Jeter still a long way from catching Gehrig
ByThe hardest thing to do in sports, the saying goes, is to hit a pitched baseball. Round ball, cylindrical bat, pitcher with an intent to deceive, all that jazz. Yes, there are tougher things to accomplish in sports, but as far as a fundamental act of a sport, there’s nothing more difficult than to hit a baseball. That’s why we’ve celebrated Derek Jeter. He’s hit so many baseballs that only on other Yankee in history has as many. Since that man no longer plays, Jeter will soon be atop the Yankees hit leader board.
Over the past two decades, we’ve seen focus shift from batting average, hits divided by at bats, to On Base Percentage, times on base divided by plate appearances, and other advanced metrics. That’s because hits are only one part of the game. A big part, no doubt. Hits not only put the batter on base, but can advance runners, possibly more than one base. Even then, all hits are not created equal. A double is worth more than a single, and a homer is the best thing you can do. In other words, there’s more to baseball than just hits.
We do celebrate hits, though, and hold in rarified air those who can accumulate them. There isn’t a single eligible member of the 3,000 hits club who still awaits Hall Of Fame induction (though the first will come and go with Rafael Palmeiro). Hits matter, and if hitting a pitched baseball is the hardest thing to do in sports, they matter a lot. But they’re still not everything. As Tom Tango says:
Please, shove all the hits-only talk out the window. Walks also count. Getting hit by a pitch counts. Hits count. It’s about getting on base. Yes, hits matter. But, getting on base matters more.
Sorry, but we’re not going to shove the hits-only talk out the window. How can you disregard an aspect of the game which is considered harder to do than anything in sports? It doesn’t mean that hits are more important (though you could make the argument). It means that, as I said a paragraph above, there are other aspects to consider.
That’s what we get from Beyond the Boxscore, where one user posted a few all-time on base leader boards. While Jeter still sits with some lofty company on the all-time Yanks list, it doesn’t look like he’ll ever crack the top 10 all time.
My favorite part about this post, which I suggest you read, is that each list gets progressively crazier. First is the all-time Yankees on base leader board. Babe Ruth sits comfortably atop with 4,405 times on base. Lou Gehrig follows with 4,274, and Mickey Mantle sits between Gehrig and Jeter, Mantle with 4,161 and Jeter with 3,736. It will take Jeter at least two more years just to catch Mantle. He has a long way to go in catching Gehrig, and I’m not sure he’ll ever catch Ruth.
The Captain sits even further down the all-time Yankees OBP board. It’s readily available on B-R, but it never ceases to blow my mind that Babe Ruth had a .484 career OBP. Like in the previous list he’s followed by Gehrig, .447, and Mantle, .421. Jeter is in seventh at .387. Maybe he’ll become even more selective as he ages and will push that up over .397, which is where Earle Combs sits at sixth all-time for Yankees. Even that would be a tough accomplishment.
Finally, the all-time leader board for times on base. Babe Ruth, first on the Yankees list, is ninth on this list. First: who else but Pete Rose, who was on base 5,929 times. That’s an unfathomable number. Five thousand, nine hundred and twenty-nine times on base. Of course, that’s partly a testament to his longevity — Rose has also recorded more outs than anyone in MLB history. Not only is he the leader there, but he has 1,192 more outs than the player who recorded the second most outs.
This isn’t at all to take away from Jeter’s accomplishment. We’ll celebrate again once he sits alone atop the Yankees hit list, and we’ll celebrate when he gets that 3,000th hit. Hits matter — a lot, even. But they’re not everything. Even so, Jeter is quite adept at getting on base by any means necessary. He might never crack the all-time list, but then again it’s doubtful any active player will. But let’s not forget this when Jeter passes Mantle for the all-time Yankees on-base list.
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derek jeter’s greatest asset is being Derek Jeter.
Derek Jeter’s greatest asset is Minka Kelly.
Derek Jeter’s greatest ass set is Scarlett Johansson, Jessica Alba and Minka Kelly.
/acting like a typical dude’d (sorry Rebecca)
That is a hell of a set.
I wish I had more hands… so I could give Minka Kelly four thumbs down.
