A tale of two Jobas

Montero returns to lineup after last night's injury
Rooting for U.S. Steel

It was the best of Joba, it was the worst of Joba.

For five batters tonight, Joba was as bad as the Yankee bullpen any pitcher can be. He allowed the first five Red Sox to reach base and four them of them came around to score. It seemed like it was going to be another one of those nights against the Red Sox in the Bronx.

But then, something clicked. Aided by a generous outside strike zone with left-handers up, Joba Chamberlain put on a pitching clinic at Yankee Stadium tonight. He became the first Yankee to strike out 12 opponents at home since Mike Mussina did it in 2003, but he was more impressive than that. He retired 17 Red Sox tonight, 12 of them by the good ol’ K. After allowing that fifth first-inning hit, Joba gave up just one more hit over his final 5.2 innings.

After his 108th pitch — a third strike to Jeff Bailey — Joe Girardi came out to get Joba. The Yanks’ youngster was dealing at the time. His first few pitches — the ones the Red Sox hit — clocked in at around 90 miles per hour. As the game progressed, his velocity improved and the bite on his slider grew sharper. He left throwing in the 95/96 range and made an emphatic statement. “I am Joba. Hear me roar.”

Unfortunately for the Yanks, as good as Joba was, those four runs in the first still counted, and the Yanks’ offense couldn’t find a way to catch up. In the third inning, the Bombers gave it the old college try. Jose Molina and Derek Jeter singled, and Johnny Damon hit a three-run home run into right field. The Yanks had closed the gap to one, but Damon’s home run would be the only Yankee hit with runners in scoring position.

Over the next few innings, the Yanks threatened but could not deliver. In the bottom of the sixth, with Nick Swisher on first, Melky Cabrera hit a double that unfortunately bounced off the spring-loaded warning track and into the stands. Had the ball stayed in play, the Yanks would have tied the game. Alas, it was not meant to be. Ramiro Peña struck out, and Jose Molina grounded out to end the threat.

Meanwhile, the bullpen tried to keep things close. Jose Veras and a very effective Phil Coke each recorded two outs. Apparently, though, Coke had reached his 11-pitch ceiling, and in the eighth, Joe Girardi called upon his favorite bullpen arm, Jonathan Albaladejo. Peña made an error at third that led to a pair of unearned runs, and the Yanks’ chances faded.

In the ninth, Mark Melancon made things exciting but for all the wrong reasons. He threw 22 pitches without retiring a batter and just 8 of them were in the strike zone. David Robertson allowed just one of his three inherited runners to score, and the revolving door of the bullpen continued to spin.

With this 7-3 loss, the Yankees dropped back to .500. They have lost their first five match-ups against the Red Sox, and in another era, Joe Girardi would be out of a job. That is, at least, what happened to Yogi when his 1985 Yankees pulled off the same underwhelming feat.

Anyway, Joba gave us something to cheer about. He showed why the B-Jobbers who continue to advocate for his move to the bullpen are wrong, and he was as dominant as a pitcher can be. The rest of the team slogged their way to another cold, rainy loss. They’re 1-3 on the month and will face Tampa Bay tomorrow night in a bid to avoid that dreaded drop below .500.

Montero returns to lineup after last night's injury
Rooting for U.S. Steel
  • Tom Zig

    I guess we can’t play when it rains.

    • Pel

      They played. They didn’t win, but they played.

  • dkidd

    i’m trying very hard not to create a narrative about the new stadium and bad karma

    can it please stop raining?

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

      Oh, I’ve already created one, but it’s a silly, superstitious little narrative involving two lovely ladies named Mystique and Aura.

      I do wish it would stop raining though. I just had to take a quick stroll over to Key Food, and it’s fucking miserable out right now.

      • steve (different one)

        Mystique and Aura passed away in October 2004.

        • thurdonpaul

          mystique and aura are in a coma, they WILL be back

  • kunaldo

    ok, so I’m going to preface the following comment by saying that I in no way want Girardi fired, just disappointed that he’s not the forward-thinking manager i thought he would be…

    so, with Mo having PLENTY of rest, the game hanging in the balance in the 8th, we’re about to lose our 5th in a row to the red sox(and waste a pretty dominating performance by joba, 1st inning aside), why not bring in the Hammer of God to hold the game right there, and actually give our offense a chance?

    This isnt me thinking in hindsight, I always think about utilizing our best relief pitcher not only in save situations, but in true high leverage situations(sure they could happen in the 9th, but when it’s slapping you in the face in the 6th inning, why not “save” the game right there? you may never get a chance to be up in the 9th if you don’t)

    i guess i can’t be mad at joe, he’s just a product of the “conventional wisdom.” and heck, if he tries something different and it doesnt work the first time, he’ll probably get killed in the media(not like it should matter)

    am I completely alone on this?

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

      You are not alone. A few us were chatting about it via RAB @ Twitter after the game ended. Considering that Rivera has not pitched since Thursday, you would think the Yanks would find a way to get him to help out even if they’re losing. Girardi is too married to the save situation. Rivera should have been in for those high-leverage situations tonight.

      • kunaldo

        phew, good to know…i know pretty much everyone here is sabr-oriented, but i wasnt sure how you guys felt about this

        just one guy has to start the trend, show how successful it can be, and rid the game of the conventional save…then it has the chance to spread like wildfire…i really had hoped it would be girardi…dang it

        • Reggie C.

          Maybe the Yanks should hire you for 1 day. Your one goal: convince the greatest closer of the modern era that he’ll no longer be exclusively used in save situations.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

            As sarcastic as your reply sounds, you’d be surprised when it actually works as a strategy and the world does not end.

            Rivera is getting paid to do more than get three outs against some team’s 6-7-8 hitters in a 3-run game. They should make use of it.

            • Chris

              Just one point I’d like to throw out there: (almost) every time we’ve questioned why a quality reliever isn’t used more, it turns out he has some injury.

          • kunaldo

            i see your point, since the players themselves believe in the magic of the ninth inning, whether it’s the heart of the order coming up with a 1 run lead or the scrubs with a 3 run lead.

            however, i would like to believe that Mo, being the great man that he is, would want to do what’s best for the team…

            besides, he isnt technically used exclusively in save situations….

  • Reggie C.

    I think Melky’s been playing above his actual ceiling in the past week, but that deserves a BRAVO. However, when he’s not the #7 hitter in the lineup, that’s just not going to do. Beckett should’ve been touched up for a couple more runs. Is it Pena and Molina’s fault they couldn’t bring in the tying run? No. Even against the ropes , Beckett overmatched those guys.

    Joba’s 5.2 innings should get some applause, but the end result isn’t a win. We’ve dropped 5 games against Boston, and we look like pretenders. Two days into the this week, and with 2 more games a lively divisional rival , I’m gonna predict that we’re not gonna be at .500 before Arod gets here.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

      So you’re predicted a sweep at the hands of the Rays with A.J. and Andy on deck? That’s a pessimistic prediction. I’d bet on the Yanks to be right at .500 when A-Rod returns.

    • steve (different one)

      Is it Pena and Molina’s fault they couldn’t bring in the tying run? No. Even against the ropes , Beckett overmatched those guys.

      of course it’s Pena’s fault.

      give me a break. the infield was back, conceding the run, and Beckett was basically TRYING to walk him to get to Molina.

      he took 2 balls, then swung at 3 more out of the strike zone. it was a terrible at bat. even acknowledging what he is as a player, he’s better than that.

  • http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Aunt Becca-Optimist Prime

    This rain is suffocating.

    Last year without A-Rod we went 9-15.

    I’ll take 13-13. Actually, considering who’s NOT in the line up: Wang, A-Rod, Bruney, Nady just to start, 13-13 is something of a small miracle.

    • BigBlueAL

      Well Boston has no SS, has had Dice-K on the DL since opening week, has had Big Papi hit no HR’s so far, have had Beckett pitch to an ERA over 7 and are 17-10.

