Yanks will probably block Posada from WBC
ByIt came as a surprise, but earlier this week we got word that Jorge Posada plans to play in the WBC. As many commenters noted, the Yankees would probably rather have him in camp working with the new pitchers. That, and he’s coming off pretty major shoulder surgery. Because Posada ended the season on the DL, the Yanks have the right to deny his entry into the tournament. According to Bryan Hoch’s latest, it appears that they’ll do just that.
“I am sure he would love to play [in the World Baseball Classic], but he is currently rehabbing from surgery and would not be ready,” Yankees general manager Brian Cashman said.
There’s no direct quote, but Hoch says that Jason Zillo confirmed the team’s stance. It’s understandable. The WBC is a luxury. It’s a nice little event we have every few years, and it’s somewhat enjoyable to some fans (yeah, I’m hedging here). What’s more important is Jorge’s ability to play for the Yankees. He signed a huge contract after the 2007 season, and after year one he hasn’t lived up to it. I would think that fulfilling his obligation to the Yankees would be more important to him than a — I don’t want to say meaningless, but — meaningless tournament.
Jorge is an integral part of the 2009 club. There’s no sense in risking his health by having him play in the WBC. If he just DHs, maybe, just maybe I can see the argument for allowing him to play. But even then, he’s got to get to know the new guys. And Joba.
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The Mason Williams Watch
This would make sense when combined with the ESPN Deportes article from earlier.
You mean the one in which Google Translate called Posada “Receiver of mules”?
I love it when you talk dirty.
http://www.gearsandwidgets.com.....dgoing.jpg
Oh, I know exactly where this is going:
I’d tivo that.
I’m pretty sure el receptor de los mulos is an idiomatic expression referring to a heavy workload =P
If i’m Hal and Hank, there is no way I let him play. Even if he is only DH’ing. I want that shoulder healthy and I want him learning the staff. Absolutely not.
Plus, if he’s in camp, he has more time to work directly with Joba to convince the young hurler that he should be in the bullpen.
calls time out in the 5th inning to tell Joba his stuff blows and that he should relieve
having sat out most of 2008, Posada’s hands are probably way too soft to play in the WBC.
he’ll need all of spring training just to generate enough urine to be ready for opening day.
Ironically for Jorge and all the other hand-pissers out there, it’s a universally accepted fact among medical professionals that urine makes your hands softer, not harder. Jorge’s pee does the exact opposite of what he claims that it does.
I can’t even believe Jorge wants to play in the WBC. That is a slap in the face to the Yankees and Yankee fans. He should be focused 100% on getting in camp, staying healthy, and learning the new pitching staff.
My money is on Jorge’s new contract being a waste of money.
relax.
Please tell me “Pappageorgio” is your real name or there’s some other valid/humorous reason why you’re misspelling it.
His name’s not Pappageorgio! It’s Rusty Griswold and he’s a C+ student!
Wow, it’s nothing short of amazing how differently Americans view the WBC compared to their Latin Americans counterparts. I was pissed when Mariano Rivera did not pitch for Panama in 2006, but it seems a lot of non-Latino, American-born (I’m only using Latinos because I can’t really speak for the Asian fans) fans share Joe’s sentiment about the WBC being a “meaningless” tournament.
Hell, the International Baseball Federation (IBAF) published their first ever world rankings earlier this week, yet not one American newspaper here in NY has printed a single word about USA ranking second to Cuba. [Panama was ranked 9th ahead of Puerto Rico (11th), Venezuela (15th) and the Dominican Republic (17th); it pleases me endlessly that those three ranked behind Panama, especially DR.] It’s just really weird how international baseball matters not one iota to the American fan.
*Oh, if anyone cares, here are the rankings: http://tinyurl.com/7exkyu
I think the meaningless comes from the fact that not all the best players are competing
No, but it is on a grander scale than that. Honestly, how many natural Americans do you know – that have parents who were also natural Americans – that cares about sports on an international level? Soccer, the most popular sport in the entire world matters so little to those kind of people here. NASCAR is a somewhat popular sport here, but Formula 1 Racing, one of the most popular international racing organizations, is not. Same thing with the NBA: hugely popular here, but for the most part, nobody is really devoted to the basketball squad during the Olympics or other international competition.
It’s just odd how little American fans who come from non-immigrated parents care about sports on an international stage.
It’s part of the larger, more overarching American primacy complex.
We generally don’t care about things not wholly or intrisically “American”. Sports, politics, world issues, cuisine, culture, etc. Americans are very egocentric.
