May
28

Why listen to Francesa’s B-Jobber rants?

By

Yesterday afternoon, the never-sanguine Mike Francesa got a little hot under the collar when a caller to the FAN dared to use facts and reality to dispute Francesa’s views on Joba Chamberlain. The video — which you can view here — is quite the tour de force. Francesa proves nothing more than the reality that he can scream louder and belittle people all while not proving his controversial and short-sighted view that Joba Chamberlain belongs in the sacred, more-important-than-any-other-inning, 8th.

Meanwhile, another B-Jobber — the RAB-originated term for fans and analysts who want to put the Yanks’ second best starter in the bullpen — offers up more of the same on the YES Network’s homepage. Jerome Preisler wrote a fact-free piece on why Chamberlain should be relieving. His argument is full of the same old same old. He overvalues a reliever and falls into the confirmation bias trap. Joba looked great as a reliever when he came up, and his success as a very young starter in the AL East notwithstanding, he should be moved back to the pen.

“It is now time to end the debate about Joba Chamberlain, to stop equivocating about his Yankee future to the detriment of the team. Joba should be returned to the bullpen’s eighth-inning setup role and groomed to replace Mariano Rivera as its closer. He is Rivera’s best, and perhaps only, realistic successor,” Preisler writes in one paragraph. You quickly get the point.

Now, everyday, Joe, Mike, and I field e-mails from Yankee fans shocked at this bullpen blasphemy. Take, for instance, yesterday’s missive from Doug, a hardcore Yankee fan from New Jersey:

Anyways, all these Francesa [listeners] call in all day long and agree with him and feed his ego. The only non “B-jobbers” that get on the air are usually ignorant to the game and rightfully get hung up on in a matter of 30 seconds or so. Rarely do they ever have any intelligent contributions. Myself, I am pretty knowledgable but lack the fiery personality it takes to argue with that slob. I am more the passive type to just let someone like that go off on a tangent and let him sound like the prick he is. When I do call, though, I usually cannot get through or get tired of waiting. I think once you disclose that you disagree with the B-jobber mentality, you are put on hold without ever actually having a chance of airtime.

What I ask of you is to make some sort movement towards totally getting the phone lines on WFAN jammed up with those who can make a viable argument for Joba the starter. You just have to have the intellect to get on and be able to argue your points with backup. You guys have the power and the right communication channel to put this jerk in his place for once. He is more pompous and arrogant than ever now that he has his own show and I can’t take it any more. The people of NY, NYC, the tri-state area, YES viewers, and Yankees fans far and wide deserve better than this clown and his stupid self-centered ideas.

I couldn’t agree more with Doug, and I know he’s not alone. Long-time RAB reader Jamal G. is frequently facepalming over Francesa’s rants, and our Twitter followers often sputter at Francesa’s lunacy.

But better than clogging the phones, I have a better idea: Just stop listening. I know sports fans love to get riled up over disagreements; that’s what makes the comments to many of our posts so entertaining and enjoyable. But when someone shows a complete unwillingness to open up to the other side, when someone starts ranting about how callers and listeners are just flat-out wrong if they disagree with him…well, we should all just stop listening.

In the end, Francesa, Preisler and their ilk won’t go away. On the day Joba wins his 100th game as a starter, these guys will still be saying he should be in the bullpen. But the Yankees are immune to the lunacy. They have not wavered in their belief that Joba, always a starter before the Bronx, will remain in the rotation, and those are the voices to which we should be listening.

Categories : Rants

238 Comments»

  1. Mattingly's Love Child says:

    I couldn’t even finish reading that article….

  2. LiveFromNewYork says:

    It is really ridiculous. I really think that the Yankees have to say there is no debate. He’s staying in the rotation and just STFU.

    The thing about Francesa is that people who used to like him (like me) now hate him because of this nonsense. His insanity has caused me to lose all respect for him. I can’t listen to a word he says anymore.

    • Bob Stone says:

      Amen – I feel exactly the same way – Used to not only like him, but respected him. Now . . . I can’t stand listening to him. Please bring back the Mad Dog (I know that’s not possible) or at least get him a partner to tone him down.

    • Completely agree with you. I think a statement from Cashman or Girardi saying that he isn’t going anywhere would shut everyone up (except for Francesa). Unfortunately, it’s unrealistic.

  3. Mike M says:

    The first line of the article references Papelbon as “An 18th round draft pick in 2004, he was a right-handed, flame-throwing starter with an attitude”

    Wasn’t Papelbon a closer in college and not a starter?

  4. Mike HC says:

    These talking heads could care less if what they say makes any sense. They get evaluated based on how many people are listening. Bottom line. They don’t care about being right or listening to rational arguments. Francesca gets what he wants when people blog and talk about the show. Jamming the phone lines at WFAN is exactly what Francesca is aiming for. Yelling on the top of his lungs that the Yanks are idiots, that callers are idiots etc… all elicit a reaction from people. It is not whether people agree, or like you, it is whether they are listening and reacting, no matter what the reaction.

    • Bob Stone says:

      But many of us are not going to listen anymore because his outlandish and ridiclulous attempt to gain listenership is driving away knowledgeable fans.

      • Ian says:

        unfortunately that’s true.
        i always used to enjoy listening to him, and still do during NFL season with his Mike’d Up show on sunday mornings. I’ll still be all over that, but from a day to day basis during baseball season (which is pretty much all year round) I can’t do it.

        Mad Dog’s show on Sirius is 100x better

  5. TurnTwo says:

    It always amazes me that as the biggest media market and sports market in the world, all we have to listen to in afternoon drive radio is a mix between Francessa and Kay.

    We cant do any better than that?

    • Mike HC says:

      Since I don’t listen to any talk show radio, who are the top guys. Mad Dog on Sirius? Is there an undisputed number one?

      • The one who signs his name -Scott says:

        Fran is the king and has been for ages…. Satellite doesn’t do ratings the same way terrestrial radio does, according to Dog….

        -Scott

        • Mike HC says:

          I don’t buy that for a second. I have a feeling they know exactly who is doing better and how many people are listening to each. I have a feeling that that is Dog’s way of deflecting the question.

          • Ian says:

            regardless of the ratings, Dog is a much better radio host and his show is 100x a better listen. He’s not an arrogant, ignorant idiot. Nothing worse than arrogance AND ignorance. Dog at least is man enough to admit when he’s wrong, and he’s willing to let the listener speak and will acknowledge when he learns something that he previously didn’t know. And he is very open to changing his mind and his opinion on something or someone when a caller brings up a good point that he may have not been aware of.

            All these things are a logical impossibility with Francesa, since his ego won’t allow himself to be wrong, and he won’t even give the caller the time of day to prove him wrong because once he feels threatened he’ll just talk over you then just hang up and go back to listening to the people that agree with everything he says and just coddle and feed his ego.

            That calls for a great radio show. Only allow callers in who nod in agreement to you for 5 and a half hours. /sarcasm

          • usty says:

            Satellite really doesn’t. The companies can offer surveys and monitor who listens online and call volume to the phone numbers but your XM/Sirius receivers are one way. They have no way of knowing which channel you’re actually tuned to in a car.

  6. The one who signs his name -Scott says:

    Not listening is the easy way out. Someone who speaks well (a lawyer type perhaps should debate Francessa and educate him. While I’m not in the “B-jobbers” camp yet, at what point should we all be? And if there is a certain time frame, why not tell that if not to Fran – then to his vast audience. If I was in my car I could listen to Dog….lol

    -Scott

    • Look at it this way: Kerry Wood wasn’t a reliever until the time he was 30 (H/T TSJC). The Yankees should show the same patience w/Chamberlain, IMO.

    • While I’m not in the “B-jobbers” camp yet, at what point should we all be?

      Realistically, by the time Joba hits free agency. As a starter, Joba has a career ERA of 3.25. While I scrubbed any pitchers who started and relieved from this list, those are pitchers in their age 23 season or younger with at least 120 IP as starters. Joba as a starter alone would be 10th on that list, better than some impressive names. It is far, far too early to write him off as a starter by any means.

      • Chris says:

        Whenever I see these lists, I am struck by how few of the pitchers with early success in their careers end up with the careers that you would expect. Out of the top 10 on that list, only Mussina and Hudson ended up with solid careers and avoided significant injury…

    • Someone who speaks well (a lawyer type perhaps should debate Francessa and educate him.

      The problem is, Francesa has a long and well established track record of shouting over and hanging up on those who would “debate” him. I could go toe to toe with him, but it’s futile, because he’ll censor me and the ratio of him talking to me talking would be 90% to 10%.

  7. Nelson says:

    It’s ridiculous that Francesca says repeatedly that no ones ever heard of Porcello and his last 5 starts have been better. There are actually plenty of people (esp on this website) that have heard of him, considering he was the guy that went to the Tigers the pick before the Yankees drafted Brackman. And where does Mike even get 5 starts from? Did he just pick it out of a hat? He’s become insane…

    • TurnTwo says:

      5 starts is what they tell him to say.

    • Mike HC says:

      Mike’s ratings have taken hit since Mad Dog left. He has to get the attention of the people and becoming “insane” is probably the only way he is capable of doing that. There are better ways, but he is probably not capable of doing it the right way, if there is a “right” way. Ratings are rating are ratings.