      I agree being 13-13 at this point with how bad the Yankees have played is an actual positive but please dont make it seem like the poor, unlucky Yankees should be praised for their start of the season.

      • Brooklyn Ed

        well if you out the the Yanks lucky win last Friday and the Melky walk off A’s games, they would be 11-15 technically.

        • RollingWave

          and if you out the times the Yankees pitched well and / or hit well, they’d be 0-26 technically.

        • steve (different one)

          well if you out the the Yanks lucky win last Friday and the Melky walk off A’s games, they would be 11-15 technically.

          wait, why would we do that, exactly?

          what’s the difference b/w Melky’s win and some of the wins Boston “stole” during their win streak? can we dismiss their last win in Cleveland b/c they fell behind early and a scrub OFer hit an extra inning HR?

  • Rich

    I realize that a lot of starters struggle in the first inning as they adjust to the mound and find a comfort zone, but…

    They really need to be patient with Melancon, who was obviously overthrowing tonight after his last outing on May 1st when he was inexplicably brought in with the bases loaded, because his emergence is the best insurance against them moving Joba to the pen.

    I also thought Pena should have been told to squeeze the runner in from 3B.

    btw, Nice opening sentence.

    • steve (different one)

      i was wondering what the excuse for Melancon was going to be.

      i love Melancon too, but he’s not getting the job done YET. i want him to keep getting chances, b/c he’s young and has shown great stuff in the minors, but this is hilarious.

      he was “overthrowing” b/c Girardi “brought him in with the bases loaded” 4 days ago.

      he pitched like shit. can’t we admit that? whenever Melancon or Robertson fail, it’s somehow Girardi’s fault.

      Girardi actually brought him into a nice, low leverage situation last night, and he couldn’t throw a strike. so we shouldn’t use him in high leverage situations and we shouldn’t use him in low leverage situations.

      do i have that about right?

      • Rich

        There is a difference between an excuse and an explanation. There are no excuses in life, and my intent was not to make one.

        He hasn’t pitched like shit. He has had two effective outings followed by two ineffective outings, one of which the manager bears some responsibility for because it was moronic to put him in that situation.

        Granted, he sucked last night.

        • steve (different one)

          Granted, he sucked last night.

          that was all i was referring to with the “pitched like shit”, last night.

          sorry if that wasn’t clear.

  • BigBlueAL

    Im hoping that after Bay’s HR Joba said fuck this shit trying to pitch like Greg Maddux and let me be Joba again. I saw the first 4 batter before having to go ump a game and I mentioned it on the thread, he threw all 2-seamers to Ellsbury between 89-91 and almost got killed by a line drive. Throwing a 2-seamer is no less stress than throwing a 4-seamer. Forget this trying to get quick outs using a 2-seamer because basically he was throwing Ellsbury to start the game his 5th best pitch repeatedly.

    Joba the starter needs to be what Joba the reliever was. Of course he is not going to throw 98 mph every pitch, if at all, but it shouldnt be difficult to throw all his fb’s in the 93-96 range for the whole game. Joba is 23, not 43. Clemens at his age wasnt throwing 2-seamers to get quick outs, he did that once he started approaching 40. I dont mind at all him using all his breaking and off-speed pitches, but please scrap the freakin 2-seamer.

    Anyway sorry for that little rant, btw in 1985 Yogi Berra was fired after 15 games and replaced by Billy Martin but the Yankees did win 97 games that season. Too bad there was no WC back then….

  • pat

    Just got home from the game, ugh it was miserable out there. I’ve come to the conclusion that as much as I love the Yanks I’m really starting to hate 99% of the fans. The “Boston Sucks” chants are just straight embarrassing. I wish people realized how pathetic it is to start chanting ‘boston sucks’ while we’re getting hosed for the fifth time in a row. The booing is also out of control. Tex strikes out in the first and a chorus of bronx cheers rains down, I turn to the guy behind me who’s cursing up a storm and ask why he’s booing as tex pretty much single handedly kept us in the game last night. His response- CUZ HIS F*CKING BATTING AVERAGE SUCKS BRO. I could do nothing but hang my head in disgust.

    The one bright spot occurred as I was leaving through the left field/river ave. exit. A little scuffle broke out between some yankee fans and a couple sox fans, dunno what started it exactly but things turned awesome when a random Yankee fan took two steps then a crow hop and unleased the most magnificent mike tyson/kermit washington type haymaker I have ever seen. The unsuspecting victim initially wasn’t looking, but turned his head at the last possible second to receive the rapidly approaching fist directly in his left eyesocket. Everybody who was standing around watching let out a gigantic OHHHHHHHHH!!! and went nuts. The boston kid collapsed and the cops came out of nowhere and started jacking people up before anymore chaos could ensue.
    In summation, shitty game, awesome suckerpunch, we need to start winning some games, and by Mo do we need a decent pinch hitter.

    • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

      Dude, you have to realize that the more you know about baseball, the smaller the pool is of fans that you can relate to. Talking crap with a random fan will do nothing but cause migraines.

      • andrew

        You hit the nail the head. It turns out RAB is one of the few places where I can come to and engage in intelligent baseball discussion anymore. Damn you RAB for making me smarter!!

    • upupup

      so you think someone punching an unsuspecting person in the head and perhaps seriously injuring him is awesome?

      You sound like a hell of a guy.

  • Brooklyn Ed

    when A-Rod gets back, the Yanks still need an extra man to pinch hit for Molina during late innings. I highly doubt Girardi will have Cervelli pinch hitting.

  • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

    Karl Ravech: “What did Joba give the Yanks tonight?”

    John Kruk: “Nothing.”

    Ah, man, how can you not laugh out loud at this point? Or has it gotten to the point where anyone who makes a case for the Joba-to-the-bullpen cause is just met with a feeling of pity and sadness?

    • kunaldo

      haha i just saw that too…it’s really pathetic…i think he knows he’s wrong(no one could be THAT stupid, right?), but he’s just too stubborn to give in

      didnt help that ravech set him up for failure(“he only pitched about 6 innings and left the game losing)

      i just do the sane thing now and change the channel

      • Joey

        “no one could be THAT stupid, right?”

        The longer you listen to him the more you realize he is beyond THAT stupid, it’s the sad reality of it

        • AlexNYC

          I really hate John Kruk. As a matter of fact i hate BSPN.

          I laughed at Reynolds because he seemed shocked of Joba’s performance. That’s right Harold, keep it shut and let Joba do to you and all the other B-Jobbers what he did to Jorge Posada.

          (Insert expletive for the former Philly bum)

          • Dave M

            Eckersly was shocked too over the NESN. Before the game and all though the first couple of innings, he kept talking about how Joba belongs in the pen because, he only has 2 pitches. Then about the 3rd or 4th inning, he started to change his tune a bit. At one point he was pissed and said “they didn’t tell me he had a circle change!”. I guess they didnt’ tell him about the curve, the 2 seamer (not real good yet), or the cutter either. I think Joba might have found something last night. Let’s hope it continues.

    • Rich

      If stupidity was an Olympic event, Kruk would win more gold medals than Michael Phelps.

      • http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Aunt Becca-Optimist Prime

        +1

  • Andrew W

    I clearly think Joba should be in the bullpen. He has serious potential as a starter. But as the Yanks have inning count after inning count its rediculous that Joba at best is a 5 6 inning pitcher. His explosivness that can be affected in every game should be in the bullpen as it has struggled enormously. I think once Wang gets back it should be a real serious consideration. The great Yankees teams of the past had terrific bullpens and the inconsistency of this one is a very serious problem

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

      I clearly think you don’t what you talking about. That is most ass-backwards argument ever, and I refuse to engage someone pursuing this line of reasoning in a serious discussion of the issue.

