Too early to determine Hughes’s ultimate role
ByAfter two years of waiting, we’ve finally seen the emergence of Phil Hughes. The 23-year-old former No. 1 Yanks prospect struggled through injury and ineffectiveness in his first two major league seasons, and even had a slow start in 2009. A move to the bullpen changed that, and Hughes has been lights out ever since. It’s like the new role was an on switch for Hughes, whose stuff markedly improved as his appearances became shorter.
Hughes has thrown 44.2 innings since moving to the bullpen in early June, striking out 44 to just 12 walks and posting a 1.41 ERA. His fastball has life unlike we’ve seen from him, which helps set up his curveball, still his best secondary pitch. In a matter of a few weeks he went from promising but underperforming starter to lights out reliever. The Yankees now control the back end of close games, and have certainly won a game or two they might have lost with a lesser guy holding down the lead.
This is the Phil Hughes that made the cover of the Baseball America Prospect Handbook 2007. The guy who has life on his fastball and a nasty hook to go with it. yet it does seem curious that he only rediscovered himself after a move to the bullpen. Could it be that he’s better suited to more frequent, shorter appearances, rather than longer ones every five days?
Billy Campione of Full Count Pitch thinks so. He builds a case that the bullpen has brought out the best in Hughes, and that he simply cannot replicate those numbers in the rotation. That’s not such an outlandish case if based only on Hughes’s performance so far in the majors. But considering the other information available about Hughes, it seems likely that he’ll be able to make a successful transition back to the rotation.
Campione thinks that, “Hughes’ achievements in relief have come due to a drastically different approach that he will find impossible to replicate as a starter.” He goes on to note Hughes’s average major league fastball speeds, around 91 mph in 2007 and 2008, but up to 95 mph this season while in relief. Hughes’s fastball velocity was one area of concern in the past, especially last year as he faltered in the early going. That’s because his scouting report hyped it as a bit faster. (Sorry, sub required.)
Hughes sits at 91-95 mph with his four-seam fastball and touches 96.
If he was hitting these speeds as a starter in the minors three years ago, and he’s averaging at the top-end of that range as a reliever now, chances are he can again throw that hard as a starter. No, he won’t be averaging 95 mph with his fastball as a starter, but he could easily sit 92-93, dialing it up when he needs it. It’s quite possible that the transition to the bullpen allowed Hughes the chance to find that lost velocity.
Another Campione concern: “Looking at one of Hughes’ most recent appearances out of the pen, his pitches consistently appear in the middle of the strike zone.” This has anecdotal merit — I think we can all agree that Hughes throws balls in the middle because he can blow it by guys. It also has some statistical merit, as Campione displays a strike zone plot from a recent start that shows some fastballs near the middle of the zone. Again, from the BA scouting report: “As he gains experience, his excellent control (his career K-BB ratio is 269-54) should evolve into above-average command.” Hughes is definitely throwing it by guys right now, but as he dials it down slightly in the rotation, we could see his command evolve, meaning he’d leave fewer pitches over the middle of the plate.
There’s also the argument that the bullpen allows Hughes to scrap his weakest weapon, the changeup, a pitch he might need as a starter. It’s true that Hughes’s changeup is miles behind his fastball and curve, but there’s still plenty of time for him to develop one. In the meantime, he can employ a cutter to help keep hitters off balance. In addition, it appears Hughes uses two types of curveballs: one with a tighter spin, almost a power-curve type pitch, the other a knuckle curve a la Mike Mussina. These pitches can help him get by as he develops his changeup.
Maybe Phil Hughes is best suited to a role in the bullpen, as a setup man and eventually a closer. There’s certainly no ruling that out at this point. In the same way, there’s no ruling out his ability to be a top of the rotation starter. He wasn’t the Yankees No. 1 prospect because of his perceived ability to succeed in the bullpen. Scouts at Baseball American and elsewhere raved over him because he had, and still has, the potential to be a top starter.
No matter where he ultimately ends up, the Yankees would serve themselves best by moving Hughes back to the rotation in 2010. If he succeeds there, he’ll be a boon to the franchise for years to come. If he fails, we know he can succeed in the bullpen. It’s the same deal as Joba. When you have a pitcher with frontline starter potential, you best serve your team’s interests by seeing if he can succeed as a starter. If it’s clear that he won’t reach his potential in that role, it’s back to the bullpen. But until we find out what Hughes can do as a starter, we can’t pigeonhole him in the bullpen. That decision shouldn’t come for another few years, after the Yankees have a good long look at Phil Hughes the starter.
sigh.
