Where have you gone, Joba Chamberlain?

Pitching doesn't hold up as Yanks lose opener to Angels
If Sanchez can do it, why not Hughes?

Following a stellar eight-inning appearance in Cleveland on June 1, Joba Chamberlain seemed to be on the verge of a run. He had allowed just four hits and two walks while winning his third decision of the year. His ERA sat at 3.71, and he had reached the 8th for the first time this year.

The run he went on was not the one we expected. Since then, Joba has thrown 35.2 innings, and he has been awful. He has allowed 27 runs — just 20 earned — while giving up 47 hits and 15 runs. That’s a WHIP of 1.74 and an ERA of 5.05. Opponents are hitting nearly .300/.400/.450 during this stretch. It’s ugly.

As I’ve said a few times, I don’t know what’s wrong. Joba has no approach on the mound. He has no pattern; he has not rhythm; and he has no velocity. His stuff — once electric even as as starting pitcher — is simply average. His breaking pitches have less bite than they once did, and his fastball isn’t even all that fast.

Joba doesn’t seem to have a clue about it. “I made great pitches throughout,” he said after the game, seemingly in denial. I can’t even begin to guess what that was all about.

A good number of Yankee fans feel that the bullpen will magically restore Joba to the pitcher we saw in 2007 and 2008. That, though, just won’t happen. The Yankees will be left with another ineffective reliever who can’t locate his pitches and can’t find an out pitch when things, as they did in the 5th inning last night, start to go bad.

The bullpen may have been the worst thing to happen to Joba. Where the Yanks go from here with the once-heralded phenom struggling as a 23-year-old in the Majors will be both telling and vital to the team’s future.

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Pitching doesn't hold up as Yanks lose opener to Angels
If Sanchez can do it, why not Hughes?
  • Rick

    So you say the bullpen was the worst thing for Joba? No, moving him out of the bullpen was the worst thing. I’d rather have him in the pen then as a starter where he is going to KILL our bullpen by making them come in early. Phil Hughes has deserved to be in the starting rotation all season long.

    • Pasqua

      What you do you imagine he would be doing differently as a reliever right now than as a starter? His stuff is his stuff.

      What everybody seems to want is the flamethrower Joba, and the assumption is that if he were in the ‘pen, that’s what we would get. But the reality is that he’s got the same arm out of the bullpen that he has when he starts. He’s got to find his command.

      Right now, he’s just not an effective pitcher, period. In my opinion, that’s what the overall concern is, and should be…not his role.

      • BklynJT

        Actually, I think that if he were to move to the bullpen, his stuff would play higher. We all saw it with Phil Hughes, so we cannot deny the fact that Joba would probably gain a couple of miles on his fb if he were to transition to the pen.

        • Ed

          And if you add a couple mph to Joba’s fastball, he’s still throwing it slower than he did as a starter last year. He’s sitting 92 now, he was sitting 95-96 last year.

      • Rick

        It’s not what I imagine his stuff doing, it’s that he can’t kill the entire bullpen by coming out of the pen. Let Hughes have a shot at throwing some legit innings as a starter – he can’t be anymore underwhelming then Chamberlain has been.

    • V

      Congratulations! You have won the dumbest post of the day award!

    • RichYF

      Your logic is faulty.

      Who is going to pitch the innings? You can’t just say, “if Joba is in the bullpen he won’t be killing it.” If Joba is in the bullpen someone else has to pitch 7 innings a game. CC does. Burnett can. Pettitte hasn’t. Wang hasn’t. You think Mitre can? Jason Johnson? Kei Igawa? Joba is head and shoulders against the bunch of them. In AAA, he’d probably go 7 innings every night because those hitters fool much more easily, even on his “bad” pitches. It’s a different ballgame against these hitters.

      Putting Joba in the pen just gives one more arm for a poor starter to tax. Oh, and it wastes a rotation spot on a Kei Igawa type.

      • andrew

        Well, i agree with your premise, but you blatantly ignore that he suggested putting Hughes back in the rotation in his original post. I’d still prefer Joba in the rotation for now, but Hughes could probably produce the same results as Joba right now, and probably better

    • Nady Nation

      How has Hughes “deserved” to be in the rotation all year long? He had a 5.45 ERA over 7 starts, and lasted 5 innings or less in 5 of those 7 starts. Joba, even with his recent struggles, has an ERA 1.2 runs lower than Hughes has as a starter. Yet, Hughes should be in the rotation and Joba in the pen. OK.

    • Bryan

      You know who’s fault it is really is, Kyle Farnsworth. Just kidding but he was ineffective as the set up man in ’07 which made Joba to the pen a necessity. I believe the reason Joba is struggling as a starter is because he was never properly developed in the minor leagues. He had all of 15 starts before being shifted to a relief role. It’s tough on him to learn how to pitch at the major league level. Joba probably needs to go down for the next couple months. They can call up Sergio Mitre and work Phil Hughes back into the rotation for now. They can always trade for a starter if they need to.

  • Tony

    Let’s misquote Joba again. Please?

    • Zach

      exactly. lets ignore how he said embarassing and frustrating 7x talking about how much hard work you put in and dont get the results you want.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

      I didn’t misquote Joba. That was a direct quote from him.

  • deadrody

    More pitching less throwing. I caught a little of the game last night and the Anaheim gun had him at 96 mph in the 4th, so the velocity is there.

  • cuponoodles

    It seems that Phil and Joba have had stunningly similar role reversals take place. It appears that Joba has turned into the Kennedy/Hughes of last season, where he becomes a timid pitcher afraid to attack the strike zone, which leads to walks, high pitch counts, and prevents him from getting deep into games. This, coupled with his strangely diminished velocity (the YES gun had him in the low 90s/high 80s for much of the game in the early innings), has really been a large source of his problems. Hopefully he can right the ship soon…

    • EB

      The YES gun, modern civilization has established, is bogus. If you’re going to quote velocity use gameday for crying out loud.

      The YES gun they stole from the county fair, it has two readings 89 and 91

    • Zach

      YES gun was wrong

  • Tom Zig

    Would it be so bad to send him to the minors/Dr. James Andrews?

  • http://forums.projectcovo.com/images/smilies/e6omir.gif OmgZombies!

    I love that all of a sudden Phil Hughes is the model starting young pitcher. How it all changes in a few weeks.

    • Pasqua

      Yup. “What Have You Done For Me Lately?” is the name of that tune.

  • YankeeScribe

    They should send him down to Scranton to work on his mechanics for a few starts but I don’t think it will happen…

  • RichYF

    FWIW, Gameday had Jobber at 94-96 for at least the first 4 innings. I got in bed to watch most of the rest of the slaughter after that so I didn’t have a computer with me.

    My question/comment is this: When is too soon to become impatient? Throughout the season, we’ve been discussing how important it is to have patience with these young pitchers and that it’s quite obvious that they’re going to struggle vs. big league competition.

    If I’m not mistaken, early on, the “most important thing” for Jobber was to get his innings in. Obviously he’s not doing that sufficiently at this point, but I’m certainly not ready to throw in the towel. Mechanically, he looked different to me last night, but it was for the better. Through 4 I thought he was doing quite fine, but I’m not too sure what happened in the 5th.