Fair enough. I just couldn’t put Jessica Biel on the list though. Caster Semenya has a more feminine looking face than Biel.
Heh.
http://www.theonion.com/conten.....rticle.jpg (safe)
I agree completely. I was just saying her because she is still with him.
It’s funny, after years of pundits predicting that Jeter was in his decline phase at the bat or on defense, he’s still going strong and is quite possibly better than ever.
He’s damn sure in his decline phase in playing the field, though. Minka Kelly can’t be the best he can do. Our boy is getting old and starting to settle.
I never thought I would ever see him settle down with someone in his Best Buy sized mansion. It is an end of an era.
Damn! I should have went with your fellow Cornhusker, Gabrielle Union. That’s all kinds of pretty.
Cornbread!
http://yazmar.com/wp-content/u.....ion-16.jpg (safe)
… ain’t nothing wrong with that.
Did any ever think that maybe Derek found his love match with Minka Kelly? Sometimes its not just about the poontang in life.
Sometimes its not just about the poontang in life.
BLASPHEMY!!!!
LOL agreed, just saying I can see it both ways (though I’d trade my lifestyle for a harem of supermodels and hot actresses any day of the week!)
oh, come on. She’s adorable. I mean, she may not have the rockin’ booty of some of the ladies whose photos you post (and, may I say, yum w/r/t that) but she’s a cutie and you’re lying if you tell me you’d politely ask her to leave your bedroom.
Besides, maybe she’s super-freaky. Jeter’s probably really jaded in the sack.
That’s the only thing I can think of to potentially justify it.
If Minka Kelly is an absolute nasty skank in the bedroom. That would make up for her utter averageness everywhere else.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pB-4avmAR0 (NSFW, but well worth it)
Dude, that would make her the kind you don’t take home to momma.
And if the rumors I hear are true…
Ok dude, I’ve sat on the sidelines while you’ve gone on your anti-Minka campaign lately, but this is getting a little ridiculous. Look at this girl and tell me she’s not incredibly hot:
http://www.nerve.com/CS/blogs/.....0Kelly.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/200.....-kelly.jpg
http://www.derekhail.com/wp-co.....ipes-1.jpg
She’s clearly just not your cup of tea, but she’s also clearly in the same level of hotness as the other girls Jeter has dated.
me like.
http://api.ning.com/files/Ug0s.....1s/meh.jpg (safe)
What in the hell happened there?
Sorry about that, Matty.
Take two: http://bit.ly/ZLWf2
Look at this girl and tell me she’s not incredibly hot:
(looks)
She’s not incredibly hot.
In agreement with Mondesi. I think Minka is all kinds of hot.
it never ceases to blow my mind that Babe Ruth had a .484 career OBP.
Man, can you imagine if they had put that kinda stat on the scoreboard? The fans would have loved him even more!!!
Sincerely,
Jeff Francouer
His wOBA was .510 for his career. And he was even better than that in the postseason. Mull that over for a while.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RIXDkdYbCA (safe)
combine that with his 94-46 record as a pitcher and his career 122 era+ and 1.159 career WHIP
sweet jesus
I guess he was okay at baseball.
He was clearly an alien. I mean look at him.
Probably the best baseball player of all time, with an argument from Martin Dihigo.
Josh Gibson also says hello.
Yeah, but Josh never pitched. Ruth and Dihigo both did, and very well.
Good point.
I understand that the analysis of Derek Jeter will always result in him looking very mortal compared to guys like Gehrig, Ruth, Mantle and Dimaggio. And statistical analysis is always a great way to view the game.
However, I have noticed a sentiment here (and I love RAB and I acknowledge that they have spent more than enough time appreciating the Capn) and in some of the sabermetric circles that has somewhat of a closeted/veiled disdain for Derek Jeter. Let me say this, he needs and deserves to be in all of these conversations, one because of the position he plays and two because of the era he played in as opposed to these other legends. All of those numbers that were compiled by Ruth and Gehrig were compiled in vastly different time and I would argue that as much as I am beholden to those names, thats all they are-names and memories. They played in a segregated sport that had half the amount of teams (which I understand could actually improve competition) but lets be honest, when you look at the guys who played prior to free agency and especially prior to the PED era, they appeared to be regular guys who were gifted baseball players. The guys we see now are superior athletes who spend the entire year exercising and refining their craft. Jeter played amongst these guys and I have no doubt that perhaps aside from Mantle’s era in the 50′s and 60′s, the sport has completely evolved from what it was. I mean it isn’t that different comparing NFL teams from the early 70′s to what they are now. Not one of those teams would be competitive.