The old ‘what have you done for me lately’ logic is at it again.
It never ends…And with Hughes needing to build innings next year…ugh.
Maybe he can go to Puerto Rico and pitch there for the winter?
I’m sure the Yankees do plan to have Hughes pitch this winter as a starter. I seem to remember reading a comment from Cahsman that implied it was likely.
They should just have him start 2010 late, and when he starts the season it should be in the minors. You’re not going to ratchet up his innings by a significant enough margin this winter to make it worthwhile and, frankly, I’d kinda prefer for him to get some rest after pitching an (basically an) entire MLB season and postseason than to go somewhere to pitch more and add some innings to his total just so we feel comfortable inching up his innings limit in 2010. This isn’t some kid who spent some time in the minors and needs some more innings after a relatively light workload during the season… This is a kid who will, at that time, just have finished an MLB season and postseason. Send him home to rest and work-out after the season instead of sending him someplace to pitch, then start him late in 2010 as a starter in the minors before he joins the MLB rotation. Then, when he’s in MLB, let him go out and throw his innings.
YES! Mondesi’s on board with Evil Plan Z.
Fully on-board.
I’m over the idea of moving guys around, fucking with their innings, shuffling them between the rotation and bullpen, etc. It’s ridiculous. And… Obviously we don’t know what the definite results of all the shuffling around and messing with innings and stuff is, but I don’t like anything that adds another variable into a pitcher’s development. Who the F knows if you’re making these guys more susceptible to injury or getting in their heads or whatever. Why take the chance any longer, though, when there’s a chance you’re doing those things?
This isn’t to say I’m killing the Yankees for what happened with Hughes this year (although I’ve long been on the record as being against his original move to the bullpen) or with Joba lately. With Joba lately they’ve done the right thing, I think, given the situation they found themselves in. But let’s learn from the experience and let’s not put ourselves in that position again, eh boys?
Joba to the pen part Deux???? Give me a break, should every young pitcher who does well in the 8th inning automatically stay in the pen? Hell no. Hughes has been and always will be a starter. In the past, pitchers would come up as RP’s 1st, get their feet wet and then move to the rotation. Why are our guys any different?? Fact is, we need Hughes in the rotation because we wont have Andy next year. Next years starting rotation….
CC
AJ
Joba
Hughes
???
I would love to see Zack McAllister ( had a sick year moving through the Yankee system and started a playoff game for AAA this past week ) eventually get that #5 spot, but he wont be ready until midseason at the earliest. For next year, we may need to sign an innings eating vet to fill out the back end of the rotation. There is no doubt that Phil will be in the mix for a starting spot next season. Maybe McAllister can work the 8th in the 2nd half of 2010 and we can start this discussion all over again…YIPEE!!!!!
Its great to see Phil do well and get his confidence back, the kind of swagger we saw 2 years ago when he dominated a strong Texas lineup on the road. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK PHIL, CANT WAIT TO SEE YOU IN THE ROTATION!!!!!
We might have Andy next year.
Also:
http://www.scrantontimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.29791!image/3680017663.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_490/3680017663.jpg (safe)
Link fail.
RAB Filter: 1
TSJC: 0
Son of a bitch!
Looks like it’s back to porn for me. It’s where I’m most suited.
Later, guys.
tommiesmith, meet tinyURL
tinyURL, meet tommiesmith.
We can only hope…
See, I could live with McAllister in the pen, because he doesn’t have number 1 starter upside.
Have you ever actually seen McAllister pitch? Maybe the Yankees think he is a top of the rotation starter.
And if the Yankees think that, he won’t be in the pen.
Problem solved.
After two years of waiting, we’ve finally seen the emergence of Phil Hughes.
He was who we thought he was.
I wanna crown his ass.
PLAYOFFS?!?!
You play to win!
Let’s wedge it. Let’s wedge it.
“No matter where he ultimately ends up, the Yankees would serve themselves best by moving Hughes back to the rotation in 2010. If he succeeds there, he’ll be a boon to the franchise for years to come. If he fails, we know he can succeed in the bullpen.”
Um, I don’t get it: if Hughes has shown he’s not productive enough as a starter and has been excellent in the ‘pen then why send him back to the starting rotation? Seems like too much wishful thinking and a waste of time.