      • TurnTwo says:

        maybe thats why the rumors were swirling about Max Kellerman being the brains to Francessa’s muscle?

        • Let's Talk About TEX Baby says:

          Although Kellerman is a bit pompous for my taste, I am sorry that his show got canned by 1050 because he was the only guy who did high-level baseball talk on New York radio. Definitely better than hearing a 4-hour debate over whether Jose Reyes and David Wright have “heart.”

    • No one’s heard of Porcello?! He was the #1 prep pitcher in that year’s draft, wasn’t he?

    • Reggie C. says:

      WHo knows if Francesca has been following Porcello this year or not, but Porcello’s last 5 starts are pretty damn good considering he’s only 21. Kid’s thrown 30 innings in that span giving up only 5 ER.

      • JP says:

        But Porcello’s numbers are irrelevant in terms of evaluating Joba Chamberlain as a starting pitcher.

        Anyone who believes that starting pitching and relief pitching are two widely divergent, alien skills is silly. This is the premise Francesa operates on – that Joba is killer as a relief pitcher, but “neutered” as a starter.

        Pitching is roughly half the game. You need your best pitchers pitching as much as possible to maximize your chances of winning.

        ANY pitcher, anyone, is more valuable as a starter than as a reliever, provided they have the physical ability to “make it” as a starter. On the flip side, ANY pitcher, including Maddux, Clemens, Halliday, etc., would have better numbers as a relief pitcher than a starter. I don’t need to explain why this is so.

        Joba has given the Yankees 40-something innings of sub-4.00 ERA pitching this year. If he were a relief pitcher, he’d be at about a third to half that, maybe, now, and would be maybe at 1.50 if he’s doing very well. Someone explain how the hypothetical relief innings would impact the team more and lead to more wins than the starting innings?

        “Well JP, that’s easy – close game, 8th inning, and Joba strikes out the side. Bring Albaladejo in, and we lose! It’s that simple!”

        Not. How about when he comes in and fails? If he single handedly is responsible for winning the games when he’s successful, then you have to blame him for the loss when he fails, right?

        How often does one reliever do the job, only to have another reliever blow it later on?

        But again, the appropriate thing is to make the correct comparison. Joba as a starter has limited opposing teams’ runs as effectively as anyone on the team. He is under a pitch and innings restriction, so he can’t pitch as much as the other starters, but he’s just as effective, or moreso. Over the last 4 weeks or so, how do you think his starts would have gone with Wang starting, and him in the pen?

        I’m preaching to the choir, I know…but ugh it gets me mad.

    • A.D. says:

      Porcello was on the cover of the Times or WSJ sports section one weekend dissecting the gigantic signing bonus.

  8. ledavidisrael says:

    id be down for jobba in the pen as long as he gets 150 innings under his belt..

    • Yes, but you also want to send him to AAA to work on innings. Both of those options minimize what is in effect a limited resource this season.

      • If Joba was pitching more poorly–like 5+ ERA and what not, I’d have no problem with putting him in Scranton to stretch him out while not hurting the big club. But, as he’s pitching at a 116 ERA+ right now, you’ve gotta keep ‘im up.

      • ledavidisrael says:

        na your misunderstanding what i said. I said IF hughes started pitching like his minor league numbers suggest he could. and Wang WAS wang…

        • ledavidisrael says:

          than getting him through 100 minor league innings as quickly as we could and getting him the pen would have the team in the best position. Plus i m not sold that joba is THAT much better than phil..

          • No matter what you do with him after those 100 innings, you’re still wasting what would be 100 above-average Major League innings from Joba by keeping him in the minors. That does absolutely nothing to help the team win.

            • ledavidisrael says:

              Even if phil/wang were giving you the same above average major league innings??
              we are wasting above average major league innings reguardless.

              I m just saying that if phil needs it more at the major league level because he doesnt have the same confidence (due to jobas great start in the bp, or his extra couple mph on his fastball) We should give it to him. and hopefully get him in the pen WHERE WE NEED HELP NOW.

              • How are we “wasting” innings right now or regardless? Your argument doesn’t make any sense. Right now, the Yanks have their five best starters pitching every five days in the Majors, and no one’s limited innings are being wasted by keeping them in AAA.

                • ledavidisrael says:

                  Wang is wasting away in the pen..

                • ledavidisrael says:

                  wang>pettite

                • ledavidisrael says:

                  and i m simply saying that hughes needs major league seasoning. My argument hinges on the fact that those are phil’s needs. and if joba has to pitch in scranton till august and it makes out 2010 roster better. So be it, as long as hughes isnt stinking the joint up.

                • Wang has an ERA north of 20 and has thrown 11 innings over five appearances. In four of those five appearances, he has been shelled. He’s not being wasted in the pen; he’s righting himself. Meanwhile, he’s not on an innings limit so the Yanks can’t waste his innings.

                • Lanny says:

                  Wang isn’t wasting in the pen. He would hurt the team as a starter right now and that’s a little more important.

  9. Jamal G. says:

    You know what/s kinda funny/scary about that video? Mike Francesa completely and totally warps what Alex from Bedminister, NJ said about Joba Chamberlain having one of the five- or six-best ERA’s amongst starters in MLB since his induction into the Yanks’ rotation in 2008. Somehow, Francesa heard the ERA stat and completely misunderstood (purposefully or not) it to meant that Alex was saying that Joba was one of the five- or six-best starting pitchers in MLB today.

    To be honest, I’ve always listened to Francessa and read Bill Madden and George King and Joel Sherman because I’ve always found arrogant ignorance one of the best forms of entertainment – and trust me, there are few people with a public platform in sports that posses such a quality like the previously mentioned. However, how Francesa just completely warped what the caller said literally scared me because I really think the former believes what he heard and not at all what was actually said.

    • Tank the Frank says:

      Yeah I saw that too. The caller was actually trying to base his argument around facts and Francesa intentionally (I believe) warped what he said and started screaming over him so he couldn’t explain his point. Francesa went on for another 10 or 15 minutes after he hung up on the caller screaming about something that wasn’t even the correct point in the first place.

      I was embarrassed for him.

      That’s one way to win an argument. Misrepresent the person’s point to your benefit, scream over the top of him and cut him off so he can’t explain himself or continue his point, and then commence bashing him for 10 minutes for making such a stupid point. Well done.

      • Tank the Frank says:

        Never heard of that term before. Great find.

        • Joey says:

          I had a speech class a few semesters ago with all the logical fallacies (look it up in Wikipedia)

          Interesting stuff, it’s fun when you can use them to point out bullshit by other people, especially MSM types

  10. JobaWockeeZ says:

    Why does Francesa even have his own show? Ugh. Is it too much to ask for a well informed radio talk host?

  11. Tank the Frank says:

    Who didn’t see this coming? It didn’t even take long. It’s only May, and yet Francesa was disgustingly confident that the Yankees would have Joba back in the bullpen by the All-Star break. Really? I think there’s a better chance of you getting up off your chair in the middle of a show and jog your fat ass from Queens to Yankee Stadium. But that’s me.

    What’s that? He’s 23 years old? It’s his first full season in the major leagues as a starter?

    BAH YOU SAY! But it’s already May! He’s not going 7+ innings every time! And his ERA IS FOUR! FOOOUUURRR!!!

    You should have heard this lunatic yesterday talk about Joba having a 3.97 ERA like it benefited his point! I’ve been waiting for a thread like this. I work for YES so I was FORCED to listen to it and I really need to vent. His persistance is what’s so frustrating. He writes off Joba’s dominant starts before he went on the DL and will only focus on what is currently a young, struggling starting pitcher. Joba could DOMINATE in his next three starts, but leave after 4 innings giving up 5 runs in his fourth start and Francesa would be back on the air SCREAMING to get him back in the bullpen.

    • Reggie C. says:

      I’m almost convinced after alittle reflection that Francesca deliberately threw out the 5 game benchmark and Porcello comparison to make Joba look bad.

      In the middle of that rant, Francesca screams: Joba can’t go 5 innings. Francesca definitely knows Joba’s last 2 outings amounted to 4.2 total innings. Is it fair? Heck no.

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      Joba sucks as teh starter! He’s only going 5 or 6 innings!!!!!111!!!

      You know who else is only going 5, 6 or 7 innings, Francesa? AJ Burnett. He only went to the 8th ONCE this year. BURNETT TO TEH 8TH!?!?!?!?!?!?
      No only Joba to teh 8th because that’s when we first saw him there. The lack of facts from Francesa is mind boggling.

    • Tampa Yankee says:

      He brings up Joba’s ERA but fails to see the Hughes’ ERA in 27 career starts is 5.15? Joba’s got 21 starts, and while I don’t have the exact numbers/time to figure it out, I’m sure his ERA is under that.

      • Tom Zig says:

        3.25 ERA as a starter

        2.76 last year
        3.97 this year

      • JP says:

        Francesa operates under the fallacy that starting and relief pitching are distinct “species.” So Joba’s numbers, as a starter, must be compared to his numbers as a reliever, to try to determine what species he is. But Hughes, see, is already been deemed starter species, so it’s ok for him to have crappy numbers and “develop.”

