Holliday’s top choice the Bronx, says Davidoff


As we recover from the collective hangover brought on by the Yanks’ epic Game 2 victory, the rumor mill is a-tilt today. The rumor-du-jour involves Matt Holliday, one of the top free agents this winter. According to Ken Davidoff, Holliday’s top choice is New York.

Although the Sunder Insider piece isn’t online as part of Newsday’s awful new website, Davidoff summarized the rumor:

According to a person in the loop, Matt Holliday’s top choices in free agency are: 1) Yankees; and 2) Mets. The Oklahoma native is apparently not intimidated by New York.

As of now, I’d say the Yankees don’t want to make another large purchase like that, in the wake of last winter’s shopping spree – and if they win it all, then the pressure from the yakosphere (trademark Neil Best) to get Holliday should alleviate.

The Mets? Based on Jeff Wilpon’s words from a few weeks ago, they’ll consider anything and everything. Of course, many industry folks are very skeptical that the Mets will actually do so. Holliday’s primary reservation about joining the Mets? Yup, hitting at Citi Field. Maybe they can alter the dimensions? Jerry Manuel hinted near the end of the season that wasn’t impossible.

Mike Silva, writing about this rumor, reminds us of a recent Jon Heyman report in which the Sports Illustrated scribe’s sources say Holliday’s agent will ask for seven years and $150 million. That, of course, is just an initial request. Holliday would probably be content with five years and $100 million.

Meanwhile, in the Bronx, Bill Madden checks in with the Yanks’ off-season preparations. Even though the team on the field is focused on their ultimate goal, the Front Office is busy assessing free agency. Madden believes the Yanks will resign either Hideki Matsui or Johnny Damon on a short deal and attempt to fill in from free agency. Interestingly, Madden drops Justin Duchscherer’s name and picks Desmond DeChone Figgins as a left field replacement. Never mind the reality that Figgins has 36 games of left field experience under his belt.

If the Yanks’ choice comes down to one between Holliday and Figgins, I pick Matt Holliday. He’s two years younger than Figgins and probably won’t suffer through as big a decline as Figgins would. The Yanks have around $50 million coming off the books this year and no major pitching holes to fill. They can spend the money on offense, and Holliday wouldn’t be a poor choice if the price is right. But will the price really be right?


  1. JM says:

    Well, Holliday, you are not my first choice.

    • Just to play devil’s advocate, what is your first choice? I don’t really see the Yanks going with an outfield of Swisher/Gardner/Cabrera, and despite some nice plays last night, Damon’s a defensive liability. The Yanks will have to look at filling a left field hole this winter.

      • Tony says:

        Someone not demanding 15+ a year.

        • Tony says:

          To clarify, AL Matt Holliday wasn’t worth what he’ll get in FA. Is that SS and unfair and whatever else? Somewhat, but I don’t see the need to take on that kind of risk.

        • That still doesn’t answer my question. Here is the list of potential free agents. Scroll down a bit from outfielders. Who would you rather have?

          • Mike HC says:

            Why not Abreu for maybe a third of the price?

          • Sweet Dick Willie says:

            Same as they have this year. Bring back Damon & Matsui on one year deals.

            I’m afraid Matt Holliday’s tenure in the Bronx would make fans long for Steve Kemp.

          • iYankees says:

            Some of the responses are baffling. Holliday is the best left fielder available this winter and is one of the best left fielders in the game (if not the best). His defense is good, his offense is good, and he is a young and athletic player. He’d be an excellent number 2 hitter as well, given his speed and patience. He’s a great fit for the Yankees.

            • OldYanksFan says:

              Agreed. In this economy, he’s worth around 4/$60… but he will get more. So should we get a lesser player and save $2 or $3m a year? I think not.

              The Sox spent nothing last year, and I’m sure Theo has a mandate to get some impact FAs. Maybe Mauer after 2010. Whatever, the Sox will continue to be a very competative team. As mentioned, with $50m coming off the books, an AAV of $16-17m for Holliday won’t hurt us at all.