My guess is its simply a geographic issue: We’re a relatively young, huge country with only two true neighbors, neither of whom is a world power; hence, there’s little naturally compelling reason to think about internationalism much as we’re not confronted with it as directly as, say, France or Russia, who have numerous neighbors who’s fortunes and actions have a historical, frequent, and ever-present effect on what happens inside their respective borders.
As a political scientist, I’ve said many times: Geography is the most powerful force in the world. Everything flows from the wellspring of geography, even thought.
As a political scientist
Impressive
He also has a second job as an architect.
I was actually thinking about being a city planner instead.
You ever read Guns, Germs and Steel?
Essentially, it argues that the entirety of human history — literally since the rise of man — has been shaped by geographic factors.
Which plants and animals were native to where, which parts of the world were cut off from which others by which kinds of geographic boundaries — and more importantly, which were connected and allowed for the easy flow of domesticated plants and animals; new ideas and technologies; and, possibly most importantly, germs.
No, sounds good, I’ll check it out. More fodder for my cannons.
It won the pulitzer about 10 years ago. Great book. He adds in some biological stuff too, about why certain plants and animals are especially well suited for domestication. Essentially, Eurasia is huge and so it had a better chance of having more of those kinds of plants. And, since it’s wide instead of tall (like the America), you could domesticate a plant in Turkey somewhere and the ecosystem over in Spain would be similar enough that you could probably take it over there and immediately start growing it. That’s an advantage that societies developing in the Americas and Africa didn’t have. Also, the Sahara desert, the desert in what’s now Mexico, and the Isthmus of Panama isolated societies in those parts of the world from each other, which prevented the spread of crops and technology, whether through trade or conquest.
Anyway. Cool.
We’re a relatively young, huge country with only two true neighbors…
Canada a country? http://icanhascheezburger.file.....icture.jpg
In all seriousness, that’s an excellent point. Actually, it’s the best reasoning I’ve ever heard on the subject.
I’m a big fan of hurling. Love the sliotar.
thats dead on, throw in the fact that football isn’t played on the international stage, and baseball WBC has been played once (and has its flaws).
Australia doesn’t do much watching of the WS and americans don’t watch the rugby world cup
I’ll watch the World Cup, and I’ll probably watch some of the WBC. But on the whole, I don’t care about International competitions because I don’t like the mixing of sports and nationalism.
The Olympics, for example, are supposed to be about the spirit of competition and the sports themselves, but what really comes out is a petty nationalism that, in the 21st century, human beings should be past.
Always been, always will be.
Basketball is huge in other parts of the world. I lived in rural village in China for a year and they could care less about Kung Fu but know everything about Kobe.
That’s actually a really interesting point…
how much would varitek cost ?
Ha! Good one.
in dollars or in dignity?
What, to have killed? Deported? Brainwashed? Framed for the murder of Elizabeth Short?
Surely, you don’t mean how much it would cost to have him play baseball, do you? Because that would be ludicrous.
Framed for the murder of Elizabeth Short?
Dude, the autopsy photos of her are frickin’ awesome.
CREEPER.
Was bout to call him that too.
Did anyone notice that the yankees talked to Smoltz before he signed, interesting.
In my opinion, we should go after Peavy or Sheets, and have a bona-fide starting rotation.
Peavy doesn’t want to come out East.
Sheets has shoulder, elbow and back problems.
No.
Peavy again?
It’s like whack-a-mole with that guy. Ugh. NO.
Oh come on. It’s been at least a couple of days since the last Peavy post…
And even longer since the last Peavey post!
Where did that pro-Peavy kid go, anyway? He was awesome.
yeah omg dude youre right he was awesome whered he go we should totally get him back just like we should get peavey back i like that guy hes a really good pitcher
I knew it was you TSJC. You broke my heart.
Heh.
Mondesi, I made my bones when you were dating cheerleaders.
Either you guys forgot how dominant Peavy has been, or you don’t think the Yankees can’t pull it off, either way you guys are missing something.
or you don’t think the Yankees CAN* pull it off,
or you don’t think the Yankees can’t pull it off,
… or we don’t think the Yankees SHOULD pull it off.
We have CC, Wang, Joba, and Burnett now, plus Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves, and Coke soon and Brackman, Betances, McAllister, Bleich, Sanchez, and Marshall later. Peavy is not a need, just a luxury. We need the prospects it would take to acquire him far more than we need him.
Pass.
I fixed it right on top of your comment. There are more question marks with those young arms than you may think
There are more question marks with those young arms than you may think
There’s always questionmarks with young arms. Doesn’t mean we should trade for Peavy. We shouldn’t.
