Yanks just need a couple more solid weeks from Posada
ByThere was a collective cringe — or at least I hope there was — last night when Jorge Posada took a foul ball off the glove and came up in pain. It was the second time in just a few weeks that Posada took one off the left ring finger, though I could have sworn the worst one a few weeks ago hit his (exposed*) throwing hand. In any case, Posada says he re-aggravated the injury, and that it might not “heal until the season is over.” Unfortunately, the Yanks aren’t quite in a position where they can give Jorge an extended break. Which is why they need to rally the troops in the next two weeks. Putting just a little more distance between them and the Red Sox at this point could afford Jorge some rest.
* Sorry for the Posterisk, but it amazes me that Jorge has continued to leave his throwing hand exposed on nearly every pitch, and hasn’t broken his hand yet. We’re taught in Little League to stash that throwing hand behind our backs or directly behind the glove. By high school we’re taught to hide it behind our thigh. Posada learned how to be a catcher in the minors. I thought they would have taught him that there.
One thing Joe Girardi has stressed recently is resting his pitchers down the stretch. Andy Pettitte expressed excitement for this, saying that a fresh pitching staff will really help boost these guys. Now the Yankees have one more reason to extend that lead and play a comfortable September, and that’s Jorge. Maybe his finger won’t completely heal until the off-season, but they can mitigate some of the swelling and pain if they can give him two days off in a row, and can generally keep him out from behind the plate just about every other day.
Even now, the Yanks could give him some extended rest, but they probably can’t/don’t want to fit Francisco Cervelli onto the roster. They’re already playing short a position player because of Damaso Marte‘s return, so it looks like they’ll have to suck it up for the next five games. Jorge will play in only three of those — day game after a night game on Sunday, though I’d give him Saturday off — so his exposure will be limited.
If the Yanks are concerned about giving their pitchers a rest down the stretch, they should feel the same for Jorge. The guy is an incredible contributor to the team’s high-octane offense, and while Molina and Cervelli are better defenders, they don’t even come close to Jorge’s bat. They’ll need him come playoff time, meaning it’s of the utmost importance to keep him fresh in the season’s final month.
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I say give Posada a week off and just tug along with Molina.
the throwing hand out thing could just be a comfort thing. yes its taught in Little League but so is bunting. the Yankees have been extremely lucky like you said that it has not lead to a serious injury.
“yes its taught in Little League but so is bunting.”
But the throwing hand out thing isn’t a skill that has to be learned/worked on/perfected like bunting is. All the guy has to do is move his hand a few inches back, behind his thigh instead of in front of it.
but its something that you learn through repetition. i just think its a comfort thing. all catchers set up in different manners. he was also an infielder so maybe he was more comfortable keeping his throwing hand close to his glove.
“yes its taught in Little League but so is bunting.”
um…what?
sincerely,
NICK SWISHER
I don’t know… I mean, I guess it could be tough for some people to learn to keep their hand hidden either behind their thigh or back. I mean, anything’s possible. But, really, it’s not hard. Sit in a catcher’s crouch, and try it. I was a catcher once upon a time, and I can’t imagine why it would be hard for anyone to keep their throwing hand behind their thigh or back. It’s the simplest thing in the world. It’s not like learning to bunt well. A 5 year old could learn to keep their throwing hand hidden in about 20 seconds.
the bruised ring finger is definetly a concern but i doubt posada will take an extended rest simply because i dont think posada would let them sit him down for that long. i think he should put some kind of guard on that finger that won’t effect his throwing or hitting if that is possible but i just hope it doesn’t effect his hitting because he seems to be clicking at the plate right now.
“i doubt posada will take an extended rest simply because i dont think posada would let them sit him down for that long”
I hate this. If the best thing for the team is for you to sit down, SIT THE FUCK DOWN. That’s part of the manager’s job, to stand up to guys who are being stubborn or selfish.
The collective cringe should have been a lot greater than it was. Posada is invaluable, yet some people are still calling him a bad catcher who can’t call games. It’s a travesty considering what he’s done for the Yankees over the past 13 years.
More like 11 years, but you point stands. His numbers since ’98 have been damned good.
