The desire, but not the flexibility, to demote Joba

Assessing Brackman's Season, Part III
Jorge faces three game suspension

As the Yankees head into the playoffs, the team’s pitching will move to the forefront of the discussion. The Yanks’ offense is far and away the best in the game, but how the pitching holds up will determine how deep they go into October. We know about Andy Pettitte‘s shoulder and A.J. Burnett‘s inconsistency, but Joba Chamberlain lurks as well.

To that end, the last two days have given us two discussion-worthy items about Joba Chamberlain. We start with Joel Sherman’s 3 Up post. In it, Sherman notes that the Yankees, had they other options, would have considered sending Joba to the minors when he struggled in August and early September. With Chien-Ming Wang, Ian Kennedy, Al Aceves and Phil Hughes in other roles, though, the team had no choice. Writes Sherman:

Yankee officials tell me there was really no option but to have Joba continue to do his work in the majors because the club already was dealing with a fifth starter spot combo of Sergio Mitre and Chad Gaudin.

But it is worthwhile to remember heading into next year that Chamberlain does not have the divine right to a major league job. The Marlins sent down Ricky Nolasco this year and the Brewers sent down Manny Parra. Chamberlain still has options, which means he is going to get the first opportunity to start and some rope to keep a job. And it is important to remember that the Yanks believe Chamberlain is on the way to the top of a rotation. However, he will not have endless rope in 2010 when theoretically both Hughes and Kennedy will both be rotation options again.

Sherman’s take today juxtaposes nicely with his musings on the Joba Rules The Post published yesterday. Sherman talks about how Joba is young, still learning and facing an innings limit. While many fans and commentators refuse to recognize this reality, Sherman ends with a zinger: “This” — meaning the Spring Training-like build-up in September — “is all part of the continuing education of a young starter. But education, like facts, get in the way of you yelling about Chamberlain not throwing 120 pitches last night.

Not everyone appreciated Sherman’s musings. Mike Silva at NYBD voiced his belief that “Joba’s development should not take precedence over the Yankees season.” Silva understands the need for an innings limit but feels the execution is wrong. He wants Joba on the mound throwing full games to gear up for the post-season and would have limited Joba’s innings by keeping him off the mound earlier in the year. As a comparable pitcher, he cites the Braves’ Tommy Hanson.

Hanson, though, isn’t a valid comp. He’s thrown 167 innings this year so far after tossing back-to-back seasons of 133 innings. The Braves, meanwhile, are preparing to shut him down once they are out of the playoffs. They also avoided summoning Hanson to the Majors until June because they didn’t want his arbitration clock to tick. For Atlanta, it is about the money.

For the Yankees, this has been a year of Joba, and it isn’t over yet. The youngster showed signs of emerging from his funk on Monday, and he’ll look to build on that over the weekend in Seattle. The Yanks may need Joba to start in the ALDS, and they will definitely hand him the ball in the ALCS. This ride is far from over, and Joba will throw more innings with or without the rules.

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Assessing Brackman's Season, Part III
Jorge faces three game suspension
  • Free Mike Vick

    the yankees obviously screwed Joba this year…and last year to a degree…

    hopefully next year we won’t have to worry about any of this garbage and Joba can just go out and pitch!

    • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

      the yankees obviously screwed Joba this year…and last year to a degree…

      I just don’t see how people can keep claiming this without backing it up. Except for one stretch in August, Joba has gotten the ball every five days. Sure, he’s throwing shorter starts right now, but there’s a reason for it. Joba knows this; the Yankees know this.

      Just because he hasn’t been as lights out as we hoped doesn’t mean they “obviously screwed” him.

      • A.D.

        Agreed, I don’t really see how he was “screwed”.

        If anything they’re trying not to screw him.

        • Tom Zig

          The only thing I can think of that was screwy was putting him in the bullpen.