              And saying JD -OR- Matsui doesn’t do the trick. Matsui can’t play the OF, JD can. If we need a LF’er, Matsui is not in the running. They both had good years (at an advanced age) and will want to use 2009 as a springboard for ‘one last’ decent contract. JD especially would take a BIG risk in signing a one year deal. If he did, and had a bad 2010, his career is basically over.

      • JM says:

        Well, my first choice would have to be bring Damon = back for LF because he is very productive, has good speed, and will come relatively cheap and on a short-term deal.

        • Mouch "Half Man Half Couch" says:

          From the looks of that list, Holliday should be the first choice.

          • Sweet Dick Willie says:

            I know Yankees fans are unaccustomed to budgets, but at some point, the $$$ and the length of the contract must be considered.

            And someone who says his two top choices are the Yanks and Mets is obviously in it for the money. Now there’s nothing necessarily wrong with that, but it raise a question about his priorities.

            I mean, someone willing to take a big contract from the Mets, who are going nowhere in the near term, as opposed to a lesser contract from a team that will compete (the Cardinals, for example), is someone the FO should be wary of, IMO.

            • ClayBuchholzLovesLaptops says:

              I agree with that, he will probably go to the highest bidder. And I don’t think that will be the Yankees. Someone will overpay for him and have him for his decline years. My guess would be SF.

            • gxpanos says:

              “Now there’s nothing necessarily wrong with that…

              …except he’s a money hungry bum who doesnt care about winning that the FO should not sign.”

              I dont diasgree with you that Cashman should be wary of him, but when you say there isnt anything wrong with being in it for the money, and then proceed to bash him for it, it says to me that you shouldnt have said there isnt necessarily anything wrong with being in it for the money.

              Again, I actually agree with you. If I were Holliday, I’d try my damndest to go back to the Cards, which is probably where he contributes most and would be most valued. And as a Yankee fann, I dont see him as a necessity.

              • Sweet Dick Willie says:

                I personally would question someone’s motives who would rather get top dollar from a non-competitive team than a little less from a contender.

                Saying the Yanks are your #1 choice is understandable – you get top dollar AND you get to play on a contender.

                Saying the Mets are your #2 choice – well, that’s where I have a problem. Yeah, they could probably offer a little more than the Cardinals, and maybe the Sux, but where are they going?

                Getting top dollar from a contender I can understand. Signing with a shitty team just to maximize your salary is what I can’t understand.

                So either I didn’t make myself clear in my original post or you misunderstood me.

            • This doesn’t really make any sense to me. Even if we assume he wants $15m per, it seems to me that letting go of Damon/Matsui and the reduction in salary whichever one comes back is inevitably going to eat ought to more than make up for $15 million to Holliday.

        • JM says:

          You’re right about the fielding, however. There doesn’t seem to be any in between guys that are not extremely expensive but are not bench players. Maybe Marlon Byrd?

          • JM says:

            I mean, is Holliday the best there? Yes. The whole problem is that the Yankees just signed long-term and expensive deals this winter and you don’t want another contract stuck to you like that. Also, after considering the 50 million off the books, maybe it would make sense to get Holliday, if that 5 year deal was the one. Nothing more than 5/100.

  2. I like Holliday a lot, but if he wants more than 3 years–which he obviously does–I’d pass.

  3. cor shep says:

    Ben, is there a chat today?

  4. ClayBuchholzLovesLaptops says:

    Depending on his elbow, what about Xavier Nady? Bring back Hinske and Matsui so you can mix and match with Swisher, Matsui, Nady, Hinske, Gardner and Cabrera in the OF and DH spots.

    My guess so would be that our next LF comes via trade. I have no idea who we would get, but my confidence level in Cashman = 10.

    • cor shep says:

      he won’t be ready for the start off the season. Also, it’s pretty hard to recover from 2 tommy johns

      • ClayBuchholzLovesLaptops says:

        I haven’t heard anything about when Nady is coming back. If it’s in May, you could get without him for a month. Or get somebody else for his place in my scenario.

