. reading them 3-5 years ago is like night and day.

    Basically it’s not about the Yankees or the Red Sox for half of the people there. It’s about looking/sounding more educated than the previous poster. Oh, and taking “the high road.” There used to be some serious bashing there with some seriously awesome arguments. Now it’s essentially agreeing with people like PaulSF whose commentary was always so one-sided and boring that I stopped reading as soon as he gained the ability to post. I guess winning the World Series turned all those SFs into smarter individuals.

    Yeah, that’s my rant.

    • AndrewYF

      What’s the fun in merely insulting other people frivolously? If you can make a point that refutes the other guys’ point, you’re more than welcome to. If you start throwing personal insults around because you can’t come up with anything else to say, that’s what gets you booted and ignored.

      • RichYF

        Actually I wasn’t referring to personal insults.

        I have never personally insulted anyone on this web site or that one. “Bashing” referred to players/teams/arguments/etc.

        I don’t need to resort to petty insults to make my point. And if you frequent this site then you’d know that. So I don’t even know where that argument came from.

        I’m knocking the baseball discussion. And I’m pretty sure I’m not insulting anyone by doing so. I just don’t care for arguments where it’s all about making yourself look smarter than someone else. Or patting someone else on the back even though you really don’t agree with them at all just to look “unbiased.” I’ve seen some of the arguments between YF, SF, and a few of the other regulars and it got intense. And rightly so.

        But you’re entitled to your opinion as well. If those type of “debates” intrigue you, then by all means, continue to frequent the board.

        The topic of THIS discussion was derived from YFSF, so I made a comment related to why I don’t take posts there seriously. That’s it.

        If I personally offended you then I wholeheartedly apologize for any inconvenience I may have caused you.

  • Dan

    Dont forget!!! Smoltz’s contract could reach upwards to 10 mill depending on how he does

  • handtius

    I can’t believe this. I posted on that YFSF page and they deleted my post! ridiculous. All I wrote was that they have to take the Yankee injures into account when looking at total value and used Posada as an example. Fucking fascists.

  • Jake H

    Just think the Yanks next year could have a majority of their pitching staff be home grown and cheap.

  • ortforshort

    Why would anybody be surprised by the numbers? The Red Sox have been playing the same money game that the Yankees have this decade – only better. Up until this offseason, that is. The Yankees signing of Teixeira out from under Boston’s nose has turned the tide. I don’t think Boston would have been so quick to get rid of Manny had they thought that they’d lose out on Teixeira this winter. Also, you need to factor in that the Sox spent 52 million to acquire Dice-K in your analysis. That makes their numbers go up even more.

  • al johnson

    I copy and pasted that because I am having a dual with a sox fan (who thinks the yanks are playing for 3rd again this year) which is driving me nuts as a yankee fan obviously, but also they have upgraded head shoulders above there pitching from last year anyway ………….the sox fan says all the yanks do is spend and I am trying to tell him so do the sox but he is not hearing it

  • steve (different one)

    who cares?

  • http://yfsf.org SF

    just take a look at this post by a Sox fan using Win Value to show how much smarter the Sox are. Never mind the Yankee injuries and other 2008 speed bumps.

    This is pretty dishonest representation of Paul’s post at our site. He doesn’t level judgment on the the Yankees’ front office, he acknowledges fully the injury factor: it’s part of the statistic itself as he lays out in the introduction. The post is a look at a new statistic at Baseball Think Factory through the lens of our two teams (since that’s the core of our site). I think you guys owe Paul an apology for characterizing his post in the manner you have. It’s petty and dishonest.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      Let’s see what Paul wrote about the Yankees:

      Wow, I did not expect that to be so ugly…

      What’s amazing is that the Yanks gave significant playing time to three players who provided less value than replacement level…

      The Yanks received $89.8 million of value at a price of $138 million. That’s not exactly efficient, but then I’m not sure that’s a surprise for the post-2001 Yankees.

      It may be an accurate picture of what happened, but it’s also leveling judgment. All things being equal the Yankees wouldn’t have given significant playing time to so many sub-par players, but injuries happened. While injuries are indeed a part of the game and every team suffers, not allowing for them and analyzing a team’s expenditures through that lens could also be considered “petty and dishonest” as well, if we’re going to start tossing around labels.

      I didn’t mean to slight Paul’s work, but when a self-professed Red Sox fan engages in that type of analysis, he’s opening himself up to a critique of it just as I would if I were to show how the Red Sox potentially overspend or cry poverty when they have millions of dollars.

      All of that being said, I’m not even criticizing Paul’s piece. I used it as an example in the ongoing feud between fans of two teams. That’s exactly what it is. I enjoyed Paul’s piece. This is a rather overblown reaction to this whole thing, in my opinion. No one was looking for a fight, and no one on our end ever intended one.

  • Mark Lamster

    Let me just reiterate what SF, my co-proprietor at YFSF, has written above. I’m a big admirer of RAB, and have no interest in starting some kind of ridiculous blog war. That said, characterization of the post on our site is entirely misleading, as is the knee-jerk, reactionary description of Sox fans, and Paul in particular.

    At YFSF, we’re committed to rational, intelligent discussion of the pastime. We do all have our biases, but we try to look at our teams objectively. The post in question used a new and interesting metric. You may not like what it says, and there are very good reasons why it may be irrelevant or of little utility in thinking about the Yankees, but that’s no reason to disparage the writer for simply demonstrating its results.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      How am I disparaging anyone? I didn’t call him names. I simply said that he’s using a new stat — an interesting one at that — to show how the Red Sox were smarter than the Yankees. There were no disparaging intention on my part, and I don’t really see how I said something that could be construed as an insult. Your co-proprietor was the one who said that we were being “petty and dishonest.” I simply offered up a minor critique of Paul’s piece.