          • Rich James

            they should have basically shut him down at the beginning of the season until they felt comfortable with him being able to go out every 5 days and pitch without hitting his innings limit.

            it was obvious in my view that Joba was fustrated with his innings limit and and effected the way he pitched…he was trying to save an inning here,save some pitches there, trying to be too fine with pitches,nibbling.

            • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

              That’s backwards logic. Do Yankee fans really think like this?

              You’re saying that Joba used up too many pitches because he was trying to keep his innings under control? That he was frustrated with an innings limit? Are you his shrink? His dad? That’s baseless and illogical speculation.

      • Free Mike Vick

        You really don’t think they messed up with Joba this year??

        i mean really…there were points this season when Joba didn’t know when the hell he was going to pitch. It might be 5 days…it might be 8 days…it might be 10 days.

        Once Joba said, “this ain’t working”….they put him in a spot where it was lose/lose. Pitching 3 innings…if he pitched good…so what it was for 30 pitches…if he pitched bad…he had nothing to build on.

        IMO…they really mishandled Joba this season.

        • Chris

          There was one start where he didn’t know exactly what his plan for when his next start was. At the time of that start he had already had a string of a few bad starts. So you’re arguing that he knew ahead of time that he wouldn’t know ahead or time what his starting routine would be and that messed him up for a few weeks?

          • Free Mike Vick

            It obviously messed him up enough for him to go tell Girardi that he didn’t want to do it!

            • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

              And you know that’s what happened how? The Yanks never said they adjusted the plans because that’s what Joba wanted. Developing young pitchers doesn’t work like that. Otherwise, they’d all want to throw 200 innings far too early in their careers.

              • Free Mike Vick

                I don’t feel like arguing about this anymore…if you think the yankees have handled Joba the right way this year…thats your opinion. but i strongly disgree with it!

                send him to AAA to start the season..and to these 3 inning outs there…not at the major league level in the middle of September, is my feeling.

                • mvg

                  you reach a point in a pitcher’s development where they can obviously get major league hitters out, but have not yet reached their potential. Joba and Hughes both seem to be at that level.

                  It’s like sending a HS Varsity pitcher against the freshman squad. What is he really getting out of those innings? Building up arm strength, sure, but he can do that in the majors.

                  And really, what has that cost the team? Nada, zip, and zero. They still have the best record in all of baseball. By like 5 games. Best record in the AL by 6. I’m fine with that.

                • Free Mike Vick

                  bsically we are at a different chapter of the same book

                  So what you are saying is to do the same thing with Hughes next year…as they did to Joba this year? Get to August…skip some starts, 9 days rest etc etc…3 inning outings..etc etc

                  instead of having Hughes fully built up for a May-October run?…but sending him to AAA for a month or so to start the season

        • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

          Again, I repeat: They screwed with his days off exactly once. When it was clear that wasn’t going to work, they altered their plans.

          If anything, they “messed up” in 2007 by deflating his innings limit and messed up last year by not starting him out in the rotation. This year, he pitches every five days, makes 30 starts, and is ready for the playoffs.

          • Free Mike Vick

            Joba hasn’t pitched into the 6th inning of a game since August 11th….the last time he saw the 7th inning was in July!

            He hasn’t thrown 90 pitches in a game since August the 25th and that was in 4 innings of work….so i would doubt he’ll get up to 90 his next time out…so now we are looking at 2 starts for him to pitch like normal…and you are confident that will have him ready for the playoffs?

            not to mention the yankees probably won’t even use him as a starter in the 1st round!

        • Ed

          i mean really…there were points this season when Joba didn’t know when the hell he was going to pitch. It might be 5 days…it might be 8 days…it might be 10 days.

          You’re talking about what, a 2-3 week span? And during that time period he’d make a start then get told after the game when his next one would be. It’s not that different than it normally is for pitchers. You can’t plan too far ahead, things are always changing.

          Once Joba said, “this ain’t working”….they put him in a spot where it was lose/lose. Pitching 3 innings…if he pitched good…so what it was for 30 pitches…if he pitched bad…he had nothing to build on.