      Sorry to mince words, but it’s nearly 1 a.m. and I’ve been studying Con Law since 11 a.m. I’m in no mood to be diplomatic.

    • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

      I know I shouldn’t be, but I am literally dumbfounded that any functioning human being would argue that Joba Chamberlain should be in the bullpen after tonight’s performance.

      • andrew

        just to play devil’s advocate… Joba gave up 4 runs in 5.2 innings with 12 K’s. If Joba pitched 150 innings at this pace, he’d strike out over 300 batters, but would also have an ERA of over 6. I don’t care if he strikes out every single batter he faces, if he is going to pitch to an ERA of 6.3, I don’t want him as a starter. Felix Hernandez threw 6 innings last night, struck out 9, but gave up 6 ER’s. Just because he struck out a lot of guys, doesn’t mean it was a good outing.

        Yea, Joba looked dominant for 4.2 innings tonight, but you can’t ignore the first inning just because it helps your argument.

        (I still want Joba to be a starter, and was unbelievably impressed by his last 4.2 innings tonight… I’m just trying to say that it’s not unreasonable for people to conclude otherwise based on tonight’s outing. We, as anti-B-Jobbers, can at times be just as biased as those who want Joba in the pen)

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

          It’s not his last 4.2 innings. It was every out he got starting with the sixth batter in the first inning.

          That bullshit Joba-to-the-pen argument just doesn’t make anysense. I’m not even going to get into it because, based on my mood right now, I’ll just be nasty to people. Seriously. Leave it be.

          • Frank

            “He showed why the B-Jobbers who continue to advocate for his move to the bullpen are wrong, and he was as dominant as a pitcher can be. ”

            If only it were that simple.

            John Kruk and BBTN were INSUFFERABLE tonight. Kruk was almost shouting at the cameras about why Joba should be in the bullpen. All I could do was shake my head.

            These days, when I hear reporters (mostly ESPN employees) advocate Joba to the bullpen… I honestly believe they secretly don’t want the Yankees to succeed.

          • Dean

            The Joba to the Pen argument makes ABSOLUTE sense. The Yankees and the Red Sox have been doing this same dance for the last 10 years. The games are always close and the result is almost always determined by what happens in the 7th and 8th innings…..If Joba had left with a 5-4 lead the Yanks would have still lost. Why? Because the Yanks send those gas cans to the mound in the late innings…

            And when you consider the pitch count hanging over his head, that decreases the chance of Joba going deep into games. Especially against teams that work the count like the Red Sox. If the Yankees make it to October, does anyone out there really want even Brian Bruney on the mound with the game in the balance? Not if you don’t want your heart broken. Aside from Phil Coke, none of the middle reliever/wannabe set-up men can even throw strikes…Which is a recipe for disaster…

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

              Maybe we’ll institute a new commenter policy. Anyone who alleges that Joba “clearly” belongs in the pen or that the argument “makes ABSOLUTE sense” should have to prove their worth as baseball fans.

              If you think these games are determined by what happens in the 7th and 8th and not what happens in the 6 innings prior as well, then you just don’t know how to analyze baseball. Moving the guy emerging as your best starter into the pen because your middle relief corps sucks is not how to construct a team by any means. Luckily the Yankees know that.

            • Joey

              You lost all credibility with your first sentence, well done. Don’t know why I’m responding, guess I’m in a better mood than Ben. The pitch count argument is complete bullshit considering every pitcher in the league is on one, obviously some more tight (young guys, yes, including Joba) than others (CC, most non-injury prone vets).

              The first part of your argument is just too stupid for me to bother to refute and considering it’s been done just about daily here look around, you’ll find it.

              I don’t know why I wasted my time, but since I typed it, here you go, I’m going to bed

              • AlexNYC

                Guys.

                Didn’t Cole Hamels had a start last year where he tossed 5 innings, allowed 7 earned runs and struck out 12 batters? Why isn’t anybody calling him for the pen??

                We should leave the innings limit on Joba. I will not be happy if the Yanks CC’ed him. Doc Gooden tossed 276 innings at age 20 and broke down sooner than expected.

                • AlexNYC

                  whoopsie…it wasnt 7er it was probably 5 innings with 12k’s while he took the loss.

          • Dave M

            Couldn’t agree more Ben.

    • Brooklyn Ed

      you being a Yankee fan, FAILED.

    • Rich

      The word is spelled ridiculous.

  • Bryan

    Is anyone else confused over Joe’s bullpen management? Cause I sure am. He loves to mix and match, its driving me nuts!

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

      What really bothered me tonight was his decision to take out Phil Coke after 11 pitches. Coke’s been the only reliever pitching well lately, and as recently as this winter, the Yanks were saying they were grooming him to be a starter. I have to believe then that Coke can (a) throw more than 11 pitches per appearance; (b) go more than 0.2 innings at a time; and (c) get out righties. That irked me at the time tonight.

      • V

        True.

      • steve (different one)

        and if Bay takes Coke deep, the calls for Girardi’s head would be even louder.

        fact is that NO yankee pitcher has been able to get out Bay, yet Albaladejo got him to ground out to 3B.

        Pena booted it, but that’s not on Albaladejo.

        i’d like to see Coke used more, but i am also 99% sure that if Melancon didn’t shit the bed, you guys would have been writing how Girardi “blew it” by not using him in the 8th.

        admit it.

        fact is, Girardi can’t do ANYTHING with the way the bullpen is pitching right now. there is NOTHING he can do. he has NO ONE.

        i thought going to get Veras sooner rather than earlier was a good move. and i can concede that he could have left Coke in, but i also don’t have a problem with taking out the lefty against a guy hitting lefties to the tune of…wait for it…..

        .391/.517/.652!!!!!!!!

        how can you blame Girardi for looking at that line and not taking out the lefty.

        you guys are nitpicking. i’m sorry. Pena doesn’t boot that ball, and Girardi looks like a genius.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph Pawlikowski

          I’m right with you, steve (and also like how things get a bit saner when you get to work in the morning).

          People also overlook how Girardi picked his spots with Veras and Edwar and picked them well.

          • steve (different one)

            it’s gotten to the point where everyone is so frustrated with the team that Girardi is being blamed for EVERYTHING, whether or not it’s warranted.

            look at that line from Bay.

            seriously.

            Jason Bay = Babe Ruth against lefties this year.

            Jason Bay has hit every single yankee pitch into the seats this year.

            Girardi pulls the ONE string that actually yields the correct result, but the best defensive played in the ENTIRE organization boots the ball.

            that about sums up how things are going right now.

      • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt ACTY

        I posted it last night and I’m doing it again:

        7/13 times, Phil Coke has pitched less than one inning. I don’t get it. Why did Joe G become Joe T?

        • steve (different one)

          come on, dig a little deeper.

          sometimes it’s perfectly acceptable to do that.

          let’s say you have a tight game in the 8th. use Coke to get the lefty, then Bruney to get the righty.

          Mo in the 9th. ballgame.

          it’s not ALWAYS stupid to use a reliever for less than an inning.

      • Dave M

        I was more bothered that he took out Veras againts VanWhatshisname. I didn’t like the Coke vs. Pedrioa match up. Veras didnt’ look that bad. I would have left him in to face Vanpukenstein and Pedrioa. Then brought in Coke for Big Sloppy and left him in for the next inning.

    • V

      Given that almost none of them can throw strikes and/or get outs, it really doesn’t matter who he uses, at this point.

    • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

      No, I actually liked the move. I would’ve brought in Albaladejo’s 93-94 MPH running fastball against the red-hot tandem of Jason Bay and Mike Lowell myself. One, you don’t want Bay to poke one of Coke’s 90-91 MPH heaters over the RF wall, and two, you can’t shy away from these guys so early in the year.

  • dkidd

    how awesome was coke tonight? loved the fire

  • http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Aunt Becca-Optimist Prime

    There are people commenting on my facebook status actually advocating for Joba to be in the bullpen.