  5. JM says:

    I can’t believe Davidoff predicted the Twins to win in 4.

  6. Kiersten says:

    Maybe he’ll take a smaller contract if he really does want to play for the Yankees.

    • cor shep says:

      As much as a I would love that… no chance in hell ha. I know he grew up a yankee fan, but almost 100% of FA’s say they wanna be a Yankee cuz they shell out the most dough

    • RichYF says:

      Beltran discount? That’s the first thing that crossed my mind. Holliday != Beltran by any stretch, but if he’ll take a discount to play for the Yanks ($15 mil per?), I imagine Cash would go for it.

      It’ll be interesting to see what he really demands. He’s not getting $25 million per year. $20 might be a stretch in this economy. Being a Boras client, I’m not sure if he’ll take a discount. Then again, Beltran was willing.

  7. wanger says:

    speaking of fielding, did anyone catch johnny’s catch last night? how about the ball that hit holliday in his 20 million dollar ball sack?

    • Brilliant. Let’s make all of our baseball personnel decisions on the basis of one play per player. Jeter made an error last night too. He must be awful.

    • pat says:

      That was only a nice catch because Johnny took two steps backwards when the ball was hit. That’s routine if he reads it right.

    • Larryf says:

      JD is a terrible outfielder-especially going back on balls against the wall. That said-I would still opt to bring back the current cast and play Gardner/Melky more in LF to rest Johnny. Don’t see how we could inprove our offensive stats much and I love the Yankee Stadium swings of Damon /Matsui.

  8. Dela G says:

    i’d rather have AJAX before i’d ever want holliday. He’s another 31 year old player who the yankees do not need at the moment. I could live with johnny damon for ONE more year if it means keeping the chemistry together and not breaking it up like theo did the red sox.

    By the way, paying holliday anything more than 15 million a year is idiotic. He is more of a “blend in” player than a superstar in my opinion, which isn’t what 20 million a year is for.


  9. Tripp says:

    Where does the 50 million come from?

    I got 26 for Damon and Matsui and then another 11 for Pettitte? that makes 37…who am I missing? 2 for molina? 2 for Jerry?

    • The Three Amigos says:

      Nady 6, Wang 5. But, CC gets a 10 mil raise Robbie 3 swisher 2… So in reality, Pettite equals himself, save 5-8 mil on one of damon and matsui and your looking at 10-15 mil to to a flier on Justin Duescher (Spelling) and a LF. If not Damon I see them bringing in someone from a trade (solid defense, solid bat) but nothing spectacular.

      We have our core bats, we need to supplement with a solid player.

  10. e mills says:

    if Manny opts out, I would go with him

  11. Will says:

    I think the best option is Damon and Mike Cameron for around $10m/1 year and $8m/1 year.

  12. The Three Amigos says:

    Ps. Anyone see in the artcile where clueless Madden says the Red Sox would like to get Lars Anderson in the mix moving Youk to third. He failed to mention Andersons stats in AA this year…

    • Tom Zig says:

      I hope they move Youk to third, it will only weaken their defense.

      • gxpanos says:

        A little debatable, since Lowell can’t move. I know Youk is way better at 1st than 3rd, but it’s not as cut and dry as you make it out. None of us have seen Lars play 1st; his scouting reports, I believe, have him as an average defensive 1b with mediocre range.

  13. Aj says:

    Ben what if the yankes sign damon and they have ajax and then wait until next and go hard after Crawford and a pitcher save the $50mil for next years FA class

  14. Brooklyn Ed says:

    Mark DeRosa? just saying. he could fill in the #2 hole if Damon doesn’t come back.

  15. Pasqua says:

    Shocking that a player would announce his interest in the two clubs that would likely pay him the most amount of money. I’m sure that’s not a negotiating ploy at all.

    I know a writer’s gotta write, but when will we stop falling for this?