          The entire purpose of these starts is to keep Joba in game shape while giving him a rest. These starts really aren’t about developing him.

          You’re reading far more into things than there is. This season was about working Joba hard up to about 130 IP, then working him easy to around 160 IP while making sure he’s ready for the postseason.

          • Free Mike Vick

            like i said above.

            The Yankees should have sent his a$$ to AAA to start the season…and if you want to have him go 3 innings for 3 or 4 starts…or have him be skipped for 9 days. FINE! Do it where there is nothing riding on it.

            But to have this stuff going on in August and September at the major league level is the wrong way of handling it.

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              The Yankees should have sent his a$$ to AAA to start the season…and if you want to have him go 3 innings for 3 or 4 starts…or have him be skipped for 9 days. FINE!

              Now, if you wanna CROWN HIS ASS, THEN CROWN HIS ASS! BUT HE WAS WHO WE THOUGHT HE WAS!!!

              • Free Mike Vick

                i’ll tip my hat…

                /dennis green’d

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph Pawlikowski

              I think Moshe (and others) pointed this out, but if you start him late, and he gets injured, the plan is decimated.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                If he gets injured, the plan is decimated regardless.

                Is it decimated slightly more in this case? Perhaps. That’s still not reason enough to not do it.

              • Free Mike Vick

                thats not fair to play that game though…because you can spin it the other way aswell.

                Hughes is a starting pitcher…so like a said above. Do the opposite you did with Joba..Let hughes start next year at AAA..3 inning outings..skip starts…9 days rest etc etc…and then call him up when you are confident he can make every start from the call up to the end of October without reaching his innings limit.

            • Ed

              Do it where there is nothing riding on it.

              Are you following a different team than I am?

              The Yankees I’m following are in first with a very comfortable lead and are winning roughly 7 out of every 10 games, despite the fact that they’re regularly resting their All Stars and letting crappy pitchers start.

              At this point it would take a major catastrophe or the team actively trying to lose for them to not win the division.

              • Free Mike Vick

                would you rather a or b?

                a) Have Hughes (too late for joba) start next season at AAA…have him build up…skip him…9 days rest…3 inning outings..and Have him for the entire stretch run from early to mid may thru the end of the season.

                or

                b) have Hughes start next year in the Majors…and then come August/september start skipping him starts…9 days rest..3 inning outings.

                • Ed

                  I’d pick B every time. A is just a variant of the 2008 Joba plan, which falls apart if anything at all goes wrong. B is much better risk management.

                • Free Mike Vick

                  You can not be serious….

                  so you would rather Hughes throw 3 innings on september the 16th then 7 innings?

                  come on now.

                • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph Pawlikowski

                  Yes, he can be serious. You simplify the issue too much. There are many other concerns, foremost of which is injury. If you start a guy in mid-May and he misses a month of the season, he’s essentially missed two and a half months, almost half the season.

                • Free Mike Vick

                  i’m sorry but your injury conern doesn’t hold water…a player can get injuried at any time. a player can get injuried in August just like in May.

                  You can spin injury concern any way you want…i mean if we follow your plan…and he gets injuried in September…he ain’t coming back at all!

                • Ed

                  The reasons you’re pointing out are exactly why the injury concerns make sense.

                  If injuries are randomly distributed, starting the season in April and limiting work later makes more sense, as the odds of being able to makeup the lost time are greater. Not perfect, but greater.

                  However, the theory on innings limits is that as a pitcher gets further past his previous high innings count, the greater the risk of injury. Which means he’s more likely to have an injury as he approaches his innings limit than he is early in the season. Which means that if you start his season late, he’s more likely to get injured in August/September than in May.

                • Free Mike Vick

                  I’m sorry but i do not agree AT ALL with what you said.

                  If a player gets hurt…he gets hurt. Thats the bottomline. I would NEVER say a player is more likely to get hurt at a certain point then another…because i don’t know what a player’s body will react to etc etc..and injury could be a freak thing etc etc. a player could never get hurt at all.

                  my plan has Hughes starting every 5 days down the stretch of the season when a team needs him most….your plan..well…i don’t even know..are you going to skip starts? are you going to give him 9 days rest like joba did? 2-3 inning starts in the middle of september?

