The faulty A-Rod/Jeter comparison

A-Rod's injury on Cashman, Yanks
Checking in on the Rule Vers

It’s de rigeur for anyone covering the Yankees to write about how different Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez are. One is the Yankee Captain. He knows winning. He has intangibles (and a, um, $189 million contract). The other is a paid mercenary who pads his stats and just wants to be the center of attention. He hurts the team and is a pox on New York.

One of those players has his contract coming up for renewal at the end of next year, and while the Yanks probably wish they could dump Alex Rodriguez in 22 months, it is Derek and his contract who will be at the eye of that storm. That this decision is still two years away isn’t impacting anyone from writing about, and the latest reporter to opine on the situation is Ian O’Connor. Let’s see what he had to say:

This franchise player can’t be trusted with the franchise. It has nothing to do with a hip that could bench A-Rod until who knows when, and everything to do with a lack of leadership skills and common sense that would allow him to use steroids, to tell all sorts of tall tales about his drug use and to wish out loud that Reyes played for the Yanks.

Just another circle of reasons why the Yankees should extend the contract of A-Rod’s most conspicuous ex-friend, Jeter, whose deal will expire at the close of next season. They need to keep Jeter beyond 2010, if only to serve as an A-Rod deodorant…

Jeter should be anywhere from 65 to 100 hits shy of 3,000 at the end of his current deal. The Yankees can’t possibly finance A-Rod’s hollow home-run derby while denying the face of their last dynasty — and the face of all drug-free players — his chance to become the first man in franchise history to clear 3,000 hits.

The captain will be 37 in the summer of 2011, the first season of a potential extension. He will need to rely on his intangible grace more than ever as his physical skills decline.

But if any golden oldie is worth the gamble, Jeter’s the one. The Yanks gave him $189 million for leading them to the four championships. They should offer him another $45 million over two years for helping them build the new palace across the street in the Bronx.

O’Connor’s justification for an inexplicable raise is that it would be his last contract no matter what. The Yankees would be giving Jeter a gracious send-off by overpaying one of the richest athletes in New York. Brilliant!

If this is the type of argument writers are going to make until and unless the Yankees lock up Jeter through the end of his career, I dread the next two years. When the time comes, the Yankees will have to evaluate their commitment to Jeter not through some nostalgic lens of a World Series last won in 2000 but rather through one that judges what Derek can do for the Yanks in 2011 and beyond.

There will be a spot on the team for the Captain if he is willing to take it. He’ll be 37, and he won’t be a viable short stop. He also won’t earn $20 or $22.5 million a year. Intangibles aren’t worth the farm, and those covering the Yanks shouldn’t sound so naive about Derek Jeter.

A-Rod's injury on Cashman, Yanks
Checking in on the Rule Vers
  • jsbrendog

    is it even remotely possible to convince jeter to do a wakefield like deal where there’s something like a mutual option year to year?

    pay him a low base and then outrageous incentives when he htis 3000 hits and other landmarks?

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      No.

      • jsbrendog

        not even a tiny bit?

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          is it even remotely possible to convince jeter to do a wakefield like deal where there’s something like a mutual option year to year?

          Unless you’re talking about a string of successive one year contracts at 30M each year, then no, jsb, that is not even remotely possible. Not at all. Not even a tiny bit.

          pay him a low base and then outrageous incentives when he htis 3000 hits and other landmarks?

          No, that is not even remotely possible. Not remotely. Not even a tiny bit.

  • http://theyankeeuniverse.com Moshe Mandel

    I would offer him 3 years, 42-45 million. According to Fangraphs, Jeter was worth 16.6 M last season, likely his worst. I’m not saying he would earn every cent on the field, but he does bring the added value of being the most marketable player in the game. You can dismiss it, but the intangible, if you want to call it that, of Jeter being viewed as “baseball’s captain” is important as well. He is the face of the sport now that half the players have been dismissed as roiders, and I am sure the Yankees value that, and they should. Anything to promote the Yankees brand of class and grace is a good thing. I think baseball-wise, he would come close to earning the deal, and the other stuff pushes him over the top.

    • A.D.

      I agree with this, I think something in the 15-18 mil per year is what happens. If its 18M its not that far off his AAV in his prime, so he doesn’t take a major par cut, and with the time value of money makes less.

      If you’re going to give A-Rod extra money for marketing bonuses that are now pretty hollow, you gotta give Jeter the extra dough for the marketing he will continue to bring to the Yankees.

      • Mike Pop

        I really hope the Yankees don’t give him that kind of money. Too much, I would be okay with a 10-12 a year deal over 2 but 15-18 is too much. I’d rather let him walk if he was against signing a 12 mill a year deal.

        J.J. Hardy might be available as we have discussed on here time and time again, I believe Reyes will be if he doesn’t get extended. Also maybe even a trade for Hanley, if those young pitchers show promise and not turn out to be B-U-S-T-S which we all know might be impossible, I could see the Yanks getting in on him.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          I agree with everything all of you said. I just don’t think Jeter agrees to a paycut.

          I know Andy did. But Andy’s not Jeter, and we all know it. Jeter has TREMENDOUS leverage here. More leverage than just about any player has ever had in any free agent negotiation.

          O’Connor’s 2/45 sounds right to me. We all know it’s overpaying him for past performance. But it’s probably going to happen, so we may as well start getting used to it.

          Jeter is going to sign an extension, and he is going to be wildly overpaid in that extension.

          • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

            Think he’d go for 2/35?

            • Mike Pop

              I don’t see him getting more than that from anyone else. Maybe more years, but not more money.

              • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

                Watch, Boston will offer him a 3 year deal, just to fuck w/the Yankees.

                • Mike Pop

                  3 years and 60 mill just to make the Yankees overpay.

                • usty

                  And Jeter would risk singlehandedly ruining his entire rep with the Yankees and their fans for $ from Boston? I’d think he’d take a paycut to preserve his mystique and aura before ever seriously considering Boston. (And if they offered him that deal, I’d drive him there…40 yr. old Jete’s is not going to be a hell of a force on the baseball field)

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              Think he’d go for 2/35?

              No.

        • A.D.

          Yeah it is too much, but that’s pretty much a given, in reality the Yanks just need to worry about minimizing how much they overpay… 10-12m a year probably isn’t going to happen.

    • Chris C.

      “Jeter was worth 16.6 M last season, likely his worst.”

      How could you possibly know this??
      Don’t you think the Yankee organizations knows what Jeter is worth? Of course they do. This notion that Jeter, or an other players worth, is some standard figure throughout MLB is the biggest load of crap. Jeter’s worth to the Yankees is about three times what it would be to, say, the Phillies, or the Braves. In fact, I would bet every asset I have that Jeter’s worth to the Yankees, among the fan base, merchandising, marketing, and talent level all combined exeeds 20 million per year. And regardless of his diminishing skills, his entering the 3000 hits plateau certainly doesn’t hurt.

      If you don’t want to sign Jeter because you don’t think he should start or he shouldn’t take a roster spot, that’s one thing. But to insinuate that he’s only worth about 15 mill to the Yankees per year is complete and utter bullshit.

      People like to project worth in baseball terms, and tie it directly to talent. But that’s not the real world.
      Jeter has spent 13 years building up his worth to the point where it will ALWAYS exeed his talent in real dollar income.
      And if you’re the Yankees, THAT’S what you look at.

      So if you want Jeter back, don’t worry about what the YAnkees spend to make it happen. I can assure you, he’s earning every dime of it one way or another.

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        How could you possibly know this??

        Analysis.

        Don’t you think the Yankee organizations knows what Jeter is worth? Of course they do. This notion that Jeter, or an other players worth, is some standard figure throughout MLB is the biggest load of crap.

        But analysis of the difference between a standardized, dispassionate, statistical analysis of what a player is worth and what he is actually being paid is a useful management tool, wouldn’t you say? How is more information ever a bad thing?

        Jeter’s worth to the Yankees is about three times what it would be to, say, the Phillies, or the Braves.

        Based on what, exactly? I’d argue that the Phillies and Braves could easily value Jeter as a 30M per year player, because he’d be a massive draw for casual fans. He could revitalize the Braves flagging brand and make them America’s team again, couldn’t he? If you’re saying that Jeter’s marketing pluses means that he’s always going to be statistically undervalued, you may have a point, but those marketing bonuses are not necessarily unique to the Yankees.

        In fact, I would bet every asset I have that Jeter’s worth to the Yankees, among the fan base, merchandising, marketing, and talent level all combined exeeds 20 million per year. And regardless of his diminishing skills, his entering the 3000 hits plateau certainly doesn’t hurt.

        Again, statistical production worth and economic return on investment are not the same thing. The fact that he brings in more than 20M in revenue to the Yankees doesn’t mean that his statistical on-field worth can’t possibly be 15M or lower. It can.

        If you don’t want to sign Jeter because you don’t think he should start or he shouldn’t take a roster spot, that’s one thing. But to insinuate that he’s only worth about 15 mill to the Yankees per year is complete and utter bullshit.

        Not if his ON-FIELD contributions are only worth 15M. I agree with you that Jeter is “worth” more to the Yankees than 15M, but that doesn’t mean that his statistical on-field contributions

        People like to project worth in baseball terms, and tie it directly to talent. But that’s not the real world.

        Analysis was never meant to substitute the real world. It’s meant to elucidate and explain the real world and make it more understandable and quantifiable. Your rant is misguided.

        Jeter has spent 13 years building up his worth to the point where it will ALWAYS exeed his talent in real dollar income.

        And saying that his on-field production is commensurate with what a typical MLB team has, on average, paid 15M for doesn’t negate or disagree with your claim. Saying that Jeter provides a larger ROI than a player of similar production does not mean that the claim that Jeter is overpaid in terms of his production is an incorrect statement.

        Again, you’re conflating two different realms of analysis here. Jeter can be both overpaid and yet undervalued at the same time.

        And if you’re the Yankees, THAT’S what you look at.
        So if you want Jeter back, don’t worry about what the YAnkees spend to make it happen. I can assure you, he’s earning every dime of it one way or another.

        …just not necessarily on the baseball field. Which is all that FanGraphs value analysis has ever claimed to measure.

        • Chris C.

          “Analysis.”

          And you have this analysis?

          “But analysis of the difference between a standardized, dispassionate, statistical analysis of what a player is worth and what he is actually being paid is a useful management tool, wouldn’t you say?”

          It’s flawless. The problem is, you and I don’t know what this is, so how can we project a value?

          “Based on what, exactly? I’d argue that the Phillies and Braves could easily value Jeter as a 30M per year player, because he’d be a massive draw for casual fans.”

          So you’re telling me that Jeter could be a massive draw anywhere? Doesn’t that just strengthen my argument that he’s worth 20 mill or more a year? I happen to disagree with you that he’s worth as much to other clubs over the course of a season though, because the novelty of a diminishing ballplayer in a different uniform won’t last…….but it would if he remained a Yankee.