    If you’re on my facebook friend’s list, please, set them right!

    • Stormrider6

      Alas, I can’t get to Facebook at work…

  • DocBooch

    Whould it be so hard to actually leave a guy in when he is being effective? Bringing in 4 relievers for 3 innings never works. How many games did Torre blow doing that. It just takes one guy how is not finding the plate to blow the whole thing up. Damn you Tony LaRussa

    • steve (different one)

      It just takes one guy how is not finding the plate to blow the whole thing up.

      right, but that’s not what happened.

      what happened was that Albaladejo got in on Bay, who grounded out to 3B, but Pena bobbled the ball.

      the Bay stole 2B.

      then he broke Lowell’s bat and got him to ground out to 2B.

      then he gave up a sacrifice fly.

      game over.

  • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

    It bears repeating: In his 17-start career, Joba Chamberlain has started 9 games in which he has pitched into the sixth inning or later whilst allowing 1 ER or fewer. Again, the majority of Joba Chamberlain’s starts as a Major League pitcher has seen him pitch into the sixth inning or later whilst allowing one earned run or less.

    If you argue that this pitcher should be in the bullpen then I will fight you.

    • DocBooch

      He also has the 6th lowest ERA as a starter over the last 15 games. The other 5 are all studs

      • V

        Where’d you get that stat?

        • http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=594331910&ref=name Jamal G.

          Via the Elias Sports Bureau, YES showed it during the game. If I can recall correctly, four-out-of-the-five starters were:

          CC Sabathia
          Johan Santana
          Rich Harden
          Roy Oswalt

          I really don’t remember the last dude.

          • V

            Wonder if Greinke would be on the list. His last 6 starts have been amazing.

          • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

            The last one on the list is none other than the man Omar Minaya opted not to sign so he could keep his $12 million middle reliever.

            That’s right — It’s Derek Lowe.

            • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt ACTY

              I said this to TSJC yesterday: a friend of mine, who’s a Mets fan, was arguing w/me that Perez over Lowe was the right move.

    • http://forums.projectcovo.com/images/smilies/e6omir.gif Expired Milk

      I would like help you in the beatdown of B-Jobbers

  • DocBooch

    I’m sorry 6 guys for 3.1 innings…

  • V

    Next outing, I hope Joba brings this heat from batter #1.

    95-96 4-seamer, changeup, curveball, slider, in and out of the strike zone. No one can sit on anything in any count.

  • V

    Re: B-Jobbers. Harold Reynolds seems to be a B-Jobber, but the others on MLB Network could barely hide their contempt of the idea.

    • DocBooch

      unfortunately Lieter and Plesac are too…last time I heard them speak about it at least

      • AlexNYC

        I believe Al Leiter isn’t a B-Jobber. Correct me if I’m wrong. I heard he was the only one to agree that Joba should start.

        • AlexNYC

          Instead of heard I meant think.

          My Grammar = fail.

  • Frank
    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

      Ah yes, Dumb and Dumber of the B-Jobber movement. Ian O’Connor is a moron, and right now, I’m happy to say that with my name attached to it in public. Ed Price has his moments; that’s not one of them.

      • http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Aunt Becca-Optimist Prime

        The Record’s sports sectio was so much more enjoyable when Klapisch was still there writing regularly

  • Drew

    We groom these guys in the minors to pitch more than one inning. Why, if a pitcher is effective, don’t we allow them to pitch more than an inning up here?

    • DocBooch

      Inning? at this point I’d be happy if Girardi left an effective pitcher in for a whole inning

      • steve (different one)

        Why, if a pitcher is effective, don’t we allow them to pitch more than an inning up here?

        and who has been effective? really, where are these “effective” relievers that Girardi is robbing of the ability to shut down the opposition?

        this has happened about twice the entire season, and last night was pretty easy to justify if you look at Bay’s splits.

  • BigBlueAL

    Why do all you guys get so frustrated with the way ESPN and the rest of the national media rip/take shots at the Yankees???

    I guess since I live in Miami I am used to hearing so much crap from people about the Yankees, which is worse because most of these people arent even fans of a particular team since nobody down here are true Marlins fans anyway. Look the Yankees have by far the biggest payroll and if you dont think that is what influences people’s thinking you are missing the boat. Thats all I hear is about how what a joke the Yankees are now with their payroll and how they will never win a WS with Arod and they are the biggest waste of money blah blah blah.

    Granted with how much I bragged about the Yankees from 1996-2000 I have to take it with a smile but remember around the country people got so tired of the Yankees always winning and again their payroll reaching the absurd numbers it has reached recently has lead to all the anti-Yankee talk. It doesnt help also that the Red Sox were lovable losers who now after 86 years have won 2 WS in 4 years and seem to own the Yankees now. The Yankees outside of NY truly are looked at as the Evil Empire. People who arent even fans of certain teams still root against the Yankees like crazy. Like I said I deal with those types of people all the time.

    It sucks and is real annoying at times, but unfortunately it is what it is….

    • Joey

      I hear you, I live in Coral Springs, my dad works in Hialeah, and the Yankee hate is everywhere. The thing that bothers me so much is the bias of so many on the biggest national sports provider, ESPN of course. That and idiots (most of whom I call friends) that know nothing about baseball or they follow baseball and don’t know shit about the Yankees trying to argue with me about the Yankees, especially about Joba lately. Maybe it’s because I have a pretty short temper and they know it’s a hot button with me, trying to piss me off, I don’t know

      • ranger11

        I live in the Tampa area and recently have had to deal with everybody becoming Rays fans. Where were these people the ten years prior to last? They call me a bad fan because I root for a team that spends a lot of money? Give me a f’n break!

        • Joey

          Definition of fair weather fans: most people that live in Florida. Granted Dolphins fans are different, as much as I hate them they’re pretty much always there for their team, but other than that they all suck. Marlins, Rays, Panthers, Lightening, Heat, Magic, not sure about the Bucs or Jaguar are all basically fanless unless they play well (excluding each teams hardcore group of fans that each has obviously)

          • Andy in Sunny Daytona

            I think the reason for the fair weather fan base in Florida is history. Most of the franchises you mentioned have no history. The Dolphins have been around for 40 or so years now, and they had spectacular early success 37 years ago. Buccaneer fans are pretty loyal (which includes yours truly) despite their past failures. The Jaguars should have never been here, they belong in LA. The Magic have a nice fan base, but the team is still only 20 years old. Hockey? Come on, it’s Florida. Hockey belongs up north. The baseball teams are entirely different. Until last season, it was hard to be a Rays fan, they had THE worst front office and ownership in the American League. They have righted the ship and their fanbase. Good for them. The Marlins, why in the world would anyone be a Marlins fan? Imagine everytime the Yankees won a WS, they traded the entire team. How loyal could anyone be to a franchise that does this?

  • stuart

    why do people constantly talk about Joba o the pen?? It is so old it is ridiculous. Domianting starting pitching overrulese everything else. He has the potential to be a dominating starting pitcher, how hard is that to understand.. A dominating starting pitcher can win a game all by himself no other player can do that!!!

    What can we do about the pen? any viable realistic options?

    WHat have you guys seen in Melancon, I thought he would really hit the ground running, his domiantion in the minors, his college success etc.. Will they send him down? They need 1 more bat for pinch hitting etc. immediately.I did not see the game tonight so I have no clue how off Melancon was..

    the other sites are just to hard to blog on to many crazies..

    thanks..

  • V
  • mustang

    Went to my first game at the stadium tonight and I came away with three things.
    1- The Stadium is beautiful I couldn’t get enough I was like a little kid at a candy shop.
    2- The food prices were as ridiculous as some of their seat prices, but the food was better.
    3-The crowd SUCKED. This was Yankees/Red Sox and the energy in the place was low. A few fans tired to get things going and got little to no response. I guess this sums it up the guy in front of me picked up his golf magazine and left with his friends when the Red Sox had bases loaded and the score was 4 to 3. I guess this is the new type of Yankees fan.
    Give me the new stadium and the old fans, please.