        • Ian says:

          wow. u said it, and you’re absolutely right.
          it’s amazing that so many people eat from his hand and follow this way of thinking. LOL.

          it’s comical, yet frustrating at the same time because we’re all Yankee fans and we have to encounter and deal with these people on a daily basis, and it just gets tiring to deal with the ignorance

  12. Who would have thought the day would have passed that Michael Kay would be the lesser of all evils both on the radio dial and in the broadcast booth.

    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

    • Mike HC says:

      Yea, that is how I look at it with Kay in the booth. I’m not a fan of his, but it is not like there is so much better out there. Whenever I have gotten the chance to listen to other guys, I have never felt that they are such an upgrade over Kay. There may be a couple of guys out there, but none that I have heard. Maybe the Yanks can offer Marv Albert a deal he could not refuse.

    • Didn’t H.G. Wells debunk that?

  13. JobaWockeeZ says:

    Wasn’t Joba a starter in the minor leagues? He claims that Hughes was “made” to be a starter and Joba isn’t. The only damn reason he wants him in the bullpen because we first saw him there. If Joba started as a starter like Hughes and IPK this whole debate would have never effing happened.

  14. TurnTwo says:

    you know what i found most arrogant and silly about his show yesterday?

    how he started off his rant at the beginning of the show by so boldly and confidently saying that everytime he talks about Joba to the pen on the radio, he has a few more and a few more converts each time.

    really?

  15. JP says:

    It’s a shame Francessa is such a blow-hard, because there are so many holes in his reasoning.

    I don’t mind arguing with people who wish to presume that the late innings are “critical.” I don’t agree with them, but I think you have to let that go unchallenged or you never get in the door to argue.

    Francesa kept coming back to comparing Joba as starter to Joba as reliever. Guess what? Put ANY pitcher in the bullpen, and their ERA improves, strikeouts improve, etc. Didn’t we see this with Smoltz?

    The caller, rightfully, was pointing to the fact that Joba, for all his “struggles” as a starter, doesn’t allow many earned runs! He’s inefficient so far, and doesn’t last long, but so what? By many metrics, he’s better than Pettitte and Burnett, already, right now.

    But you can’t win a shouting match with a guy who can turn off your voice at will.

    • Ian says:

      Make sure you point out to all the “converts” and those alike that Roy Halladay, the best pitcher in the sport, at age 23 in 13 starts had a WHIP over 2!!!!!!

  16. Mattingly's Love Child says:

    Because this whole argument is so frustrating, I keep trying to find a logical way that someone could argue that Joba should be in the pen. I feel that maybe there is something that we’re all missing that the other side isn’t intelligent enough to put into words.

    But I still haven’t found it.

    What kills me is that older relatives of mine who have listened to Francesca for years (including my father) have started to believe his nonsense. Everytime I watch a game with them I have this entire debate all over again. It’s enough to make my already receding hairline recede even faster.

    • My dad is a ‘UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE

    • My dad is a ‘UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE B-Jobber.

    • Tampa Yankee says:

      I’ve had a buddy argue that he wants Joba in the pen because Joba has “it” and he has a chance to be a HOF closer because of “it”.

      I still don’t know WTF “it” is.

    • Mike HC says:

      The only logical B-Jobber argument is that it makes the Yanks better in the short term, without thinking of long term at all. If Hughes and Wang can pitch to a below 4 era, then having Joba in the pen will help the team in the short term. I don’t agree with this, because Joba is being groomed as the long term ace, but for this year only, I can see how Joba to the pen will help. Especially playoff time, when only 3-4 starters are needed, having Joba in the pen is a big help. That is not to say that the other starters can’t also be in the bullpen while Joba is in the rotation. As a short term fix, already having 5 effective starters for this year, having Joba in the pen could help. That is the best I can come up with.

      • Mike HC says:

        Come playoff time, in a seven game series, Joba can pitch one to two innings in about five of the games (for arguments sake). That would mean he could get about 5-8 innings of work in each series with the off days. If CC, AJ and Wang/Hughes/Pettitte go into the playoffs as our top three starters, Joba would only get one start anyway, where he would pitch about 5-7 innings. So in that case, he would be pitching the same amount of innings. Of course, if he was a two start series pitcher, it would be far more effective for him to start. It depends on who the Yanks believe are the best guys come playoff time.

    • Tank the Frank says:

      It’s instant gratification. The Yankees have especially impatient fans. Their argument is right in the sense that it MAY help the Yankees win now to have a reliever like Joba in the 8th inning. But as we all know, it’s better long-term to try and develop him into what he projects to be; a front-line starter.

      Joba is not alowed to struggle as a normal 23-year-old would. As soon as he does, the B-Jobbers voice grows louder.

    • Chris says:

      There are logical arguments for him ending up in the pen, but they all require that you see what he can give you as a starter. If he is ineffective or injured as a starter for the next few years, then you move him to the pen.

  17. Jamal G. says:

    Honestly, I know the main goal of a blog is to provide an open platform for people of differing opinions to express their views, but have you guys (Ben, Joe and Mike) ever thought of making an argument for Joba Chamberlain to the bullpen a violation of the RAB Commenter Guidelines?

    Yeah, I know, free country and all, but aren’t there certain instances where a degree of idiocy just can not be tolerated anymore? Is the B-Jobber’s point of view not such a level of idiocy?

    • Mattingly's Love Child says:

      Free speech is not designed to protect the speech we love the most, but instead to protect the speech we hate the most. I would be disappointed if they banned the B-Jobber stuff. It’s their blog, they can do what they like, but part of the draw of this blog is that there is discussion about baseball on all sides. And its not like there are tons of B-Jobbers posting here. They would get shit from Tommie all the time and peace out anyways.

    • Joey says:

      Yea, only people around here that mention it are usually trolls just trying to get a rise out of people. I think I’ve seen one person try to logically argue it, maybe around the beginning of the offseason. Don’t really see it too much anymore though

      • Jamal G. says:

        Yeah, that’s the driving force behind it: pushing away the trolls. I’m saying it sort of tongue-in-cheek, but it’s gotten just horrible.

    • mustang says:

      This would be doing the same thing that Francesca does when he hangs up on people without even listening to their point.

      • I agree with this. However, I have no problem kicking out people who repeatedly make asses of themselves. If you can present your point in a calm, cogent manner, I have no problem even if I vehemently disagree. Act like an asshole, and there will be problems.

        • mustang says:

          Totally agree ,but I think you guys do a great job of policing this and i think most people would just agree to disagree rather then take things that far. At least that what i do.

    • Tom Zig says:

      I love when people point to Papelbon as a reason why Joba should be in the bullpen.

      Papelbon has been a reliever in college, yet the Red Sox tried to convert him into a starter. Why? Because starting pitching is always more valuable than a reliever

  18. dino says:

    #1- Joba as starter = 21 starts, 3.25 era, 9.8K per 9IP

    #2- in 2003 the marlins won the WS because of STARTING PITCHING. their bullpen had the likes of urbina and looper closing. nuff said.

    #3- Lohud blog http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....mes-no-no/

    #4- see number 1

    #5- see number 4

    #6- u get the point

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      You want to know what Francesa said yesterday?

      “Starting pitching does not win games!!! The Bullpen does!!!”

      I paraphrased it maybe but that was his main point.

      • dino says:

        yeah, i watched in 03 when beckett and pavano (vomit) essentially beat the yanks themselves….raise your hand if you want a dominant starter for the next 10 years who eats up innings or a guy who records 3 outs a few times a week.

      • JP says:

        It’s the Larussa fallacy. If you create a system where you use 4 pitchers where you once used only 2, you have doubled your chances of failure.

  19. Lance says:

    Pete Abe should call in to Francesca and lay down this gem:

    “Tuesday night, assorted people went into a panic and decided he needed to go back to the bullpen. This would be like saying that because you caught a cold, you need to call Dr. Kevorkian.”

  20. Steve S says:

    I have to say becareful. I might have just committed career suicide. I was in a lunch meeting this afternoon and the conversation got started, normally when all the partners are at these meetings I keep to myself, as the lowly associate. However, once this debate got started I couldnt help but jump in. I essentially called two senior partners, one of them named, crazy for suggesting Joba in the bullpen.

    This is becoming a serious problem, a serious problem.

    The only thing to do, is try and educate people and simply make Francesa the lone voice that becomes easier to ignore. Talk radio is for simpletons, if we join together and simply educate people, talk radio has the potential to become something great. It may cost us our jobs, it may cost our freedoms, but it will finally end the nuisance of Mike Francesca.

    • usty says:

      Or maybe they were impressed by the way you presented your argument and will make you a partner. Glass half full.

  21. He’s doing it again, pumping the whole heir to Mo thing and saying that the Yankees can’t develop pitchers and have no eye for talent.