Oh, yeah that potential. Not every minor league star–even top picks, right Alex Gordon?–comes thru in The Big Show; and we all know plenty of low rung choices who become superb additions to the majors. (Got your HoF bags packed, Mike Piazza?) That’s why they come up: to see if that potential can be harnessed or if it doesn’t apply above AAA. This whole thing with giving players interminable chances to prove themselves year after year is tiresome.
And what is it they say about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?
Hughes has a grand total of 141.1 innings as a starter in his MLB career. Too small of a sample size to see if he can hack it or if he cannot. He’s shown brilliance, and he’s shown he can be bad. Just like all pitching prospects, even the ones outside the Yankee organization.
You have to give him time, because with easy logic – 200 innings of solid pitching >>>> 60 innings of above average pitching.
Um, I don’t get it: if Hughes has shown he’s not productive enough as a starter and has been excellent in the ‘pen then why send him back to the starting rotation? Seems like too much wishful thinking and a waste of time.
Because he’s 23 years old and has a grand total of 141.1 IP as a starter. You don’t give up on starting a guy that young with less than a full season’s worth of starting pitching under his belt. If you wnat to make him a reliever, sure, make him a reliever after he completely and totally fails as a starter or can’t stay healthy.
You’re giving up already? We can’t conclude anyhting with his SSS.
Phil Hughes is 23 years old. I highly doubt that he has been given “interminable” chances at being a starter. Go check Roy Halladay’s numbers during his first few years in the majors. Check Zach Greinke’s numbers 2 years ago.
mr. santana too
Greinke’s numbers 2 years ago were quite good.
You’re thinking 2005
Or Josh Beckett. Or CC Sabathia. Or Johan Santana.
I’ll look into it.
As for my “interminable” comment, it just seems to me–and of course, I could be wrong–that Top 5 prospects should be demonstrating why they are top 5 prospects as soon as they come up. It’s the lesser talents with a potential to be solid players that should be awarded a lot more patience. No?
As for my “interminable” comment, it just seems to me–and of course, I could be wrong–that Top 5 prospects should be demonstrating why they are top 5 prospects as soon as they come up. It’s the lesser talents with a potential to be solid players that should be awarded a lot more patience. No?
No.
(also, Hughes IS demonstrating why he’s a top 5 prospect as soon as he comes up. He’s just not doing it consistently. That’s what young players do.)
“Top 5 prospects should be demonstrating why they are top 5 prospects as soon as they come up”
What about his no hitter into the 7th inning in Texas back in 2007? What about coming into Game 3 of the ALDS after Clemens’ leg fell off and securing the win. Were these not the flashes of brilliance that we expect to see from big time prospects? There are only so many Tim Lincecum’s out there who get called up and dominate from day 1.
phil hughes will have a longer more overall successful career than tim lincecum.
THAT JUST HAPPENED!!!!
Greinke was a top everything Prospect. As great as King Felix was/is, he even had some struggles. Edison Volquez (maybe he’ll get the ROY this year) was TERRIBLE with the Rangers.
Guys like Lincecum and Verlander are rare (and Verlander threw some real garbage last year) that come up with big billing and succeed immediately.
This is why you are wrong
Kiko, Phil just turned 23 freaking years old, what you saw from him in the rotation was 22 and younger. What kind of chance has he really gotten to stick in the rotation? By your estimate, you would have stuck the following players in the pen when they were still learning on the job…
Johan Santana = @ 21 = 6.49 ERA…@ 22 = 4.74 ERA
John Lackey = @ 24 = 4.63 ERA…. @ 25 = 4.67 ERA
David Cone = @ 23 = 5.56 ERA
Roy Halladay = @ 23 = 10.64 ERA
AJ Burnett = @ 23 = 4.79 ERA
Zack Greinke = @ 21 = 5.80 ERA…@ 22 = 4.27 ERA
John Lester = @ 22 = 4.76 ERA….@ 23 = 4.57 ERA
Joe Saunders = @ 24 = 7.72 ERA
James Shields = @ 24 = 4.84 ERA
Not everyone is going to be Doc Godden or Roger Clemens dominating at 20, the rest of the SPers..lets say 95% of them, come up, get their brains beaten in and then figure it out. Do you not think David Price or Yovanni Gallardo will improve over the next couple years? Come on man, just another spoiled Yankee fan that wants everything NOW without actually having to put in the work. Let me help you out…
de?vel?op?ment – /d??v?l?pm?nt/ –noun – 1. the act or process of developing; growth; progress:
Never midn about that. How many wins do they have? I can’t tell if those pitchers were good or not.