I understand playing for his country but he needs to worry about his rehab.
Jorge is an American Citizen. The Unted States is his country… just saying.
Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States. Puerto Ricans are American citizens, so both teams are “his country”… just saying.
Really? I knew Puerto Rican-born people were allowed to freely travel back and forth between there and the USA, but I did not know they were granted citizenship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jones-Shafroth_Act
Puerto Rican’s are granted what is called “Olympic Citizenship”. So even though they are a Commonwealth Of The United States (And hence are citizens of the USA, and can freely travel between PR and the US), they are considered a country in the MIND of the International Olympic Committee.
I am glad there there is no Posada in this event (I care about the real “WORLD” event. The World Series, and we need a healthy Jorge for that). I actually have ZERO interest in the WBC, it is an artificial tournament, that has about as much interest and relevancy to me as the President’s Cup golf tournament (The Ryder Cup and World Juniors Hockey are the only international events that interest me). It is not just me. Very few people in this country care about international sporting events, except the Olympics and the Ryder Cup (Even Davis Cup tennis, and World Cup soccer has limited interest). I wish certain people would stop ramming soccer and the WBC down our throats, when the NCAA Tournament, Hockey, the NBA, golf, the NFL, College Football and of course, MAJOR LEAGUE baseball are more important to us.
Also, Jorge Posada was born in Puerto Rico, so your point is rendered moot.
Mr. Pappageorgio is my real name.
Gotcha. It was driving my a little nuts, sorry. Never seen it spelled that way before.
Oh, and: http://i435.photobucket.com/al.....Button.jpg
(h/t to Jack)
Ha! Popped my h/t cherry.
Jack, your brilliant screencap is going to be a frequent hat tip, trust me.
If a player does not end on the DL then the team cannot stop him right? Also could teams block young guys for certain reasons? If they wanted Bruce or Joba or Lincecum, can their teams block those guys from playing?
Posada needs to wisen up and do what’s best for the Yankees. I love him as a player but a few things bother me about him:
1. It pisses me off when players hit 50 points over their career average in their contract year. If he is capable of hitting .340, why isn’t he hitting .300 on a consistent basis?
2. His Center Stage appearance made him come across, to me, as a bit of an ignorant prick. I don’t have specific quotes but he seemed to have an attitude problem.
3. The Yanks hand him a huge 4 year contract at his age and he is now talking about playing in the WBC instead of attending camp with 2 new SPs and Joba who he hasnt worked with very much.
Come on Jorge.
When one talks with Michael Kay one must go down to his level.
whoops–html formatting fail:
<q cite =”"2. His Center Stage appearance made him come across, to me, as a bit of an ignorant prick. I don’t have specific quotes but he seemed to have an attitude problem
When one talks with Michael Kay one must go down to his leve
fuck. i can’t get this thing right!
“1. It pisses me off when players hit 50 points over their career average in their contract year. If he is capable of hitting .340, why isn’t he hitting .300 on a consistent basis?”
Because batting average is something that fluctuates wildly and is not a good measure of consistency.
Even in that incredible year, his IsoP–SLG minus BA– (.206) didn’t stray too far from his career mark (.200) and his IsoD–OBP minus BA– was at .088 that year, which was lower than his career mark of .103.
That year was a fluky year BA wise for Jorge. And BA is not a good measure of consistency.
1. It pisses me off when players hit 50 points over their career average in their contract year. If he is capable of hitting .340, why isn’t he hitting .300 on a consistent basis?
Yeah, I’m always pissed off when players on my team perform well for us. Bastards.
Seriously, though, it’s not like Jorge’s non-contract years are craptastical. He’s damn good. He just had a career year. If every year was a career year, there’d be no such things as career years; hell, we could just plug all the players stats into an XBOX and simulate the whole season, saving averybody a lot of time. Your criticism is strange.
2. His Center Stage appearance made him come across, to me, as a bit of an ignorant prick. I don’t have specific quotes but he seemed to have an attitude problem.
I don’t even remotely give half a crap about CenterStage, nor should you. CenterStage appearances don’t show up in the W/L columns.
OR…
Ty Cobb stabbed a guy.
3. The Yanks hand him a huge 4 year contract at his age and he is now talking about playing in the WBC instead of attending camp with 2 new SPs and Joba who he hasnt worked with very much.
He wants to do something he’s legally and contractually allowed to do, he’s a grownup. We’re going to block him from doing it for the good of the team, we’re grownups. Jorge is still going to bust his ass all season long to help us win, he’s a grownup.