  22. mustang says:

    I like to throw something else out there. I think this goes a little deeper then the Joba debate with Francesa. Francesa has never like the idea of baseball bloggers he has gone as far as saying that is form of communication should be censored to a certain point. I don’t think, with so many young interns around him, that the strong bloggers sentiments of having Joba be starter has escape him and maybe this why he has chosen such a foolishly strong stand on this issue. Because even Francesa understands that the only way to make a truly strong arguement is to at the very least acknowledge the other side.
    I maybe wrong but in a lot ways I think Mr. Francesa feels threaten by the Internet, which is ironic because if I remember correctly that’s the way, most of the media felt about Mike and Mad Dog when first came on the scene.

  23. Chris says:

    It is now time to end the debate about Joba Chamberlain, to stop equivocating about his Yankee future to the detriment of the team.

    What I don’t understand about this quote is that all of the equivocating comes from the media. The Yankees (as far as I can tell) are 100% committed to him being a starter. I had a fried ask why the Yankees can’t define a role for him and leave him in that role. I had to point out that that’s exactly what they did…

  24. JohnnyC says:

    It’s disappointing that YES decided to simulcast Francesa rather than develop an afternoon talk show of their own. With the decided superiority of YES’s ratings over any of the other regional sports networks, they can afford to come up with something original. There is also the irony of YES paying rights fees to WFAN after literally more than a decade of sniggering, sophomoric “crack committee” type coverage of the Yankees by almost all of their on-air talent, even Sir Sominex, Richard “Dick” Neer.

  25. JP says:

    I have no stats to back this up, but my recollection of 2007 was that Joba was absolutely lights out his first time through the league, but eventually teams began to hit him. Our memory (or Francesa’s memory) may be of a guy with a 0.80 ERA and 12k/9, but anyone who thinks that’s what he’d do every season is insane. Look at Papelbon…everyone eventually gets hit some, blows some leads, blows some saves.

    But to get back to the point of your blog post, I disagree on ignoring Francesa. I think it’s incumbent on all of us to argue, to protest, against guys like Francesa. The caller, while he had good points, also was quick to take Francesa’s bait, raise his voice, and participate in a shouting match. I still think you have to engage ignorant people with influence, like Francesa, and do your best to correct them. One of you guys who has a head full of stats and can think fast – TSJC, or the bloggers – really should call into Francesa.

    • Mike HC says:

      Francesca does not want to be corrected. He wants to have a yelling match. It is not controversail to agree with Joba as starter. That does not get him more listners and RAB would not devote a blog post to him. Claiming Joba should be in the pen gets people listening. I don’t think you guys are giving Francesca enough credit. He knows what will get a reaction and what won’t. He is no different than Lanny, or the other guys here. They write/say things just for the reaction, not for the validity of the statement.

      • JP says:

        Maybe. But you’re presuming alot. No doubt he wants callers and ratings, but I don’t think you could argue as forcefully and passionately as Francesa does if you didn’t really believe in the position. You’re right that he doesn’t want to be corrected, maybe (who does), but I don’t think he’s saying is only for the reaction. He definitely believes his argument is right.

  26. Jack P says:

    Hahahah someone just called Francesca a “closet red sox fan” on his show… great stuff.

    • JohnnyC says:

      This is not beyond the pale. For someone who claims to be a Yankees fan, he shows a great deal of love for Red Sox propaganda. I’ve been suspicious of his alleged Yankees bona fides for a while now. Years of working with Mad Dog and for WFAN can warp anyone’s sensibilities.

      • Lanny says:

        Yeah, you argue a different Yankee point than someone and you get branded a Sox fan. Now thats intelligent debating.

  27. Frank Fernandez says:

    Get real. Joba has been a mediocre starter thus far. And that’s being charitable.

    “Out of the 118 major-league pitchers who have thrown at least 40 innings, Chamberlain’s 1.57 WHIP ranks 101st and his .383 opponents’ on-base percentage ranks 112th.”

    http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....688.column

    His fastball velocity is down and his location has been way off. 46K’s and 25 walks…not even a 2:1 ratio. Happy with that, in addition to the unsightly peripherals and the inability to provide any length? Instead of high-fiving yourselves over how smart you are to oppose moving Joba to the pen, you should start asking yourselves why his overall performance has gone totally south this year.

    • Wow. Linking to a Baumbach column to make your point. Desperate much? A.J. Burnett hasn’t been much better. Should we move him to the 7th? Imagine A.J./Joba/Mo for three innings every game.

      Here’s a newsflash: If his velocity is down now in the rotation, it won’t magically be better in the pen. That’s not hard to understand.

      If you don’t understand why the Yankees are and should be committed to keeping Joba in the rotation, then you simply don’t understand the value of above-average starting pitcher. It’s that simple.

      • Frank Fernandez says:

        So much supercilious nonsense, so little time. Come back to me in late Spetember and/or the postseason when Joba is in the pen, because that’s where he will be. Just about every thing you said in this thread will have been debunked by then.

        • I like how you respond to an actual argument with some warrantless haughty superiority. If you truly believe Joba will be moved out of the rotation and into the pen for any reason other than an innings limit this year, I pity your ignorance.

          • Frank Fernandez says:

            It will be because of his innings cap and you and all the other fanboys here will be squealing like little kids when he comes in to save our bacon in the 8th inning of decisive games.

            The plan is to have our cake and eat it too, in case you haven’t figured it out. They want to develop him as a starter and they want a ring this year. They know they can’t win without him in the pen with the team they have right now, so in the pen he will be when it matters most. In the meantime, keep up with the false debates and pretending you know better.

            • Not that I think you’re wrong, because the Yankees could certainly move him to the pen when he approaches his innings cap, but: “pretending you know better?” I’m sorry buddy, but you’ve done that all day long. I mean “can’t win without him in the pen”? That’s the definition of thinking you know better.

              • Frank Fernandez says:

                They can’t win it all with this pen…that’s clear, isn’t it? The choice is to either overpay for a Euston Street or go in-house for an 8th inning solution. It’ll be the latter, and it won’t be Mark Melancon who they’ll be banking on in crunch time.

            • Ian says:

              Question.

              How many games have the Yankees bullpen blown this year (meaning had a lead in the 8th and then given up the lead only to eventually lose the game)?

              Then ask yourself. If Joba’s spot in the rotation was given to Wang, based on what we’ve seen from Wang, do you think we would have more, the same, or less total team wins this year?

              I only ask because the common consensus is that our bullpen sucks and can’t be trusted and is the reason we’re not an elite team in the standings. Keep in mind I’m only speaking about THIS year solely and which role for Joba is more important for this team to win games NOW (not for the future).

    • JP says:

      And you should ask yourself how, if he is having so much trouble avoiding walks, and is suffering in his velocity, how he is going to be effective pitching in the 8th inning of close games?

      You cite only the statistics which support your point. Look at his statistics v. the other Yankee starters. Look at his ERA+, since he has been a starter…

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      You that Joba might even be worse in the bullpen considering in his 1st inning woes?

    • andrew says:

      Pretty amazing that even with his crappy peripherals, WHIP and walk totals, he still has a sub-4.00 ERA! I can’t wait till he figures out the control issues. There’s no telling how good he can be.

      • Frank Fernandez says:

        Yeah…except even you would have a pretty ERA if you got yanked at the first sign of trouble after the first 4-5 innings because your innings are capped.

        • JackC says:

          All right, putting my head in the lion’s mouth here. I actually don’t know how I feel about the Joba issue. I think both sides have valid issues. I’m a little surprised at the unwavering certitude both sides seem to display on the topic. I think the points about Joba’s 1st inning issues and WHIP magically going away in the pen are important. But, is not at least POSSIBLE that some of those issues may at least lessen if he comes out guns blazing for an inning rather than try to cobble together a way to get him to see the 6th inning as a starter?

          I think ultimately I’m not as convinced as many of you seem to be about the interchangeability between bullpen and the rotation. Every pitcher you hear from seems to argue they are clearly related but nonetheless distinct skill sets. Sabrematricians (there’s absolutely no way I’ve spelled that even close to correctly) scoff at this, but to totally discount the psychology of the game (the heartbeat, to quote Joe Torre) seems as ultimately fatuous as throwing numbers out the window completely.

  28. Jacob says:

    I don’t live in New York and have never listened to Francesa before. The only knowledge that I had about him is what I read on here and I have often wondered how deserving he was of the venom spewed his way. I now see and understand exactly what everyone is talking about. I’d like to keep ranting about how awful that 30 seconds I spent listening to him was, but I’m really at a loss for words. My sympathy to anyone and everyone that has to be subjected to him on anything more than an extremely, bordering on non-existent, basis.

    • A.D. says:

      I don’t live in New York and have never listened to Francesa before.

      I recommend keeping it that way.

  29. Jake H says:

    I’ve never listened to that guy before. I don’t live in NY so I don’t get the NY talk radio. What a joke thou. Joba should be a starter until he proves he can’t do the job. I know that it’s hard to see the flashes of brilliant stuff and then see a stinker but that is what happens. The kid is young, very good and has more then 2 pitches. That is what makes a starter along with keeping velocity over the course of a game.

  30. The one who signs his name -Scott says:

    Is there not one person here who is an eloquent speaker, that can set Fran-man straight?

    -Scott

    • Tank the Frank says:

      No. He won’t change his point of view. But I sure can make him look silly. I guarantee it.