      My saying “Yet, still, their fans insist that the Red Sox may come out ahead” is pretty tame language all things considered here.

      • Mark Lamster

        I’m not going to argue semantics with you, but it’s pretty clear that paul’s intention was not to “show much smarter the Sox are,” which is what you suggest.

        I understand you are not responsible for the comments here, but the general tenor was set by your post, and the first comment, “there is no reasoning with sox fans” [sic] are not indicative of paul’s work.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

          Fair enough, Mark. My intention was not to disparage Paul’s work or to come across as snarky. For that, my apologies to you guys at YFSF. I think the site’s a good one, and you’re are respectful. If I came across as disrespectful, just know it wasn’t my intention.

  • http://yfsf.org SF

    to show how the Red Sox were smarter than the Yankees.

    This may be simple subjectivity, but I didn’t read anything like that in Paul’s piece. I saw mathematical analysis: the Yankees played people who didn’t provide the value of their salary, the Sox had performances that fare exceeded salary, at least in terms of this new metric. I read (and have re-read, again, just to make sure) nothing judging the Yankees as stupider than the Sox. You took Paul’s post and summarized it in your opener as “a Sox fan showing how much smarter their team is “, which is both snarky and a mischaracterization. Paul was simply presenting the new statistic’s measurement of value provided, which he did honestly and openly. There was no interpretation in Paul’s piece in the terms that you presented, at all. That, I felt, was dishonest. If it’s just blog snark not meant with spite, then fine, I don’t think it’s that fair to Paul but this is your blog and you can write how you choose; it won’t weaken the other fine work you guys do here in my mind but for this post of Paul’s I find it misplaced.

    As an aside, I don’t understand the obsession with Yankee fans denying their spending advantage (or Sox fans converse obsession with focusing on nothing but that advantage). As a Sox fan, I know the Sox have the means to sign many players and are a privileged franchise, financially. But the Yankees’ strength is in their franchise value, their visibility, their marketability, their long history, and, impressively, their economic might. Acknowledging their deep pockets doesn’t weaken or demean their successes: Yankee fans shouldn’t feel insecure about this, just as Sox fans shouldn’t dwell on it incessantly. It is a real context though, this spending advantage; I am more interested in seeing how their financial advantage is utilized than I am complaining that it gives them an unfair advantage. All advantages are not unfair ones. I wish more Yankees fans AND Sox fans would recognize this.

  • Neil H

    Is this a real debate?

    The Yankees total payroll is somewhere around $200m, the Red Sox $140m – why on earth are we trying to get into a debate on whether our rotation is as costly or not?

    Seriously, if you just compare the cost of JD Drew against Brett Gardner, those Sox b@$t@rds outspend us like 1,000,000 to 1. (or at least 50: 1)

    Why do we even care, we spend what we spend, they spend what they spend – why don’t we just go win a title and then start comparing?

  • LocklandSF

    The lame attempts at humor here, the snaky comments, the typical Yankee fan arrogance, is exactly why a site like YFSF is a great place. I’m not saying Red Sox fans can’t be just as bad, they can. There is almost no other place online where fans from both teams can argue and debate in a civilized manner about our favorite teams without resorting to cheap insults.

    I had admired this site for a long time, it’s a shame it turns out that you’re all just as bad as the rest.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      I sincerely hope you’re referring to the commenters and not our work. At no point were we trying to be snarky or arrogant with this post. There’s way too much sensitivity online these days.

      • http://yfsf.org SF

        Ben, I appreciate your candor in response to Mark above. Personally I think the work here is excellent – if I had more time I’d stop by more often. This one obviously struck the wrong tone for me, especially considering how much work and seeming objectivity Paul put into that post.

        Anyhow, I think this is all proverbial water under the bridge at this point.

  • LocklandSF

    Yes, I’m referring to the comments, but your characterization of Paul’s post created the environment for those comments. The work you do here is still first rate. I was just pointing out why I think YFSF is not only great content but needed, since people here were disparaging that site all together.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

      I gotcha. It certainly wasn’t, as I said above, my intention to disparage Paul’s work. I think the context and what I was going for in the original post just didn’t work out as I had intended.

  • Mark Lamster

    Okay, then! Now we’re all on the same page. Now let’s just go get those pesky Rays.

  • Jim C.

    Since Mr. Falivene’s cherry-picking numbers, how about these?

    Yanks infield: $91 million
    Sox infield: $19 million.

    Hell, I’ll even throw in the the world’s most overpriced backup shortstop and an extra $5 million for Varitek and they’re still only up to $34 million. So yeah, I think the Yanks have a little more money to throw around. Unless of course an extra $70-$80 million in payroll every year is insignificant.

    I think the only ones who refer to the Sox as “the little engine that could” are hyper defensive Yankees fans. The difference is that, while the Sox throw out ungodly amounts of cash, the Yanks reserves are bottomless.

  • http://none Toilet

    Yankee fans have an identity crisis.

    They tell everyone that they don’t care how much their team spends.

    Then they work like hell to try and find ways to make themselves look no worse than other teams.

    You really do insult your readers intelligence when you blatantly cherry-pick like this.

  • Pingback: Yankees team up with Sony for new state-of-the-art technology « Zell’s Pinstripe Blog

  • Scott Falivene

    Just to be clear: I know the Yankees spend an ungodly amount of money, and no i’m not trying to rationalize it or cherry pick numbers to insult anyone. This was a “rant” and not supposed to be the end-all be-all take on the subject, please do not take it so seriously, eh?