I fail to see what the big deal is here.
Dude, if you keep telling everyone that Ty Cobb stabbed a guy they’re going to believe it.
It’s actually kind of a cool idea for a t-shirt though.
“Cobb mastered baseball, but he never mastered his temper. During his career he was involved in numerous fights, both on and off the field, and several profanity-laced shouting matches. A racist, Cobb once slapped a black elevator operator for being “uppity.” When a black night watchman intervened, Cobb pulled out a knife and stabbed him. (The matter was later settled out of court.) On another occasion he climbed into the stands and savagely beat a spectator who had called him a “half-nigger.”"
http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.....p?id=h-733
Yikes. I stand corrected.
lol i was going to say, he really did stab someone.
“and savagely beat a spectator who had called him a “half-nigger.””
Is that the crippled one, or was that a different spectator?
Sadly (or perhaps happily), no… those were two different spectators on two different occasions that he climbed into the stands to pummel, Ron Artest-style.
Oh.
I was watching the Ken Burns documentary and they said that when a black groundskeeper once tried to shake Ty Cobb’s hand, Cobb chased him back to the dugout and began beating the crap out of the guy. Not only that, but the wife of the groundskeeper tried to intervene and Cobb began strangling her for doing so. When his teammates came to break it up, the son of a bitch began punching his teammates. He truly was a terrible human being, it’s fascinating.
Ty Cobb stabbed a guy.
I thought he shot the fucker.
Knowing Cobb, he probably did both.
You knew him personally? That’s awesome!
Also, you just shattered a lot of fantasies around here.
Maybe Rebecca is like the Richard Alpert guy on Lost: she doesn’t age.
January 21 can’t get here soon enough.
Yup.
In Mike’s last chat I think Mike said 24 is the best show on TV and someone else said House is the best. I was like “Um, Sayid Jarrah would like a word with you people.”
“24″ sucks balls. God, I hate that show.
You’ve run afoul of SCOTUS, my friend: http://tinyurl.com/78422h
(h/t: Andrew Sullivan)
Ya, I’m not a big fan of 24 either. I like the Big Bang Theory. Mainly because I can relate to the Mensa’s on that show.
TSJC better not get in my face… ’cause I’ll drop that motherfucker!
“Ya, I’m not a big fan of 24 either. I like the Big Bang Theory. Mainly because I can relate to the Mensa’s on that show.”
One would think a member of MENSA would know how to properly employ an apostrophe.
OOOOOOOOOOOH BURN!!!!!!!!!!!
I’m a bad man.
You’ve run afoul of SCOTUS, my friend.
Scalia watched the season premier of 24 and he JIZZED IN HIS PANTS…
Haha, I expected you were going to say something like; “How does it relate to you, you have trouble with the ladies?”.
Is that semicolon right there? I have no idea.
“Scalia watched the season premier of 24 and he JIZZED IN HIS PANTS…”
I just snarfed coffee all over my desk.
“Is that semicolon right there? I have no idea.”
lol. You know me (and my asshole-ish ways) too well, Popavero. (I meant the apostrophe in “Mensa’s.” Your use of “Mensas” was plural, not possessive. No apostrophe.)
Ha, I know that but I meant in that post. Where I quoted you as calling me out for having no luck with the ladies.
Popavero-lol
You remind me of my 5th grade teacher.
Sr. Anne
I’m waiting for one of the two of you to stab each other.
Nah, things are more jejune than angry.
Internet stab?
What a coincidence his “career year” came in his contract year.
Dont be a shithead. He played his ass off because he wanted to get paid.
All I’m asking for is .300 from a guy who is capable of hitting .340 to get a new contract. That is not unreasonable. He should be putting th extra work in every year, not just his contract year.
The big deal is he isn’t thinking of the team first but rather thinking of the WBC first and that is a bonehead move any way you slice it up.
Jorge Posada’s BABIP in 2007 was .389. That’s off the charts and 66 points higher than his career average. That probably had something to do with his hitting .338
.338 is the incredible exception for Jorge Posada. He’s not a high batting average type guy.
Jorge Posada’s BABIP in 2007 was .389. That’s off the charts and 66 points higher than his career average. That probably had something to do with his hitting .338
How many more balls did he put in play that year? and how many did he average in play over his career? Serious question, I really dont know.
That’s not what BABIP measures. It’s not about Jorge putting more balls into play that year, it’s about more of the balls that he did put into play that year ending up as hits, something that is very luck-dependent and not something he can control.