  31. JohnnyC says:

    You cannot “debate” a talk show host, whether on radio or TV. That is the essence of the art form: he can cut you off anytime he wants. There is no equal time or fair play on any of these shows, sports or political. Ben is right, the only way to shut him up is simply throw his ratings into the toilet. When he stops making money for his network or station, he gets to do what Bill O’Reilly had to do for a couple of years in the mid-90′s after he was fired from Inside Edition…make believe he’s taking graduate courses at an Ivy League school and creating a more saleable persona. Who knows, Francesa might make a comeback as a the sports version of Glenn Beck.

  32. Drew says:

    Heh, As I log onto RAB for the first time today, I see the headline and laugh. I have Francessa on my television explaining and taking calls on why Joba is an eighth inning guy. Ugh.. will the madness ever end!?

  33. Garry says:

    I just love how the pro-starter Joba people act as though the pro-relief Joba people are factless, baseless, idiots. The stats are obvious, the potential is obvious, and of course it would make total sense for Joba to be starter.

    But if Wang, Hughes, and Joba are all performing in a month, I’d rather utilize all 3 of them, as opposed to sending Hughes back down to the minors. Have we not forgotten that Hughes is also supposed to be a front-line ace like everyone thinks Joba is supposed to be? Why is it ok to stunt Hughes growth but not Joba’s? While Joba may seem more impressive, it’s only because they are different style pitchers. Hughes needs major league starting rotation work to improve.

    And why is having a lights out reliever so unimportant? Every team that has won a championship in the past 15 years has had a solid bullpen.

    We all recognize that Mariano Rivera is the most important Yankee this decade, the lynchpin of the dynasty, and one of the best Yankees of all time. Yet no one seems to concerned about finding his replacement? Joba could easily be his replacement. Is that such a bad thing?

    I’d argue Mariano Rivera was and is more important than Roger Clemens, David Cone, Andy Pettitte, Jimmy Key, David Wells, etc, etc, etc, etc all every were to this organization.

    Mariano Rivera came up a starter, he got moved to the pen. Was that wrong? Was Mariano Rivera wasted pulling 8th inning duty behind Wetteland? I don’t think so. Had Wetteland not left the team, he’d have pulled 8th inning duty for another season or two beyond that.

    Why is all of this ok for Mariano but not for Joba? The bottom line is, Yankee fans in support of moving Joba to the pen are not only supporting it because we want the best set-up man in the world, it’s because we want the heir apparant to Mariano Rivera locked in “just in case.”

    • Drew says:

      Here ya go buddy:
      http://www.baseball-reference......5&t=p
      Mariano as a starter, not so good.
      Joba as a starter, bueno.

    • And what the “heir apparent” crowd misses is that Mo failed as a starter. He started, and he was pretty bad. Then they moved him to relief, at age 25 or 26. Joba is 23 and has the ceiling of a top-end starter. He is more valuable there than in the closing role.

      Also, you’d find plenty of people, myself included, to argue that all those starting pitchers you mentioned, Pettitte and Cone in particular, were more important to the dynasty than Mo.

      You cannot get to the 9th inning with a lead if you don’t have starting pitchers who can hold the other team.

      • kunaldo says:

        the funny thing is, whenever we lose an important game, like the past few years in the playoffs, Mo is interviewed and puts it perfectly: “I can do nothing”

    • jsbrendog says:

      the yankees had MO 2001-2008. how’d that go? you know why they didnt win anything from 2002-now even though they had MO?

      STARTING FUCKING PITCHING

      • JobaWockeeZ says:

        But teh starting pitching means nothing!!!!!
        I mean with joba in teh 8th and mariano as our closer, our rotation of wang ,sidney ponson, darrel rasner, phil hughes and ian kennedy would have won us teh WS!!! I mean joba is in then 8th so we will win every day.

      • JohnnyC says:

        Ahhh, but they made the post-season every year…until they took Joba out of the pen in 2008. Fools!!!!

    • Mike HC says:

      Mo got pulled as a starter because he was not effective. Joba has proven he can be an effective starter.

      “We all recognize that Mariano Rivera is the most important Yankee this decade” – - just because you say it, does not make it true. I think Jeter and Bernie Williams might have something to say about that.

    • UWS says:

      For the 7899076699th time, Mariano Rivera was moved to the bullpen because…*deep breath* HE FAILED AS A STARTER!

      F.A.I.L.E.D. FAILED!!!!!!!!!!

      Argh, why is this so difficult for people to grasp?

    • I’m going to tear your comment apart. Bear with me.

      I just love how the pro-starter Joba people act as though the pro-relief Joba people are factless, baseless, idiots.

      Not true. There’s certainly a case to be made for moving Joba to the pen, but it would be at the expense of the Yankees’ starting rotation and does not improve the team.

      But if Wang, Hughes, and Joba are all performing in a month, I’d rather utilize all 3 of them, as opposed to sending Hughes back down to the minors.

      This is a classic straw-man argument. If they’re all performing in a month and Pettitte and A.J. are both still healthy, then we will have too much pitching, as Joe said earlier today. But we can’t determine what to do then until we get there. Chien-Ming Wang has thrown a whopping two good innings in a row at the tail end of a blow out. We’re not there yet.

      I’d argue Mariano Rivera was and is more important than Roger Clemens, David Cone, Andy Pettitte, Jimmy Key, David Wells, etc, etc, etc, etc all every were to this organization.

      You’d be wrong. Unless Joba is throwing 100+ innings of sub-2.00 ERA out of the pen, he’s more valuable as an above-average starter. The only year Rivera may have been more valuable than some, but not all, of the starting pitchers was in 1996 when he nearly did throw over 100 innings at an ERA around 2.08.

      Why is all of this ok for Mariano but not for Joba?

      Because Mariano Rivera was a small kid who didn’t have the stuff or the stamina to succeed as a Major League starter. He wasn’t half the prospect Joba was. It’s a faulty comparison.

      Yankee fans in support of moving Joba to the pen are not only supporting it because we want the best set-up man in the world, it’s because we want the heir apparant to Mariano Rivera locked in “just in case.”

      Again, that makes the team weaker just to placate fan concerns that the Yanks won’t have an heir apparent to Rivera. That’s not a smart baseball move.

      ***

      In the end, it’s an inescapable truth that Joba would probably make the pen better, but overall, the team would be worse off for it. That’s just the way baseball works, and it’s way top starting pitchers aren’t pitching the 8th around baseball.

    • JP says:

      “I just love how the pro-starter Joba people act as though the pro-relief Joba people are factless, baseless, idiots. The stats are obvious, the potential is obvious, and of course it would make total sense for Joba to be starter.

      No, the pro-starter people don’t “act” any way…they refute the relief pitcher idea with data, with facts. This leads to a conclusion, often, that the bullpen proponents are idiots, but it is at least based on an objective look at the facts. On the contrary, the pro-bullpen people offer up either nothing factual, or a distorted, often incorrect or meaningless subset of statistics to support their view.

      Why don’t you explain the facts and basis of why you think Joba should be a relief pitcher?

      Seriously, I’m not being a jerk, I’m asking you to give me your reasons, backed up with facts and stats, why you’d rather have him in the bullpen than starting.

    • Tom Zig says:

      Okay let’s hear your argument.

    • Ian says:

      You make very good points.

      My response regarding Mariano was that he wasn’t moved to the bullpen because the organization knew that there he would become the greatest reliever who ever lived. He was moved to the bullpen simply because he failed as a starting pitcher and couldn’t develop any consistent off-speed pitches that he could control.

      We’ve yet to see any signs that Joba will be a failure as a starting pitcher from that regard. We’ve seen him have very good control over 3 of his 4 pitches, and the 4th one (changeup) is becoming a solid out pitch for him this season. Mariano never had the type of curveball or slider that Joba has, and that’s part of the reason he didn’t have much success as a starter.

      With the type of stuff that Joba has, it would be very silly for us not to use him as a starting pitcher. With his ability and with his stuff, all 29 of the other MLB teams would be doing the same thing that we’re doing with Joba. And that’s grooming him to be a starting pitcher.

      The only problem and issue with that in Yankeeland is that that process is one that takes time and patience. Two words forbidden in the Yankee dictionary.

  34. jsbrendog says:

    can anyone find the first ever post b-jobber was used in? who coined the phrase? im curious to know how long its ben around and be educated as to its storied history

  35. JohnnyC says:

    You realize, don’t you, that Francesa is pushing for the Yankees to go to a 6 man rotation until the ASB. Then, he sees Wang and Hughes staying in the rotation and Joba going to the pen. Of course, he believes the team will not do this. And he mutters a curse under his breath.

  36. Drew says:

    It seems like it should be easy for us to just not watch as Ben intimates. However, when you listen/watch a program for almost ten years you get used to throwing it on the television or in the car on the radio. It’s like a chick that you used to date, you should stay away and avoid her because she’s a moron. It’s easier said and thought than done. You remember good times and hope that these bad times will cease to exist. With Francessa, I’m hoping he’ll get a partner and the show will regain its credibility to me and many others. Until then, I’ll probably keep tuning in just hoping it will change…

    • JohnnyC says:

      “It’s like a chick that you used to date, you should stay away and avoid her because she’s a moron. It’s easier said and thought than done. You remember good times and hope that these bad times will cease to exist.”