    I do not like his post-game interviews, but I’m not really upset with him. He’s 23. He’s not going to just be an ace because he has the potential to be one. He’s going to get banged around, and then he’s going to either figure it out or hang ‘em up. So it goes.

    • Stryker

      When is too soon to become impatient?

      too soon to become impatient is sometime never. take a look at the cubs and kerry wood. that guy struggled and was inconsistent for YEARS before the cubs finally realized after injuries and being inconsistent that he should stick in the bullpen.

      • Mike Pop

        No, cause he was overworked as a started. Kerry wood was always supposed to be a starter, he was amazing.

  • Chris

    He’s a 23 year old starter learning to pitch in the majors. He’s having a bad patch and struggling to learn how to get through it. His stuff seems to be somewhat diminished from last year, which may be part of what’s causing the struggles, but it’s certainly still good enough to get major league hitters out.

    This is just what you get when you try to develop young pitchers. For a comparison, look at CCs numbers when he was 23. They’re only marginally better.

    • Stryker

      EXACTLY. when was the last time the yankees developed someone of joba’s ilk? he’s guy where it’s all there to become an elite starting pitcher – and he’s only 23 years old! this guy half a decade before he even enters his PRIME as a starting pitcher. to me, that’s half a decade to figure ‘it’ out and reach that potential. i think everyone is flipping the fuck out because we’ve never seen what it’s like to develop players/pitchers before, and in all honesty this pressing of the panic button is a complete overreaction.

      • Stryker

        *guy has half a decade before.. stupid typos early in the AM.

      • Craig

        Thank You.

    • Ace

      Dude, this team is ready to win now! All these players are getting older. Jeter, ARod, Posada, Mo and even Tex will be a year older next year. We don’t have time to fuck around and test out 23 year old pitchers who have no command and velocity. I wouldn’t give a shit if this team had no chance to win. But they’re ready to win a ring now. He had to give his team a chance and he’s not doing that right now. He’s destroying our bullpen in every start? Do you understand that?

      Seriously I’m all about Joba being a starter and he could be a stud one day. But this isn’t the fucking minor leagues. This is major league baseball and its the New York fucking Yankees. We don’t test out guys and let them struggle through each start. If that’s what I wanted to see, I’d be a fucking Pirates fan.

      Honestly all you Joba apologists need to get your fucking mouths off his dick and be rational. The dude isn’t right and needs to figure his shit out. And that’s fine as long its not in the fucking games that count.

      • Steve H

        Take your meds.

  • Paul

    I think the best thing for Joba is to send him to the minors to allow him to work out his issues. I can’t imagine putting him in the pen will help him at this point. Additionally, he is not helping the bullpen as a starter, since he rarely makes it out of the 5th inning. Obviously, this kid has a ton of potential and he is only 23. There is no need to push him at the major league level at this point in his career. Let Hughes start, put Aceves & Coke as the 8th inning pitchers, and bring back Joba when he figures himself out.

    • Chris

      I don’t see any benefit in having him go to the minors except making it easier for him to get his innings in. He’s not pitching that poorly – his ERA is still below league average. I would expect him to completely dominate AAA hitters if he were sent down, which won’t help his development at all.

      • Paul

        Overall his ERA is OK, but it is definitely increasing. With his current approach, I’m not sure he would dominate at the AAA level. To me, i just don’t have a lot of confidence when I watch him pitch. He just isn’t the same pitcher that we saw last year, and that is what bothers me. If we were still seeing moments where he looked like last year, I would be all for him working things out in the majors.

  • Rob

    “A good number of Yankee fans feel that the bullpen will magically restore Joba to the pitcher we saw in 2007 and 2008. That, though, just won’t happen.”

    Why not? Hughes was basically doing what Joba was doing in the rotation – low 90’s, throwing too many pitches, having flashes of brilliance but being for the most part inconsistent. Then they put him in the bullpen and everything changed. His velocity is up around 94-96, he’s attacking hitters and thriving. There’s no place for Joba in the bullpen right now because they need him in the starting rotation, but I think a pitcher’s stuff can translate differently from role to role and I don’t think that should be so easily dismissed.

    • Tom Zig

      except that he can’t locate his stuff and he won’t gain 7 MPH in the pen

      Therefore sticking him in the pen gives him more chances to blow games.

      • Rob

        Hughes went from 90/91/92 to 94/95/96. He’s also been able to throw strike more consistently and attack hitters with authority, something he lacked in the starting rotation. I think he’s shown the evidence to prove that Joba’s stuff can translate differently in a different role.

        • Dorian

          Ant wrong answer. Phil was throwing 93-95 before he was sen to the bullpen. Check pitch f/x

          • Rob

            I don’t need to check pitch f/x to see what Hughes was throwing, I watched the games. His velocity wasn’t the same. He’s even admitted that he’s had an increase in velocity because he’s only asked to throw an inning at a time.

            • Stryker

              unless you’re magical and can physically tell how fast a pitch was going WITHOUT looking at EXTREMELY INACCURATE guns on YES/fox/my9/whatever — you DO need to check pitch f/x.

            • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

              So your eyes are more reliable than a computer system’s radar gun? Why aren’t you out working w/state troopers to catch speeders?

  • JobaJr

    I’m beginning to get nervous about the guy.

    Bottom Line: He needs to go back to the Pen’ where he can succeed. Not in the rotation where he can barely give us 5 innings.

    • V

      Dumbest post #2.

      You really want Jose Veras back in the bullpen? He can’t locate worth a shit. He’s going to locate better in the bullpen?

    • X

      people seem to forget that being in the bullpen, all he has to do is get out 3-4 batters in a game. We know he was dominant at this, can pitch harder and attack the hitter because he doesnt have to save himself over a 9 inning game.

      I hate how everyone says he wont be any better in the pen. We saw this with our own eyes.

      • cult of basebaal

        We also saw him walk off the mound in Texas with a shoulder injury with our own eyes …

    • Craig

      Wrong. Take a deep breath and relax. Young pitchers go through bad stretches, even bad seasons. More established young pitchers – Beckett in 2006 and Verlander in 2008 – go through bad seasons. Joba isn’t better than those guys so he is not immune to those types of struggles. He’s going to – or at least should – battle and grind through this year as a STARTER, work on some things in the offseason and come back in 2010 a better pitcher – physically, mentally and emotionally. Thank God the fans don’t run the Yankees. I’d become a Rays fan.

  • http://JobavsRivera Boomer Joe

    If you look at Mariano Rivera’s 1995 stats- Very mediocre as a starter…..the rest was history! Don’t mess with success and Joba had it as a reliever in 2008.

    Artist merges the faces of the 2009 yankees-
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC59M_EvrNI

    • Nady Nation

      Joba also had success as a starter in 2008. And do you know why he had the opportunity to be successful in the bullpen in ’07? Because he had LOTS of success as a starter in the minors before being called up.