          “If you’re saying that Jeter’s marketing pluses means that he’s always going to be statistically undervalued, you may have a point, but those marketing bonuses are not necessarily unique to the Yankees.”

          Right…..and that’s why he will merit a deal worth more than his talent dictates. I certainly wasn’t trying to prove that his baseball numbers will merit that scratch, that’s for sure.

          “Not if his ON-FIELD contributions are only worth 15M. I agree with you that Jeter is “worth” more to the Yankees than 15M, but that doesn’t mean that his statistical on-field contributions”

          I never said his “statistical on-field contributions” alone will still exceed 20 mill a year. In fact, I predict they won’t.

          “Saying that Jeter provides a larger ROI than a player of similar production does not mean that the claim that Jeter is overpaid in terms of his production is an incorrect statement.”

          Okay, I agree with you in regards to the poster I responded to. But then I read nonsense like,
          “I really hope the Yankees don’t give him that kind of money. Too much, I would be okay with a 10-12 a year deal over 2 but 15-18 is too much. I’d rather let him walk if he was against signing a 12 mill a year deal.”……..and ti makes me realize that people have no cohesive grasp of the business side of things.
          The fact that the salries of atheletes are made public really makes people look foolish when discussing their worth.

          “…just not necessarily on the baseball field. Which is all that FanGraphs value analysis has ever claimed to measure.”

          Fair enough. Trouble is, people are taking this analysis and using it as hard-core evidence of what the Yankees should pay Derek Jeter. And that is wrong, wrong, wrong.

          • http://theyankeeuniverse.com Moshe Mandel

            I dont think you are disagreeing with me. i said that the stats say he was worth 16 M as purely a baseball player, and that he should still be worth about 12 over each year of a 3 year deal, but that he has more value as the face of the sport, particularly to the Yankees, and should get 14-16. Disagree with that?

            • Chris C.

              No, I agree with your post totally. I shouldn’t have grouped it in with the others who imply that the Yankees would be crazy to offer him anything close to 20 mill per.
              My apologies.

  • JeffG

    Most of this article was useless: “…to serve as an A-Rod deodorant” – while funny and for off the field stuff true, but A-Rod isn’t the one whose play I’m worried about in two years.

  • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

    I fail to see why A-Rod’s status should affect what the Yankees do with Jeter. If they do resign him, I can’t wait to see how relying on “his intangible grace” works for him. Should be a hoot.

    • A.D.

      Well one would figure the case Jeter’s agent is going to make to the Yankees is that if you gave money to A-Rod for marketability, which is now tarnished, you have to give it to my client, who won’t tarnish his marketability to this franchise.

      Obviously the Yanks can tell him to shove it, but figure thats gotta be what Jeter’s agent says.

      • Arman Tamzarian

        How great would it be if Jeter did tarnish his marketability. I mean great in the sense that it would be great to see the media attempt to reconcile all the bullshit they tossed at Arod and let Jeter off the hook.

        • A.D.

          Yeah i mean everyone has really thrown themselves in the Jeter boat, especially at this point….if he goes down, it would be ugly.

          • Mike Pop

            We are going to find it funny when A-Rod misses the playoffs due to his hip and Jeter has a smoking playoffs and the Yanks win the W.S. without A-Rod. I can see it now:

            “Yanks win without A-Fraud, they are a better team without that Cancer!!!”—Tom Verducci

            • http://theyankeeuniverse.com Moshe Mandel

              Or if a limping A-Rod hits the Series winning HR:

              “Jeter inspires A-Rod to stop whining and hit”
              “Was A-Rod Faking Alll Along”
              “How many injections did it take to get that ball out of the park?”

              • Mike Pop

                Ya, but that would be impossible. We all know A-Fraud can’t hit HR’s when the game is on the line.

        • Chris C.

          How great would it be if Jeter did tarnish his marketability.

          Why would that be great?

          “I mean great in the sense that it would be great to see the media attempt to reconcile all the bullshit they tossed at Arod and let Jeter off the hook.”

          How would that be cause for reconcilliation? Up to this point, the media believes that Jeter is a high character guy, and AROD is a cheating, lying idiot.
          And both players have spent their entire careers cultivating these personas, and nothing that’s occured has made them look anything lesee than accurate.

          I mean, AROD lied with just about everything he said regarding the whole steroid issue. That’s the media’s fault? That guy digs his own holes.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Ben K.

            How can you say that A-Rod lied every time unless you have some insider knowledge (which you don’t)? A-Rod lied to Katie Couric and then told the truth to Peter Gammons and everyone else. Nothing he has said since then has been shown to be a lie at all. If you don’t believe him because you’d prefer to spout out your typical ill-informed inanities, so be it. But try not to slander A-Rod while doing it.

            • Chris C.

              “A-Rod lied to Katie Couric and then told the truth to Peter Gammons and everyone else.”

              No he didn’t. Do you really want to get into this?

              If you don’t believe him because you’d prefer to spout out your typical ill-informed inanities, so be it.

              No, I don’t believe him for the same reason I didn’t believe Barry Bonds. And my lack of gullibility was rewarded in that case. Once someone starts using lines like, “I wasn’t honest with Katie because I wasn’t even honest with myself”, then I’m done with it.
              Nobody hires PR firms and Damage-control companies if they intend to show up and lay all their cards on the table.

              • Chris

                I’d like to get into this. I’m curious what A-Rod lied about to Gammons or in his press conference.