      I know what you’re saying. I married that chick. Hell, I’m still paying alimony to that witch.

    • Tank the Frank says:

      “It’s like a chick that you used to date, you should stay away and avoid her because she’s a moron. It’s easier said and thought than done. You remember good times and hope that these bad times will cease to exist.”

      Plus if you offer her sex she’ll probably be into it.

  37. yankeefan91 Arod fan says:

    There goes francessa again.

  38. kunaldo says:

    I LOVE DAVID CONE…he was just on the mkay show, and he said exactly what mostly everybody here believes…joba has 4 excellent pitches, and you need to give him every chance to succeed as a starter…and if we hadnt seen him dominant in the 8th inning in 07, this wouldnt be a conversation

    CONEY!

    • JohnnyC says:

      Would Coney be interested in being pitching coach? Man, he’s the perfect role model for our young pitchers. On the field, that is. Off the field, not so much.

      • JP says:

        Cone is a gentleman. I LOVE his broadcasting. He has that smiling, happy midwestern demeanor, yet he’s funny, and has some great baseball observations. He’s not one big rambling cliche or a jock who mindlessly cheers the athletes.

        I think he’d make a fantastic pitching coach.

        • JohnnyC says:

          Seriously, Cone knows more about how to pitch in the major leagues than Dave Eiland. If he can teach what he knows, we’d do a better job of harnassing the pitching talent we’ve been developing. Let the guys like Nardi and Billy Connors deal with refining mechanics and perfecting secondary pitches. Cone knows stuff like pitch selection, reading the batter’s swing, and game-planning a line-up.

          • Mr. Max says:

            I think it only may seem that way because you hear and see Cone. You never see Eiland, or Gator or Stottlemyre, etc.

            Eiland is a VERY good pitching coach, and quite respected in the league. He was a terrible pitcher, but successful playing careers do not equal successful coaching careers automatically.

  39. Brent says:

    Can someone please tell me why a 6 man rotation is so horrible?? If the starters are going into the 6/7 every game, the bullpen is fine. If the need for an extra reliever arises, have Tomko or Igawa pitch. God knows we can call Igawa up as many times as necessary and nobody will take him when we send him back down. We have CC and CMW(when healthy) and AJ throw some complete games in the mix that will keep everyone fresh.

    Look at the NBA, you gotta keep everyone fresh for the playoffs or you get eliminated!

    • JohnnyC says:

      Good thinking. That’s why the Yankees will shock and awe the world by drafting Stephen Curry with the 29th pick of the Baseball Amateur Draft. You can’t make the post-season without a dead-eye 3 point shooter.

    • JP says:

      It’s the logical next step…they do that in Japan, righht? Six starters, everyone pitches on the same day of every week, and Sunday is always an off day…

      But–to switch to that, mid season, is dangerous. But I can’t think of any mechanical reason why it shouldn’t work.

      However, the more logical question is why you couldn’t have a 4 man rotation? Maybe you’d need even lower pitch counts – maximum 80-85? And you’d need more long relief pitchers.

      But someone (Bill James, probably) wrote an article on this, suggesting that if it were true you could pitch every 4th game, limited to say 80 pitches, you could end up getting more innings, safely, out of your best starters.

      • Brent says:

        I am down with that. Whay classify a pitcher a starter or a closer or a reliever. How about calling them pitchers and have them pitch appox 75-90 pitches a game, mix it up, ..you play Boston, throw CC/CMW/MO game 1 Pettitte/Joba/MO game 2 AJ/Phil/MO game 3 – and when you swept the series, you worry about the next start with Coke/Aceves/anyone else, …then you start over. The righty/lefty percentages are crap. You look too into the numbers and you forget that the Yanks players are the best. Let them beat the other guys.

    • Joey says:

      Why would we limit our best pitchers to every 6th game when they can/should be out there every 5? We can have CC take the mound every 5th or 6th game. That’s not a tough choice.

  40. Pastafarian says:

    What a tyrant… it’s unbelievable how he yells over other peoples voices and manipulates words to make the caller seem idiotic while he just sounds like an ignorant radio broadcaster who has the ability to quite the voices (with his quick call over to the other guy working there) which completely absurd. Why people listen or watch him is beyond me and I can’t believe you would support this man if you do watch/listen. He is loud, obnoxious, and treats anyone who disagrees with him like a child…. Mike Francesa is a cunt (hehe).

  41. Brent says:

    Hey! How about Jeter! Have him come in and pitch! Everyone wants to find out where he plays after he gets booted from SS. The man has a strong arm, he can DH and close after Mo retires.

  42. Tank the Frank says:

    This is a New York thing.

    David Price just threw 100 pitches in 3.1 innings in his season debut. He got the last out of the ALCS out of the bullpen. Not a peep from Tampa.

    • Ivan says:

      Pretty much yeah. David Price and Joba Chamberlain are both highly regarded pitchers (Joba is actually younger than Price) but one side is not touching the argument of one pitcher going to the bullpen and the other side basically goes to all out war to see whether Joba is a starter or reliever.

    • Matt-Pitt says:

      Exactly what it is. If Joba and Price switched places, people would be raving about Joba in Tampa and saying how he only helped the bullpen in the postseason, but he was drafted a started and will remain a starter. If Price were in New York, we would have P-Jobbers. Its the fact that Joba came in and completely dominated out of the pen, for what? 30IP?. I’m taking a stab at innings… I don’t remember how much he pitched for us and I frankly don’t care. People got spoiled of a shutdown 8th inning guy on the big stage of New York and thats all it is. Most people also think Joba only has 2 above average pitches because thats all he threw out of the bullpen. Thats the people who don’t do any research on the kid. I mean damn, half the people had no idea who he even was when he came up. Its a lack of initiative on people’s parts to get information on the kid, they just saw what he did and are now running with it. Shame, they don’t even know they have a future ace on their staff.

  43. Lanny says:

    How can all the fans of Rotation Joba keep saying there is no debate? It’s obviously up for debate with the bullpen as terrible as it is and with the surplus of starters. Not to mention he might be better off long term as a shutdown reliever. You just can’t stop the debate because you think your point is 100% right.

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      Really? Better off long term as a reliever?
      Relief pitchers >>>>>> Starters?
      Really?
      Next year there won’t be a surplus of starters with Phil Hughes taking Andy’s spot.
      Right now we don’t have a surplus of starting pitchers because Wang is not 100 percent. if we take out Joba now who the hell is going to replace him? Aceves? IPK?

    • jsbrendog says:

      Bo, do you have a personality disorder? we all know you are lanny who is bo who is grant who is sal who more than likely is brendo….

  44. Ivan says:

    Francesa is like the Fox News Channel, they block ALL other opinions that could beat theirs and thus are bias to their opinions. It’s quite ridiculous and frankly it’s like a loophole of censorship.

    Besides, arguing with Francesa is no use with his complete ignorance and arrogance and those words pretty much come hand to hand.

  45. Teix is the man says:

    Francessa claims New York’s rotation is better than Boston’s but their bullpen is better. Common sense would tell me that I’d rather have the better rotation, contrary to what he says.

  46. John says:

    You what would help our pen be the most dominant? CC, AJ, and Joba to the pen…shorten the game to 6 innings!

    • Mr. Max says:

      Way back in the day, it was kinda like that, with the “throw-day” pitchers providing relief instead of throwing a bullpen…

  47. Brent says:

    There is an interesting idea, …everyone pitches 1 inning! all you need is an 11 man rotation (in case of extra innings) and if it is a blowout, …Swish can Pitch!

  48. Brent says:

    Here is a concept, …screw with the other team, …have Mo start and have CC come in the 2nd or 3rd.

  49. pat says:

    I love the part of the video where Francesa clearly twists the words of what the caller is saying to make them sound ridiculous.

    Caller- “Mike, look at joba’s stats since he became a full time everyday starter, he has one of the top 5 or 6 ERA’s in that span”

    Francesa- YOURE TELLING ME JOBA IS ONE OF THE BEST 5 OR 6 PITCHERS IN THE GAME RIGHT NOW??? AREYOU KIDDING ME RARRRRRRRRR”

    Caller “No, Mike that’s not what I’m saying, just look at his stats since he became a fulltime starter…

    Francesa- YOURE TELLING ME HE”S ONE OF THE BEST 5 STARTERS IN THE GAME RIGHT NOW????? GET HIM OUTTA HERE!!!
    ————————————–

    Just ridiculous.

    • John says:

      MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.:
      Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

  50. Brendo says:

    So, let’s get this straight.

    You think it’s better to TRY to develop a starter who might be good rather than be a complete team and WIN?

    Isn’t it about the ring and titles? He clearly belongs in the bullpen. There is enough SP to win here. Bruney-Coke-Joba-Mo is a championship pen.

    I think we have clearly seen from Hughes that he can be a good 5th starter and he TRIES to develop. We don’t need to be developing 2 starters.

    It is all about winning. Not developing pitchers. You should remember that.