Seriously this man speaks the truth. You don’t give up on young starters who haven’t even started a full season yet in the majors.
Look at those names above. Look at what they turned into. Teams didn’t give up on them.
Jba and Hughes have potential and we’ve seen part of it. They should be startes until proven otherwise.
Never mind about that. How many wins do they have?
What era did they play in?
Too early to tell.
Do you love the return of FJM as much as I do?
I did.
Past tense, though. It was only but a day.
I hope it’s not true, though. It was such a joy to see the guys rip sportswriters again. Hope they have some cameos on deadspin in the future.
Trust me, I’m not a spoiled Yankee fan; far from it. Please don’t confuse me with the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately? knuckleheads. If Hughes hadn’t been a top 5 major league prospect who was hyped as the Second Coming I’d be more patient with the whole starter thing.
Well dont let the media machine alter your perception of him. The reason he was so hyped was because of his minor league numbers, I know the minors are the minors, but his numbers weren’t just good, they were INCREDIBLE! That’s whey he was so hyped. We’ve seen glimpses of his stuff…in the playoffs against the Tribe, at Texas. I really think those injures he suffered in Texas and the up and down battle after that day have affected him mentally and physically. Make no mistake though, he’s got his swagger back with the confidence built in the pen. At 6′5″ and 240 lbs, this kid is a HORSE! Once he gets that changeup down ( took Johan until 24 to perfect it ), he’ll be a beast. He has great control, a nice fastball a dominate curve and a he’s already made HUGE strides in one year with his cutter. Give him next year to get his innings up, then in 2011 he’ll be a full time starter with no restrictions. After that time we’ll have a better feel for what we have. The same can be said for Joba. This year is pretty much a wash, the real Joba will “start” to surface next year.
If Hughes hadn’t been a top 5 major league prospect who was hyped as the Second Coming I’d be more patient with the whole starter thing.
That’s the exact opposite rationale that you should have.
Because Phil Hughes was a top 5 major league prospect who was hyped as the Second Coming, you should be MORE patient with the whole starter thing. Because it will be more worth it when he puts it all together.
If you wanna write off Wilkin De La Rosa as destined for the bullpen forever right this second, very few people will agree with you. If you wanna say that Al Aceves should be considered a permanent reliever, that would be okay.
You’re looking at it backwards. More potential = more rope. Less potential = less rope.
Exactly, knowing he has top notch talent is more reason to give him the opportunity to be a starter, not less.
Sorry:
“If you wanna write off Wilkin De La Rosa as destined for the bullpen forever right this second, very few people will DISagree with you.”
But since he was such a highly touted prospect, shouldn’t we be willing to give him more time to figure it out?
young rookie starter makes 27 starts, pitches 155.2 innings to a 6-14 record with a 5.61 ERA and 1.638 WHIP
his name? Greg Maddux
In before the masses scream that his “approach” is the key to his success, he’s the next Mo, and he’s more valuable as a reliever than a starter.
Billy Campione of Full Count Pitch thinks so. He builds a case that the bullpen has brought out the best in Hughes, and that he simply cannot replicate those numbers in the rotation.
Concrete operational stage of Piagetian cognitive development FAIL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....chology%29
Fascinating. TSJC – Are you a Psychology Professor by trade?
Nope, legislative aide. I actually didn’t like psychology class all that much, but I remember Piaget, Erikson, Maslow, and the rest pretty well. Interesting theories.
I just have lots of crazy stuff that I read, see, or hear once and then remember forever floating around in my brain.
Especially boobs. Lots and lots of boobs.
I am the same. I guess that’s why I enjoyed the comment.
You’re a legislative aide? Or you just have lots and lots of boobs floating around in your head?
Either way, it should be a lot of fun, eh?
Just have a lot of stuff floating around in my head. I’m actually in business management.
I’m actually more of an ass and leg man. Don’t care about boobs as much. But I like large nipples, if that counts.
I’m actually more of an ass and leg man.
Cornbread…
http://yosayword.files.wordpre.....melaku.jpg
… ain’t nothin wrong with that!
LMAO
I bet when she laughs her ass off, it takes a long time.
“He wasn’t the Yankees No. 1 prospect because of his perceived ability to succeed in the bullpen.”
He wasn’t just the Yanks #1 prospect. He was BA’s top pitching prospect in 2007 (if you exclude dicek)
This is something that gets forgotten. He wasn’t just a guy, he was the guy. You don’t just stick someone like that in the pen, unless something drastic happens.