Career .277, .379, .479, .858 over 15 seasons has to be an argument for HoF, right?
considering how few catchers are in the Hall? for sure. Especially because I believe both Pudge and Piazza (the only non-Mauer catchers with more productive bats than Posada that have played recently) have been talked about as using PEDs
Just for the record – It’s actually 15 years if you include the one game he played for the Yanks in 1995 and also include this year. But the point still stands.
Jorge should get inducted. He probably won’t, but he should get in. Not only is he better than all but two of his contemporaries (and he’s better on defense than one and better on offense than the other), but he fits in well with the other HOF catchers.
This is one of the best questions we discuss. It gets easier if you don’t frame it as a yes/no question.
Posada is one of the best catchers of his generation, and is definitely a better player than many guys in the Hall, and probably many catchers.
I don’t think his career has been long enough, though, to make him a legit HOF’er. But even that’s arguable. Yeah, like 11 semi-full seasons…not alot. But there aren’t many catchers who play 15-20 full seasons.
The collective cringe should have been a lot greater than it was. Posada is invaluable, yet some people are still calling him a bad catcher who can’t call games. It’s a travesty considering what he’s done for the Yankees over the past 13 years.
I wouldn’t call it a travesty. People complain about lots of things. I don’t doubt for a minute that he’s a major reason behind the Yankees’ success over the last decade, as would be any guy who can play catcher and hit as well as he does.
Make no mistake, I have the utmost respect for him as a player and a team leader. I know how good he is.
But it’s ok to point out that he’s not the greatest defensive catcher. Doesn’t mean we don’t still love him.
What bothers me isn’t really poor defense, it’s what I believe is a personality problem in getting along with pitchers and calling games well. I said it here… http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ent-553729
It has been written that Jorge has an abrasive personality, and I think he takes his role as a team leader very seriously, and I think when you put those two things together, you are bound to have problems with pitchers. There have been many pitchers who have expressed problems with Posada (Mussina, Clemens, RJ, AJ, Chamberlain, maybe others), and Cone mentioned last night that Andy Pettitte has recently “started calling his own games.”
Jeter acknowledged his shortcomings(privately, not publicly) and worked with conditioning coaches to improve his defense. Maybe Jorge has tried to be better with game calling and working with pitchers, but if so, I haven’t seen any evidence of it. I think he’s stubborn and doesn’t “get it,” and this is just one part of his game he could probably improve.
Maybe all catchers have these issues, but we don’t hear about them because we only follow the Yankees. But I haven’t heard anything of this sort being said about other catchers with long careers, like Varitek, Munson, Pudge, etc.
Clemens apparently loved throwing to posada
Not at first he didn’t. Here’s how I imagine the exchange:
Jorge (trotting to mound): “Come on, meat, why don’t you want to throw the fastball here? You need to trust it and own it and tie him up inside strike three!”
Clemens: “Just STFU and catch the splitter away.”
Post game interview…
Clemens: “Jorge’s great, man, we were on the same page and it was just like playing catch. I have the utmost respect for him. He’s a great catcher.”
I notice that a lot of catchers in the majors keep their throwing hand exposed.
Come Tuesday, the Yankees can bring on some reserves. Then they can finally match up with the Sox…minor league depth at the major league level.
And the Mets!
For those who continue to complain about Posada, “he cant throw runners out, is terrible at calling a game, cant get on the same page as the pitcher,” etc. It didnt seem to be a problem when the Yankees were winning Championships or getting to the World Series (01-03). These are the same people who wanted A-rod outta here and then couldnt wait for him to come back when Cody Ransom, Ramiro Pena, Angel Berroa were playing third. Now everyone is in love with Cervelli who did a good job , better than expected. Posada is as important to this team as Jeter, Mariano, or even Arod. 2008 went down the drain as soon as Posada went away!
actually, i think the loss of wang was bigger in my opinion, but thats ok
That’s a bit strong, Cecilio. And it ain’t really correct, either.