                • Free Mike Vick

                  every 5 days with no gimmicks

                  throw as long as you can be effective..

                • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph Pawlikowski

                  “If a player gets hurt…he gets hurt. Thats the bottomline. I would NEVER say a player is more likely to get hurt at a certain point then another”

                  That’s the point. If he gets hurt and starts the season late, that’s even MORE time that he’s out. If he starts the season on time and gets hurt, there’s still a chance he can salvage the season.

                • Free Mike Vick

                  Fine if you don’t want him to start the year at AAA…

                  How bout you just shut him down when he reaches his innings limit. Plain and simple. Just shut his a$$ down.

                  don’t even let him see September…because this skipping him 9 days…then back to 5…tthen 3 inning starts is just a waste of time. imo…you might aswell not even have him pitch if thats how you are going to use him down the stretch

                • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

                  because this skipping him 9 days…then back to 5…tthen 3 inning starts is just a waste of time. imo

                  I don’t understand why this is so hard for you to grasp. Here. I’ll bold it for you: The Yankees did that one time. Once. That’s it.

                  You make it sound as though they spent the summer doing that when, in fact, they did not. Get over it.

                • Free Mike Vick

                  they skipped him for 9 days(once.)

                  there you happy?

                  now…they went back to pitching every 5 days…and starting 3 FREAKING INNINGS PER OUTING IN SEPTEMBER!!!111!!1!

                • Ed

                  How bout you just shut him down when he reaches his innings limit. Plain and simple. Just shut his a$$ down.

                  If the team wasn’t using the 9th or so option for starters in the rotation right now, they’d probably be considering that.

        • King of Fruitless Hypotheticals

          YOU didnt know when he was going to pitch…we have no idea what he knew. every pitcher thinks they’re going to get it in 4 days, and maybe they do, maybe they dont.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            every pitcher thinks they’re going to get it in 4 days, and maybe they do, maybe they dont

            That sounds like a pretty damn fruitless hypothetical.

      • NYYank55

        How can anyone say that the Yankees AREN”T screwing with Joba?
        It’s no secret that the only way to build arm strength is by pitching. Limiting his innings to protect his arm should have been done at the beginning of the season not now. Just when it looked like he was finally getting his velocity up to 94-96 mph, they decided to reduce his innings. Now they have to build him back up again to go 100 pitches before the playoffs begin. I not a pitching coach, but to me this will cause more strain on a young arm than just letting him go. Also what incentive can any one have knowing that when they go out to the mound to start a game they can only get a no decision or a loss? How does that boost your confidence? That is what the Yankees are doing to Joba right know.

    • Mikey K-9

      Joba !!

  • jsbrendog

    part of me just wants it to end. its kind of like the santana thing. I really want joba to be a great frontline starter for years to come but I am so effing tired of all the media attention and such that i’m starting to become indifferent as to whether he is great, average, or turrible.

    i’m trying to resist

    • Mattingly’s Love Child

      I’m with you man. I’m so sick of the whole storyline with Joba. All of the media hype is crushing my excitement for what could be the start of a great career.

  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

    Silva understands the need for an innings limit but feels the execution is wrong. He wants Joba on the mound throwing full games to gear up for the post-season and would have limited Joba’s innings by keeping him off the mound earlier in the year.

    Agreed. But, http://alteredobsession.files......sailed.jpg

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      In a related story, I disagree with the government’s decision to bail out AIG, Bank of America, and Citigroup.

      What we should have done was build a time machine to go back and stop the financial meltdown in the first place. That is a much better solution, and I’m a genius for suggesting it.

      • A.D.

        Damn, if only I had thought of it.

        • JohnnyC

          But you did. I went back in time to undo your solution. Ha!