                I’m sure you’re going to point to the steroids being purchased over the counter. They were actually illegal, but if you walked into a pharmacy you could buy it right from the pharmacist without a prescription. To me, that would qualify as ‘over the counter’ even if it turns out that the pharmacist (and purchaser) was breaking the law.

                • Nady Nation

                  How about the fact that A-Rod said to Gammons that his wake-up call when he stopped using steroids was his neck injury in spring training of 2003, yet he then admitted in his press conference that he took Boli for 6 months DURING the 2003 season? I still can’t get over how not one reporter has mentioned that, especially in a town that would do anything to crucify A-Rod. I’m not trying to get on A-Rod, because I’m so sick of this situation already. But the fact is, we have no idea if he’s telling the truth, and I don’t think people who choose not to believe him should be taken to task for doing so.

                • Chris

                  “I don’t think people who choose not to believe him should be taken to task for doing so.”

                  But it’s ok to take people to task if they do believe him?

                  As for that specific reference, he admitted during the Gammons interview that he took steroids during the 2003 season, so it’s not like he was covering it up. I can easily see A-Rod being conflicted about this, and the injury being part of his impetus to stop, even if he didn’t stop immediately. Either way, there is nothing inconsistent (he admitted the period of steroid to Gammons and in the press conference) or untrue, just maybe a little odd.

                • Nady Nation

                  “But it’s ok to take people to task if they do believe him?”

                  No, it’s not OK for anyone to be taken to task really. That was my point – if you want to believe him fine, if not, that’s fine too. We have no way of knowing if he’s telling the truth. I don’t think there should be such extremes in either believing or not trusting A-Rod’s words, given that we have no idea whatsoever if he’s truly being honest.

                  “As for that specific reference, he admitted during the Gammons interview that he took steroids during the 2003 season, so it’s not like he was covering it up. I can easily see A-Rod being conflicted about this, and the injury being part of his impetus to stop, even if he didn’t stop immediately. Either way, there is nothing inconsistent (he admitted the period of steroid to Gammons and in the press conference) or untrue, just maybe a little odd.”

                  Just because he wasn’t “covering it up” doesn’t mean he was being truthful. We’ll just agree to disagree here. I find it hard to believe that if A-Rod really was concerned about the potential health issues the steroid injections could cause, he would continue to take them for an entire season after that wake up call. Again, I think it is fair to see both sides, but nothing should be believed with such certainty.

                • Nady Nation

                  “But it’s ok to take people to task if they do believe him?”

                  No, it’s not OK for anyone to be taken to task really. That was my point – if you want to believe him fine, if not, that’s fine too. We have no way of knowing if he’s telling the truth. I don’t think there should be such extremes in either believing or not trusting A-Rod’s words, given that we have no idea whatsoever if he’s truly being honest.

                  “As for that specific reference, he admitted during the Gammons interview that he took steroids during the 2003 season, so it’s not like he was covering it up. I can easily see A-Rod being conflicted about this, and the injury being part of his impetus to stop, even if he didn’t stop immediately. Either way, there is nothing inconsistent (he admitted the period of steroid to Gammons and in the press conference) or untrue, just maybe a little odd.”

                  Just because he wasn’t “covering it up” doesn’t mean he was being truthful. We’ll just agree to disagree here. I find it hard to believe that if A-Rod really was concerned about the potential health issues the steroid injections could cause, he would continue to take them for an entire season after that wake up call. Again, I think it is fair to see both sides, but nothing should be believed with such certainty.

              • Chris C.

                “I’m sure you’re going to point to the steroids being purchased over the counter.”

                Well, since you broght it up, okay.

                “They were actually illegal, but if you walked into a pharmacy you could buy it right from the pharmacist without a prescription.”

                First of all, one of the things AROD tested positive for was something that was NEVER sold over a counter in any country. So that was a lie.
                And if you think for one second that AROD himself is walking into Pharmacies and putchasing this stuff, instead of having his flacks make runs for him, you’re kidding yourself!
                Then he drags GNC into it. The shit he took was NEVER sold at GNC, so not only is that a lie, but it is damn close to slander too!

      • Chris C.

        “Well one would figure the case Jeter’s agent is going to make to the Yankees is that if you gave money to A-Rod for marketability, which is now tarnished, you have to give it to my client, who won’t tarnish his marketability to this franchise.”

        Right. And if his agent didn’t say this, he should be fired immidiately. How many endorsements does AROD get compared to Jeter? Jeter’s marketability was miles ahead of AROD’s even before the roid incident. And that’s really saying something, considering the kind of player AROD is!

        “Obviously the Yanks can tell him to shove it”

        The Yankees have made an absolute windfall from Derek Jeter over the past number of years. They are not going to tell a guy who knows what he’s talking about to “shove it”.
        Correction: Hank Steinbrenner may tell him to “shove it”, because that guy is liable to say any crazy thing at any crazy time.

  • JobaWockeeZ

    Is it still possible to move Jeter to an OF position?

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Yes.

      • JobaWockeeZ

        Now would he be willing?

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          Probably depends on a host of factors, such as:
          – How well he produces in 2009 and 2010
          – What the team’s internal and external options look like at SS and the OF
          – How much we’re willing to pay him
          – How successful the team has been and figures to be going forward
          – How the move would be portrayed in the media (as in, is he moving because he’s a washed up has been, or is he moving because he’s a selfless super-leader who only cares about winning)

          Guys like B.J. Upton and Robin Yount should be the focus of the unofficial PR campaign mounted by enlightened Yankee fans. They’re shortstops who moved to the OF partially because their abilities at SS were diminished, but primarily because they’re great athletes who could, and did, excel at the also physically demanding outfield position.