A BABIP of .389 just means he was really lucky that year and benefited from numerous seeing-eye singles.
you might want to read up on, i don’t know, the last decade or so of baseball analysis.
Nice response. Way to back up your opinion.
Jeter is a career .306 hitter. he is a player we would describe as someone who “hits for average”.
yet here are his batting averages over the last 12 years or so:
.314
.291
.324
.349
.339
.311
.297
.324
.292
.309
.343
.322
.300
do you see how there are 20-30 point swings ALL THE TIME in there?
you can’t entirely “control” your batting average.
sometimes you hit a line drive right at a fielder. sometimes you hit a topper 6 inches off the plate and you get a hit.
it varies from year to year. in 2007, Posada got a little luckier on the balls he put in play.
he didn’t do it ON PURPOSE. he simply can’t entirely control it.
20-30 isnt 50
How many more balls did Posda put in play in 2007? and how many did he average in play over his career?
Jeter’s highest batting average is .349.
his lowest is .291
that’s a 58 point difference.
i have no idea what you are even asking about how many balls he put into play.
“you might want to read up on, i don’t know, the last
decadecentury or so of baseball analysis.”Fixed.
What a coincidence his “career year” came in his contract year.
That’s why they call them coincidences, and not conspiracies.
Dont be a shithead. He played his ass off because he wanted to get paid.
Or, he played his butt off, like he always does, because he wanted to get to the World Series. There’s that possibility too.
All I’m asking for is .300 from a guy who is capable of hitting .340 to get a new contract.
I don’t think you understand what “capable” means. I’m capable of spinning a basketball on my finger for 5 minutes. However, 9 times out of 10, if I try to spin a basketball on my finger, it’s immediately going to fall off.
Jorge is “capable” of hitting .340, he’s “capable” of hitting .400. He’s not likely to do either one on a consistent basis. He got lucky, we reaped the benefits of it. Calm down and stop reading shit into it that isn’t there.
That’s all bullshit.
Luck doesn’t raise your average 50 points. He had a career year because he is a greedy prick who wanted to get paid just like Adrian
…Beltre before him
Do you think A-Rod is a prick for not duplicating his 2007 contract year numbers? If not, you’re being inconsistent with your opinions.
Although ARod was off the charts that year he has had COMPARABLE numbers. He hit 50+ Hr 2 other times and 47 another year. he had over 130 rbi 4 other years. He stole over 20 bases a few other times.
Posada has never even come close to hitting .338 or an OPS of .970. But to be fair his HR and RBI numbers were consistent.
I agree with you to a certain extent. I believe players try harder in contract years and try to be better that year because numbers show that. Ryan Dempster, AJ Burnett, and Manny this year to a certain point showed that. Tori Hunter, Gary Matthew Jr., Rowand, and other players have showed that also. I’m sure it has to do with alot of luck but it happens to often to be all luck. Or they could be juicing, who knows but it has to do with more than luck.
Posada has never even come close to hitting .338 or an OPS of .970. But to be fair his HR and RBI numbers were consistent.
And that sentence should be screaming out LUCK to you.
Not selfish-contract-fueled greed.
Think about it this way: if Jorge was truly capable of posting a .338/.426/.543 every year, why wouldn’t he? Wouldn’t a catcher who posted that line constantly be worth WAY MORE than the actual 2007 Jorge Posada, who only posted that line occasionally? Wouldn’t we have paid him even more money?
But tommie don’t you agree that certain players cna play better than their career averages? Did luck really have to do wtih Ryan Dempster’s season or Rowand’s before he got his 60 million deal? I don’t agree that Posada can be a 330 hitter every year but I do believe that certain players are better than what they put up. In contract years it seems like players can be so good but then after they get their money, they go back to their old ways. Correct me if I’m wrong, if there are more stats to it then I see but I do think certain players train harder/play better/and put a lot more effort into the game in contract years. Even Mike was saying that we should keep Nady and hope for a monster contract year. I don’t fully agree wtih Ace’s statement but I can see where he is coming from.
Wouldn’t a catcher who posted that line constantly be worth WAY MORE than the actual 2007 Jorge Posada, who only posted that line occasionally? Wouldn’t we have paid him even more money?
First of all, you make a good point.
That said…I’m not saying he has to hit .338 every year. I’m just saying you can’t just chalk up a 50 point spike in a contract year to luck. It seems odd to me that he was consistently unlucky his entire career until his contract year. I don’t buy it.
If anyone can tell me how many balls he put in play in 2007 as compared to his career average for balls in play and the numbers are basically the same, I will concede my argument.
I dont know where to get the # of balls put in play stat.