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      All about winning? Correct. The development of Joba to a great starter >>>>> him as a reliever. We’ll have a solid starter and we’ll win more games. Developing pitchers is a form of how to win. Saying otherwise is idiotic.

    • You think it’s better to TRY to develop a starter who might be good rather than be a complete team and WIN?

      He already is good as a starter. Soon he’ll be even better. It’s not about trying to do anything; it’s about doing the right thing. They can develop and at the same time compete and win.

      We don’t need to be developing 2 starters.

      Impatient much? The Yanks are in line right now for a playoff spot, and with two young, cost-controlled starters, they’re set for the future. Considering how bad the Yanks starting pitching has been since 2003, it’s amazing that so-called fans are impatient over the fact that there are – gasp – two young good pitchers in the Yankee rotation right now.

    • Let’s set this to an analogy.

      In 2006, AIG thought it was a great idea to pile up mortgage-backed securities. They were bringing in the loot, after all.

      In 2008, they were screwed. They hadn’t thought about the long term, and it all came crashing down.

      This is all about the long-term. As a commenter said before, the Yankees don’t build one-year wonders. They build dynasties. Joba’s long-term development is important for the franchise. The franchise doesn’t stop when November rolls around. It marches on. It’s in the best interest of the franchise to keep Joba starting, because that’s where he can provide the most long-term value.

    • John says:

      Those dumbass Bluejays developed Halladay and that’s why they have not championships!!! What a mistake! They should have just put in the pen and they would have the defending champs! Who needs Ace starters anyway!!! The Red Sox are being dumb by developing Buchholz and Bowden! If they were really future Aces, they would have never struggled or had hiccups, they would have thrown no-hitters everytime!

  51. mtrico says:

    I am no fan of Francessa, in fact, I think he is a moron. However, I believe that there should at least be discussion about putting Joba in the pen. Obviously, there is a maturing process with top of the rotation starters, and no one should expect him to jump into the rotation and be dominant right away. However, for whatever reason, he was lights out as a reliever, and as a starter, has struggled to go deep in games, and also does not reach the same velocity. The velocity issue could be more related to health issues than anything else, so at this point, we don’t know whether or not that is a byproduct of his move to the rotation or not. It could be, but who knows? However, if, over the long term, he continues to run up high pitch counts, and at best shows that he is a 6 inning starter, then in my opinion, the subject should be further discussed. Maybe at some point, not yet, you consider him as a relief option with an eye toward evntually making him the closer when Mo retires.

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      Our hopeful future closer is Mark Melancon. And if we put Joba in the pen, who do we replace him with? It’s going to take time before Wang gets up to form.

      • mtrico says:

        Right now, there is no one to replace him with, and you keep him where he is. But, if Wang and Hughes pitch like they belong in the rotation (a big if) then there is an extra starter. It will be interesting to see how the Yankees handle that situation.

        Perhaps Joba is best suited as a starter in the long term, but I do not think that it is moronic to discuss the possibility of putting him back in the bullpen under the right circumstances. It is however moronic to do what Fatso did on the radio the other day.

        As far as Melancon is concerned, hopefully he can become the future closer, but if you have someone at the major league level who you are certain can do that job at a high level (I am not stating that Joba has established himself at that), then I think you go with the guy you’ve got.

    • John says:

      Movement>>>>>Velocity and besides it’s like saying that Marathon runners obviously are not good at running as they are running slower than sprinters. It requires energy to throw 100+ pitches so you must pace yourself and conserve energy as a starter or else you will end up as AJ Burnett, who got hurt since he just fired away at 98 everytime instead of pitching.

      • EB says:

        Very True. However, you have to wonder when Joba is sitting 90-91. I have to blame his conditioning and his slow work in ST not just the marathon theory. We have seen him sit 94-95 as a starter, there is too large of a discrepancy so obviously hes not at 100%. Questions need to be asked.

        • Mr. Max says:

          Anyone who has ever watched Joba pitch, and watched closely, can tell you that he has a terrible time repeating his mechanics right now. Why? Because he’s YOUNG. If the Yanks were a losing team, I’d be all for putting him at AAA to work on armslots, drive, release point, etc. See this article:

          http://www.baseball-intellect......anics.html

          Since they are a contending team, he’s here and here to stay, and mechanics can be worked on at the MLB level, too, it’s just that mistakes will get hammered.

          He can really help the team with what he has. If he gets any sort of consistency, he’s filthy. That. Takes. TIME.

          I do worry about injury, and while a bullpen move MAY or MAY NOT prevent injury (assuming he has to worry less about consistency because he is not pitching as long), it’s irrelevant if he gets his mechanics in order. The risk of trying to fix Joba the Starter is far outweighed by the reward of having him at his peak.

  52. RustyJohn says:

    I’m good at my job (not great, but pretty good), however one day I had a dentist appointment and ended up coming into work late. I was amazed at how much more productive I was during those three hours because I could go balls to the wall and work my ass off without having to pace myself for a full day.

    So, yesterday I went to work for only an hour. I’m not a morning person, so I stopped in around 3 PM and worked until 4 PM before leaving. Man, I got so much stuff done in that hour!

    I don’t understand why my boss was so pissed off though- he expects me in the office from 8-5, but I keep trying to explain to him the 3PM-4PM hour is VERY important. Much more important than 8am-9am, or hell, even 8am-1PM. Plus, I’m much more productive from 3-4 if I only work 3-4, not 8-5. I told my boss I expected the same pay for my one hour of work too.

    I don’t understand why he fired me…..

    • John says:

      soooo are for Joba starting or relieving?

      • RustyJohn says:

        Um, I think that tongue-in-cheek comment illustrates the absurdity of applying the “Joba to the pen” argument to any other situation. Baseball is no different than any other occupation- if you can have someone contribute to the workforce for 8 or 9 hours a day and be good at it, it makes no sense to tell them to come in to work for one hour because they are “great” for one hour, particularly when you have to hire someone else to work the other eight hours.

        • John says:

          gotcha…i thought so but just wanted to make sure

        • mtrico says:

          I understand the argument, but it’s not entirely accurate. There are some situations in a baseball game that are bigger than others. For example, if your offense scores 8 runs over the first 7 innings of a game. Is it that significant to have a pitcher who goes 7 and allows 2 as opposed to someone who goes 7 and allows 5? Not really. But, with 2 outs and the bases loaded in a one run game, does it make a difference if you can bring in a guy with a 1.50 E.R.A. as opposed to a 6.50 E.R.A. (you can use WHIP or opponent’s BA numbers instead if you like, but I think you understand the point)? The one thing that I have not seen factored into the calculus is having a superior pitcher to bring into a high leverage situation. To use the work analogy: given the choice, would it be better to have the employee around for the full day on an uneventful day, or for a three hour period during the busiest aftternoon of the year?

          I am not saying that Joba should go to the pen now, but to suggest that this should never be considered as an option under any circumstances, is to me, shortsighted.

          • Mr. Max says:

            http://hotfeeder.com/sports/fa.....te_1188731

            This is a great article for describing why good starters are more valuable. Joba is often compared to Mo and as his heir. Nobody is as good as Mo has been. The above article shows some of that. To assume that Joba will be that good for as long as Mo with the small sample at hand is foolish. Just look at how long other dominant closers last (cough, Brad Lidge, cough).

            Leverage is important, but not as much as you think. Now, this is a very stats minded approach, and Torre’s “heartbeat” is important, but data really does lead the way…

  53. miketotheg says:

    This is like an experiment in getting people animated.

    for my money, i want to take off the kid gloves and push joba to pitch the eight inning, starting from the 1st.

    we need our starters to go deep and our pen will fix itself.

    • Ian says:

      It’s basically how we won 9 games in a row and now 12 out of 15. But that’s not important to some people. It’s more about trying to prove that they were “right” that Joba should be in the pen.

      A great reliever can only do so much when your starters are getting knocked out of games early; which is precisely why starters are more valuable. Good starting pitching gives you a chance to win the game. Bad starting pitching basically gives you NO chance to win a game regardless of how great your bullpen may or may not be.

      With good starting pitching, you have a chance.

      With bad starting pitching, you have NO chance.

      • miketotheg says:

        while i agree with your statement completely, my point was that our starters need to go deeper into games more often. That’s why (this sucks to say this) Carl Pavano has more wins this year than any Yankee starting pitcher. Pitching five innings isn’t enough.

        Five and fly guys don’t cut it and if Girardi needs to let Joba’s pitch count climb a little bit so he can pitch into a scoreless 7th, then so be it.

  54. mustang says:

    From reading all the comments its cool that we have manage to argue this point without actually “hanging-up” on each other. (Although Jamal came dangerously close. LOL)
    It’s great to have forum where you can do this without having to wait for 2 hours on phone just to be yelled at. A point the Mr. Francessa has missed.

    RAB-1
    Francessa show-0

  55. Harold says:

    Francesa isn’t at all as you characterize on the subject of Chamberlain, and in fact did have facts on hand and used them. Unfortunately, you say it’s only about the 8th inning, which Mike did not. He has always spoken of the team’s need for multi late innings such as the 1996 Rivera role. Second, the team does not have a late inning set up man which is half the reason Francesa suggests the move. He points out the focus should be on a team’s winning, not in developing an ace. Better bullpens win championships–and Francesa had numbers to back that up too. I’m sure this blog is a huge commercial success and all. But there has to be a way for a blog to win without relying so much on sarcasm, ranting, misinformation, and character assassination.

