I have to say I dont understand your conception or ideal rotation. I mean look at Josh Beckett, the guy has mixed good years with dominant years but he is no doubt a top end starter (ERA+ alternating between low 110 area one year and as high as 150 in another year). And he has had atrocious stretches where he has been anything but consistent. he is still becoming a better pitcher (which is scary).

And again the consistency should come from CC, AJ and Wang, the veterans and the alleged top end guys. Okay Wang is hurt, then it shouldnt be an issue to lean on CC and AJ. And I really disagree that they could learn anything from being in the bullpen year round. Thats a cop out, its obvious that these guys could dominate for an inning, they need to learn how to do it every 5 days for six innings, and they are almost there. Go around the league, check out the number three starters. You tell me how many of them are better than Joba. Of course youll find a couple but really how many guys. Its not that many.

And of course the Santana comment doesn’t apply, it hyperbole. But I will say this, so long as this team makes the playoffs, it has as good of a shot as any to win. And of course Halladay makes you better immediately but if your talking World Series…then I will gladly roll the dice with Joba and his upside (and Phil) then on Jarod Washburn or Gil Meche.

And by the way enough with hearkening back to 1981, the 80′s were bad but it was 88-92 that was awful and you know what things like that are going to happen and if that is the bottom, Ill take that every time.

They have a team that can win now and they have a team that has a nice young nucleus. I’m not even going to say Montero or Jackson. As presently constituted they have a 29 year old ace, they have a 29 year old stud first baseman, the have a 26 year old stud 2b who is going to be here for a while and they have some nice role players in Gardner and Melky who are both in their mid to early twenties. You cant expect the Yankees to be a team of twenty year olds. And if the aging guys on my team are Mariano Rivera, Alex Rodriguez and Derek Jeter, I’ll take my chances they can hold up and be contributors for the next three to five years.

You can def point to Clev or Texas and say, hey this shows that these guys may be productive starters – but if the Yanks are trying to win this year, I don’t think they can have the necessary patience to let these guys learn on the job – this year.

I def agree, most guys need a few years in a rotation to really see who they are – prob is Yanks need consistency (actually they need quality as well) if they want to make the playoffs and hopefully have a real shot at winning a title – I don’t think Hughes or Joba can (or should be expected to) give them that this year – unless its in the pen.

The other huge issue is the Yanks are old and this might be the best chance they have to win another title – even if Hughes and Joba both become top starters in a few years, the only position players that might not be in decline (or gone by then) are Tex and Cano.

A few years back (before they resigned A-Rod) I was hoping against hope the Yanks would rebuild – I saw the aftermath of the 81 season and watched the futility of chasing bad free agents, not understanding how to build a rotation and the hype of so many prospects that never panned out.

I think its very possible Joba and Hughes could be stalwarts for many years – I have alot of questions on both but I also realize they could get hurt, exposed – and that hold doubly so for guys like A-Jax and Montero and really everyone else in the farm.

And that’s the big ? – what should the Yanks do?

If you told me that I had to give up Hughes, Montero, Jackson and Melancon for Haren or Halladay, I’d pick Haren for 3 reasons.

1. Haren is younger
2. Haren is already on a reasonable contract
3. If Hughes, Montero, and Jackson somehow become greatness, at least they would be in the NL.

And as for looking at his away starts as a whole, if we do a start by start analysis that means that there was a stretch of five starts this year where Johan Santana deserved to be in the minor leagues. I understand what your trying to say, but the Cleveland start counts and this is the kind of inconsistency you typically deal with with young starters. He is allowed to have a couple of bad starts in a row and you need to be patient or else you will never see the fruits of the development. And to me your allowed to extract bad performances as signs as poor indicators (which you have done with Phi) but I don’t understand what precludes me from taking what they have done well (i.e. Cleveland and Texas) as positive indicators.

The thing that strikes me about many here is how optimistic many are about the futures of guys like Montero, A-Jax and even Hughes (who as a starter showed the same difficulties – 2 pitches, straight fb mostly around 91-93).

Haren in 07 had one start against the Sox 7.2 ip 2 runs and was 1-2 vs the Angels but with a 1.38 era in 26 ip.

He’s owed 37 mil over the next 3 – Yanks could do alot worse than him.

He also had two of those wins by May 10th.

He’s 8-18 in “quality” starts – people like to mock the idea of Arroyo, but he’s a second half pitcher and he’ll eat innings – maybe he’s done, but a guy like him or Washburn, or hopefully someone who isn’t on the radar is going to be a better candidate this year (unless Joba suddenly finds himself).

With Hughes, I was never that impressed – great curve that he throws two different speeds, but a FB that is relatively straight and he tries to nibble the o\s corner.

That doesn’t mean that maybe Hughes was hurt and now is recovered and has more confidence and will grow as a starter.

Pettitte has been bad – since 2nd half last year – I love him, but I think he’s done and that’s part of the problem (WHIP and baa are virtually same as Joba)
- too many guys killing the pen. Andy needs to go elsewhere next year opening a spot for Hughes or Joba.

As for the 100 pitch count – no arguement – my only point was Joba gets pulled early mostly b\c he’s maxed the count, but they won’t let him take his lumps either – if they did, his era would be higher