      • Stryker

        not to mention he was a fairly established starting pitcher in college as well.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      Mariano does not/did not have 4 workable pitches, that’s why he was not a starter post-1995. Joba has a plus fastball, a great slider, a good curveball and a workable changeup. You don’t put a guy like that in the bullpen until he has absolutely failed as a starter. If Joba’s typical night looks like last night come the end of 2010 or the beginning of 2011, then maybe I’ll change my tune. Until then, every effort has to be made to keep this guy in the rotation. Something tells me this isn’t the first time a young guy has struggled in his first full season as a starter.

      • Stryker

        Something tells me this isn’t the first time a young guy has struggled in his first full season as a starter.

        THANK YOU! let the guy struggle – he’s shown flashes of absolute dominance and for whatever reason he’s been inconsistent and on somewhat of a downward spiral as of late. hopefully the guy just gets his rest during the ASB and can come back strong in the second half.

  • Dorian

    Stop panicking Ben. That is all.

  • Alex

    As we all know, Joba is 23 years old. He will struggle, just as all pitchers do at some point in their career. As an earlier reader stated, he is going through his first “rough-patch” in his brief tenure as a ML baseball player. Rather than send him down, I believe it’s important for Joba to battle through this and restore some confidence. Until then I believe that Yankee fans should be patient with our young pitcher. He will struggle, and he most certainly will succeed, but what is most important is how Joba handles failure and what he takes from it moving forward. I’m staying patient because I know that Joba will be an elite starting pitcher in a few short years.

  • lohuds better

    I dont understand how the bullpen was the worst thing to happen to him? wasnt johan santana in the bullpen once? yea that effected him. Stop making excuses for him please.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      Johan was in the bullpen for an entirely different reason than Chamberlain.

      • Steve H

        Oh come on now. Ignore facts and logic when making points!!

  • hawkins44

    Ben, to suggest that a return to the bullpen couldn’t impact his velocity because as you say “it just won’t happen” is silly. Joba has stretches every start where for an inning or two he can throw 94-96 which is basically what he was throwing when he was relieving. What we do know is:

    1) He doesn’t have command or plan right now. It’s not just velocity. It appears his plan is to ensure that he gets to at least the 5th inning and not over work himseft early on. You see this because he’s nibbling and avoiding contact. That = lots of pitches and lots of walks….. BJobbers having been saying this for over a year..we can ALL see it. This fact makes him a good pitcher, but borderline AAA/MLB. If you account for some the unearned run breaks he’s received his ERA should be around 5.

    2) Both points above are getting worse as his innings increase….

    Which leads to the final point, the one that has been made by BJobbers the whole year… is the TEAM better with him in the 7th and 8th inning and Hughes in the rotation?

    We’re not the Royals.. if you have Joba and you’re the Royals it’s a no brainer, I get it… and please no stupid “put CC in the pen” comments.

    He’s not one of the best 5 pitchers we have assuming a healthy Wang.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      Which leads to the final point, the one that has been made by BJobbers the whole year… is the TEAM better with him in the 7th and 8th inning and Hughes in the rotation?

      Probably not. Hughes didn’t exactly sparkle as a starter, did he? He went more than five innings only twice and gave up at least three runs in each start but two.

    • Accent Shallow

      He’s not one of the best 5 pitchers we have assuming a healthy Wang.

      This point is very debatable (Joba v. Hughes is very close, and Andy’s rotation spot is only secure because of his service time), not to mention “healthy Wang.” I’m very worried that we won’t see that until 2010, when he’s had an offseason to get his legs under him, or until after I get that gonorrhea checked out.

  • http://anewfrontier.wordpress.com Pablo Zevallos

    Just wondering–could it be a weight issue? I saw him on YES slow-mo, and he looked pretty fat.

    • Bam Bam Balboni

      TV tends to add 10 pounds.lol.

  • Bam Bam Balboni

    Well look at the brightside. Joba is 23 and not 33. Most young pitchers struggle in the beginning of their careers until they just get it, it all just comes together. The same hopefully will happen with Joba.

  • lohuds better

    dont say it was him being in the bullpens fault ,atleast say that he changed when had that shoulder injury last year.

  • http://thebronxbombersblog.com Vin R,

    I’m just tired of hearing “I made great pitches throughout”. he hasn’t pitched well, own up to it.

  • http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Rebecca-Optimist Prime

    Heh, reading this thread I thought the Yankees were five games under…

  • Accent Shallow

    It’s definitely odd to watch Joba struggle like this, since it seemed he hardly missed a beat last year after transitioning to the rotation. I wonder if skipping his first post-AS break start would help him going forward, or if he needs the routine of pitching every five days?

    Clearly, the Yankees can’t keep running him out there if he’s going to pitch like this, can they? Obviously he’s not a finished product yet, so he’s going to struggle, but the front office will lose patience at some point, and I wonder when that is.

    I hope the shoulder is ok, but what struck me the most last night was that his slider looked pretty flat. Of course, that could just be an odd view, since I don’t watch many Angels’ games.

    • Craig

      The front office is not like the majority of fans. They understand the career path of young pitchers and are not going to lose patience with a 23 year old power pitcher.

      • Doug

        who’s lost his power

  • YankeeScribe

    Send him to the minors…

    • Craig

      Not smart. You want Sergio Mitre, Jason Johnson or Kei Igawa to take the ball every fifth day? Didn’t think so.

  • Steve H

    23 year old Roy Halladay: 10.64 ERA and 2.20 Whip. Shoulda put him in the pen!!!

    B-Jobbers fail.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

      No, but they did send him to the minors to right himself.

      • Steve H

        Which I would fully support. Anything but the pen. I would have no problem sending him down to get straightened out (not Oliver Perez style either). Bring up Mitre for a few starts, can’t be worse than what Joba has been giving us and let Joba truly straighten himself out.

        • Craig

          Wasn’t Halladay coming off of TJ surgery not long before they sent him down?

          • Steve H

            No. Just struggling, as 23 year old pitchers tend to do. He also had a more MLB experience than Joba had while getting crushed.

    • http://thebronxbombersblog.com Vin R,

      Joba will never have halladay’s smarts

      • Steve H

        How smart was Hallady with the era over 10?

  • Doug

    With these 9 days between starts, they should send him to Dr. Andrews and get his shoulder checked out. If it comes back clean, give him one more start after the break and see if he shows a bit of improvement. A sliver is all I ask. If not, he’s got to go back to SWB to get himself straightened out. After all, these games count up here, down there they do not.

  • http://twitter.com/JamalG Jamal G.

    It’s amazing that while these guys were coming up and during the 2007-3008 off-season trade discussions of Johan Santana, everyone was preaching patience with young starters; letting them go through growing pains; letting them take their lumps as a plethora of young starting pitchers have in the myriad seasons gone by.

    Now, when we are actually experienceing said growing pains and struggles, a lot of people seem to be turning their backs on every single word they spouted beforehand. I realy don’t understand it.

    This is the type of thing that Joba Chamberlain – or any young starter in the Major Leagues – was going to suffer through in his first few years – rampant inconsistency. I swear, it’s like some of you said one thing, but was not prepared in any which way to deal with the potential fact(s) of what you were saying (re: being patient with young starters because they are going to suck for a bit).