    • He points out the focus should be on a team’s winning, not in developing an ace.

      Developing an ace means a team will win. There is a strategy aside from the “win now and sacrifice the future” that the Yankees have adhered to for, well, a while now. The Yankees, luckily, are set up to do both. The additions of Sabathia and Burnett help in the short term and the caution they’re taking with Hughes and Chamberlain will help them win in the long term.

      Better bullpens win championships–and Francesa had numbers to back that up too

      Better rotations also win championships. In the years the Yankees went to the WS, only ’96 and ’01 had bullpens that were markedly better than the rotations.

    • Drew says:

      He actually says the Yanks suck at developing starters. Which is why he contradicts himself.

  56. touchtoneterriost says:

    Joba in the pen will win a championship.Let Hughes be the future ace he looks like a starter.People say go get a reliever.But can you get a Mariano.Joba was that good.Melchon is a good reliever not a MO.

    Phillies were a decent rotation team last year.But there lineup was great and there bullpen was great.Just like the Yankees teams of the 90′s.THe Braves in the 90′s had the greatest rotation(Maddux,Glavine and Smoltz) but they only won one championship because they didn’t have MO.

    We got a ACE already.We don’t have a bullpen and that will keeps us from the championship.

  57. touchtoneterriost says:

    Joba in the pen will win a championship.Let Hughes be the future ace he looks like a starter.People say go get a reliever.But can you get a Mariano.Joba was that good.Melchon is a good reliever not a MO.

    Phillies were a decent rotation team last year.But there lineup was great and there bullpen was great.Just like the Yankees teams of the 90′s.THe Braves in the 90′s had the greatest rotation(Maddux,Glavine and Smoltz) but they only won one championship because they didn’t have MO.

    We got a ACE already.We don’t have a bullpen and that will keeps us from the championship.

    • Joba in the pen will win a championship.

      Sure, that could happen. But, it’s less likely to happen since the rotation will be missing its second best player. This becomes especially troubling with Wang’s future seemingly in flux.

      Let Hughes be the future ace he looks like a starter.

      Hughes has also looked pretty crappy at times. I have a ton of faith in Phranchise, but pairing him with Joba in the rotation only makes the rotation stronger. Much stronger.

      And what in the fuck do you mean by he “looks like” a starter? If that isn’t the worst rationale for anything ever, then I don’t know what is. CC and A.J. are big, hard throwing guys like Joba. Do they need to be in the ‘pen, too?

      People say go get a reliever.But can you get a Mariano.

      No, you can’t. That’s because Mariano Rivera is the best relief pitcher ever. However, he’s also been more or less overrated by everyone. You also can’t go get a 23 year old with the potential of Joba Chamberlain. He’s under team control for the next, what, four years? He has the potential to be the Yankees’ version of Tim Lincecum. Why do you not want that?

      Joba was that good.Melchon is a good reliever not a MO.

      Lot’s of guys would look awesome in the bullpen. Lots. Because it’s easier to do that. No one said Melancon will be Mo. No one will ever be Mo except Mo. That doesn’t mean that Melancon can’t be a good closer.

      Phillies were a decent rotation team last year.But there lineup was great and there bullpen was great.

      What about the Yankees? They had a good bullpen but they missed the playoffs because of a bad rotation. The argument could easily be made that Joba starting the year in the ‘pen cost them a few games early in the year (as well as his injury and Wang’s injury).

      but they only won one championship because they didn’t have MO.

      But regardless, they still won, what, 34 division titles in a row without an established, dominant closer, right? So wouldn’t that tell you that over the long term, not the short term of a playoff series, that starters give more to a team than its bullpen?

      We got a ACE already

      So having two ace-caliber pitchers is bad?

      We don’t have a bullpen and that will keeps us from the championship.

      Without a solid rotation, the bullpen matters less and less.

  58. Anthony Fantino says:

    There is nothing wrong with putting Joba in the pen. It is guaranteed that he will be in the pen this year at some point because the yankees want to gradually increase his innings and if they keep him as a starter for the duration of the year he would have pitched a significant amount of pitches more than last year and that might be too taxing for his arm, since he had an injury last year. I say give him 2 or 3 more starts and if he keeps having high pitch counts early on, then he should go in the pen, because CMW appears to be ready to be a starter again and when he is on he is money in the bank ( 2 19 game win seasons). So Hughes stays in the rotation, Hughes has been more minor league pitching experience, overall Hughes has pitched more collectively in both the minors and majors, I believe Joba was rushed to the majors and he is still a young kid and he potentially may even need to spend some more time in the minors to work on his durability and longevity.

    • There is nothing wrong with putting Joba in the pen.

      Yes there is. It makes the Yankees a worse team.

      It is guaranteed that he will be in the pen this year at some point

      Really? I haven’t heard anyone in the Yankees’ organization say anything about this. Have you?

      I say give him 2 or 3 more starts and if he keeps having high pitch counts early on, then he should go in the pen,

      No, he shouldn’t. If he starts getting rocked in his next few starts and shows no signs of improvement, I’d rather he go down to Scranton to work it out. He needs innings and a regular routine, not inconsistent rest and use. That could very easily lead to an injury.

      because CMW appears to be ready to be a starter again

      You’re ready to say that after two good relief innings? Seriously? That’s pretty presumptive.

  59. damien says:

    I used to listen to his show quite often and didn’t mind it too much. It is now named the Joba in the pen show to me and I avoid it at all costs. That caller made valid points and Mike literally screamed at him, disgusting.

  60. Paul says:

    Francesa in NY, Eskin in Philly they’re both reasons I don’t listen to sports talk radio. Well them and most of the complete idiots who call in to talk to them.

    The callers call in with the most ridiculous rants and trade ideas. While the host has their own moronic ideas and just belittle the people who actually have thought out opinions that make sense. I think they do it because they don’t like their listeners showing that the host doesn’t know jack shhhhh

  61. NHYankee62 says:

    Pretty amusing that Francessa used Porcello as his shining example of what a young starter should be.

    I seem to remember Rick Sutcliffe making the same argument when BSPN covered Joba/Porcello matchup in Detroit. Sutcliffe even said that if Joba’s fastball doesn’t look better, the Yankees should consider moving him to the pen. Soon enough, Porcello had given up 5 runs or so and got knocked out of the game while Joba pitched 7 strong innings.

    Very disingenuous of Francessa not to even mention that, but what do you expect from such a pathetic hack?

    PS: Joba featured probably his best curveball of the year that game. What happens if the Yankees panic and move him to the pen? He stops throwing the pitch and becomes solely a 2-pitch pitcher. What a waste of talent that would be!!

  62. [...] have no use for that argument, and not much use for Francesa. Fortunately, since River Avenue Blues already got all worked up and put Francesa down I don’t have [...]

  63. Bill says:

    Thank you for your intelligent comments against the B Jobbers!!! I won’t repeat them, because you have already done so.

    I feel like I have been alone in talking to a lot of my sports friends who are not really well informed but who get the spiel from Francesca. Francesca is really stirring up the pot right now and it is soooo disgusting. The problem is he’s brainwashing a lot of the less informed fandom and getting everyone all worked up. Its great to see that our GM is smart enough not to be riled up by this blowhard.

    This is why NY is such a difficult place to play. We are the media capital of the world and every single move is analyzed over and over. This is why we can’t develop players well. For every Derek Jeter there is a Ted Lilly or a Doug Drabek, homegrown players who could’ve done well playing for the team but were never given a chance because of the media clamor which the old George Steinbrenner played to.

    Keep getting the word out and I am glad I found your blog!

  64. Bill says:

    P.S. Ok ok, Ted Lilly wasn’t exactly homegrown, but he started his major league career with the Yanks. If we had kept him we could have had a better staff than the one with the one we had with Kevin Brown, Carl Pavano et. al.

    You get my point…

  65. Bill says:

    P.P.S. To the Yankee fans like the Doug quoted in your post, who cannot get through to disagree with Francesca on WFAN because they disclose they are not of the B-Jobber mentalitly I have the solution.

    Pretend to be a B-Jobber to the screener. Then when you get with the Francesca, tell him you want to talk about Joba and WHAM! Make your point.

    Well its a thought.

  66. louis lanzieri says:

    tub of lard is impossible to listen to, he`s the most unprepared, and if you notice his is such an liar, he doesn`t watch half the stuff he says he does.

  67. [...] Others were less guarded with their praise and expectations. Steve Lombardi wondered if Hughes’ future rests in the bullpen, and NJ.com’s Colin Stephenson asks if Phil could be the next Joba Chamberlain. I don’t even want to know what Mike Francesca thinks. Is Phil Hughes a STARTING PITCHAAAAAAAAAH? [...]

  68. [...] I always thought that Joba should be in the ‘pen (fine, call me a B-Jobber), I think it was stupid to keep him on an innings limit for the past few years if he was never [...]

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