You’re correct that he was a very important part of the Yankees success in the last 10 years. Maybe he’s been more valuable than ANY single Yankee during those years, I wouldn’t argue against that. But I don’t think you can blame 2008 on the loss of Posada…his offensive loss was more than made up for by an offensive surge from Giambi last season, compared to Giambi’s 2007 year. The pitching was awful last season…Jeter had a black hole period of several weeks, playing with a hand injury.
Defense at catching is important, and I’ve been one of the people critical of Jorge’s defense and game calling. But I’ll be the first to admit that even the most atrocious catcher/game caller isn’t going to influence the outcome of many ball games all that much. If Jorge’s defense cost the team 1 or 2 wins in a season I’d be surprised.
I’m sure his offensive contribution, however, accounts for many, many more wins per season.
So it is possible for a guy to be a lousy catcher, but still an important contributor to a team’s success.
He could do better at working with pitchers. And he should try to.
uh no, Giambi’s contributions in 2008 vs. 2007 didn’t come close to making up for Jorgie’s loss. Posada in 2007 had an epic offensive year. Fangraphs had him at 7.1 WAR, seven wins above a replacement catcher. His loss last year left the Yankees with a 0.8 WAR and a big fat 0.0 from Molina. Giambi went from 0.8 WAR in 2007 to 2.3 in 2008. So that’s a +1.5.
So Jorge’s loss alone accounted for about 5 wins. I’d say that makes Cecilio’s statement about 2008 pretty much spot on
I swear you guys are such nitpickers. So if we’re gonna do that….it isn’t relevant to use Jorge’s 2007 year as a comparison, either, because that was an unusually good year for him.
Here are OPS+ ratings in 2007: Posada 154, Giambi 108 (83g), Jeter (121), ARod (177), Matsui (123), Cano (120).
And ’08: Posada 103 (51g), Giambi 128, Jeter, 102, ARod 150, Matsui 108 (93g), Cano 86.
So while you Giambi didn’t completely replace Posada’s ’07 production, he certainly was one guy who had a big production increase for ’08. And, obviously, many guys slumped in ’08, so blaming it all on Posada is a stretch.
Here’s what’s funny…the 2008 team scored about 180 fewer runs than the 07 team, and gave up about 50 less. So while I’d still argue that its wrong to blame 2008 on Posada’s absence, pitching was actually better than in 07. Oh well.
Yeah 2008 is a really bad example if you want to compare. There were numerous reasons why 2008 sucked. Jorge is a part of it. He was a huge part of it. But he wasn’t the only part of it. It doesn’t make sense saying “Since Jorge got injured last year and couldn’t play and that team sucked, it means the team sucks without Jorge.” Sure I’m exaggerating a bit but that’s the kind of feeling I’m seeing.
Lots of factors contributed to the bad 2008 team. First of all bad pitching. Really bad pitching. IPK and Hughes didn’t work out. CMW got injured. Pettitte was ineffective due to his elbow problems. I mean the Yanks had to rely on guys like Ponson and Rasner.
Then there’s the offense. Jorge got injured and the Yanks relied on Molina and his .500 OPS or something to catch everyday. Matsui also got injured and missed out a lot of time in the year. Cano was slumping terribly that year. They relied on bad Melky. Jeter had his second worst season actually BA and OBP be damned. As a side note he hit .300 and had a OBP of .363 but a poor slugging made his OPS .771
I mean this is arguably Jeter’s worst seasons and he still hits 300. The dude’s a beast.
Anyways saying that losing Jorge will have a 2008-ish effect makes no sense since all those other factors are gone. Pitching is heavily improved. The offense got Matsui back, a regular god like Jeter, and a really improved Cano. They CAN live with Molina catching a few games. They CAN carry Jorge this year.
But I’m not saying Posada sucks or he is invaluable. Believe me I love Jorge. He’s definitely one of the top catchers in the league after Mauer. But having Molina catch sometimes especially when Jorge needs a rest is fine by me.
i”d prefer a couple 5 game losing streaks from the red sox instead…
The Sox have 20 games remaining at home out of 36 left and 19 games against teams with a sub .500 record.
The Yankees have 17 games left at home out of the 36 left and only 12 against teams with a sub .500 record.
Chicago is currently under .500
Seattle could very well be under .500 when we get to them.