          I think if we ask Jeter to be a DH or a 1B, he may be insulted by that. If we couch it in the manner of Robin Yount, saying we need Jeter to move to LF to fill a void there and win a Gold Glove there and be an MVP candidate there, he may be more amenable to that.

          That’s how I’d spin it if I was Cashmoney.

          • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

            Are you sure you’re not in PR already or something?

            Seriously, though, that’s all real good stuff. I hope Jeter gets off his SS based ego trip and moves somewhere else. I wouldn’t mind JJ Hardy manning SS one bit. The thing about moving Jeter to LF is what if Damon is brought back for more than one year? He probably couldn’t DH because Posada will most likely need that spot, he can’t play first because Teixeira will be there. He can’t play right because Swisher will be there. Guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

            • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              Give Jeter ’09 and ’10 at SS. After this season, sign Damon to a one-year extension (provided he remains productive this year). Then, after the 2010 season, let Damon walk and move the Cap’n to LF.

              2011:
              C-Austin Romine
              1B-Tex
              2B-Cano
              3B-ARod
              SS-Hardy/Hanley/Reyes/Lassiter/Angelini/Melvin Croussett
              LF-Jeter
              CF-AJax
              RF-Swisher (in his walk year, could easily be someone else)
              DH-Jesus Monteroplay

              • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

                And Jorge is a bench player at this point, I’m assuming? Or will he retire before his contract is totally up? He’s signed through 2011 so…

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  Whoops.

                  Jorge, Tex, and Jesus Monteroplay all share the AB’s at first and DH.

                • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

                  How long before people acutally think his name is “Monteroplay?”

                • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  How long before people acutally think his name is “Monteroplay?”

                  Heh. Speaking of which, let me revise:

                  2011:
                  C- Romine
                  1B-Tex
                  2B-Cano
                  3B-ARod Nails Krzyzewski
                  SS-Hardy/Hanley/Reyes/Lassiter/Angelini/Melvin Croussett
                  LF-Jeter
                  CF-AJax
                  RF-Swisher (in his walk year, could easily be someone else)
                  DH-Posada / Monteroplay

            • Chris C.

              Seriously, though, that’s all real good stuff. I hope Jeter gets off his SS based ego trip and moves somewhere else.

              I seriously cannot believe how many “supposed” Yankee fans have taken it upon themselves to find someting wrong with Derek Jeter, when the guy does nothing but go out there and play the game. I really can’t believe it. It seems everytime AROD does something, Jeter gets the heat too.

              SS based Ego trip? Can you confirm this with backup by something Jeter may have said? Because I certainly don’t know where you’re getting this from. Neither do you. For the record, Jeter has NEVER been asked to move from the SS position. According to the Yankees, NEVER been asked.

              • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Here’s my retort:

                In the winter of 2003-2004, we added ARod. ARod and Jeter both played shortstop. Jeter played shortstop MUCH, MUCH WORSE than ARod did.

                Why did ARod move to third? Why not Jeter? Do you think it’s because Jeter has an “ego-trip about being the Yankees shortstop”? If a team has two players who both play the same position, why would they move the superior of the two to a position of lesser importance and keep the inferior of the two in a position of greater importance? How can that be construed as anything other than appeasing the personal wishes of the inferior (but longer tenured) player?

                So sure, the Yankees never “asked” Jeter to move. Because he likely conveyed to them, in one way or another, that he’d prefer to not be asked.

                It’s like George Bush and pre-war intelligence: they didn’t tell him the stuff he didn’t want to hear, and he didn’t ask the questions he didn’t want to know the answers to. Saying Jeter was never “asked” to move off of SS is a bit disingenuous.

                • Chris C.

                  “Why did ARod move to third?”

                  Because the Yankees hole at third, and they were not going to tell their All-Star SS to move there. So they told Texas they’d make the trade, if AROd would move to third.
                  That does not make Jeter a selfish guy.
                  And oh yeah, he hated the fucker too, and for a rock-solid excellent reason!
                  You’re really asking alot for a guy to make amends for someone he can’t stand. In the real world, not too many people would do that in any profession. Doesn’t make them selfish. It’s not as if Derek Jeter didn’t have any nice accomplishments up to that point as SS for the New York Yankees.

                  “Saying Jeter was never “asked” to move off of SS is a bit disingenuous.”

                  It’s not disingenuous at all. The guy was never asked to move from SS. What you’re implying is that he should have volenteered. Well, he didn’t.

                  You make it sound like the Yankees went out and got AROD, then said, “okay, which of you two guys wants to move to third?” Then AROD stepped forward.

                • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

                  So because he and Rodriguez don’t get along like they once did, it’s okay for Jeter to do something that hurts the team? That makes absolutely no sense. At all.

              • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

                cite>I seriously cannot believe how many “supposed” Yankee fans have taken it upon themselves to find someting wrong with Derek Jeter, when the guy does nothing but go out there and play the game.

                So because I have the gall to say something bad about the Captain’s poor fielding–something that is more or less accepted in today’s baseball landscape–my fan-ness is called into question? Please. I’m sure if the internet (as it exists today) was around in the ’40s and ’50’s, people would’ve said the same sort of stuff about Joe D and Mickey. Derek Jeter is probably the best offensive SS the Yankees have ever had (w/o looking anything up to back this up) and is one of the ten best offensive shortstops in history. His fielding, however, is incredibly suspect and has undoubtedly hurt the Yankees to a considerable degree. Just because he goes out and “play the game” doesn’t mean he’s doing it well. At the plate, the Captain leaves very little to be desired from a shortstop. In the field, it’s a totally different story. This isn’t a personal shot at Jeter. He is one of the reasons I’m a huge fan of baseball. However, unlike a large amount of Yankee fans, I can separate my love for a player and analysis. Objectively, Derek Jeter is a great offensive shortstop, but an awful defensive one.