    • http://twitter.com/JamalG Jamal G.

      Note to self: Stop typing comments ten minutes after you wake up.

  • YankeesFanInMI

    I come to this site for interesting, informed, and well thought out news about the Yankees, and for the last few days all that’s been on here about Joba is just garbage. If I didn’t know better, after reading this post I’d think Joba was the worst pitcher in the league on the worst team in the league. Damn, the team goes 13 of 15 or 14 of 16, whatever it was, and finally has a bad loss with Joba once again struggling and the whole world’s gone to hell. The kid is 23 years old and has never pitched a real full season in the big leagues, give him some time. Hughes moves in to the bullpen and everyone’s ready to anoint him king of the universe. He’s doing much better and for that I’m glad, but if you’re going to talk only about potential, based on past bullpen performance, Hughes has nothing on Joba. He was touching triple digits with his fastball, combined with an 88 mph slider that was nearly unhittable. Hughes is getting his fastball up to 95 now and it’s the greatest thing ever. Give these guys some time. Let Joba and Hughes get in to the rotation for a steady period of time. They both still have amazing potential, and throwing out ridiculous knee jerk reactions isn’t going to change that.

    • Steve H

      That post should end the discussion. Well said.

    • Doug

      “He was touching triple digits with his fastball, combined with an 88 mph slider that was nearly unhittable.”

      yes, but that was nearly 2 years ago. the question is, where has that stuff gone to?

    • http://thebronxbombersblog.com Vin R,

      “Hughes moves in to the bullpen and everyone’s ready to anoint him king of the universe.”

      I’m pretty sure Joba was anointed king in ’07. it’s a 4 year term.

    • cr1

      Agreed. He’s a kid, his pride and optimism serve him well in making him sure enough of himself to keep seeing that bright future ahead (but sometimes make him look foolish to others), and he was intended to serve as our fifth starter this season, not our ace.

      Plus, unless we have clearly better alternatives to throw out there every five days the team gains nothing from sending him to Scranton.

  • Kevin Greene

    I am sorry i have to say i have changed my tune about Joba, How can anyone say that his stuff would not return if placed in the bullpen…. Phil Huges is hitting 96 on the gun now that he is in the pen adding 3 mph….

    And the stuff is not gone bc you see flashes of the nasty sliders and the overpowering fastball, but they are few and far between. How is everyone who thinks be belongs as a starter ( and i will admit i was firmly in that camp ) discounting completely the mental aspect of this game, he had an edge in the bullpen MENTALLY, his stuff is not gone he is just a guy who dominated who hit a rough patch and now is going through what any 23 year old kid would go through when he gets knocked down a peg.

    One thing is for sure, starter or reliver, he needs to be out of the rotation right now. HOWEVER there is no way you can send him down to the minors that would just make him even more of a head case, it is starting to look like the yankees messed with the golden goose, an he no longer produces golden eggs.

    I think it is time to put him in the pen, and see if he can regain his confidence…. just like hughes, who is now dominating, baseball is so mental, and i think folks here are forgetting that.

    • Craig

      You need to relax too. Do I need to go through the list of MLB All-Stars and future Hall of Famers that struggled and even flat-out SUCKED when they were 23? I’m sure most, if not all, of them lost their confidence at one point and regained it down the line. It appears that too many Yankees fans have no knowledge of baseball precedent outside of The Bronx. Take a look back at history and around the league. 23 year olds, experiencing their first full season of starting, DO NOT get yanked back and fourth from the rotation to the bullpen.

  • Matt

    He is not the same pitcher since the injury. He also doesnt appear to be mentally tough. They talked about unearned runs on the telecast last night, and he has a big gap, meaning he doesnt pick up his teammates when errors are made, which will happen. He is delusional with these post game quotes too. Think of how good he was out of the pen and imagine if the yanks have had that the whole time. Another good move by Cashman. You know how I know its a bad move to start him, its what Hank thinks is best. Whatever Hank thinks is right, the other way is the way to go.

    And somebody tell me what happens when he reaches his innings limit before the end of August? What then?

    • Steve H

      23 year old Roy Halladay: 10.64 ERA and 2.20 Whip.

      How mentally tough was he?

      • Kevin Greene

        You cant just compare pitchers like that, Joba and halladay are COMPLETELY different, halladay is the rivera of starting pitchers, pinpoint control, fantastic movement, that is something you have to learn how to accomplish. Joba is just getting hit and is someone who never had great control but his stuff was around the zone and so nasty that folks could not lay off… that edge is gone…. for now

        • Steve H

          Did Halladay have pinpoint control and fantastic movement while getting shelled as a 23 year old? No, he learned it as he got older, just like Joba could.

          • Craig

            Matt, how about this? Whatever you and all you BJobbers think, I’ll go the opposite. Who knows for sure what effect the shoulder injury is having/had and, clearly, as a starter he is not going to flirt with 100 very often, it at all. However, instead of panicking about his “loss of stuff” maybe consider that he’s pacing himself in the starting role. I imagine finding the balance of steadily emptying your tank in a start is not something that happens overnight. Before you knock Cashman, I hope you realize that he deserves much of the credit for righting a ship that was on its way to an epic failure. A failure far worse and more embarrassing than last years 89 win, no playoff display.

    • Kevin Greene

      Exactly, he was going to wind up in the pen anyway this season at some point due to that limit, but at this rate he is not even making 5 innings, so maybe he wont even reach that mark.

  • voIII

    Anybody who has watched Joba shake off sign after sign from Jorge or Jose, (both veteran catchers who know the league extremely well) knows that Joba’s problem is that of maturity. He needs time in AAA to correct an ego problem. Then when he is brought up again, you decide whether or not he’s a starter…

  • celerinosanchez

    He seems to get a case of Mike Mussina Nibbleitis. 0-2, 1-2 counts turn into 3-2 counts. Another thing, any chance he is tipping his pitches? I’m seeing mediocre hitters lay off some nasty sliders and hit fastballs like they know they are coming.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      There could actually be something to this. Joba’s getting 3% less swinging strikes this season as a stater than he was as a starter last season.

      • Doug

        well, his stuff isn’t as good either

        • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

          He’s also throwing his slider a good deal less than he did last year so that could be part of it.

          • Charlie

            i don’t know, that first pitch homer to morales yesterday looked a little suspicious

            • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

              I blame A-Rod.

          • Doug

            and he’s not throwing his curve at all. i think he threw 5 all night. when a pitcher loses “stuff”, he’s got to learn to locate his pitches better AND he needs more pitches to throw the hitter off. start throwing the curve and change-up more. and if he doesn’t have confidence in them right now, that’s why you send him back down to the minors. build up confidence in them down there.

  • Bannister

    Anyone still say the Yankees are better than the Rays?

    I just hope both teams make it…because I think the Rays are the best team in baseball.

    • YankeesFanInMI

      Yes, I do think the Yankees are better than the Rays.