Even Mike was saying that we should keep Nady and hope for a monster contract year. I don’t fully agree wtih Ace’s statement but I can see where he is coming from.
Thank you for not jumping down my throat for having an opinion and immediately chalking everything up to “luck”
this has been studied and debunked.
what the study showed is that players might play MORE in a contract year, in other words, they are more likely to play through minor injuries, but the study didn’t show that they played BETTER.
for every example of a player that played better in a contract year, there is an example of a player that played worse.
Can’t remember who, but I read someon’s study on contract years, saying the phenomenon is basically BS.
That for every 2008 Ryan Dempster, there’s a 2006 Andruw Jones.
Look, baseball isn’t a max-effort sport, it’s a timing and luck sport. Show me how Jorge “tried harder” in order to get that .338 BA because it was a contract year and he just wanted to get paid.
I think we scare away some of the newer posters like that.
Why was Mariano much better in 2008 than in 2007?
Oh alright. I kind of knew that “theory”. But who knows, maybe Dempster watched more film, threw more bullpens, maybe Tori Hunter hit the batting cage more or worked on his hitting more in practice. These things are not recorded and that is why we don’t know if they did try harder or it was just all luck. I just find it hard to believe that a guy like Dempster could put up his 08 season and people can call it alll luck. I don not agree with that at.
Thank you for not jumping down my throat for having an opinion and immediately chalking everything up to “luck”
also, stop playing the martyr here.
you called the opposing viewpoints “bullshit” and said anyone who disagreed with you was “being a shithead”. your words.
we can all be civil here and have an intelligent conversation, but stop pretending like you were innocently expressing yourself and everyone attacked you.
let’s move on, ok?
Why was Mariano much better in 2008 than in 2007?
Someone asked this about ARod in his contract year and it’s the same answer…
Mariano had comparable numbers several other years of his career.
Jorge has never come close to .338
Why was Mariano much better in 2008 than in 2007?
Cause he knew he was cashing in no matter what, much like Jeter knows?
But he is a different type than Dempster or Gary Matthews.
It’s not that we don’t like that you have an opinion. It’s that it’s odd. He didn’t happen to hit .338 because it was his contract year. He hit .338 because he had a monster year and got a little bit of help along the way.
If you look at his isolated power (SLG-BA) and isolated differential (OBP-BA), his season was right on track with his career numbers. His batting average spiked which happened to trigger spikes in the other numbers but the differences between them stayed right with his career averages.
Ace:
I’m just saying you can’t just chalk up a 50 point spike in a contract year to luck.
Sure you can. You just don’t want to.
It seems odd to me that he was consistently unlucky his entire career until his contract year. I don’t buy it.
That’s because you’re still looking at it backwards. He wasn’t “consistently unlucky his entire career”, he was just extremely lucky THAT ONE YEAR.
If anyone can tell me how many balls he put in play in 2007 as compared to his career average for balls in play and the numbers are basically the same, I will concede my argument. I dont know where to get the # of balls put in play stat.
It’s not the number of balls put in play. IT’S THE PERCENTAGE OF THEM THAT END UP AS HITS. Jorge is putting the same number of balls in play as he always is; the ability to put the ball on the bat and put in in the correct 90-degree angle is a controllable skill. What he can’t control is whether the liner he hits up the third base line is at a 41-degree vertical angle or a 43-degree vertical angle, where one may be a hit and one may be caught by the third baseman. What he can’t control is whether he’s hitting grounders in the hole to Orlando Cabrera or Michael Young.
Jorge puts balls in play a lot, because he’s a good hitter. That year, he had a tremendous spike in one area and one area in particular in his numbers: the percentage of those balls put in play that became hits and not outs. It’s not that all of a sudden he started hitting the ball more, it’s that all of a sudden the times he hit the ball became strangely more productive.
It’s luck. Not Jorge’s control.
If anyone can tell me how many balls he put in play in 2007 as compared to his career average for balls in play and the numbers are basically the same, I will concede my argument.
BABiP = hits/balls in play. So, divide hits by BABiP for any given year to find out that number. BABiP is on baseball-reference, no?
you called the opposing viewpoints “bullshit” and said anyone who disagreed with you was “being a shithead”. your words.
Those were directed at one poster. The were not at everyone.
TommyJohnSC… I apologize for saying “dont be a shithead”
Jorge is putting the same number of balls in play as he always is
I want to see those numbers.