                Can you confirm this with backup by something Jeter may have said?

                The fact that he didn’t move off of the position when a far superior player at the position was added to the team.

  • ColoYank

    I’d just like to echo Ben’s concern about the approach the reporter took. These people have a built-in urge to “one-up” the competition in inciting fans – they think it sells papers or web hits, when all it does is influence the easily-influenced and piss off the rest of us.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Agreed.

      There are many smart reasons for the Yankees to resign Derek Jeter. Ian O’Connor listed about 5 or 6. He named one of the good ones (3,000 hits) and 4 or 5 of the dumb ones.

      Because he didn’t want to take the time to think things through clearly.

      • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

        Because he didn’t want to take the time to think things through clearly is a sports-writer.

        Yup.

        • usty

          ietc

  • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

    I think I just threw up in a mouth a little bit…

  • I Remember Celerino Sanchez

    Funny, while I actually agree with the point of view Ben makes fun of in the first paragraph (I am not a fan of A Rod), I also think O’Connor’s piece is so stupid, it’s not worthy to line the litter box of my pet rabbit (he is selective on the quality of journalism he’ll crap on).

    I think Jeter’s contributions do go beyond his numbers, BUT there have to be numbers in the first place to make him valuable. As Ben notes, he’ll be 37 and may not be able to be an everyday short stop. Giving Jeter a big deal at that point wouldn’t help alleviate the bad deal the Yanks made with A Rod in 2007, it would compound it. Instead of having one bad long-term deal, they’d have two.

    Jeter is going to have to take a lot less if he wants to stay after this contract is over. At least I hope that’s the way it goes down. I’m counting on both Jeter and the Yanks playing things right.

    • usty

      Wait wait wait…you have a pet rabbit?

      • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Oh, Celerino, I’m sorry, I ate your chocolate covered rabbit.

        • Mike Pop

          Fantastic!

    • Chris C.

      “Jeter is going to have to take a lot less if he wants to stay after this contract is over.”

      You think so, ehh? Just wait and see.
      Remember, this is the same organization that offered AROD ZERO once he opted out of his contract………then ended up giving him a RAISE!

      In the 11th hour, they know what a guy’s worth, believe me.

    • Chris C.

      “Jeter is going to have to take a lot less if he wants to stay after this contract is over. At least I hope that’s the way it goes down.”

      Why do you care what Jeter gets paid, if the Yankees are sure they’ll get the return on the investment? How does that effect you? If he still merits being in the line-up, then really dude, what do you care what he makes?

      Stop acting like your ticket price will be lower if Jeter is gone.

  • jeremy

    There is no way that there will be a market for Jeter in the 20-22.5 million dollar range when his contract is up. At best, on the market intangibles and all, Jeter’s value to any team that is not the Yankees, peaks at about 15 mil. per, actually probably closer to 12 mil. per. I mean, all sentimentality aside, we’re talking about a player already on the decline, whose productivity is only going to get worse (and was never worth 18-22 mil per year to begin with) and will no longer patrol a premium defensive position (which as has been documented he does very poorly at present). If his name wasn’t Derek Jeter his true value in free agency would drop from the number I posted above to more like 8 mil/yr. Are the Yanks really going to overpay by anywhere between 7 and 14 million a year just to stave off a PR disaster?

    Oh and Jeter didn’t “lead” the late 90’s Yankees to 4 titles, he was an integral part of a very disciplined and talented team. David Cone was clearly the vocal, and clubhouse leaer of that team. Sometimes the media would have you believe no one else played for the Yanks during that time. This rewriting of history to further enhance Jeter’s legacy is ridiculous. Pretty soon Jeter will have broken Whitey Ford’s record for consecutive scoreless innings in a World Series.

    • Sweet Dick Willie

      I think it is foolish to speculate now what the financial market for a 37 year old SS (?) will be in two years.

      I’m fairly certain that 2 years ago, there is no way in hell Bobby Abreu envisioned signing a one year contract for $5 mil.

      For all we know, maybe the financial landscape in two years is such that Jeter gladly takes a 2 year deal at $5 mil. Or $3 mil. Or 1 mil.

      So yeah, during a slow time of ST we can pontificate about what the Yankees should be willing to offer Jeter two years from now, but beyond avoiding work, it doesn’t really accomplish much.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      It’s a little funny that we can accept (or are somewhat comfortable with) the idea that it’s okay for Hideki Matsui to be overpaid and produce at a level not commensurate with his salary, because Matsui has tremendous marketing and branding benefit to the Yankees, but we’re prepared to draw a line in the sand with Jeter and tell him to kick rocks if he doesn’t take a paycut.

      Derek Jeter currently has a huge salary and is probably overpaid, but he still makes the Yankees more money than he costs them. If we overpay Derek Jeter and give him 22.5M for 2011 and 2012, and he only produces at slightly above average levels and not superstar levels, he still probably makes the Yankees more money than he costs them.