    • Chris

      I disagree about keeping him off the mound earlier in the season. They tried that last season and it didn’t work out so well. Any little injury or interruption and he misses a few starts so he doesn’t reach his innings limit (again) and we’re in the same boat next year.

      • Moshe Mandel

        Exactly. You cannot plan like that. You need to get him close to his innings limit and then start shortening outings or shut him down. Doing it the other way is a bad idea.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        I disagree about keeping him off the mound earlier in the season. They tried that last season and it didn’t work out so well.

        But again, they didn’t try that.

        They didn’t keep him off the mound earlier in the year, they kept him in the bullpen and then transitioned him into the rotation. That’s not the same thing as just delaying the start of his season.

        Any little injury or interruption and he misses a few starts so he doesn’t reach his innings limit (again) and we’re in the same boat next year.

        And yet, the alternative (not delaying his season and just starting him in the rotation in April) necessitates either shutting him down, skipping his turns, pulling him early, or sending him to the pen.

        Not delaying the start of his season has an upside that still requires a downside. Delaying the start of his season has an upside with no downside.

        Both plans have risk, but at least one plan has a real reward with no internal negative.

        • Moshe Mandel

          I disagree. Injuries to pitchers have becomes so common that you cannot really consider them external to the plan. A prudent team tries to build a plan that accounts for all relevant factors, with injuries being one of them. I actually think that the Yankees have done as solid a job a team in a pennant race could have done with Joba.

        • Ed

          Your plan requires starting the season with a disposable fill-in in the rotation.

          Starting him in the rotation and removing him later allows for promoting a prospect mid-season to fill the rotation gap, with a disposable fill-in as the fall back.

          Yes, in your plan you could start the season with a prospect. If you’re talking about using say Hughes at the start, he gets the shaft when Joba comes in, making the exercise kinda pointless. If you’re using a Nova type guy, I would think the midseason promotion approach would make more sense than a midseason demotion.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Your plan requires starting the season with a disposable fill-in in the rotation.

            Well, had we used this strategy this year, that would have been Phil Hughes. He would have spent April in the Bronx and May in Scranton instead of vice versa, and when Wang went down it would have been Kennedy.

            This coming year, if we use my strategy for Phil Hughes, the opening day 5 would be CC, AJ, Joba, Andy, and probably Chad Gaudin or Ian Kennedy, and then Phil comes up in May. And we can always do the normal cannon fodder options of, oh, say, a Brett Tomko on an NRI (who, incidentally, would have been in the above April ’09 mix).

            It’s not as crazy as you’re making it out to be.

            • Moshe Mandel

              It isn’t crazy. It is just poor risk management in my opinion.

            • Tom Zig

              This coming year, if we use my strategy for Phil Hughes, the opening day 5 would be CC, AJ, Joba, Andy, and probably Chad Gaudin or Ian Kennedy Ben Sheets or Brandon Webb.

              Fixed that for you.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Let’s not go crazy, now.

                (Although, I am a little glad to hear that the Rangers are going through a financial rough patch and Tom Hicks is putting the club on the market. Nolan Ryan is Cashman’s biggest competitor for Sheets’s services, this could tilt the scales back in our favor.

                CC-AJ-Joba-Hughes-Sheets? Great googily moogily.)

                • Tom Zig

                  If I am Sheets I want no part of Nolan Ryan’s School of Pitching.

                • Mattingly’s Love Child

                  Greedy SOBs.

                  Sign me up!

                • Tom Zig

                  Signing Sheets or Webb is like Boston’s 2009 plan for historic pitching depth…only with pitchers still capable of pitching.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  You know the holocaust? Picture the exact opposite of that.

                • Dax J.

                  +1

            • Ed

              Well, had we used this strategy this year, that would have been Phil Hughes. He would have spent April in the Bronx and May in Scranton instead of vice versa, and when Wang went down it would have been Kennedy.

              But then what do you do when Hughes hits his innings limits? We just avoided that issue this year by throwing him in the bullpen, making sure he doesn’t come anywhere near his previous high.