I can’t stand reading these writers articles… YOU THROW HARDER WHEN YOU THROW AN INNING ONLY. WHY KEEP IT IN THE TANK OVER 6?????? Hughes was 91-93 as a starter and dialed it up when he needed to get a guy out. He struggled as the strikezone in the minors is more generous than in the majors. He’s had experience and has learned he can get guys out up here. It’ll be a different Hughes in the rotation PERIOD! Same with Joba. He throws hard as a reliever cuz he knows he’s got an inning, 2 max. As a starter, you leave some in the tank for later innings. Its the same with anyone. Randy Johnso will be coming out of the Giants pen in the coming days. Anyone be shocked if he’s hitting 94-96??
I’d bet Joba’s reduced velocity is not just attributable to only having to throw 1-2 innings. Last year’s injury, more innings and fatigue are all likely to be contributing factors. He’s still building arm strength back (we hope).
Maybe Phil Hughes is best suited to a role in the bullpen, as a setup man and eventually a closer. There’s certainly no ruling that out at this point.
But more to the point, even if that is true, it does not mean he should be placed into a role in the bullpen.
For example, I’m hung like a moose, and well suited to a role in doing pornography. I’m also good at governmental policy analysis and public advocacy–not as good as I am at driving the ol’ meat-products 18-wheeler semi down the pink-paved one-lane controlled access highway, of course–and since the work of policy analysis and advocacy is a more important, more socially beneficial role than the role of trimming the hedges of many a British topiary garden with my illegal-in-nine-countries landscaping tool, that’s the work I should be doing even though I’m far less physically and emotionally dominant in it.
I hope that analogy helps.
ietc
But even the point that a pitcher is more suited to be in the pen. Doesn’t this hold true for a lot of pitchers, if not all? Because what this is basically saying is that the pitcher can do better there and have a ‘bulldog’ mentality.
This is such bullshit, any pitcher coming out of the pen over the long term is going to be a better pitcher* more likely than not.
* of course said pitcher is not a better pitcher because he is throwing less innings. This is a given, especially on this blog here. SP >> RP
Bulldog mentality is on the same level as:
“You can’t predict baseball”
“He is proud of his fastball”
“He is a professional hitter”
Do you know who was said to have a bulldog mentality?
Brad Penny.
Bull in a china shop.
Perhaps even a bulldog in a china shop.
I’m also good at governmental policy analysis and public advocacy–not as good as I am at driving the ol’ meat-products 18-wheeler semi down the pink-paved one-lane controlled access highway, of course–and since the work of policy analysis and advocacy is a more important, more socially beneficial role than the role of trimming the hedges of many a British topiary garden with my illegal-in-nine-countries landscaping tool, that’s the work I should be doing even though I’m far less physically and emotionally dominant in it.
Is the length of that run-on sentence supposed to mirror your claimed moosehood?
I’m turning you on, aren’t I? Hold on, let me put this AutoZone uniform on… what about now?
LMFAO
Where the rubbers meet the road.
*wink*
lmao, i love your writing style
More of the same dopiness.
We can look forward to years of this, unfortunately.
Probably every pitching prospect as they come up at this rate.
Well at least the Joba “debate” has made all the fans well prepared for this one.
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ent-550240
I’m starting to think TSJC’s response may be right.
Heh.
Don’t worry, I’ve already come up with a plan. I think you’ll like it.
Yeah and frankly tired of listening to it. They are both going to be starters, end of story!!
Hughes to the bullpen has been the only thing that’s stopped the Joba to the bullpen discussion.
By the time the 2010 season comes to an end, Ian Kennedy will be the 8th inning guy.
You heard it here first.
but will he be on an innings limit for 2011? seems like that’s the trend.
166 is his high since a Yankee, so he should be good for 180-190, thus making his innings an essential non-issue.
He’ll be hitting 92 and scouts will be raving about his bulldog intensity
We have a winner!
Could IPK be recalled to the majors THIS year?
Why not let him throw a few innings out of the pen, just to get him ready for next year when he’ll undoubtedly make the show at some point(if he’s not traded).
Get him used to pitching the 8th, I like what you’re saying!
But I strongly doubt they bring him back this year. Aren’t there all sorts of rules with him going to the Az Fall League? Part of it being that he’s been on the DL for all of the season?
He will singlehandedly be the reason we’re a title contender. All because of his amazing bullpen performance and how it gave the team the confidence it needed to go win ballgames.