I realize some of that isn’t quantifiable but it is “tangible” and a legitimate argument and Jeter deserves that benefit. I have had the pleasure of watching this guy for the last 14 years. And just like those morons who booed Arod for the last couple of years, I think when we get too attached to the numbers, we are doing a disservice to our own memories and experiences by trying to diminish or limit what Jeter has done while we were actually watching. Sometimes its fun to exaggerate or appreciate what you have actually seen as opposed to what you read about. I think Jeter has to be in the conversation when you consider the whole picture.
Well, the disdain thing is a reaction to the years of Jeter-lionizing that the media has done.
That said, don’t we have era-neutral numbers to allow us to compare? Isn’t that what OPS+ is supposed to be? Neutral park, neutral Era, scaled to 100?
OPS+ is an amazing metric but again it measures a player against his contemporaries which is very informative. I dont know if anyone can ever really quantify whether the 1927 Yankees would be as successful playing against the same competition that Derek Jeter did in 1998. If I had to guess, considering all the factors I mentioned above, they wouldnt be successful at all.
OPS+ is used by a lot of people to compare between eras, but I have problems with that.
The more people who compete or try to compete, the tougher the competition. Batting 0.400 in high school is not that unusual because the competition is not as fierce.
In the modern era you have many many more players fighting for their spot on a MLB team. This is because of economics (even a minimum contract is an amazing salary for a 20-something), the abolishment of segregation, the international recruiting, better health care (far fewer career ending injuries).
All of this leads to it being more difficult to stand out. The standard deviation in OBP and SLG was certainly a lot higher in earlier eras
Looking at the top 10 seasons for every decade since the 1920′s teh average has come down every decade until the 1990′s when something happened…
Top 10 OPS+ seasons of
1920′s was 226
1930′s was 202
1940′s was 201
1950′s was 196
1960′s was 195
1970′s was 184
1980′s was 182
1990′s was 200
2000′s is 220 (but 191 excluding Barry Bonds)
What I think this shows is how since the 1920′s the competitiveness of baseball increased and the difference between the best players and the average player decreased until the steroid era. This also to some extent verifies that not everyone took steroids
I’d love to see a measure of how much a players OBP and SLG deviates from the league average measured in standard deviations. Then comparisons by era would be more plausible.
PS the top 10 seasons in the last 10 years thatI belive could have been clean…
Pujols 2009 199
Thome 2002 197
Pujols 2008 190
Pujols 2003 187
Pujols 2006 178
Mauer 2009 175
Chipper 2008 174
Pujols 2004 172
Carlos Pena 2007 172
Thome 2001 170
I’ve been harsh and excluded the obvious like Sheffield, Manny, Ortiz, Giambi, A-Rod, Luis Gonz, Bonds, Sosa but also Delgado, Hafner, Giles and Derrek Lee…
What this post fails to mention is how many times Jeter didnt get on base because he gave his at bat up to move a runner over…Not sure if anyone else on that list ever did that….
Sarcasm? Is this sarcasm? Please let it be sarcasm…
Derek Jeter, career sacrifice bunts: 77
Babe Ruth, career sacrifice bunts: 113
Lou Gehrig, career sacrifice bunts: 106
Nope.
Your mind is so small, Tommy. What about all the times that Jeter grithletically grounded out to the right side in order to move a guy over from 2nd to third?
Also, shut up about double plays, because those TOTALLY fuck up my narrative.
“grithletically”.
I love it.
It’s rare, but not quite so rare as “athlazily”
I can only assume that only certain guys can be grithletic. Guys like Derek Jeter, Blake Griffin, Hines Ward, and Tiger Woods.
Sincerely,
Gary Sheffield
Tiger Woods is actually one of the few gritmathletes out there.
The fact that Ruth and Gehrig have 229 sac bunts between them is, to borrow your phrase, batshit insane. People must have really loved bunting in that era.