  • Hova

    The bullpen is not the answer. Please send him down to the minors. This guy does not deserve to be in the rotation right now. Its ridiculous. He is awful. Hopefully a few weeks down in the minors fixes him and he can come back in mid-August and be an impact starter again.

    I’m shocked by the denial. I don’t understand it. Is he kidding himself? Does he realize he doesn’t even give his team a chance to win. The guy can’t last more than four or five innings. He’s not right.

    I’m extremely frustrated. This is a world series contending team. The lineup is excellent, the bullpen is incredible with Mo, Hughes and Aceves, and we have 2 top of the line starters. Please send Joba to the minors to figure his shit out and be ready for the home stretch. He has to give this team a chance to win with his starts. We’re going to need them come playoff time.

    • Troy

      Excellent post, and I completely agree with everything you said.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      I wouldn’t be opposed to Chamberlain going down to the minors but who’s going to replace him? Hughes isn’t stretched out enough and probably wouldn’t represent much of an upgrade over Chamberlain and I don’t think they want to use Mitre for more than one or two starts.

      • charlespoet

        Don’t you think that is part of the problem that they panicked and brought wang back to soon and have not appropriately stretched out Hughes?

        Joba to me is a dominant pitcher IF he ever gets his head straight. He thinks to much as a pitcher, so to speak, rather than just throwing strikes – if that makes sense.

        I think at this point, the Yankees should hedge their bets with Hughes and start stretching as much as possible. This one inning crap is not helping him at all.

        • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

          Don’t you think that is part of the problem that they panicked and brought wang back to soon and have not appropriately stretched out Hughes?

          Oh yeah. That was an awful, awful move, IMO.

          I think at this point, the Yankees should hedge their bets with Hughes and start stretching as much as possible. This one inning crap is not helping him at all.

          I agree; it hurts the team now and in the future.

      • Ace

        I agree Matt. Its tough to replace him right now. But if calling up Mitre and having him struggle through starts allows the Yankees to fix the issues Joba is having, I’m good. I won’t say one bag thing about Mitre if I know the Yankees pitching coaches are getting Joba to the form we all know he can be.

        Then come August he comes back and is ready to dominate again. Its worth the chance that Mitre crashes and burns as a starter in the majors.

        • Steve H

          Agreed. If Mitre comes up and performs the same way as Joba, it has no adverse effect on the MLB team, while also getting Joba back to where he needs to be. Plus, there’s always the chance that Mitre outperforms Joba (the recent Joba) and gives us a better chance every 5 days.

        • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

          Word, that’s a good assessment and I could easily get on board with that line of thinking.

  • charlespoet

    well said.

    • Craig

      No, no, not well said because it is horribly short-sighted. Fans cite mental and maturity issues but what do you think sending him to AAA is going to accomplish? It will probably make things WORSE in the long run. All these things – developing a plan, mound composure – are things that he’s got to learn AT THE MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL. HELLOOO?!?! Are we just going to send him to the bullpen or minors for every single growing pain? David Price hasn’t been good, put him in the pen; Tommy Hanson is going to struggle next year, but it’s no biggie, he’ll just get sent back to AAA. Ridiculous.

  • TJ

    I’m down on both Joba and Hughes. I still think that Hughes and Kennedy should have been dealt with Melky for Santana. Joba should be moved with Melky and a couple prospects for Doc and Wells.

  • TJ

    Reasoning: Joba is not a starter, he really does not have the depth of pitches to be a starter, he is basically a flamethower with a slider, great as a closer or an eighth inning guy.

    Hughes is more of a starter and has more potential, but he’s no Santana or Halliday. He will never been one of those. He’s not an ace type pitcher.

    Both still have high value, one should go or we will miss the playoffs. Right now the rotation looks very bad after 1-2-3

    • Steve H

      Wrong.

      • TJ

        Great rationale, awesome argument. WRONG! WHY wrong?

        • Steve H

          Thanks. I’ll make it simple. You are dead wrong about Joba’s “depth of pitches”. He has more depth of pitches than Josh Beckett. Josh Beckett, if you haven’t noticed, is having quite a bit of success as a starter.

          • Doug

            bur he’s not using them right now. and that’s part of his problem.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      Reasoning: Joba is not a starter, he really does not have the depth of pitches to be a starter, he is basically a flamethower with a slider, great as a closer or an eighth inning guy.

      Really? He has a good fastball, a very good slider, a good curveball, and a workable changeup. How is that not the “depth of pitches” required to be a starter?

      Hughes is more of a starter and has more potential, but he’s no Santana or Halliday. He will never been one of those. He’s not an ace type pitcher.

      How is Hughes more of a starter with better potential? I’d say they’re about even as starters, but Chamberlain’s stuff gives him much better potential, IMO.

      • TJ

        Yes, really. His curve and change up are not starter quality pitches, too much reliance on the fastball and he gets hammered. He does not not change speeds well enough to be a starter.

        Hughes shows the ability to change speeds better, however his fastball is low 90’s.

        Trade both for all I care, I thinkt hey are both overrated outside of bullpen use.

        • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

          The difference between Chamberlain’s fastball and his change up this season is over 10 MPH. Last year The difference between Hughes’ fastball and changeup is less than 9 MPH. Who’s changing speeds more effectively?

          Joba’s changeup is his least effective pitch, but it’s still a good changeup. His curveball isn’t as good as his slider, but it’s still a good breaking pitch. Joba’s got 3 good-very good pitches and 1 average pitch. That’s usually what starters have.

          • Doug

            yes, he’s got 4 average to above-average pitches, but for whatever reason he’s not throwing his secondary pitches right now. as joe p. said, of his 94 pitches, 87 were either the fastball or curve. he can’t be a 2-pitch pitcher as a starter. if he’s lost confidence in them, send him down to regain it.

  • KDB

    Joba can’t go into the pen. Not enough speed on the fastball, it takes him innings to get to 96, he refuses to listen to his catcher,
    and if his fastball isn’t working, and it isn’t, he has little or no confidence in his out pitch, the slider. Demote him, or package him.

  • R.Kelly39

    I traded for Joba on my fantasy team early in the year not only because I’m a Yankee fan, and I like to double-down. Based upon to what I’ve seen live, and on TV, and what I’ve read, the guy is a natural born strikeout pitcher. He’s not Moose. He’s not James Shields. He’s a young guy with the potential to reach down deep inside and humiliate David Ortiz on live TV. I think the pressure to make it through the young part of his career without blowing out his arm like, say, Kerry Wood, has made him forget who he is. Agreed, a trip to the minors might help. But at some point the brass needs to take the reigns off this kid and let him throw heat. It worked for pitchers in the old days.

  • Hova

    To all the “put Hughes back in the rotation” people. I appreciate the love for Phil, but its not the best move right now. He isn’t stretched out, and more importantly our bullpen has a night and day difference without him. If Phil leaves the BP, the only guys we can trust in high leverage spots are Mo and Aceves (I like Coke but he’s still young and makes mistakes).

    I’m not nearly as good with all the stat stuff the RAB brethren are, but Phil in the bullpen is a game changer. If Aceves has to go heavy one night, we know Phil is there the next day to give us quality innings in big spots.