For what it’s worth
2007 (career)
LD% 22.1 (20.3)
GB% 40.4 (42.4)
FB% 37.5 (37.3)
IFFB% 4.5 (6.6)
HR/FB 13.0 (15.2)
Take his PA’s, subtract strikeouts and walks. You’ve got balls in play.
Dammit, Ace. I was just sitting down to read The 49th Parallel by John Dos Passos (how hot am I now, UWS?), but you’ve been arguing this for a while, so:
To get the balls in play number, you take his total plate appearances, subtract out strikeouts, subtract walks and HBP, subtract home runs (I think BABIP excludes homers). Am I missing any? Aren’t those the only outcomes where you don’t put the ball in play?
So, 2007:
589 PA – 98 K – 74 BB – 6 HBP – 20 HR = 391 balls in play
66% of PA resulted in a ball in play
2006:
545 PA – 97 K – 64 BB – 11 HBP – 23 HR = 350 balls in play
64% of PA resulted in a ball in play
2004 (since 2005 was a down year):
547 PA – 92K – 88 BB – 9 HBP – 21 HR = 337 balls in play
61% of PA resulted in a ball in play
Jorge Posada Balls In Play
2000-2006 = 345
2007 = 391
Is it luck that he happened to put 46 more balls in play than his career average?
As you can see above, you’re totally ignoring that he had more PA in 2007 than he had in any previous year.
No I’m not. According to FanGraphs he had
624 in 2000
598 in 2002
588 in 2003
and
589 in 2007
And that will be the end of it says Joe.
http://www.legaljuice.com/judge.jpg
The thing many people forget is that the big contract year, due to the arb & team control years, generally come when a player is entering or in his prime, and therefore it is most likely he will have his best years.
Otherwise whats with the “balls in play” you want to see the # of times Posada isn’t walking or striking out vs the number of times he gets up to the plate? If so, go on fangraphs and have fun with excel.
But otherwise you really think that Posada waited around for 12 years, numerous arb decisions & contracts, and then finally chose to hit .338…come on
AND, you’re ignoring his considerably higher BB% in 2002 and 2003.
According to Wikipedia:
Balls in Play = AB – K – HR + SF
Based on that equation Jorge had 46 more balls in play than his career average in 2007.
Whether or not BABIP takes HRs into account… For these purposes (determining whether luck/randomness was involved or he used the force to put up better numbers in one particular season), wouldn’t it make sense to include HRs in Jorge’s “balls in play” caluculation? If you keep HRs, you get:
2007: 69.7%
2006: 68%
2004: 65.4%
Again. Ignoring the effects of the other data.
I agree, Mondesi. They’re not outs. They just happen to not touch down in play. Semantics, of course, but Ace wants to penalize him for his higher HR% and BB%.
So his 2007 hits were right inline with his career numbers. Looks like its more luck than you think.
Ace wants to penalize him for his higher HR% and BB%.
How do I want to penalize him? I didn’t make up these formulas. When you pull the BABIP# from FanGraphs or BaseballReference that is what they use. I didnt invent this stuff guys.
So his 2007 hits were right inline with his career numbers. Looks like its more luck than you think.
2000-2006 Balls in Play = 345
2007 = 391
2000-2006 Hits = 132
2007 = 171
That is NOT “right in line with his career?”
You want to penalize him because you’re going with the sheer number of balls in play. Home runs do not count as balls in play. Walks do not count as balls in play. Yet he had a higher percentage of these in the year before 2007. So yes, he had fewer balls in play, but had more walks and home runs. Those are good things.
So, if he has fewer walks and fewer home runs in 2007, by definition he’s putting more balls into play.
Also, the 2000, 2001, and 2002 data is skewed because Jorge’s K% was so much higher back in the day. From 2003 – 2007 his K rate was down in the low 20s (a tick under 20 in 2007). So, again, he’s clearly going to put more balls in play in those situations.
In other words, sheer balls in play is a terrible way to measure anything. There are so many other factors to consider (HR, BB, and K rates, namely).
here is my question: what are you trying to PROVE by saying Posada put more balls in play in 2007?
that he can hit .340 every year but chooses not to?
I was just sitting down to read The 49th Parallel by John Dos Passos
Is that a sequel to the 42nd Parallel? (When trying to impress broads, it helps to have your facts straight.)
The only way to impress a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show… and see if she likes the goods.
Damn you Sweet Dick Willie. Damn you to hell.
Luck doesn’t raise your average 50 points.
except when it does.