Honus Wagner had 221 career sac bunts.
Jeter the greatest shortstop ever? I think not.
Could you just imagine how much flack Ruth and Gehrig’s managers would have taken for giving them the bunt sign if those knuckleheads on Baseball tonight were broadcasting every night in the 20s and 30s?
This is completely absurd.
Can you imagine what those greats would have done if they actually kept in shape the way these guys do now and had the type of nutrition these guys do? Just Imagine the types of numbers Ruth alone would have put up. btw, they pitchers also pitched from a higher mound didn’t they?
I kind of like a lot of Steve’s points. I hate comparing differing eras, regardless of OPS and such.
Pitching was different in the 20′s and 30′s, can that be exactly accounted for? Making a pitcher go beyond his best stuff in the game, instead of replacing him with a specialized inning man for example? To me, just too many things to consider.
How important are counting stats for a shortstop, especially when compared to a RF or 1B?
I don’t get why counting stats would matter more for a guy at one position or another.
Counting stats really aren’t that interesting to me…I’m more interested in looking at rate stats per season, and then rate stats over the duration of a guy’s career.
a couple of awesome peak seasons + a couple more excellent ones + sustained very goodness = great player.
Why are counting stats overrated? See: Biggio, Craig.
What about him? That he hung on just long enough to achieve a milestone? All that really shows is that he and some other people thought that was important, it doesn’t tell us much about him as a player. In isolation, all counting stats tell me is that a guy was good enough and healthy enough to rack up a zillion plate appearances.
it’s just such a small part of the story of the overall player. There is other data that explains much better that Craig Biggio was really good at baseball.
it’s just such a small part of the story of the overall player. There is other data that explains much better that Craig Biggio was really good at baseball.
+1
Biggio’s a great player.
Yup. And it’s funny to me that, somehow, his generally mediocre age 40 and 41 seasons somehow put him over the top as a HOFer because those 260 hits or whatever put him over the 3000 hit milestone. I just don’t understand that logic.
Because the rest of his career was underrated, to the point where he had to achieve those milestones for him to appear a worthy member of the Hall in the eyes of the BBWAA. Which is crap, but so it goes.
and watch as Mussina, who is in exactly the same boat but chose to walk away before getting to the milestone number, gets closed out of the Hall
The same shit goes for Blyleven. He has all the right numbers except the goddamn wins, because of shitty, shitty run support.
It would be a travesty if Moose does not get the call for the hall… He could have had those 300 wins if he wanted to hang in for 2-3 seasons and heck he might not have even embarassed himself doing it like some other ageing ballplayers who hang on to reach their HOF milestones (didn’t a spent Early Winn need something like 8-9 starts to win 300?).
But Moose realized that he had nothing left to prove to himself by hanging on and wanted to spend more time with the family and coaching little league. Good for him for realize what is more important in his life and I hope the voters overlook the lack of a mediocre 2-3 seasons that are not tacked onto the end of his career and look at his whole track record.
I’m just very anti-Biggio to the Hall. He had a really small stretch of greatness surrounded by a bunch of years of above average-ness. But, the fact that he’s 74th on the CHONE WAR top 500 list is hard to argue, though that could be a byproduct of just playing for a long time and amassing more PAs than all the guys around him (by a lot).
biggio was a silver slugger and an allstar catcher, then a 4 time gold glover as a 2b also getting the silver slugger 3 of those 4 seasons and then played outfield for a couple of years and finished back at 2b. a career ops+ of 111 for a catcher/2b/cf is pretty good.
Biggio excelled offensively for the bulk of his career at positions where offense is a premium (c, 2b). Sure his numbers would not rate at the corners, but you have to account for his place on the field and compared to the HOFers who played his position(s).
I’m going to disagree with the original point made in Joe’s post — Jeter has a very good chance of retiring as the Yankees’ all-time leader in times on base. Even in his subpar (for him) 2008, he was still on base 240 times. Unless he experiences a sharp decline or suddenly becomes injury prone, he should pass Ruth at the end of 2011 or mid-2012.
yeah i was re-doing my math to see if i did something wrong because the post made it sound impossible. hes about 670 away from Ruth, like you said his bad year he got on 240x, even if you want to bring that down to 200 a year to make up for the decline then he’ll pass him in 3-4 years.