      Here’s how I’d handle it: I’d give Jeter the O’Connor proposal (2yr/45M) with the caveat that Jeter end his reluctance to move off of shortstop. Have the team tell him that we love you and want you to stay and want to reward you for everything you’ve done to help resurrect the Yankee global brand by increasing your pay and keeping you in the starting lineup, but we need to move you to leftfield, because there are other, younger shortstop options that will come available soon, guys like Jose Reyes and Hanley Ramirez and J.J.Hardy, and we need the positional flexibility to move you to the outfield.

      • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

        I’m on board with this.

      • jeremy

        Don’t really feel it’s okay to overpay for Matsui either. But the Yankees overpay for everyone, and in particular their home grown long-time “dynasty” brotherhood, so of course they will overpay for Jeter. The evidence that most Yankee fans are dissatisfied with Matsui’s deal is how many times he is mentioned in trade talks, and a desire to just “unload” him. And at the same time the unwillingness, and obvious lack of interest for any team to take him.

        The facts are money is no object for the Yankees, especially now with the new ballpark, and so it is easy for them to forgo sound business practice in order to appease the fans, their players (Petitte this year being the obvious exception), and maintain the status of their brand. Perhaps Jeter will be the last of this practice, and the Yanks can once again be sensible when it comes to aging players rather than trying to be loyal. I think the misconception is that this is a Derek Jeter problem, and its not, its orginizational, and probably more a circumstance of what the Yankees are, but in many ways its a handicap.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          I think the fact that Hideki Matsui walks like Frankenstein’s monster is probably the bigger reason why we were willing and eager to unload him. If Hideki were healthy and a lock to play in 150 games this season, I think people would be a lot more bullish on his 2009 walk year.

      • Chris C.

        “Derek Jeter currently has a huge salary and is probably overpaid, but he still makes the Yankees more money than he costs them.”

        This makes no sense. You say he is probably overpaid, then describe a guy who is either paid correctly, or even underpaid.

        “If we overpay Derek Jeter and give him 22.5M for 2011 and 2012, and he only produces at slightly above average levels and not superstar levels, he still probably makes the Yankees more money than he costs them.”

        And that would make him “underproductive” from a baseball standpoint. Don’t confuse that with being “overpaid”.
        Company’s take losses on people who they overpay. That is not the case with Derek Jeter.

  • Rich

    Apart from Jeter’s below average defense, which makes his continuing ability to play SS a non-starter, his OPS+ was 102 last season. Only in the fact-free, baseball-challenged world that mediots like Ian O’Connor inhabit does that type of mediocre production merit a raise, let alone a contract extension at the current terms.

    It’s as if O’Connor is either amnesic about Bernie Williams’s final seasons with the Yankees, when his skills were in a precipitous decline, or he has some bizarre psychological disorder that involves getting off on watching declining players embarrassing themselves in the field the way Willie Mays at the end of his career.

    If Jeter’s offense returns to a 120ish OPS+ level over the next two years, he can move to the OF and receive a two year extension at reduced financial terms. If not, it’s thanks for the memories.

    • http://theyankeeuniverse.com Moshe Mandel

      Fangraphs had him at 16.6M of value last season. I think he can give you about 12M worth of production for another 3-5 years, and would give him 14-16 due to his being the most marketable player out there and really, the face of baseball at this point.

  • WhizzoTheWize

    How dumb does one have to be to become a NY sports writer?

    Whizzo misses the time when all people had brains.

    • Mike Pop

      Mike Pop agrees.

  • MJ

    I don’t understand why there is all this negativity against Alex. Always announcing to the world that he’s an egomaniac who loves to be a drama queen of the league and always wants the attention on him.

    He’s good at baseball and never says or does anything wrong. I think the Jose Reyes comments were taken out of context. I say all the time I would like Deron Williams on the Lakers, but that doesn’t necessarily mean out with Derek Fisher. Just means you respect the guys talent and what he could bring to a team.

    Media is absolutely insane and makes people nation-wide targets. Just because they say so, its true.

    Media hated him before the Steroids/Divorce and they’ll hate him long after. I guess this is what you get when you sign with New York. But, it’s definately annoying.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      I think the Jose Reyes comments were taken out of context.

      I think saying that his comments were “taken out of context” is insulting to the notion of context itself. His comments weren’t simply “taken out of context”, superfluous and asinine context was intentionally ADDED to his comments to make them sound much worse than they were. The former is bad, the latter is much, much worse. They’re not leaving out important, contextualizing details, they’re creating false details from thin air that wholly invert the context rather than shade or alter the context.

      If I say that “Xavier Nady needs to hit righties better, but he’s improving and still solid against righties” and the media says “Tommie says Xavier Nady can’t hit righties well”, that’s taking my comments “out of context.”

      If the media says “Tommie said Xavier Nady can’t hit righties well and needs to be replaced”, that’s ADDING FALSE CONTEXT. Much more insidious and less forgivable.

      • Sweet Dick Willie

        If I say that “Xavier Nady needs to hit righties better, but he’s improving and still solid against righties” and the media says “Tommie says Xavier Nady can’t hit righties well”, that’s taking my comments “out of context.

        Technically, that is misquoting you, as you never said (nor even implied, really) that Nady can’t hit righties well; all you said was he needs to improve.

        If they quote you as “he’s (Nady) … solid against righties”, that would be an example of taking your comments out of context, because you actually uttered those words in that sequence, just not in that context.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          That’s true. And, clearly, it’s a shot at Jeter and Damon.

          • Chris C.

            Yeah, I know he wasn’t dissing them, but it just didn’t come out right. But it’s just further evidence that AROD just doesn’t know how to properly comunicate his thoughts without sticking his foot in his mouth.