    Daniel Bard? Michael Bowden? F-that. Mark my words. They will fear bullpen Phil Hughes come playoff time.

  • bart

    starter was predicated on 4 pitch electric stuff — if the major premise is flawed maybe you reevaluate

    mayb joba can throw with abandon for 1-2 innings but trying to conserve pitches to go 7 he is simply unable — without velocity he is trying to be cute — the curve balls are responsible for the home runs

    if you leave him as starter then cut the nonsense — he should not be permitted to shake off catchers – simplify to fb slider — Burnett is a study in a 2 pitch approach – maybe joba can be better, but simplify one step at a time — with current results Hughes should be in the rotation and Joba in the pen but with wang down the Yankees need them both

  • GD

    These blog entries just seem to be in denial.

    How on EARTH can you equate Joba’s time in the bullpen as a reason why he suddenly now sucks as a starter? Jesus, if that isn’t ever a baseless assumption I don’t know what is.

    Moreover, why wouldn’t moving Joba back to the bullpen help him? It’s obviously helped Phil Hughes. He’s regained his confidence, swagger, and his feel for his pitches. But no, this would NEVER work for the mighty Joba.

    Let it go, people. Joba is not savior of the starting rotation. The fact he was a starter in college means absolutely nothing. There are a TON of major league relief pitchers that started in college. It’s a fact of life.

    Joba as a starter has shown he has little discipline, no rhythm, is uncooperative with catchers, etc. He looks tired, confused, and lost. Joba has a starter also tempers down his intensity by neccessity, which is something I feel he he needs tuned up to pitch effectively.

    Joba makes a better reliever because he doesn’t need to spread himself out over 6-7 innings. He can come in, get geeked up, and let it rip for 1-2 innings. Thats why he was successful in the pen, and I’m more than willing to wager he’d regain some of his velocity if he found his way back there.

    But instead we’ll continue to let him ruin himself start after start, and continue to ruin Phil Hughes. Has everyone forgotten Phil Hughes always was and has been a better prospect?

    • Steve H

      Rolls eyes.

      • GD

        Great reply. You have nothing to say because there isn’t a reasonable argument. Keep rolling eyes – just like I do every time I have to suffer through another Joba start.

        • Steve H

          Look up, I’ve had plenty to say.

          Were you rolling your eyes when a 23 year old Roy Halladay put up a 10.64 ERA and 2.20 Whip?

          • Doug

            but Steve, the fact that he’s working with diminished stuff, wouldn’t a trip to the minors, to develop a bit more command and more confidence in his secondary pitches, make some sense?

            • Steve H

              I certainly wouldn’t mind the trip to the minors (see above). Just not back to the pen, as GD was suggesting.

              • Doug

                okay. just don’t understand why the powers-that-be don’t consider this.

                first thing i would do though is get him on a plane to see dr. andrews. make sure that shoulder is structurally sound

                • Steve H

                  I would send him to Andrews as well, at the very least if/when he checks out fine, it could help Joba’s mentality. He really could be trying to hold back for fear of re-injuring his shoulder, which is just making him ineffective.

                • Doug

                  i can see that too

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      Moreover, why wouldn’t moving Joba back to the bullpen help him? It’s obviously helped Phil Hughes. He’s regained his confidence, swagger, and his feel for his pitches. But no, this would NEVER work for the mighty Joba.

      Because moving him back to the bullpen could expose him to an injury risk. As for Hughes and his pitches, we’ve seen him use his cutter much less out of the bullpen which will no doubt affect him later on/next year when he re-joins the rotation. Joba in the pen would probably use fastball/slider and those are his two pitches which are most developed. I’d rather he further his development of his curveball/changeup, something he may not be able to do as a reliever.

      Let it go, people. Joba is not savior of the starting rotation.

      I’m glad you know this after he’s made 29 starts in his career.

      There are a TON of major league relief pitchers that started in college. It’s a fact of life.

      And most of them became relievers because they didn’t have enough pitches to be a starter or were failed starters. Neither one of those things applies to Joba Chamberlain yet.

      Joba as a starter has shown he has little discipline, no rhythm, is uncooperative with catchers, etc. He looks tired, confused, and lost. Joba has a starter also tempers down his intensity by neccessity, which is something I feel he he needs tuned up to pitch effectively.

      He’s also 23 and in his first full season as a starting pitcher. He isn’t going to be perfect right away. Believe it or not, most 23 year olds aren’t perfectly polished pitchers. Chamberlain is still learning how to pitch and is no where near a finished product.

      Joba makes a better reliever because he doesn’t need to spread himself out over 6-7 innings.

      The same could be said about every starting pitcher.

      He can come in, get geeked up, and let it rip for 1-2 innings. Thats why he was successful in the pen, and I’m more than willing to wager he’d regain some of his velocity if he found his way back there.

      That doesn’t mean he should go back to the bullpen (somewhere he never should’ve been in the first place). It hurts the team in a variety of ways. One, it takes a starter, for whom there probably isn’t an adequate replacement right now, out of the rotation. Two, starters, even average ones, are more valuable to the team than good-great relievers.

      But instead we’ll continue to let him ruin himself start after start, and continue to ruin Phil Hughes. Has everyone forgotten Phil Hughes always was and has been a better prospect?

      You show patience with one prospect but not the other. Why? Is it because you saw Joba in the bullpen in 2007 and assumed that’s where he should be? Talk about confirmation bias. Neither Hughes nor Chamberlain should be in the bullpen unless they prove over the next 4-5 years that they absolutely cannot handle starting pitching. Joba is hardly “ruining himself” by struggling as a starter. What he’s going through is the growing pains of developing as a starting pitcher and it’s not something we’re used to seeing as Yankee fans because of the team’s recent lack of development of starting pitchers. Hitting the panic button and throwing Chamberlain back into the bullpen hurts his development and the team’s chances.

      • GD

        You make lots of great points, I respect your reply for actually responding with intelligent discussion.

        The problem is, as many people have said, we’re not dealing with the Pittsburgh Pirates. Like it or not, the reality of the situation is the New York Yankees are filled with very costly veterans and are built to win now.

        As much as I would love for Joba to spend the next 3 seasons to “find himself”, the Yankees aren’t built to afford him the luxury of giving him his baby bottle and telling him to take his time.

        Joba should have stayed in the bullpen. Why? Not because it’s best for Joba, but because it is the best for the Yankees. Would Joba likely be a great starter? Sure. But you know who else is supposed to be a great starter? Phil Hughes. Ian Kennedy. Zach Groenke. There are a slew of kids in the farm system. The yankees don’t want to trade any of them.

        At some point we’re going to run out of room. At some point we’re going to need a replacement for Mariano Rivera. Joba proved he could handle that role. Does he like the role? No. Could he be a starter? Sure. But his body and pitching style would allow him to be a successful reliever/closer than any of the other young yankee starting pitchers.

        I also don’t care what anyone says, Phil Hughes is a better quality prospect than Joba Chamberlain. While their individual skillsets may equal each other in effectiveness, Hughes has shown the temperment and attitude to be a starting pitcher. It seems pretty obvious that Joba’s personality illustrates he has the internal makeup that would make for a great reliever.