Of course. Nothing is more important than shortening games.
Except for what era you played in, of course.
But that doesn’t matter unless you’re the one who gets the win.
so what you’re trying to tell me is……era…for the win?
Phil Hughes velocity looks like it’s a bit higher as a starter this year than it has been in the past. It was basically back in line with where it was when he was first called up in 2007. I wonder if the injuries the last two year caused him to lose some arm strength/velocity and this year his velocity is back to ‘normal’ because he’s been healthy all year.
Of course, he’s still throwing harder in the pen than in the rotation, but there’s nothing surprising about that.
You would think that recovering from broken ribs would make it a little harder to really crank a high velocity fastball.
Does anyone think the Yankees should have been more patient in allowing Mariano Rivera to develop as a starter? AND, I am NOT asking this as justification to put Joba or Hughes in the pen. I want to see both of them succeed as starters. I just wonder if Rivera could have been a great, or even very good starter, given the chance.
Rivera works with the cutter. He has lived on one pitch which means he doesn’t have the multitude of pitches to face the same batters 3, 4 times. That is why he ultimately became a reliever
Actually, that’s not true. He didn’t throw the cutter until after they made him a reliever. He discovered the pitch by accident while throwing in the bullpen in 96 or 97 and just went with it.
I think he was a fastball/slider guy when he first came up. 2 pitch guy, and 2nd pitch wasn’t good enough to get by with just that.
Bob – the problem with Mo was that he was a 1 pitch pitcher, Phil has 2 above average pitches and now is developing a cutter and change. When Mo was a starter, he didn’t learn his cutter yet. Once he learned that pitch, it was all he threw. Mo is a very unique individual, he has no comparison. NO pitcher in the entire history of the league was so dominate with 1 pitch, a freak of nature.
Exactly.
Joba and Phil were great prospects (and still are) because they had multiple (as in 3, 4, or 5) ML caliber pitches. Mo never had that much pitch diversity (at least of good quality).
Which is similarly why the Sox moving Bard to the pen after one bad low-minors campaign is more justifiable than us moving Brackman to the pen after one bad low-minors campaign.
I knew someone would gve me that reply. And I know it is the right answer. I just wondered if he was that good at mastering one pitch, couldn’t he master one or two more?
The question is just a “what if”. I ask it because those of us who understand that startes are more valuable than relievers, just have to wonder if a reliever as talented as Mo could have been a good to great starter.
I really wouldn’t change anything in retrospect even if the crystal ball could tell me that Mo could have developed into a good/great starter becuase I think his mental composure and his total, freak-of-nature mastery of his cutter is truly unique in baseball history. It is also one of the biggest reasons for the Yankees to have the great 1996-2003 run.
It’s intriguing, but probably moot. I just doubt Mo could survive as a starter trying to turn a lineup over multiple times a night. That cutter is deadly, but eventually big league hitters will start to time it when they see it for the 12th time that night.
We’ve even seen that to a small degree in how the BoSox (who face him a lot more than other non AL East teams) hit him better.
Not really. Mo was 25/26, and really only had the big fastball.
Mo wasn’t considered the type of starting pitcher that Joba & Hughes were/are. If you look he put up some nice numbers in the minors, but didn’t have as strong K/9 or H/9 as Hughes
I wonder this a lot. I know he’s basically turned into a (really super awesome) one-trick-pony with the cutter, but you’ve gotta believe that if he stayed in the rotation, he’d develop that changeup he always talked about throwing, and I’m sure he could’ve learned some sort of breaking pitch. It would be very interesting to see what would’ve happened if they’d given Mo more than 10 starts.
But, it’s also worth pointing out that when Rivera was making those 10 starts in 1995, he was 25, not 23.
That’s it exactly. That’s why I posed the question. It is generally agreed that relievers are what they are because they weren’t good enough to start. But, if you take the greatest releiver of all time, doesn’t that say that he had the potential to be a good/great starter?
he didn’t have a good secondary pitched developed by the time he was 25. Chances were, at that point, he wasn’t ever going to be able to develop the necessary repertoire for a starter.
Well, Rivera was a few years older than Hughes and Chamberlain when they moved him to the bullpen. So, even though he never got that many major league starts, I don’t think it was a missed opportunity. Indeed, at that time it would’ve been hard to see Rivera as being a successful reliever for more than a few years, since he had yet to develop the cutter, let alone a great starter.
I’m raising the terriost threat level to Orange.