    • mustang

      And thanks to the Red Sox for fucking my first game.

  • mustang

    Can someone tell me why Girardi pulled Joba when he did?

    • Joey

      I believe PC was 108

      • mustang

        Ok so 108 is the new magic number I will remember that for next time. My sarcasm is not meant towards you Joey thank you for answering my question.

        • steve (different one)

          come on. WTF difference would it have made?

          at most, Joba would get ONE more batter. and Veras got that batter anyway.

          i don’t get it.

          if Joba strains something on his 115th pitch, you guys would be KILLING him.

          KILLING him.

          • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

            “This front office fanbase is embarrasing.”

            • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

              spelling fail, i know.

        • Dave M

          His pitch count limit was probably 100 or 105, but wanted him to finish the batter. Or his limit is 110, and they didn’t want him starting something he couldn’t finish with the next guy

  • stuart

    108 pitches thrown. he really has not gone much over that in his career…

  • AlexNYC

    Melancon was not very good today. Seemed like he did not have any command on his pitches. I guess he must have been rusty, 3 days rest for a reliever is too much.

    In addition, when the heck can we see Robertson pitch a little more? Enough with the Albaladejo’s and Ramirez’s, toss Robertson and Melancon in there and see what they can do. I’m sick and tired of watching Robertson be the Mop up guy instead of Veras/Ramirez.

  • DCR

    Its sad that there are literally two guys (Rivera and lately Coke) that can get outs in this bullpen. Something has to be done. I don’t know what, but something has to happen. They can’t keep marching out Veras, Ramirez, and Albaladejo out there to take it up the bum.

  • BigBlueAL

    Check out Joel Sherman’s article today. He says Joba should stay in the rotation!!! And to think all of you guys hate him….

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/05062009/sports/yankees/game_like_this_shows_he_belongs_in_rotat_167888.htm

  • Tony

    Girardi’s love affair with Alphabet needs to end, Edwar needs to be in Scranton, and Veras needs to be in mop-up only mode. Give Roberton a real chance one of these days, please.

    • Andy in Sunny Daytona

      You know what would be a good starting point for Robertson to gain Girardi’s trust? When coming in with the bases loaded, NOT walking someone.

      I hope the beginning of the season helps people see how much of symbiotic relationship that starters and the bullpen have. If it goes wrong for the starters over an extended period of time, it will also go bad for the bullpen eventually.

      • Sweet Dick Willie

        To be fair, D-Rob came in with the bases loaded and no outs. He retired the first two, and the walk was on a borderline pitch.

        I thought he did a good job, all things considered.

        • steve (different one)

          he did alright, but the walk was inexcusable simply b/c of who the batter was. still, hopefully he opened Girardi’s eyes a little.

  • Pingback: The Better Side of Joba Last Night « Generation Third

  • Steve B Ball

    Start by getting rid of Little Girardi

  • Ed

    Let’s face it. In the AL East the Yanks are a third place team right now. They look overmatched and oddly enough tired. If CC, AJ and Tex start to earn their money they may turn it around, but the team looks old and flat. For the first time since I moved to DC five years ago, I would rather watch the Nats. They lose twice as much as the Yanks and don’t give me an ulcer.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph Pawlikowski

      You know what my favorite part about baseball is? That the Yankees can look like a third place team now, but by the end of the month they can look like a first place team.

      They play baseball every day for six months. There are going to be ups and downs. Teams play differently at different points in the season. Yet the tenor of some of tonight’s comments makes it seem like some people don’t understand that concept.

      • Stephen

        so you’re saying the season is NOT over after 26 games? You just blew my mind.

        • thurdonpaul

          lol

  • jonathan

    Who cares where joba is put, the fact is that this team blows. Whoever questions someones knowledge of baseball after being upset about Tex striking out needs realize its not that strike out…its the fact that he has been fairly aweful for us this season. People are so quick to mention how he kept us in the game the other night…thats one game where he performed up to par…the rest of the season he has sucked. Joba the starter vs. Joba in the pen…does not matter either way if he gives up 4 ER in the first inning of action he is not doing his job. The way we have been playing, it is a miracle that we are 13-13…that just makes me think that things are gonna get worse. GOD I MISS BOBBY ABREU, THE MAN COULD HIT WITH RISP!!!

    • Ed

      Agreed.

    • Trapped In El Duque’s Glove

      GOD I WISH NICK SWISHER WAS IN THE ‘PEN!!!

      Sorry, thought we had to shout to make ourselves heard these days….

      “that just makes me think that things are gonna get worse”

      How do you figure that? We’re at .500 with shaky starting pitching (well, pitching in general) and the biggest bat in the lineup missing. We’ll be fine.

      • jonathan

        “Our biggest bat in the lineup missing” are you talking about Tex,A-rod,or Posada? You are kidding yourself if you think that A-rod is going to turn this team around. This is a guy that has failed in the face of adversity time and time again. Sure hes is great for making a 7-5 win a 9-5 win but beyond that…crap. Now if you talking about Tex…well we can hope that he decides to come to work more than once a month but its a reach.
        I think its gonna get worse due to the A-roid circus that is on its way to the bronx sometime soon. This a team that is not high on itself right now….have the A-roid black cloud come to town isnt going to help. Oh not to mention Joe is still managing the bullpen and it sort of answers itself

        • V

          In 2007, ARod led the majors in WPA.

          If that’s ‘failing in the face of adversity’, I’ll take that another 9 times, thankyouverymuch.

        • Trapped In El Duque’s Glove

          “Sure hes is great for making a 7-5 win a 9-5 win but beyond that…crap”

          That’s just wrong on so many levels.

        • Stephen

          You really believe that the guy who has won 2 MVPs in 5 years with the Yankees can’t turn the Yankees around? What is this, LoHud?

          • steve (different one)

            with the Joba arguments in this thread, i’m starting to wonder if it IS LoHud.

            • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

              Heh.

  • Tampa Yankee

    So Steve Phillips on Monday Night Baseball says that while he started out believing Joba should be in the rotation he now thinks he should be in the pen because he was dominant in the pen and average as a starter.

    So this morning on Mike and Mike, after Joba’s performance, he says if Joba continues to be a “special” starter he should be left in the rotation and that the Yankees should think about Hughes in the pen!!1!!1 Stating that when he came out of the pen against the Indians in the playoffs he was throwing 96-97 and now only 88-89. He said that once CMW comes back and is back to form that the Yankees should not be closed to the idea of Hughes in the pen as long as Joba continues to have “special” starts like last night.

    I have now lost ALL respect for everyone in the MLB department at ESPN. I didn’t have any for Phillips but I did for Gammons and Olney and between him and Kruk they negate it.

    • Stephen

      the KLAW, the KLAW!

      Keith Law’s facebook status last night:
      Joba just struck out 12 of 25 hitters he faced against maybe the best offense in the majors. Yeah, he belongs in the pen.

    • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

      Wow, I’m actually not suprised by this. At all.

  • Will

    I couldn’t disagree with this post more. There are no moral victories in Yankee land, nor should there be. The fact of the matter is Joba failed to give the Yankees innings and gave up 4 runs in the process (he pitched to a 6.35 ERA last night). It doesn’t matter that he K’ed 12. That’s all window dressing.

    Also, while I think Joba should be a starter for the long-term, last night’s game did more to advance the Joba to the pen argument. Unfortunately, getting 5 innings/game and a 3.77 ERA from a starter probably isn’t as valuable to the Yankees right now as adding a dominant arm to the bullpen.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph Pawlikowski

      “last night’s game did more to advance the Joba to the pen argument.”