        I’m absolutely all for using our home grown talent. Realistically, we have too much. We’re either going to have trade it at some point, or utilize it in unique ways to make use of it. Joba being kept in the bullpen this whole time would have allowed that to start course.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

          the Yankees aren’t built to afford him the luxury of giving him his baby bottle and telling him to take his time.

          Actually, they are. By signing CC and A.J. and retaining the services of Wang and Pettitte for this year, the Yanks went into the season with Joba as the 5th starter. On paper, that’s nuts. Joba Chamberlain, fifth starter! They did it precisely so he could take his time to develop while still contributing.

          But as we know, the best laid plans of mice and men…Wang got hurt, Pettitte’s been so-so. Still, the Yanks do have that luxury really.

          • GD

            For obviously being with the group of people thinking big picture…you’re talking about ONE SEASON?

            I just sat through pages of posts on how Doc Holliday sucked as a rookie, etc etc etc.

            All of these great starting pitchers took YEARS to develop, not a single season. You’re argument just proved my point exactly. Their BEST plan was giving Joba ONE year to hone his skills. And even now it’s not enough because of what you just stated happened.

            The Yankees are bent on winning every single year. What Joba is doing is not enough for them, and they know it.

            If the Yankees aren’t focused on winning, why is Hughes is in the bullpen? He’s just as good as Joba, isn’t he? Shouldn’t he be in the minors so he doesn’t “hurt his growth and development?”

            The reason Joba is still starting is because they screwed themselves. He can’t go to the bullpen right now, and a demotion to AAA would be terrible.

            Stop thinking the Yankees are into long-term growing at the MLB level.

            • Steve H

              So if Joba pitched for any other team, you think he should be a starter? But for the Yankees, it’s bullpen or bust?

          • YankeeScribe

            We barely have the luxury now and definitely won’t by October. As of today, we have no reliable #3 and 4 starters to follow CC and AJ in the postseason.

            As someone posted earlier, the Yanks are built to win now with veteran free agents and an aging core(Jeter, Posada, and Mo) so it’s perfectly understandable that people beginning to lose patience. If we were the Orioles or the Pirates, we could afford to let these guys work out their mechanics in the big leagues but we’re in contention so we don’t have the luxury…

            • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

              The Yankees aren’t built to just win now. As they’re currently constructed, they’re built to win now and in the future, just like always. It’s not like the Yankees have a 1-2 year window in which to win before they’re able to compete again. They compete every year and are built to win now and five years from now.

              • YankeeScribe

                I agree but since no one can predict the future and the Yanks are currently in contention, they have to make decisions that put them in the best position to go all the way this year.

                I don’t know whether Joba’s problems are mental or mechanical but here’s my feeling.

                Pitchers struggling with confidence should be sent to the pen so they can build confidence 1-2 innings at a time. Pitchers struggling with mechanics should be sent to the minors so they can develop without the pressure of a team in contention.

        • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

          The problem is, as many people have said, we’re not dealing with the Pittsburgh Pirates. Like it or not, the reality of the situation is the New York Yankees are filled with very costly veterans and are built to win now.

          No they’re not. They’re built to win now and later. The ’08 Brewers were a win now team. The Yankees are a win now and next year and the year after that and the year after that…team.

          As much as I would love for Joba to spend the next 3 seasons to “find himself”, the Yankees aren’t built to afford him the luxury of giving him his baby bottle and telling him to take his time.

          I don’t think it’s going to take him that long to find himself as a starter and become very good, hell, I think with a little work/luck he could do it this season. Again, I disagree with your assessment of the team’s makeup and agree with what Ben said. It’s not like they went into this season, or intend to go into next season, with Joba as the #1/#2 guy.

          Joba should have stayed in the bullpen. Why? Not because it’s best for Joba, but because it is the best for the Yankees.

          And I highly disagree. Even if you told me that Joba becomes an Andy Pettitte type starter (which I think he’ll fare exceed–he’ll give up fewer hits and strike many more guys out), I’d rather he do that than become the next great Yankee closer. Those innings he’d accumulate as a starter would be more valuable to the team than as a reliever.

          Would Joba likely be a great starter? Sure.

          Then why take him out of the rotation? Would you rather have a great starter or a great reliever? I think that choice is pretty obvious.

          But you know who else is supposed to be a great starter? Phil Hughes. Ian Kennedy. Zach Groenke. There

          Hughes could still be a real good starter and was projected as such. That’s why I’m annoyed he’s still in the bullpen. As for Kennedy, I’m pretty sure no one, scouts, GMs, talent evaluators, analysts, etc., thought he would be a “great starter.” From what I remember hearing, his ceiling was always as a #3 guy. As for Kroenke, I don’t think anyone has any aspirations for him to be a starter in the long term. It’s not like he’s Brackman or Betances or Bliech or Z-Mac.

          <strong.There are a slew of kids in the farm system. The yankees don’t want to trade any of them.

          If it’s the right package, they’d do it. The only untouchable in the system right now is the Jesus.

          At some point we’re going to run out of room. At some point we’re going to need a replacement for Mariano Rivera. Joba proved he could handle that role. Does he like the role? No. Could he be a starter? Sure. But his body and pitching style would allow him to be a successful reliever/closer than any of the other young yankee starting pitchers.

          Run out of room for what? There’s always room for good starters and having too many of them is always a good thing. The replacement for Rivera doesn’t need to be found right now. When that time comes, I’d rather the Yankees use a real reliever–Bruney, Marte, WDLR, Dunn, Melancon, etc.–to replace Rivera rather than convert a starter (unless said starter has failed as a starter).

          I also don’t care what anyone says, Phil Hughes is a better quality prospect than Joba Chamberlain. While their individual skillsets may equal each other in effectiveness, Hughes has shown the temperment and attitude to be a starting pitcher. It seems pretty obvious that Joba’s personality illustrates he has the internal makeup that would make for a great reliever

          How has Hughes shown that temperment? He’s been exactly the same as Chamberlain has as a stater–inconsitent with flashes of absolute brilliance. The only reason you see that from Chamberlain is because you saw him in the bullpen for the big league club in 2007. If you saw him pitching out of the rotation in Trenton or Scranton all that year, I doubt you would’ve said that. I could say that same thing about A.J. since he, like Joba, is a big dude who throws hard and gets pumped up when he has success, and the same goes for Sabathia as well. And, let’s look at Rivera. He has the total opposite mentality of the boisterousness we see out of guys like Chamberlain. Should he be moved out of the bullpen because of it? A guy’s “mentality” is incredibly superfluous in determining where he should pitch.

          I’m absolutely all for using our home grown talent. Realistically, we have too much.

          Really? How many pitchers in the Yankees’ system right now are better pitchers than Joba? I’d say zero. None of them, excluding Hughes since he too is on the big league team, could probably come close to what Joba is doing at the ML level right now, shaky as it may be.

          Joba being kept in the bullpen this whole time would have allowed that to start course.