Shit bro, I’ve been sitting at Red for a couple weeks now. Where the hell you been?
The terrorists are making a comeback. We need something to distract them
“The
terroriststerriosts are making a comeback. We need something to distract them”http://i.blogads.com/647532550.....d3b9fd64de (safe)
Done.
2 options to handle his innings next year, imo
option A) Start him in AAA…take it easy on his innings…control them til he can come to the Bigs and throw every 5 days with no worry of him reaching his innings limit. Which i would think would be mid to late May. And have him for the rest of the season baring injury of course.
option B) Let him go balls to the walls from the start to the finish, baring injury of course…and once he reaches his limit…shut him down for the rest of the season.
can’t see the yanks actually going thru with B) if he’s pitching well and they’re in a pennant race. then they’ll go with C) called joba 2009 revisited
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....c&NR=1
In all honesty, if we there were only two options:
Option 1: Phil Hughes – Starter; Joba Chamberlain – Reliever
Option 2: Joba Chamberlain – Starter; Phil hughes – Reliever
Which option would you be more in favor of as of right now?
The Kobayashi Maru.
Whale Wars reference…ftw
Golf clap.
I’d create an option 3.
Joba, Hughes — Starter
The purpose of this question wasn’t to elect the obvious, yet non-existent, 3rd option…but just a look back on who was the better reliever between the two and who has been a better starter between the two…I’m not stressing the 2nd question as much as the 1st question…as I wish for them to both be starters…more curious about the first part…
The purpose of this question wasn’t to elect the obvious, yet non-existent, 3rd option…
I know, but I did it anyway. Because I’ve got a huge wang.
What must happen in the offseason:
1. Tell Hughes he’s got the inside track on the 5 spot.
2. Get a GREAT reliever (ala Huston Street quality).
Removing Hughes from the BP without replacing him with a quality replacement (NOT BRUNEY & Melancon is not ready) would only inflame the keep-Hughes-in-teh-pen community.
Z-Mac and Nova are simply not ready to contribute to the majors in 2010, so returning Hughes to starting is imperative. However, the need to replace quality with quality is also necessary and should trump the DH and OF corner questions.
It doesn’t seem as if there are any real strong relievers ready to be come FAs. The role Hughes is filling now could be filled internally, though. Marte will presumably be healthy and his innings, along with an increased role for David Robertson, could fill the void left by Hughes. There are also other minor league options to fill out the bullpen, like Mike Dunn, Romulo Sanchez, and Kroenke. Let’s also not count Melancon out just because of some recent struggles with control.
It doesn’t seem as if there are any real strong relievers ready to be come FAs.
http://nbcsportsmedia3.msnbc.c.....medium.jpg (safe)
Or:
http://assets.espn.go.com/phot.....no_580.jpg (safe)
Or:
http://sjbravos.mlblogs.com/mike%20gonzalez.jpg (safe)
Extremely late but giving up a 1st round pick to sign a Type A relief pitcher strikes me as a dumb move for the team to make.
would you call what valverde does a “fist pump”?
would you call it a seizure?
Does he voices in his head when he gets a save?
hear*
would you call what valverde does a “fist pump”?
He’s perfect for the Yankees. Joba and Valverde together, we’ll fistpump these other non-fistpumpers into submission.
(that sounded dirtier than it should have.)
Wait, I got it: Sign Valverde for the 8th, and Aubrey Huff to DH. SUCK THIS FISTPUMP, YOU LOSERS!!!
/oversight by me.
Thanks, Tommie.
Don’t trade for one.
There are plenty on the market – Rafael Soriano, Jose Valverde, Mike Gonzalez, Fernando Rodney, and Chad Cordero!!
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....ree-a.html
“Removing Hughes from the BP without replacing him with a quality replacement (NOT BRUNEY & Melancon is not ready) would only inflame the keep-Hughes-in-teh-pen community.”
I couldn’t care less if the Flat-Earth Society gets their panties in a bunch, and I’d blow a gasket if the Yankees made any personnel decisions based on not wanting to upset a segment of fans/media. That’s the worst reason in the world to make a personnel decision.
I couldn’t care less if the Flat-Earth Society gets their panties in a bunch…
They’re terriosts, Mondesi.
Rule #1 of Political Salesmanship: Stay on message.
Good point… I’ll find my inner Luntz, my bad.
Exactly, Cashman doesn’t build the team around not having the fans & media flip out, and as history is shown, there will always be something that they flip out on.