              I think your strategy works better for next year with a fringe guy like Gaudin in the mix. He’s a guy you like having around but don’t mind messing with role.

              This year I just don’t think it would’ve worked. Hughes and Kennedy were really the only other rotation options. I think Kennedy was only going to make the opening day roster if there were a series of injuries, and Hughes didn’t really make sense with the innings issues. I don’t think the team wanted to have to count on the cannon fodder guys like Tomko for anything more than long relief. And obviously Mitre was unavailable.

              It’s not as crazy as you’re making it out to be.

              Nah, I don’t think it’s crazy. It’s a reasonable approach, I just think there’s more downside to it than you do.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                But then what do you do when Hughes hits his innings limits? We just avoided that issue this year by throwing him in the bullpen, making sure he doesn’t come anywhere near his previous high.

                Hughes’s innings goal this year was 180. He would have been fine starting all year. The issue with Hughes in 2009 was never “Will he pitch too many innings?” It was “Will he pitch enough?”

                Nah, I don’t think it’s crazy. It’s a reasonable approach, I just think there’s more downside to it than you do.

                I never said there was no downside. I just said, when you weigh it against the other possible approaches, it represents the smallest downside.

                It’s the lesser of multiple evils.

                • Ed

                  Hughes’s innings goal this year was 180. He would have been fine starting all year. The issue with Hughes in 2009 was never “Will he pitch too many innings?” It was “Will he pitch enough?”

                  If that’s the real goal, I’ll agree with you. I would’ve expected lower considering his workload the past two years. I certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable with that load next year considering he’s now had 3 straight seasons of not coming anywhere near that total.

                  I never said there was no downside. I just said, when you weigh it against the other possible approaches, it represents the smallest downside.

                  Actually, you did say there was no downside. That’s why I replied. You originally said:

                  Not delaying the start of his season has an upside that still requires a downside. Delaying the start of his season has an upside with no downside.

                  Both plans have risk, but at least one plan has a real reward with no internal negative.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  Actually, you did say there was no downside. That’s why I replied. You originally said:

                  “Not delaying the start of his season has an upside that still requires a downside. Delaying the start of his season has an upside with no downside.”

                  So, again, I didn’t say there was no downside to my plan. I said my plan had an upside that did not have a downside. That’s an important semantic distinction.

                  I’m not saying my plan is perfect. I’m saying, if my plan goes smoothly (i.e. injury free), the results are optimal. If the alternative plan (just start 2010 Hughes in the rotation just like Joba 2009) goes smoothly (i.e. injury free), the results are still suboptimal because innings caps rejiggering will still have to happen in August and September.

  • A.D.

    IPK throws amazing tonight, called up, makes a couple starts, BAM 4th starter in the playoffs.

    But agreed, the Yankees destroying their starter depth to secure the pen has led to this awkwardness to end the season, when instead they could have spot started for Joba more during the year.

    • http://tomorrowsnewsyesterday.wordpress.com/ JMK

      Sounds really unlikely. Also, I’m not sure I’d want him over Joba. Maybe my sarcasm meter is broken.

      • A.D.

        Yeah, it was a joke.

        • http://tomorrowsnewsyesterday.wordpress.com/ JMK

          It’s getting harder to understand the comments on RAB with all the idiots running about. I’m losing it.

          • Tom Zig

            It would be boring without any strife.

  • Andy In Sunny Daytona

    Damn rich punks, with their rock-n-roll music. Take him down a notch.

  • Tom Zig

    We don’t have any Dayton Moores or Drayton McLanes in our organization (except maybe Hank)…

    Therefore

    I trust Cashman, Nardi, and whoever else is a member of the Joba Rules Council knows what they are doing and will make decisions that are both for the good of the organization and for the good of The Joba.

  • Ed

    This is really in response to the Mike Silva piece. Posted it there first.

    I think that a large part of Joba’s late season ineffectiveness is due to him being stretched past his past limits. His really bad stretch started the start after he hit the 110 innings mark on the season, which matched his total from 2007 and was higher than his 2008 total. It’s been several years since he’s been asked to pitch this much, so he’s having trouble.