          What? No. This doesn’t make any sense. Not only would it have hurt the Yankees in the short term by weakening the rotation, but it would’ve hurt them in the long run to sell of prospects that they really don’t have. I think you’re severely overrating the pitching talent in the Yankees’ system.

      • Steve H

        That. Just. Happened.

        • GD

          We have George Constanza here. Since you have nothing intelligent to say, you let everyone else argue for you. Then, you follow up with your witty little “one-liner”, and than it’s see you later. Glad you found your calling in life.

          • Steve H

            My calling in life is working for Vandelay Industries.

          • Steve H

            Oh, and I’m allowed to let Matt ACTY/BBD argue for me. I’m his VP.

            • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

              Power sharing, ftw!

  • jai Nitai

    Joba is suffering from Rick Vaughn’s disease, Savin’-my-arm-itis. He caught it from Burnette.

  • http://www.riveraveblues.com Benjamin Kabak

    I realize I’m a little late to my own party, but I was asleep and then had some errands to run. I’d like to say a few things.

    1. The reason why we can assume that Joba’s stuff won’t magically return in the bullpen is because we have real data from it. After his arm injury, Joba was in the pen, throwing just as hard as he is now. That is, low-90s with the some oomph he had before the shoulder injury. To me, that indicates a shoulder weakness.

    2. There’s patience and then there’s patience. Joba has made 17 starts — 16 if you remove that aborted effort in May when he left with a knee bruise. He’s averaging around 5.5 IP a start in those 16 outings. He’s not being efficient, and he’s not getting out hitters. It’s not even, as Jamal keeps saying, a matter of inconsistency. He’s been consistent but not in the right way.

    3. I’m not saying the Yanks should give up on Joba or exile him to Kei Igawa land. But the team and the pitcher can’t keep on acting as though everything is hunky dory. Opponents are hitting .282/.372/.445 off of him. That’s not a good triple slash line for a pitcher, and it’s a .200-point jump in OPS over last year.

  • Pingback: Quick Bits: Joba « iYankees

  • Matt

    The Post today has two NL scouts who both say he is a reliever. And yes, maturity is a huge issue. He had a freckin OPEN bottle of Crown Royal on the seat when pulled over for DWI. And spare me the DWI excuses. You know how hard is to be pulled over for DWI? And its a serious crime that this country doesnt treat seriously. Like when LaRussa got nailed its all ‘oh we support Tony etc etc’. How about the fact that he could have killed someone. Chamberlain is a mental midget.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      The Post today has two NL scouts who both say he is a reliever.

      So? The Yankees aren’t going to make a knee jerk reaction move because of the opinion of two NL scouts.

      • GD

        Matt,

        It’s not a knee jerk reaction. It’s a professional opinion of two scouts, two of which share a view that a lot of people in their profession agree with.

        For better or worse, the Yankees have a tendency of waiting around and clinging to their decisions even when they aren’t right in the long-run.

        We’ve sat through countless abominations of decisions due to “patience”. In reality, I think Cashman has a bit too much pride and is very determined for the team to succeed on his terms first and foremost.

        • Steve H

          2 scouts. How many scouts say he belongs in the rotation?

          The majority.

          • The One

            Ozzie Guillen and Goose Gossage believe he should be in the bullpen as well…two guys I think know a little bit about baseball and the bullpen. Word around the team last year was they were all puzzled by him moving into the rotation. Posada originally said he thought Joba should be in the pen(before changing his tune out of nowhere). Despite the RAB “B-Jobber” stubbhorness and refusal to give any sort of credit to the other side of the argument, there are people who play the game, have played the game in the past (a HOF RELIEVER in Gossage), managed World Series teams, see him as a reliever for a variety of reasons.

            • Steve H

              But there is way too much evidence that an average starter is more valuable to a baseball team than a great reliever. Joba has the ability to be way more than an average starter. Until he is given a few years to prove that he can’t cut it as a starter, he belongs in the rotation. If this wasn’t how it was done in baseball, Halladay/Beckett/Lester, etc. would all be relievers today. They aren’t, for good reasons.

            • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

              Ozzie Guillen is the manager of an opposing team. Why should his opinion hold any value at all? Gossage is not a scout or a talent evaluator or a member of the Yankees’ staff. His opinion is probably well noted, but not taken into consideration.

              Word around the team last year was they were all puzzled by him moving into the rotation.

              According to who? And, that shouldn’t matter. They play the games, they don’t make the decisions for the team. I doubt the players all follow the minors closely and knew that he was a starter down there. They saw him relieve and figured “Okay, dude’s a reliever.”

              Posada originally said he thought Joba should be in the pen(before changing his tune out of nowhere).

              Jorge Posada is not paid to make personnel decisions for the Yankees. He’s paid to play. He also suffered from confirmation bias since he was out during Joba’s tenure as a starter in ’08.

              Despite the RAB “B-Jobber” stubbhorness and refusal to give any sort of credit to the other side of the argument, there are people who play the game, have played the game in the past (a HOF RELIEVER in Gossage), managed World Series teams, see him as a reliever for a variety of reasons.

              Just because they played the game or managed a team doesn’t mean they know what’s best for the ’09 and future Yankees. Sure, there are some okay points on the other side, but I think the Joba-to-the-rotation side has more than proved its side with data and facts.

        • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

          We’ve sat through countless abominations of decisions due to “patience”.

          Like what? The Yankees have never had to be patient with anyone because they’ve not developed a lot of people over the years. The last time they had to be patient was with Bernie and Jeter.

          • Steve H

            Refresh my memory, how did Bernie and Jeter turn out?

            Oh look at me go, another one liner.

    • YankeeScribe

      Hopefully Joba isn’t the next Sidney Ponson. Sidney had great stuff early in his career and projected to be a dominant starter but his lack of maturity and alcoholism prevented him from reaching his potential…

  • Steve H

    Jon Lester averaged 5 innings a start in his first 26 starts (age 22 and 23) with a 4.68 ERA and 1.57 WHIP. Why didn’t the Sox throw him in the pen?

    At 24 he turned into an all-star, ace caliber performer.

    Let’s breathe people. Joba, thru the same # of starts has outperformed one of the best young pitchers in the game.

  • LiveFromNewYork

    I was wondering if there are other pitchers who have a similar history and what results (other than Lester and Ponson neither of whom are completely analogous to me).

    If there was never a Joba in the pen, they’d either be looking to demote him (how much time did he spend in AAA if any?) or they would just let him work it out.

    I hate the pen-as-option for our young Yankee arms. Not many teams do this on a regular basis. Don’t like the precedent.

    • Steve H

      Great point. If there was never a Joba in the pen there wouldn’t be the clamoring for it. Jon Lester would be lights out in the pen. As would Lincecum. And CC. And every other great or even good starter. Because they weren’t brought up the same way, we never had to hear Lestah!!! to the pen, the way we here Joba to the pen.

  • TJ

    Trade both Hughes and Joba. They are both ovverrated.

    • Steve H

      Can they get us Hanley? If so, agreed. Who do you suggest they can/should trade them for?

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