      This is where I think most B-Jobbers go wrong. No one game advances the argument at all. Joba’s greatest long-term value lies in him being a starter. He’s young. He’s going to travel some bumpy roads. All young pitchers do. But to move him to the bullpen now would be to hinder his development as a starter.

      This isn’t about 2009. If the Yankees want to set back the development of the best young pitcher in the system because they want to win this year, then they deserve what comes to them. Joba needs to start every 5 days if he’s going to be a starter over the long haul. This means taking the bad with the good.

      • Will

        Like or not, the Yankees are not playing the 2009 to develop players for the future. It is about 2009…you don’t spend a ton of money in the offseason to have a “wait ’til next year approach”, especially when you consider that Damon, Matsui, Jeter, Posada and Arod aren’t getting younger.

        I really wish this team had the luxury of allowing Joba to develop into a starter, but they do not. I also don’t think there is any evidence to suggest that having Joba pitch in relief will set back his development to the extent you suggets. For example, Johan Santana went back and forth between the pen and rotation up until his age-24 season and that worked out ok. I don’t see why Joba can’t do the same.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph Pawlikowski

          That’s not a valid comparison with Santana. He was in the bullpen to start not because they wanted him there or thought he could help him more there, but because he was a Rule 5 pick and had to stay on the 25-man roster. Then he was hurt the next year and made only 15 appearances. Finally, in 2003, they stated him in the pen as to limit his innings, because he had only thrown 43 the year before. This is not the case with Joba. They need him in the rotation so he can build up his innings and move forward, not throw only 100 innings again and go through the same schtick next year.

          • Will

            The reason he was in the bullpen is irrelevant. The fact is he went between starting and relieving up until his age-24 season. Also, the timeline sounds kind of familiar. Joba has also suffered an injury and the Yankees also need to limit his innings. Regardless of where he pitches, the Yankees can’t really extend Joba too much anyway. He had 100 innings last year, so something between 130 and 150 is probably the best target. That can be accomplished just as easily with Joba going to the pen and perhaps returning to the rotation at the end of the year (esp. if the Yankees fall out of it).

            • Trapped In El Duque’s Glove

              Of course it’s relevant – you’re trying to compare two things that have a vague similarity and then base your outcome on saying that they’re the same!

              • Will

                That’s silly. For starters, the similarity is definitely not vague. Secondly, if Santana was in the pen because he was a Rule-5 and Joba was in the pen because the Yankees needed someone to talk to Mo, it wouldn’t change the fact they were performing the same role at about the same point in their respective careers.

            • Stephen

              “The reason he was in the bullpen is irrelevant”

              Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up.

              Also you’re wrong, Joba CAN’T just as easily get to 130-150 innings in the bullpen and as we’ll all have seen, transitioning from the bullpen to the rotation takes a long time, and is wasting his talent in the process (going from 2 innings to 3 to 4 and so on)

              • Will

                Using Santana again as an example, in 2003 he pitched 158 innings, including 18 starts and 27 relief appearances. Such a formula would work perfectly for Joba. It CAN be done if planned properly.

                Again, if Joba stays in the bullpen and hits his limt around start 25, what do the Yankees do then? Shut him down during the pennant race? Or simply push him to the max? If anything, the latter seems to be more of a detriment to his future than using a hybrid role.

                • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph Pawlikowski

                  Excellent. A reasoned approach. I dig. Yes, this can be done. However, it would have to be conditional that Joba isn’t JUST the 8th inning guy. He’d have to come into all sorts of situations and extinguish fires.

                  That said, let’s see what pace he’s on and how he’s pitching mid-June. That should give the Yanks a better take on the situation.

      • Ed

        If CC and CMW had pitched up to their expectations the Joba to the Pen discussion wouldn’t even have been brought up. If they pitched well the bullpen would be more rested and his 5-6 innings would be fine once every five days. If Phil Hughes and Joba are our best pitchers this year their bumpy roads are gonna hurt us. If they are our fourth and fifth best starters this year the Yanks can turn it around.

    • Trapped In El Duque’s Glove

      “There are no moral victories in Yankee land, nor should there be”

      So we should be winning every game, is that what you’re saying?

      What’s next? AJ’s ERA is too high, send him to the ‘pen so he can pitch 2 innings per day and we don’t need to worry about starters only going 5 innings?! Please.

      • Will

        You can’t win every game, but taking satisfaction in a pitcher who thre to a 6.5 ERA strikes me as the kind of attitude that leads to a permanent lowering of standards.

        Not sure what your point about Burnett is, so I can’t respond.

        • Nady Nation

          So now we’re judging Joba on a start by start basis, huh? How about last start when he gave up 1 earned in 7 innings on 88 pitches? Were you calling for him to go to the bullpen then? If Joba was in the ‘pen like you wanted him to be, do you know who would’ve been pitching those first 5.2 innings last night? Kei Igawa. If you think on his worst day he could ever dream of pitching 5.2 innings giving up 4 ER with 12 K’s, against Boston’s lineup no less, than I don’t know what to tell you.

          • Will

            I am not judging him on a start-by-start basis. If you look at his career starting record and this season’s performance, he is averaging 5.5 innings/start. In fact, if he averages any more than that, there is no way he could even approach more than 25 starts anyway. What is the end game? If Wang comes back healthy and Hughes is pitching fine, then it makes all the sense in the world to shift Joba to the pen. He can always re-enter the rotation (perhaps to alleviate Hughes innings limit) later in the year as needed.

            Being rigid one way or the other doesn’t help the team, nor does it really help Joba.

            • Nady Nation

              I’m not being rigid. But he’s 23 years old. He’ll learn to become more economical with experience, and he needs to get that experience as a starter. But the bottom line is, it’s not just Joba who has had trouble pitching deep into games, it’s been the whole pitching staff. Moving Joba to the bullpen would do nothing to improve the team if it’s starters continue to go into only the 5th or 6th innings. Joba can’t pitch the 7th and 8th innings everyday.

              • Will

                Sabathia’s career: 6.5 IP/start and 7.2 in 2008
                Burnett’s career: 6.5 IP/start and 6.5 in 2008
                Pettitte’s career: 6.4 IP/start and 6.2 in 2008
                Wang’s career: 6.4 IP/start and 6.3 in 2008
                Joba’s career: 5.5 IP/start and 5.5 in 2008

                Whom do you honestly think is the candidate most likely to only go 5+ on a regular basis?

                Also, which of the above has an innings limit that could result in being shut down around 25-28 starts?

                • Nady Nation

                  I’m not really sure what you’re arguing here. I actually don’t have a problem with your stance, from what I understand of it after reading your reply to Joe above. I wouldn’t be opposed to some kind of bullpen hybrid IF Joba approaches his innings limit, as you suggested. But do you not want Joba to get those starts right now? If he goes to the bullpen immediately, he’ll never reach his innings limit and his development as a starter is pushed back even further.

                • Will

                  If I was the Yankees, I would give Joba two more starts while awaiting Wang’s return. Then, I’d return him to the bullpen until at least August, after which I would let the situation determine my course. If the Yankees need a dominant starter, they can move him back into the rotation. If they are coasting or are out of it, they can do the same with the purpose of ramping his innings. Or, if they can hit the 130-150 mark by keeping him in the pen (i.e., no token 8th inning only appearances), they could go that route too.

                  What I would not do is simply declare him a starter and let him hit his limit by mid-August, all while the bullpen burns around him and Hughes dominates AAA.

                • Nady Nation

                  Don’t you think we should wait until Bruney and Marte return and then see how glaring of a need the bullpen is, though? I know Marte hasn’t been great since he got here, but he has a long track record of a being a successful reliever, and if he’s fully healthy and 100%, he should be able to give us some quality innings.