    It’s a necessary hurdle to pass, but no matter how you managed his innings this year, I think he’d still be hitting a wall around this point. Maybe this approach will work out better, as he’s had several weeks of light work to rest and is getting worked back into shape. Resting him earlier might’ve resulted in him slowing down now, with little time to try to correct it.

  • Chris

    For all of the complaints about Joba’s performance this year, I’d like to throw out the Yankees record in games started by out primary starters this year:

    Andy: 20-9 (.690)
    Joba: 19-9 (.679)
    CC: 20-11 (.645)
    AJ: 18-11 (.621)
    Hughes: 4-3 (.571)
    Sergio: 5-4 (.556)
    Wang: 3-6 (.333)

    • pete

      all this says is the yankees are good, and joba has been anywhere from mediocre to great overall.

  • A.D.

    Couldn’t they have eased him into the season? Perhaps start him at Scranton or, if weather was a concern, send him to extended spring or Tampa. Have him throw these 3 inning stints the first month of the year and get him started May 1st. We all know he can get minor league hitters out, but this is about improving the process, not the result.

    Why this certainly could have worked, you want to throw innings when you can, you never know when something random can shut a pitcher down. Additionally they thought they’d have SP depth throughout the season.

    Atlanta didn’t bring up Hanson till June 7th and they had a greater need for pitching than the Yankees.

    Eh, not really, they had 5 starters coming out of spring training, now Jo-Jo Reyes hasn’t been very good this season, but he was still a ton better than Wang, and they had other guys they could start if needed.

    I also don’t understand why, if you are so concerned about his development, you didn’t bring in one adequate backup behind him. Losing Chien Ming Wang was a bad break, but is Josh Towers, Chad Gaudin, and Sergio Mitre acceptable? With the financial clout of the Yankees couldn’t they acquire one decent starter, or a bullpen arm so Phil Hughes could be Joba’s backup?

    Should the Yankees really trade AJAX for 2 months of Washburn? By all reports anyone better than these guys we’re going to cost some prospects.

  • Bo

    Maybe they should have done the smart thing and traded for a decent back end starter.

    • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

      Maybe they had a few decent back-end starters but are using them in the bullpen (or have them on the DL). The real problem, Bo, is that you want the Yankees to have 10 Major League starters at their disposal. That’s impossible.

      And don’t tell me Jarrod “I’m probably out for the season with a knee injury” Washburn is your definition of a “decent back end starter.”

      • Tom Zig

        it is either 10 ML starters or trade for Halladay.

        One of the two.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        And don’t tell me Jarrod “I’m probably out for the season with a knee injury” Washburn is your definition of a “decent back end starter.”

        It is. Bo wanted us to get Washburn, he admitted it himself.

        • Tom Zig

          Did Lanny and Sal want Washburn?

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Don’t state the obvious.

    • JobaWockeeZ

      And now Bo comes back from the dead! Did anyone ever see Lanny and Bo post on the same thread? I just realized that I don’t remember…

      Anyways who the hell would you want? You’re being unrealistic if you say Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Did anyone ever see Lanny and Bo post on the same thread? I just realized that I don’t remember…

        Yes. At different times of the day. Never at the same time.

        They’re the same person, dude. Confirmed. No reason to speculate on it.

        Confirmed.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Maybe they should have done the smart thing and traded for a decent back end starter.

      Trading for a decent back end starter would not have been the smart thing. It would have been the dumb thing. Wasting prospects for the marginal upgrade of a Washburn, Bannister, Garland, Davis, or Arroyo would have been pointless overkill, since those marginal upgrades over August and September Joba, Mitre, and Gaudin would have been moot. We’re a championship club without them, and they wouldn’t have started postseason games in any event.

      It would be a wasted trade. We would have given away prospects for a net gain of nothing. It would have done nothing for us other than win us meaningless games down the stretch that we could easily have lost without any adverse effect on anything.