  16. Ivan says:

    Well RF is set.

    CF is pretty much Cabrera and Gardner making the seat warm for A-Jax.

    LF: You need somebody with some punch no question.

    Holliday makes the most sense here, however, considering he’s gonna want abundants amount of money, way more than what he is worth, I would kinda pass.

    But there is little alternatives as well. Best alternative would to make a trade but that is gonna require giving up pieces.

    • Reggie C. says:

      Thank you.

      Concise. Simple. Accurate.

      People brush off how good a fit Matt Holliday could be with this team. this guy will replicate Damon’s offense for years to come. Why pass on years of All-star production for ONE friggin’ year of Damon. Lets not be sentimentalists to a fault guys.

      Wow … Gmen getting KILLED.

      • I’d love Matt Holliday, but not for more than 3 years. Locking in three corner guys for 5+ years doesn’t exactly scream “smart.”

        • Reggie C. says:

          “… not more than 3 years.”

          I wouldn’t go beyond 5 years at all , but i’d go beyond 3. Holliday’s bat should make up for defensive deficiencies he’d be facing at age 34, 35.

          Sorry , i’ve got to add that we’re banking too much on Jesus Montero right now.

          • What does this have to do with Jesus? I don’t see where it’s coming from. Anyway…

            I could be convinced to give Holliday a fourth or fifth year if the contract was front loaded.

      • whozat says:

        It’s not sentimentality, it’s a realization that

        a) Holliday isn’t as good as you think, but he’s still very good
        b) he’s the best in a shitty market, so he’ll be overpaid in dollars AND years
        c) paying for decline phases is what got the Yanks into their mid-2000 quagmire.

        There is no where for Holliday to degrade to on the Yanks, as 1B and DH will probably be occupied by some mix of Tex and ARod by 2014. Signing him for 5-7 years would be a bad decision. He’d have to stay in LF despite his degrading defense. This isn’t a CFer who’d degrade to LF…this is a guy who’s been athletic enough in his 20′s to make up for his sometimes botched reads and routes. What happens when he’s 33, 34, 35?

        • The Three Amigos says:

          I like this!

        • Reggie C. says:

          if a team wants to go beyond 5 years (my cap) , then fine … that team takes on a bigger commitment to Holliday’s decline years.

          Damon’s offensive surge is the blueprint for the next Yankee LF. Holliday should be able to replicate this kind of punch for a 5 year period.

          is he going to get overpaid in a 5 yr offer? Yeah. Is it worth it in lieu of the departures of Matsui and Damon and unknown future contributions of in-house candidates … i think so.

          I think things further clarify if Crawford really hits the market.

          • whozat says:

            Is Matt Holliday lefty? Has the stadium boosted homer output for a lot of righty batters? What are the odds that Holliday is still a plus defender in the 4th and 5th years of this deal?

            Basically, Carl Crawford is a better fit in LF than Holliday, and I think committing to Holliday until 2015 just to get the upgrade from JD to Holliday in 2010 is kinda shortsighted.

      • People brush off how good a fit Matt Holliday could be with this team.

        No, they don’t. They acknowledge how good a fit he could be but also acknowledge the mitigating factors of Holliday’s age, contract demands, and pedestrian numbers outside of Coors Field meaning that while he could be a good fit, there’s also assloads of risk involved, and there may be better options available a year or two down the road, so if we can delay the decision with a short-term stopgap like Johnny Damon, it may be for the best, all things considered.

        • ’08 Road OPS: .892
          ’07 Road OPS: .860
          ’06 Road OPS: .819

          He wasn’t as good as he was in Coors, but he wasn’t “pedestrian” outside of Coors for most of his career.

          He also OPS’d .877 in Oakland this year, which featured a one year park factor of 97, per B-R. With StL, a team with a park factor of 98 this season, he OPS’d over 1.000 at home. His H/R splits are overblown.

          • Touché. He’s not pedestrian away from Coors.

            He’s also not a 20M AAV player away from Coors. Not by a longshot.