                • Stephen

                  If you take out Joba’s first 2 starts when he was transitioning to the rotation, and his last when he got hurt, from June 13, 2008 to July 30, he pitched 54 innings in 9 starts= average of 6 innings/start.

                • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

                  If he didn’t go 8 and be the starter and the bridge to Mo all alone. He might as well just be the bridge alone. 6 innings isn’t acceptable for a 23 year old pitcher.

                • Stephen

                  Are you crazy? If he didn’t win the Cy Young in his first season, then he’s a bust who belongs at best in bullpen.

                • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

                  Just not living up the potential he once had. He’s not 17-2 or 18-0 in his 19 starts?

                  I seriously think they need to contemplate moving him to the pen. He just gave the Yankees “nothing” last night.

        • Trapped In El Duque’s Glove

          I never mentioned taking satisfaction in last night’s performance, so you can’t really infer what my attitude is or whether I’m lowering any standards that I may or may not have. I’m upset about losing last night, but I’m not blinkered enough to use it as a basis for starting some circular argument about Joba going to the ‘pen.

          As for AJ – I’m curious why people who stridently argue for Joba going to the ‘pen and quote his current or projected ERA as support for that argument don’t then argue that AJ should go to the ‘pen because we’d rather not have his 5.40 ERA in the rotation.

          I’d take a 3.77 ERA starter over a dominant arm in the bullpen every single day of the week.

          • Will

            I didn’t post in response to you…my post was directed at the thread entry.

            As for Burnett, that’s easy. He has no track record in the bullpen, nor does he have an innings limit.

            • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

              Ya, but you forgot the part where Joba has been a starter his whole career except for the 4 months or so he was in the pen between 07 and 08. Dude has 19 career starts and has a pretty dominant line. It’s not about having 5 guys in the rotation that can just “get it done”. With the argument you present, you say that you’re okay with being a run or three down in the 6th as long as the Yankees have a dominant arm in the bullpen. This is why the B-Jobber argument is so freakin’ flawed. You say you would rather have Joba’s replacement(Wang/Hughes etc) be in the rotation and not be as dominant as long as they get to use Joba once every 3 days for one inning. It’s just stupid, plain and simple. 5 or 6 innings out of Joba that can give the Yankees a better chance to win games is what you take. Not being down early but hoping the bats come back because we have a dominant pen.

              • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

                Well not once every 3 days for one innings, obv he would be used more than that. But, you get the point.

              • Will

                That’s not my argument at all. Now, let me point out the flaws in yours:

                1) Joba as a starter ignores the problem of his innings limit. How do you propose to deal with that if Joba has 150 innings in August?

                2) Hughes and Wang are not rotation filler. Either one could come close to approximating what Joba can do in the rotation. What they do not have a track record of is providing dominant late-game relief.

                3) 5 innings of Joba as a starter is not necessarily better than having him throw approximately 4 innings each week as a reliever. The bottom line is that if you remove Joba’s 5.5 innings from the rotation, they’ll go to someone like Hughes. If you remove his 4 innings from the pen, they go to someone like Veras. I trust Hughes a lot more than Veras.

                • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

                  Eh, I see what you’re saying. But it is still not the best thing to do for the team long term. That’s a given. Not many pens have quality arms of Joba’s level in their pen. KC – Soria? Is that comparable? Wasting Joba’s talent in the pen for the good of 2009 is a joke and can fuck up his development. If you shuffle him around, that can lead to an injury also. Pens are built by putting arms in tthere and seeing if they could stick. Let me say something else, though. For that one game every 5 days – I trust Joba more than Hughes. I will always take my chances with the better starter on the hill, especially if by not doing so i have to move an arm like Joba to the pen. Fuck that, because if he doesn’t reach his innings. The Yanks will be going through this again. You will hear how he is 24 and didn’t prove himself as a starter. I’m tired of that, I want ace potential on the hill.

                  Having 3-4 ace potential starters with no innings limits in the rotation for 2010 and beyond for 5 years(CC, A.J., Joba, Hughes)>>>>>>>>>putting Joba in the pen in 09 to “help” the team win 2 ballgames cause I would imagine that is what his replacement value would be.

                • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt ACTY

                  win 2 ballgames cause I would imagine that is what his replacement value would be.

                  Mariano was the best reliever last year, right? He had a 3.1 WAR. Andy Pettitte’s mediocre season netted the Yankees 4.4 WAR. Jaime Moyer and Joe Blanton were also more valuable than Brad Lidge. Think about that.

                  And, yes, 5 innings of Joba once a week is better than 4 innings of him spread over 2-4 games.

                • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

                  Bullshit!

                  That’s not what my eyes tell me. Lidge was perfect in save opps and his team won the W.S.!! All I need to know, geek.

            • Trapped In El Duque’s Glove

              Fair enough, but you replied to my post so I could only assume you were talking in specifics and not generalities.

              Joba didn’t have a track record in the bullpen….until they put him in the bullpen. So, again, it’s rather a circular argument to suit your own position.

        • BklynJT

          It’s good that Joba settled down after the first inning, but at some freaking point, we need to win his damn games, especially against the RedSox. Going 0 for 5 against them disgusting.

          • Chris

            In 2006, the Yankees started out 1-4 against the Sox. They ended up winning the season series 10-8. It’s still early, we’ve had a lot of injuries… it will get better.

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph Pawlikowski

              That series in August might have been the greatest I’ve ever witnessed.

              • Rick in Boston

                Boston felt like a funeral after that. It was great.

              • V

                That series was AWESOME.

              • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt ACTY

                That was probably my favorite sports moment of ’06.

  • Bo

    You don’t want Joba in the pen? Then you better hope Cashman gets a few reliable arms quickly because that is where this train is headed. Like it or not it’s what is going to happen. If Wang is healthy and back they will just move Joba to the pen and leave Hughes in the rotation. I just doubt that they will send Hughes down at this point especially since hes showed hes made some adjustments.

    • JobaWockeeZ

      Which is why Cashman said the contrary and said that Joba is needed in the rotation more than ever.
      Please you’re not Cashman, you don’t know what’s going on int eh organization.

      • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

        IF Joba is moved to the pen this year simply because the pen is struggling and if they happen to keep him there. I will lose a ton of confidence in the Yankees organization. That bullshit O Connor article. Scout said “Joba is not a pitcher, he’s a thrower”. Stfu you anonymous scout. Man, that kind of stuff can grind my gears.

        • steve (different one)

          “Joba is not a pitcher, he’s a thrower”

          how can anyone say that after last night?

          4 pitches working, dropping hooks and changes….unreal.

          by this definition the only pitcher in baseball is Jaime Moyer.

          • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

            Mysteries of life, steve (different one). Mysteries of life.

    • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt ACTY

      No. Joba will not go to the pen. If Hughes isn’t pitching well upon Wang’s return, send him down. If Chamberlain isn’t pitching well upon Wang’s return, send him down. His development as a starter is more important than the year 2009. Putting Chamberlain in the ‘pen at ANY point this season will open his arm up to injury because he’ll be getting off an established rhythm and be pitching on irregular rest. It’s a bad idea all around.

  • Stormrider6

    Just something I looked up… D-Rob vs. Bailey

    http://tinyurl.com/d5vkxq

    Probably shouldn’t have been nibbling with a “hitter” like Bailey at the plate, but he was getting squeezed.

    • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

      i was hoping he’d just drop the nasty hook on him for 3 straight!

  • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

    Seriously though, will John Kruk ever give in?

  • Axl

    Is our team really this bad? 5 losses to the Red Sox? 2 sweeps? Back to .500. Yes I get it. The injuries, the bullpen, Tex hitting under .200, our starters getting rocked around…and we’re still a .500 ballclub. That doesn’t change the fact that we look genuinely anemic out there. There’s no life on anybody’s face! They strike out with the bases loaded and it’s “whatever….”