            David Wright paid Jeter compliments that were every bit as flattering, but you just knew Wright would know when to end it.

            Arod just seems to go one sentence too long when you stick a mike in front of him.

    • Chris C.

      I don’t understand why there is all this negativity against Alex. Always announcing to the world that he’s an egomaniac who loves to be a drama queen of the league and always wants the attention on him.

      You DON’T?
      Wow……I wonder what it will take then.

      “He’s good at baseball and never says or does anything wrong.”

      Yeah, sure. Diminishing a guy’s worth in GQ magazine, WHILE THAT GUY IS NEGOTIATING A CONTRACT doesn’t make him a dick. No, not much.
      The players union must hate that they have to lean on this guy to set the market, because he certainly doesn’t give a damn about any other player making money!

  • Whitey14

    “Arod Deodorant” that’s classic…

  • Tim

    I know it wouldn’t happen and he’s never said anything that would lead one to believe he would want to, but imagine if the Yanks miss the playoffs in the last season of this current contract and Jeter becomes… player coach. It’s outlandish and silly but I kinda miss the idea of the coach taking the field. Thoughts?

    • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

      No. I dread the day when there’s going to be a call for DJ to manage the Yankees.

      • Chris C.

        “No. I dread the day when there’s going to be a call for DJ to manage the Yankees.”

        We may end up regretting the day they asked Girardi to be one.

        • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

          Meh, I don’t think that will come true. Last year, he came through big time in terms of the bullpen management and if he can trot out a more stable lineup and handle the media just a smidge better, he’d be great.

          It’s well documented that Jeter doesn’t pay attention to baseball outside of the games he plays. Something tells me he wouldn’t really be qualified to manage the team.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      It’s outlandish and silly but I kinda miss the idea of the coach taking the field. Thoughts?

      I think your thoughts are outlandish and silly.

      • Chris C.

        LMAO.
        And I miss the days when they would drop their gloves on the field and run into the dugout to bat.
        Gosh, those were the days.

  • Expired Milk

    Give Jeter a one year deal for 20m for his 3000th hit or let him walk.

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Jeter’s currently at 2,535. Say that, over the next two seasons, he averages 190 hits (far from impossible for him.) That puts him at 2,915 going into the 2011 season.

      I think Jeter wants two more years, and not just one. Here’s why: 3,000 hits is one of his goals, but I think he’s got another in mind, and no, it’s not Pete Rose. Here’s the list of the top hitters of all time. I think you’ll see it…

      1 Pete Rose 4,256
      2 Ty Cobb 4,189
      3 Hank Aaron 3,771
      4 Stan Musial 3,630
      5 Tris Speaker 3,514
      6 Carl Yastrzemski 3,419
      7 Cap Anson 3,418
      8 Honus Wagner 3,415
      9 Paul Molitor 3,319
      10 Eddie Collins 3,315
      11 Willie Mays 3,283
      12 Eddie Murray 3,255
      13 Nap Lajoie 3,242
      14 Cal Ripken, Jr. 3,184
      15 George Brett 3,154

      It should take a healthy Derek Jeter three seasons to become the first Yankee ever with 3,000 hits. It probably takes him four to pass his idol, Cal “I’m an ironman and the face of the franchise but eventually I moved off of shortstop because I couldn’t hack it anymore” Ripken.

      • Tom Zig

        And if Jeter is still healthy, any chance we keep him around to just compile hits after his 3000th?

        Pete Rose is out of the question but passing Mays wouldn’t be far off from Ripken.

  • Tim

    Ouch. I’m getting hammered for throwing out an admittedly ridiculous scenario just for the fun of “what if…”

    • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Meh, don’t take it personal: lots of people on here throw out admittedly ridiculous scenarios, but they’re dead serious and not just spitballing for fun. You get caught up in the natural reflex we have to bat that ridiculous shit down.

      I did find in interesting, though, that the last two player-managers in baseball were the following:

      Joe Torre and Pete Rose. That’s two interesting names you’d be linking Captain America to there, isn’t it?

      • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt

        I’m going to touch on this very soon in a blog post, but Joe Torre should be in the HOF as a player. He put up basically identical numbers to Jim Rice and played catcher. Whatever. My head’s going to explode come July w/all the Jim Rice love.

        • http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRsmithT1.jpg tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          Whatever. My head’s going to explode come July w/all the Jim Rice love.

          Bernie Williams was the most feared hitter of his era.

          BEEEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUU-
          WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIP!

          • Nady Nation

            You guys have it, I think.

            • Nady Nation

              ….AFTERNOON DELIGHT!

  • Steve S

    I have to say I would have agreed with the sentiment of this article a year ago but after the last six months, I just dont know. As long as they work out a position shift and find a suitable replacement at shortstop, then I don’t really care what they pay him. I mean the Arod contract was always going to be a disaster but we accepted it because he was going to own a prestigious record and that decision wasn’t motivated by the best baseball move, that was a business decision. And now it did blow up in their face sowewhat because The same can be said for Jeter, that decision and the salary that would not be based solely on baseball motives but a business decisions. Remember we dont root for a baseball team anymore- we root for a brand.

    Plus, if they are willing to pay AJ Burnett $16M at age 37, I can live with Jeter getting overpaid from 37-40.

  • http://www.bronxbaseballdaily.com Bronx Baseball Daily

    The Yankees are worth over a billion dollars these days which is nearly double what they were worth back in the day. He’s also become a team icon that they are going to use for year and years.

    He hasn’t gotten paid for his role in either of those. That’s why he deserves more money than typical players.

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