To quote from Bull Durham:
“Know what the difference between hitting .250 and .300 is? It’s 25 hits. 25 hits in 500 at bats is 50 points, okay? There’s 6 months in a season, that’s about 25 weeks. That means if you get just one extra flare a week – just one – a gorp… you get a groundball, you get a groundball with eyes… you get a dying quail, just one more dying quail a week… and you’re in Yankee Stadium.”
thank you for this
Nice quote there.
When your BABIP goes up 66 points from your career average, luck certainly plays a factor in a high batting average.
1. It pisses me off when players hit 50 points over their career average in their contract year. If he is capable of hitting .340, why isn’t he hitting .300 on a consistent basis?
seriously?
Really interesting article by Jayson Stark about arbitration:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3834458
Ya read that earlier. Good stuff.
Seriously, If I was Cash, Hank, or Hal and he requested playing it would really tick me off.
1) He was a main reason we were not in the playoffs last year. He was our main offense in 2007 and ended up having to replace him with Molina and Moeler after the huge contract he signed…..come on.
2) He is recovering from a major surgery and we need him back healthy. We meaning the Yanks, not Puerto Rico.
3) I would remind him that if he’d been a free agent this year he would have gotten no where near the contract we gave him last year. I think even bringing up Varitek’s name should be enough…..
4) He has an entire new pitching staff to get to know…
I love ya Jorge, but your not leaving Tampa.
Seriously, If I was Cash, Hank, or Hal and he requested playing it would really tick me off.
why?
he asks, they say no.
if he doesn’t accept that, THEN i would get ticked off. but i don’t see why i would be upset that he asked to play in an event that is SUPPOSED to be supported by MLB.
also, is there an actual quote from, i don’t know, JORGE POSADA, in any of these articles? no?
so then why are people getting mad at him?
if he doesn’t accept that,
He has a choice?
I thought the agreement between MLB and WBC said that MLB teams could block players who ended the prior year on the DL from playing. So I thought if Cash/Hank/Hal said no, that was it.
right, and for all we know, he asked, they said “no” and he was perfectly content with that answer.
i don’t know why we are turning this into a character assassination on Jorge Posada.
in general, MLB wants star players (and Jorge qualifies) to participate in this event.
he *MAYBE* asked if he could DH for the team that represents where he was born.
the Yankees *MAYBE* said no (since we don’t know if he formally asked).
people are acting like Jorge has made a stink about it.
I’m not making a stink about it. I was genuinely under the impression that the team had the final say on players who ended the prior season on the DL.
Your post (if he doesn’t accept that) made it sound, at least to me, that that wasn’t necessarily the case.
But in any case, do any of the “reports” definitively state that 1) Jorge asked the Yankees management for permission to play for PR and 2) what the Yankees management’s response was?
Ya, you just stink at this.
I’m not making a stink about it.
sorry, wasn’t trying to imply YOU were. but others have been ripping Jorge in this thread.
yes, i believe the team has the final say.
none of the reports say that Jorge asked for permission. they just have some quoted from his father saying he wanted to play, and then Cashman saying that it’s just not feasible that he would be ready in time to play.
over/under how many guys in the starting rotation prefer molina this season?
4, including replacements.
I’ll take the over, Alex.
Depends if Pettite is back. Pettite liked Jorge over Molina.
Under.
Definitley CC and Burnett. Joba likes Posada and Wang is a toss up.
I’ll go with three.
Unfortunately for Molina, there’s another important aspeect of baseball: hitting. Whether they realize it or not, pitchers are better off with Posada in the game (assuming he’s healthy and at his expected level of production of course) because of his bat.
Agreed.
In a perfect world, Jorge bats and Molina catches!
That would be like the perfect catcher ever!
In a perfect world, Jorge bats and Molina catches!
That
would be like the perfect catcher ever!is Matt Wieters.Fixed.
touche.
In a perfect world, Jorge bats and Molina catches!
That would be
like the perfect catcher ever! is Matt Wietersis Joe Mauer.Actually… That kind of thinking really gets under my skin. How the F could anyone prefer to have Jose Molina start at catcher over Jorge Posada (even if you’re the starting pitcher)? Granted, Molina is a good defensive catcher… But I’d like to ask those pitchers if, if they were a GM or even a manager, they would actually take Jose Molina over Jorge Posada for their team. If they answered in the negative and still preferred to pitch to Molina over Posada, I’d have them lobotomized.
Yeah. You know what’s even better for a pitcher than having a guy behind the plate who can throw out baserunners?
Having a four-run lead.
Yeah!
“You’re worried about me not being able to throw out base runners? Well how about you keeping those runners off base in the first place? Then you won’t have to worry about me not being able to throw out the runners that you didn’t allow to reach! Bitch!”