            • OldYanksFan says:

              Teixeira is making $20m/yr and that was the highest offer. MLB had an off year in 2009. No way Holliday gets $20m.

              He will get 5 or 6 years, probably 5… which is fair. On average in MLB, a Road OPS is .050ish points lower then Home OPS, or .025 lower then Total OPS.

              Matt ACTY/BBD shows his Road OPS (2006-2008) to be .857 over the last 3 years, so he looks like an .880 OPS guy. That’s well better then JD or Matsui who are .850ish guys…. WHEN HEALTHY.

              If he wants to play on the Yankees, I offer 5/$75 and go as high as 5/$80.

        • whozat says:

          as I have aged, I have come to notice how much people need things to be black and white, and how valid explanations seem like nothing more than flimsy rationalizations to many. Even if it’s true that the answer to a question is complicated, as soon as you say that, people think you’re trying to sell them a bill of goods. You either want Matt Holliday on the Yanks, or you think he sucks and is a bad fit. You’re either for the war or you hate our troops. The economic crisis is either the fault of wall street fatcats, or you’re blaming the poor, innocent victims who bought a .75MM house on 50 grand a year.

      • Wow … Gmen getting KILLED.

        My last minute decision to bench Steve Smith and start Marques Colston: GENIUS.

  17. wanger says:

    obviously having decent arm in left field is a big priority. I bet johnny D. has nightmares on a regular basis where he finds that his arm is that of an infants. johnny’s arm definitely costs us runs.

  18. Hello says:

    I would resign Matsui AND Damon. Signing another 20 million dollar position player would not be smart. This team would have no flexibility for the next 4-5 years at least. If no Damon, Mike Cameron as someone else mentioned is actually not the worst idea. Plays good D and would provide some power at the bottom of the lineup.

    Save the money on HollIday this year and go after HallAday next year.

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      Why Halladay? They don’t need him.

      • Reggie C. says:

        i’d say that’s TBD , but I wont rashly say that we’re gonna need Halladay.

        Lets see how Joba further develops in 2010. I want to see improvement all around in 190 IP.

        • Evil Empire says:

          Let’s also see if King Felix wants to sign a long term extension with Seattle.

          I agree with re-signing Damon and Matsui, but we will need another solution for LF by 2011, which is why like I was saying in another post I’d like to see us trade for Carl Crawford … or sign him when he hits FA.

        • whozat says:

          And Hughes. I’m pretty confident that signing 34 year old Roy Halladay to fill the 3rd starter role is in one way stupid (you’d be paying for who he was, not who he will be) and in another way overkill (do you really need ROY HALLADAY to be your number three starter?)

          • Reggie C. says:

            Yeah. Hughes too.

            But i’m gonna brace myself for the inevitable organization maneuvering of starting Hughes intermittently when the IP count hits 100. Joba’s development as a reliable starter with occasional flashes of brilliance is soooo important and probably more interesting to watch.

            • whozat says:

              Why would they do that when Hughes has already thrown 146 innings in a season?

              • Reggie C. says:

                146 innings … 3 seasons ago. That’s not exactly recent. I’d work off more recent work load.

                • whozat says:

                  I’m sure they have a plan that doesn’t include limiting him to 150 innings next year. That may include sending him to winter ball to throw 30 extra innings next month or something.

      • Hello says:

        They don’t need him? Who do they need? They certainly do not NEED Holliday. Halladay is one of the best pitchers in baseball. Probably better than CC. If you are going to spend $100 million I think Halladay is a MUCH better investment even if you have to wait an extra year.

        Would you rather have a rotation with CC, Halladay, AJ or Holliday in LF.

        It is not about need. It is about forming the best team.

        • whozat says:

          Actually, paying 100MM for years 30-34 of a position player is almost certainly better than paying 100MM for years 34-38 of Roy Halladay.

          • Hello says:

            Why would you be paying for who Halladay was? The guy has no signs of a pitcher who will suddenly decline because he gets a few years older. He is not a power guy. He pitches to contact, mixes up his pitches, and has impeccable command.