If the Yankees do nothing to the pitching next year but keep what they have and have Hughes in the rotation, they’ll be fine. If the pen sucks (such as the beginning of this year), adjustments will be made.
Hughes obviously makes the transition back to starting next year. Just like when we made the move with Joba, the bullpen will always be there for him if things don’t pan out in the rotation. We have Mariano for a little while longer, so Starter > 8th inning setup man. Perhaps when Mariano is looking to hang them up we can re-evaluate as we will have a good idea of how Hughes and Joba will perform in the rotation moving forward, but for now its clear that Hughes should move back into a starting role.
In regards to innings his innings cap will be at least what Joba’s was this year maybe even higher because his career high in innings pitched is higher than Joba’s. Although I believe that was in 2006, so its been a while.
Whys it even discussed? You know exactly what their plan is going to be. They are going to do the same thing they have done with Joba this yr as he builds innings. They think hes a starter long term. Just like they always said with Joba. The question is not whether hes better in one role or the other. its what they will do with him. He will be def be the 5th starter come 2010.
Whys it even discussed?
Estella: We are who we are, people don’t change.
We should all come to this blog and just look at an empty page.
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Question: ARE YOU READY FOR MONDAY NIGHT REHABILITATION????
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Fitz-Hume: Why am I here?… Why are you here? Why is anybody here? I think it was Jean-Paul Sartre who once said… how do you spell spell Sartre?
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http://i435.photobucket.com/al.....rd/RAB.jpg
Why’s the MSM still talking about it?
You clearly have to give Hughes at least one more shot at starting next year, if not two more years. The difference between 200 innings a year and 70 innings a year is too large not to at least give it a real shot.
Hughes – 25 starts 6 innings a start = 150 innings. I wouldn’t want to start Hughes in the MLB right off the bat, 2 starts at Triple-A to begin the season. The 4th and 5th (Hughes) Starter should miss a start before the All-Star break and Girardi will probably find a way to relieve Hughes of a couple of starts throughout the year after the All-Star Break, I really want to see Hughes in his 10th+ start in a row somewhere in June, Than seeing how he pitches after the All-Star Break with extended rest should be interesting.
Hughes high is 146, he should be good for ~170.
Even with winterball and minor league playoffs factored in, he’s only thrown about 100 innings a year 3 seasons since then. Seems to be really pushing it to use that number as a baseline at this point.
I just go by the Verducci rules on this one, and thats what it goes by.
Verducci goes strictly by the previous year. Some people feel that’s a little too restrictive and feel it’s ok to go back a little bit.
No, it doesn’t.
Yes, it does:
“The unofficial industry standard is that no young pitcher should throw more than 30 more innings than he did the previous season. It’s a general rule of thumb, and one I’ve been tracking for about a decade. When teams violate the incremental safeguard, it’s amazing how often they pay for it.”
Verducci saying it himself
Also Verducci saying it himself, same article, emphasis mine:
It’s generally the previous year. But it’s not strictly the previous year. Verducci allows for the previous high-water mark to be used as the baseline rather than only the previous year.
Verducci gives an estimate. The yanks have teams of doctors n rsearchers on this
I’ll give you that, but he is pretty clear that it’s not a general rule. He’s only applying that if there was an injury the previous season. Hughes had two consecutive shortened seasons for injuries, then one shortened one due to reduced roles. You’re really stretching Verducci’s rule to apply a career high to Hughes now.
Hughes’s move to the pen happened just when he was finally healthy long enough to get his fastball back. He’ll end up being a top end starter but he got incredibly valuable experience and confirmation in the pen this year.
Waiiiit a minute. I don’t get it. When everyone was ranting and raving about Joba, part of their argument was that his demeanor was perfect for the relief role. A starter can’t be emotional and get through 7 innings, but it’s essential for most relievers.
Now “good face” Hughes, calm, collected, unflappable, has the perfect makeup for a reliever? Which is it? Should every pitcher be a reliever?
Should every pitcher be a reliever
Probably because if we think about every pitcher is either:
A. A reliever
B. A starter and thus would be able to put up better numbers as a reliever.
I’d like to have this problem every year with a new pitcher
With Halladay, Lee, and Beckett available as free agents before the 2011 season I wouldn’t be surprised if Hughes bounced between roles or moved back to the pen if a guy like Halladay were signed.
A rotation of these guys would be scary good.
Halladay
Sabathia
Burnett
Joba
Hughes
Then Hughes is either the #5 starter or 8th inning reliever.