Comments on: Jeter vs. DiMaggio

By: toad

toad — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 14:45:25 +0000

Her’s where I’m puzzled by the argument. On the one hand you are citing his batting statistics for the claim that he is one of the two or three best SS ever. Nothing about defense. OK.

But then when you (or others maybe) compare him to players at other positions the defensive importance of SS suddenly becomes a huge factor. Lombardi argues, as I said above, that it might balance out both the large difference in hitting between Jeter and DiMaggio and the fact that Joe D. was a great defensive CF, while Jeter is only an adequate, maybe below average, defensive SS.

When I pointed out the other day that Mattingly’s numbers were comparable to Jeter’s, and he was an outstanding 1B, I was shouted down with cries of, “But Jeter’s a SS.” So which is it? Is the defensive aspect of the position crucially important, in which case we need to take that into account in comparing him to other SS, or is it largely secondary, in which case we base our comparisons primarily on offensive output?

By: monkeypants

monkeypants — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 03:42:38 +0000

Tough call. Mays (156 OPS+, .954 OPS) v. DiMaggio (155 OPS+, .977 OPS). Mays lost nearly two early years (age 21-22) to military service. DiMaggio lost three prime years (age 28-30). Mays hung on a little too long, but has better counting stats. DiMaggio’s career was cut short by injuries and his counting stats suffered in addition from his home stadium. Both were reputedly excellent defenders.

I’m a huge Yankee and DiMaggio fan, so I lean toward Joltin’Joe, but I can see it the other way.

And I think that Mantle was better than both of them, especially if you look at his peak seasons.

By: monkeypants

monkeypants — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 03:34:05 +0000

Suppose he’d stayed at SS, as well he might have under other circumstances. Wouldn’t he clearly outrank Jeter?

Yes, he would have…and he would have been challenging Honus for the greatest SS of all time. But he didn’t so he isn’t, at least if we are talking about “greatest SS.”

In terms of greatest players overall in the history of the game, I think A-Rod certainly outranks Jeter.

By: sabes

sabes — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 03:27:45 +0000

You can’t rank a player by what-might-have-been’s. The fact is, he won’t have a full career at SS like Jeter will probably have.

By: sabes

sabes — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 03:26:44 +0000

I don’t know. DiMaggio over Mays? It’s close…

By: chriskeo

chriskeo — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 02:19:41 +0000

We can say this now 5 years after he offered to switch positions for the yankees (its fresh in our head) but years down the line he will be remembered as a great hitter and good defense (in his prime) the position of SS vs. 3B wont be a huge issue, but it will be noted how successful he was after the switch.

By: toad

toad — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 02:04:05 +0000

Mays is in the running.

Yeah. In the running. Right.

I think the A-Rod comparison is a little suspect. Suppose he’d stayed at SS, as well he might have under other circumstances. Wouldn’t he clearly outrank Jeter? After all, the essential argument of the Jeter fans is that he is a good hitter playing an important defensive position, albeit not brilliantly. Wouldn’t A-Rod at SS make mincemeat of that?

In short, I hear a lot of, “but Jeter’s a shortstop.” OK, but just an adequate one defensively, so his value lies in his hitting, and there he doesn’t come close to the CF’s (including Duke Snider).

By: monkeypants

monkeypants — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 01:19:59 +0000

Check out Neyer’s recent evaluation. Jeter has a higher career OBP, SLG and OPS+ than Ripken, who also played 3B for 675 games. Jeter is better than Ripken (though Ripken had three super seasons to Jeter’s one). Banks stopped playing SS at age 29. Jeter has them both beat as career SSs. A-Rod will play more games as a 3B than SS. Depending on how you evaluate his career (SS or 3B), Jeter would rank 2nd or 3rd behind Wagner.

Mantle (177 OPS+, career .977 OPS) is almost certainly the greater CF than DiMaggio (155 OPS+, .977 OPS). Mays is in the running.

In the end, you have Jeter as (probably) the second best career SS, and DiMaggio as (probably) the second best career CF.

By: David

David — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 01:00:56 +0000

I don’t think it’s close. DiMaggio has a claim to being the greatest center fielder of all time. Jeter has no comparable claim. He lags far behind Honus Wagner, ARod, Ernie Banks, and Cal Ripken, Jr.

By: monkeypants

monkeypants — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 23:53:05 +0000

Maybe the “deification of Jeter has gone too far. Then again, when all is said and done, Jeter will rank as one of the top few SS of all time (even Neyer now argues this), just as DiMaggio was one of the top few CF of all time. That Jeter is even in the discussion–even on the losing end (DiMaggio was much better, especially looking at his peak)–is impressive enough.

We have been thoroughly spoiled by having #2 at SS for the past decade and a half. When that production has to be replaced in a year or three or four, we may come to realize just how great Jeter has been.