            You honestly think this team would be better with Matt Holliday in LF than having Roy Halladay as your number 2, maybe even your number 1 starter?

            With CC, Halladay, and Burnett pitching in the playoffs and guys like AROD, Tex, and Jetes on the offensive side this team would be incredibly hard to beat in a 5 or 7 game series.

            Halladay provides much more value to THIS team. Other teams that do not have AROD and Tex. Probably not.

            • The guy has no signs of a pitcher who will suddenly decline because he gets a few years older.

              Halladay has already shown those signs of decline. Pass.

            • whozat says:

              All pitchers decline. Halladay will probably still be very good, but not ROY HALLADAY. But, to get him, you have to pay like he’s still ROY HALLADAY. You’re also failing to look at the duration of the contract…sure, I’d buy that he could still pitch really well at 34. But we’re talking about 100MM over 5 years. I don’t think that he’ll be ROY HALLADAY when he’s 37 or 38.

              Also, we’re not talking about adding him to the 2009 Yanks. We’re talking about the 2011 – 2015 yanks. That team has a hole at catcher, it has 1B locked up, and probably a lot of DH time for ARod, so there’s no cheap place to get more offense…it probably also has a really old SS. So, it seems to like maybe they will need some more offense, and the only thing that close in the pipeline is Jesus. On the other hand…they have a fair number of promising pitchers, starting with Joba and Hughes who will be solidly in their primes. Will they be ROY HALLADAY? Unlikely. Will one of them be better than 34-38 year old Roy Halladay at a fraction of the cost, leaving more money to get offensive pieces? Much more likely.

        • Evil Empire says:

          I think it depends on what Halladay’s asking price is. At age 34, something like 2/$32M with a 3rd year team option seems attractive, anything more and maybe you’re rolling the dice, even with a pitcher of his caliber.

    • whozat says:

      I was all aboard the Damon train until September. His late-season swoon worries me. The Yanks got excellent health out of their veteran core this year…asking Matsui and Damon to both stay healthy for another full year might be pushing it. If one of them or Posada or Jeter or ARod goes down, we’d be a bit exposed. One way to combat that would be to get a younger and healthier LFer. Another way would be to build some quality depth behind JD.

  19. Evil Empire says:

    If we could get Carl Crawford in a trade for just about anything short of Jesus Montero, I’d find that to be the ideal option. Sticking with TB outfielders, if we could get BJ Upton while his stock is down (though he’d still cost some high quality prospects), we could just do that and pursue re-signing Damon and play whoever produces the most out of those two plus Gardbrera, and possibly Austin Jackson in certain scenarios.

    • If we could get Carl Crawford in a trade for just about anything short of Jesus Montero, I’d find that to be the ideal option.

      I disagree. Trading future pieces for just one guaranteed year of Crawford really doesn’t seem worth it to me.

    • steve (different one) says:

      i realize that this doesn’t prove a thing, but aside from maybe a PTBNL type deal, the Yankees have NEVER traded with the Rays. like ever.

      i’d say the odds of Crawford being traded to the yankees are slim to none.

      the Rays are going to pick up his $10M option and keep him, that’s why they traded Kazmir (IMO).

  20. wanger says:

    healthy damon and matsui for 20 mil is way more valuable than holliday i would think

    • pete says:

      I have to say I would be really uncomfortable committing a long-term deal to a high-price player like holliday. I’d much rather explore my one-year options. Maybe cameron? Byrd? Ankiel? and look for solid defense than lose the financial flexibility that could allow us to pursue someone like Felix in the future.
      I know that there’s a chance that an outfield of AJax-Gardner-Swisher/AJax-Gardner-Cabrera/Cabrera-AJax-Swisher would be pretty unproductive offensively, but our infield is far and away the most offensively productive in the majors, and its defense is below average all around, except jeter, who still has a good chance of being below average next year. Any of the outfields listed above would be exeptional defensively, and while all would be below average offensively, I think the net impact of that kind of defense could make up for the below average offense.
      If the yanks invest most of their money in the future on pitching, then having exceptional outfield defense could go a long way.