Don’t discount Jeter’s work ethic either… He’s not going to resign himself to an career ending in mediocrity. The only thing I could see keeping him for rising higher on the all time lists is a classy Jeter retiring at the point he feels like he can no longer play the game like Derek Jeter.
Me personally, I think the hardest single thing to do in sports is hit a stationary golf ball. Not saying hitting a baseball is easy, but damn golf is hard.
do you mean hitting a golf ball straight?
Hitting one period is hard enough, but yes. Hitting it straight is what I meant.
i think pole vaulting would be the hardest thing to do in sports. 20 foot pole, full speed, tiny hole, mental image of impalement, etc, etc.
Hitting a baseball thrown by an MLB caliber pitcher trying to get you to miss would be insanely hard, but so would be trying to defend against an NFL-caliber receiver or LB. Even on a 2007 Joba slider dropping down and in on a lefty, there’s the slight chance that you make contact by accident. you won’t get so lucky in the NFL
I think that following a team whose management is constantly penny-pinching and trading away their best players to contenders for little return is the hardest thing to do in sports.
Wait a minute… this isn’t the Pirates message board?!?!
Jeter is a great player but he is not in the same league as legends like Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mantle and I’m sure a few others. One thing to think about is that if Gehrig hadn’t gotten sick Jeter would probably be still chasing him to 3000 hits and beyond. I love Jeter and realize he’s a Yankees legend in his own right but he doesn’t come close to those four I mentioned and I’m sure there are a few others.
Agreed.
Were people here really arguing that Jeter was better than Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, or Mantle? I don’t see many arguments of that sort.
No but I think a few Yankee fans might be thinking that he is because I’ve heard it.
Is Jeter a better player than Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio or Mantle. That is a no brainer – OF COURSE HE IS
It’s like asking if Tyson Gay is a better 100m runner than Jesse Owens was.
If the current Derek Jeter played in the 1920′s (which he wouldn’t have been allowed to) he’d have been a homerun king every single year because the pitchers he would have faced would have been so poor compared to what he is facing today.
If Babe Ruth played today he’d be picked apart by scouts, video tapes and modern pitching. He might adopt but it would take years of exercise and training to get him even close to get the starting job for the Yankees in the outfield.
However Tyson Gay is a nobody in the history of 100m running – Jesse Owens is a legend. As it should be.
Babe Ruth changed how the game was played, he was much better than all his competitors until Gehrig came along – he’s a legend.
The question is not if Derek Jeter is a better player but rather if he is a greater player or even better a greater legend and then the answer is simple
PS as goes for the others – Jeter is a better player than Mantle, Gehrig, Ruth,Berra, DiMaggio but behnind them all on my list of the greatest Yankees
So Jeter wouldn’t have faced the same soft baseball or played in the same huge ballparks or any of that? Interesting.
I’m with Tango here. ToB >>> Hits and if it takes a little overcompenstaion to make his point so be it.
(Its also the best argument for Tim Raines in the HoF. Compare him to Tony Gwynn with the focus on getting on base rather than the means of doing so.)
Tim Raines not in the Hall is the biggest travesty going at the moment.
Bigger than Blyleven not being in, bigger than Rice being in.
Tim Raines. Hall of Famer. Make it happen, you BBWAA numbnuts.
And compare them today, where you could clock Tony Gwynn’s speed to first base with a sundial now that he’s a professional eater.
http://slanchreport.files.word.....tgwynn.jpg
It would only take around 3 normal seasons for Jeter to break this record. Correct me if I am wrong. I get that he is 670 times on base from breaking the record. Or 223+ per year for 3 years. His career low in times on base is 212 ( I added hits, BBs, and HBP, hope I got it)or around there. He missed over 40 games that year. He has been on base 250 times this year, with many games left. He had 240 in the season with his LOWEST OPS. I think his best was 322. Can’t expect the best, but he was up around 280-300 a lot. His average season is around 267.
So is it a stretch to say Jeter might play the equivalent of 3 more complete seasons with the Yankees and perform at least as well as his worst OPS?