      • ROBTEN

        This is too rational and well-explained, so here’s an equation for the baseball impaired to rant against (the MATHS!!!):

        0 = “5th starter”

        @ = prospect

        ! = 1 game losing streak

        N = number of prospects to be dealt for “back end starter”

        $ = wins

        (0 + ! ) – @(N+1) ? $

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          I apologize. Let me restate.

          A trade for a back end starter would have been dumb, because it would have upset the clubhouse chemistry that had been built where the guys rally around their teammates and pump each other up to have the bull-in-a-china-shop mentality you need to do all the intangible things that don’t show up in the box score that all title teams have to have when the pressure is on and the moment is at it’s biggest.

          Scott Brosius.

          That is all.

          Q.E.D.

        • ROBTEN

          oops,

          it should read

          (0 + !) – @(N + 1) [does not equal] $

          or, translated, “A one game losing streak does not mean trading away the farm for a fifth starter named Bronson Arroyo!”

      • Tom Zig

        Exactly, who gives a shit about the #5 starter now. All a trade like that would do is bring us from 102 wins to 104 wins. Woo hoo, I’m so happy we wasted prospects to get those two unneeded wins.

        I think the bigger question is what do we do about the #5 spot next year.

  • Zack

    People wanted to fire Girardi by May, yet now people say they should have held back Joba (who had a 3.13 era in April) earlier in the season.

    I really cant stand this debate anymore. Because its not even a debate, people are just throwing stuff out there to see what sticks. He should be in the bullpen, he should have been held back, he shouldnt even be in AAA- his ego is too big throw him in AA, his value is gone lets trade him for Washburn.

    http://nybaseballdigest.com/?m=200905&paged=3

    Mike Silva said Joba should be in the bullpen on May 27th- September 16 he is now saying Joba should have been held back. So which one is it?

  • pete

    In conclusion: no matter what, the fact that Joba is not yet a full-fledged, 220IP-throwing, cy young candidate is annoying.

  • http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/riddering/Baseball/reachforthestaaaaars.jpg Riddering

    Now that the Yankee brass has settled the B-Jobber debate for all but the delusional, I’m getting tired of the idea some put out there that Joba would pitch better if he wasn’t so sure of his role in the majors. That he actually prefers pitching only 4 innings so he can sit in the dugout and eat pork grinds for the rest of the game.

    Thankfully, this post took a different direction but that quote from Sherman’s article seems full of it.

  • http://GrandpaGaryorDoubleG Gary Rosenfeld

    This is concerning last night brawl. Yes Jorge should of let it go, but let’s look at what should of be done. 1. The umpire has to shoulder alot of what happened. Why wasnt there warnings given after the second hit bats men. Also 2. Why was the pitcher of Toronto standing in that area, is’t the correct place for him is to back up the catcher on a play at home plate not on the side the runner is running????? I think this should of never happened after that pitcher threw behind Jorge He should of been thrown out. everyone saw what his intent was. This is just my thoughts on this unfortunte situation.

  • http://josephdelgrippo.wordpress.com/ Joseph DelGrippo

    The way the Braves used Tommy Hanson this season and the way the Orioles are using Chris Tillman and Brian Matusz is indicative of the new trend of limiting innings.

    While Joba has been played around a bit this year, he has (as Joe P pointed out above) made a start every five days except for the brief period in August.

    Intead of that situation, which only caused more questions and headaches, it would have been better if the Yankees went the route the Dodgers did with Clayton Kershaw. Every five days, no riddles or excuses.

    Take him out after five if they are trailing, leave him in if he is crusing with a lead. Then you can remove him earlier if the team extends the lead in the middle innings.

    But the Dodgers did have the luxury of two full seasons of starts for Kershaw before this year.

    Bottom line their is no rhyme or reason, just let the kid pitch, but not until the ALCS. Unless Joba starts in the ALDS, he shouldn’t make the team.

    http://josephdelgrippo.wordpre.....t-a-start/