Oh ok…well there’s more to add to the Red Sox list then. Either way, they face a lot more sub .500 and are home a lot more.
But even if we go .500 the rest of the way…we will have 97 or 98 wins…which is pretty much an easy division crown.
…i think we may actually MAKE some of those teams sub .500…
We have the offense to sit Posada for as long as it takes. It may mean that Jeter, Rodriguez, and Damon can’t DH as much, becuase you need Matsui in the line up but I can’t see running the risk of damaging it further by batting or catching considering the lead we have. Let it heal, we’ll still have the lead into September. This team won’t collapse with Jorge out of the line up.
I was tempted to say the same thing, but you know, at this point in the season, I’d rather have him in there, playing.
I want to step on Boston’s neck while the team is hot. Meaning full throttle, pedal to the metal.
Obviously, if he’s really hurt and risks being lost for the year, then ya gotta rest him, but as far as strategic thinking for the season, right now, I’m staying aggressive.
I agree, that you would like to stay aggressive, but their not desperate to win, and you gain on the defensive side of the ball with Molina. It’s a huge drop offensively from Posada to Molina, but a slight up grade defensively. I don’t think the Yankees should be thinking about the playoffs, but having success there means a healthy Posada.
I believe Posada keeps his hand there so he can get the ball out of his glove quicker in case of a snap-throw attempt or someone trying to steal.
Maybe… but he still keeps it there even when no one is on base.
I was a catcher growing up through little league, high school, and played a year in college. Yes, you’re taught growing up to keep your hand either behind your back or behind your leg (I got comfortable with it behind my leg). But when I got to college, I was taught that in situations with runners on base that you should keep your throwing hand behind your glove so that you can transfer quicker to make the throw. Obviously you keep the hand behind the glove for protection, and I was also instructed to keep the fingers loose because if you have your hand clenched in a fist it is more likley that a bone will break if it gets hit. When watching the games, Jorge doesn’t keep his hand up when there is no one on. Molina does the same thing, hand behind the glove with runners on.
Here’s Jorge catching CC when he caught that liner back at him from Nomar in Oakland. Notice Jorge’s hand is behind his leg:
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.....id=6172651
After watching some more highlights it doesn’t look like Molina brings his had up so I might’ve been wrong there, although I remember him doing it. It might depend on who’s on base too.
A lot will be decided between now and 9/13:
The Sox face Danks, Romero and Doc in 3 of their next 4 games before facing TB 6 times in their first 12 September games (4 @ CHI and 2 vs BAL the others).
The Yanks face the White Sox at home for 3, 3 @ Bal, 4 @ Tor, 3 vs Bal and 4 vs TB during that same time.
The Rays next 17 games go 4 @ DET, 3 vs. BOS, 3 vs. DET, 4 @ NYY, 3 @ BOS (ouch)
The Rangers have the easiest upcoming schedule w/ the exception of 3 @ Minn, they got 3 vs. Tor, 3 @ Bal, 3 @ Cle and 3 vs Sea.
The Yanks have a chance to put some distance between themselves and the Wild Card bunch while the Sox and Rays can beat up on each other. Texas has a good chance to keep up and move past Bos with their schedule.
JMHO
let’s go yankees, and rangers! (after today obv)
The Red Sox have been hammering Doc for a while now…and Doc doesn’t really look as sharp as he did earlier in the season. The Rays just banged him around the other day.
I’d love to face the Rangers in the first round of the playoffs. They’re basically a similar style club to ours…but worse on all accounts. They have decent enough pitching to go along with their offense which is 2nd best in the league. We have VERY GOOD pitching to go along with our BEST offense in baseball. And both our pitching and offense is head and shoulders above theirs.
The Red Sox with Beckett and Lester worry me a little bit. As do the Angels. The Angels have literally one starting position player batting under .300 and it’s the catcher…and he’s batting over .290. Their pitching is FAR worse than it used to be…but for whatever reason…we still can’t beat them and Boston ALWAYS does. And if Boston goes to the playoffs…they’ll have another seemingly bye into the 2nd round.
The Tigers are pretty rough with Verlander, etc a bunch of times too…