    Something needs to be done. The pitching stinks and they’re healthy. The hitters that are healthy can’t hit in the big spot. If the pitching is on…the hitting is off. If the hitting is on…the pitching is off.

    One week the team looks great…the next week they look like the worst team in the game. Who the hell are these guys?!?!? WHAT’S HAPPENING?!?!?

    • Nady Nation

      “The pitching stinks and they’re healthy.”

      Bruney, Marte, and Wang are all on the DL. Breathe, Axl. It will get better.

      • Axl

        I was talking about Sabathia, Burnett, Pettitte, Joba, Hughes, literally anybody who steps on the mound. NOBODY has been consistent. EVERYONE has had a few bad showings already. Why? How can an ENTIRE pitching staff, filled with perennial stars who do well, ALL perform inconsistent and poorly all at the same time?? There has to be a reason…

  • Axl

    A TALE OF TWO JOBA’S? TRY “A TALE OF TWO TEAMS”. We’re good for 4 days and then stink again for 6… It’s getting pretty frustrating…

    • http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00mwbIM15ofMv/340x.jpg Mike Pop

      Yes. It’s called a baseball season.

      • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt ACTY

        +1.

      • Axl

        Yeah, it’s called a baseball season when you’re the Royals and don’t have the same resources. After the off season we’ve had…winning 4 and losing a bunch immediately after in a cycle isn’t exactly acceptable.

  • thurdonpaul

    yes its a long season, it will get better
    can someone tell me what +1 means tks
    im new to this site, btw you guys are great

    • http://actyankee.blogspot.com Matt ACTY

      It means you agree w/the post. For future reference so it doesn’t trip you up:

      IETC: I enjoyed this comment
      ICWUDT: I see what you did there

      • thurdonpaul

        matt, thank you

  • JimT

    Bob Watson has to suspend Joba Chamberlin for his throwing at Jason Bay last night. I know that the Yankee pom pom wavers on this bolg are going to protest but it was obvious that Chamberlin threw at Bay. Watson needs to show a bit of courage and be consistent here.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

      Come on, Jim. Why do Red Sox fans cry about this stuff after winning five in a row from the Yanks?

      How many times was Pedro or Curt suspended from throwing at someone? No one on either team took the HBP as personal. In a one-run game with a runner already on base, I think 9 out of 10 fans would say that Joba had no intention of hitting Bay. The remaining one would be found in the Back Bay.

      • JimT

        It doesn’t have anything to do with the recent record of the two teams. Rather there is a perception that Bob Watson is too close to the Yankees and isn’t consistent in his dealings.

        The Perdro / Curt debate isn’t relevent because the rules of engagement have changed. MLB has taken a much harder line on pitchers throwing at batters since then. A more relevent example is Josh Beckett. If Beckett is going to get suspended for throwing at Bobby Abreu (and he should have been)then Joba has to be subjected to the same disipline for throwing at and HITTING a player that had just hit a HR off of him.

        And although I don’t live in the Back Bay I guess I’m one of those 10%ers. I do think he was throwing at Bay. An argument that will fall on partisan lines.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

          • JimT

            Ben, I like that. Just might ask to borrow this from time to time.

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

              Go for it! I couldn’t resist :)

    • Klemy

      He “has” to do no such thing.

    • Tank the Frank (formerly just “Frank”)

      I loved the HBP. And if Big Tex happened to be murdering the Sox every time up at the plate, you would have no problem with Beckett putting one between his numbers.

      I think that showed a lot of maturity by Joba. No more pitches up around the head. You throw it at the thigh/butt or between the numbers and move on. It’s part of baseball.

      And I do think it was intentional personally. Joba was putting his pitches anywhere he wanted after the 1st inning. I don’t think he all of a sudden lost it when Jason Bay happened to be at the plate. We just all have to accept that that’s the kind of pitcher Joba is going to be. He was all fired up last night.

      But in that situation, with the location of the pitch, there’s no way you can suspend him or otherwise reprimand him IMO.

      • Tank the Frank (formerly just “Frank”)

        I should clarify… the reason I think it was intentional is because of Joba’s youth and personality. As he matures, he’ll learn to pick his spots a little better.

        But last night…. man… I’ve never seen a pitcher act like that. He was in the zone. He was on a different planet. I can’t imagine the adrenaline that was running around in him. So even in a one-run game… I think he thought he could put Bay on and go right after the next hitter and strike him out.

  • JP

    I think this game answered any lingering doubts as to whether Joba belongs in the starting rotation.

    And although Hughes was perhaps mediocre the other night, he did have good stuff and was able to strike out Youkilis. It may take 2-3 years, but if these two pitchers stay healthy the Yankees will have two very good, front line starting pitchers, if they have the wisdom to let them develop.

    Joba, and other pitchers, should throw at hitters, occasionally. It’s part of the game. Pitchers need to do some things to put some doubt in hitters’ heads. Making them uncomfortable up there is part of that.

    • Tank the Frank (formerly just “Frank”)

      Let’s all just thank Mo that the media doesn’t get to decide how to develop our pitchers.

      It makes us all angry to hear them spew their nonsense. But we have to remember their opinion really amounts to fuckall. They have no sway. It changes nothing.

  • Peedlum

    Just want to share a response I sent to a B-Jobber red sux fan acquaintance of mine who wrote “The Yanks are screwing this all up… Their bullpen is in desperate need of a 2 inning bridge guy and Joba would fit that roll perfectly. To trot him out as a starter and only get 6 innings out of him is a recipe for many late inning losses… …but I really don’t care and enjoy seeing the Yanks make a dumb decision.”

    how exactly would that have helped yesterday? the alternative would be to start who?

    i maintain my position that anyone who thinks joba should be in the pen doesn’t understand the importance of starting pitching and is just following the lead of the media shepherds who make their living by stirring up straw-men controversies. eventually joba will learn to keep his pitch counts manageable by getting the walks down or he will become a closer–that’s the 2 possibilities. my position that he should be a starter was only strengthened by yesterday’s jekkyl and hyde outing where after the 1st he made a premier offense look like a high school team. yes he ran out of pitches–but he wasted a bunch in the 1st and he’d probably have gone 6 if he didn’t go out of his way to plunk bay in the 5th. seems like joba woke back up yesterday–striking out 12 of 14 certainly has that feeling to me–also note he was throwing 96 in the 6th inning.

    my position is further buoyed by the fact that i can locate only one game where joba would have been in the 7th and/or 8th where the yankees coughed up the lead and one other game where it might have mattered.

    april 12 v. KC, the royals scored 3 in the 8th off jose veras and phil coke to win 6-4.

    may 2 against the angels girardi kept CC in and he blew the game in the 7th by giving up 4–maybe girardi would have put joba in if he was available, but it seems like he was letting his ace try to work out of a jam–no way to tell.

    the rest of the losses have been blowouts or have been lost before the 7th and 8th innings. and before he got hurt, brian bruney was putting up silly numbers. the bullpen was overextended by wang’s complete failure to pitch with any effect in april and its not yet hit its stride since. there’s clearly still kinks to be worked out. but when the SP’s start to pitch to form, the bullpen will be less exposed. and the way the starting pitching has been, joba wouldn’t have been involved in very many meaningful innings.

  • JimT

    One thought that struck me about last nights game was how large a strike zone both pitchers were given. Less you think that I’m going to complain, I must say that it was refreshing to see a strike zone bigger than a bead box.

    I love well pitched, tight, defensive games. The modern game with a tiny strike zone at times drives me crazy. When the umpire calls strikes the game has so much more flow.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

      The funny thing about the zone last night is that it was large only with left handed batters up. Mike and I think it may have been because of the way the umpire positioned himself. He had a skewed view of the zone.

  • Texeiramvp (JobaCyYoung)/Letsgoyankees-It depends on the blog

    Mystique and Aura-Now dancing across the street.
    And boy do we need them!