  21. gxpanos says:

    I wish Holliday was a lefty. Then I’d be game for a 5-year deal. As it is, I would want Cashman to give him a take-it-or-leave-it offer of 3 yrs, 55 mil.

    If he says no, you re-sign Johnny for one year or 1+1 and go hard after Crawford for 2011. Crawford could pop 20 at YSIII.

  22. K.B.D says:

    Holliday’s 2009 value: 25.4M.

    20M a year isn’t too crazy, IMHO.

    • whozat says:

      On a one year deal, hell yeah. Two, hell yeah. Three…yes. Four…maybe, but can we pay more and keep it at three? Five…ehhhhhhhhh. Six…definitely not. Seven…*click*

      • K.B.D says:

        Obviously if you can overpay to cut the length of the contract you should. I’d be down for a four year deal. He’d only be 33 at the end of that contract. That’s not really far into his decline, if at all.

        • whozat says:

          As he is the top guy in the market, and there are several teams with money looking for offense (Giants, Red Sox, Yanks, Mets), there WILL be someone who’ll give him 5. They Giants might even go stupid and hand him 6 or 7. Sabean is an idiot. Don’t count him out.

  23. Cy Farnsworth says:

    I wouldn’t be thrilled to see the Yankees get locked into yet another longterm deal with Matt Holliday, but I could live with it.

    As long as they don’t sign Chone Figgins, which would be a huge disaster. That potential pickup right on the verge of the guy’s decline years screams “Tony Womack.”

  24. Andy in Sunny Daytona says:

    When the Yankees win it all, I say bring back everyone for one more dance. Then in 2011, youth will be served.

    • Handtius says:

      Agreed. Damon just needs some help out there. Maybe a little rotational deal with a bench player. Maybe give Harriston a start once or twice a week out here. Keeps JD fresh and gives Jerry some at-bats.

      • whozat says:

        Damon had plenty of rest this year, and he still ran down in September. They’ll need better than Hairston to give him rest. THe situation they had coming in to this season was ideal…if they can re-sign Damon and get a player comparable to Nady, that’d be fine with me. Then you always have one of Damon, Swisher, Nadyish, or Tex in the DH slot at minimum.

  25. [...] who wrote that Holliday will expect the bidding to start at $150 million over seven-years, but River Ave Blues puts out a more likely guess of $100 million over five-years. Both numbers seem insane for a player [...]

  26. Hello says:

    I know Jeter had a great rebound year at SS and while I had to admit it, there has to come a time when he can not play there anymore.

    Where do you move him if you have a LF locked up to a long term big money contract?

    • If this were a perfect world, there’d be a reliable SS hitting the market this year. Then, Jeter could move to LF, Damon could DH, the FA SS could be brought in, and Matsui would walk.

    • iYankees says:

      If Jeter can’t play SS anymore because of a decline in defense, why would you put in LF? This moving Jeter idea makes no sense, really. He’ll either play as a SS for the rest of his career or he’ll move to the DH spot. Sure, he won’t be a prototypical DH, but it’s the only place you can put him if you want to keep him around. It’s either that or retire.

      • Hello says:

        Because “ranging” (can not think of a better word) to and tracking fly balls all the way in the outfield is much easier than “ranging” to hard hit ground balls when your are right on top of the game in the infield.

        Also while this may not translate to the OF, Jeter has always been great at going back on fly balls from the infield.

        There is a reason pretty much every team’s worst defender plays either LF or 1B.

        • iYankees says:

          Is it really easier for an outfielder to chase a ball down in left-center than it is for them to range to their left or right in the infield? I don’t know the answer to this and am assuming the former is harder.
          How do you know that one is actually easier than the other? Is there any proof to that statement? And, the idea that you can move Jeter to the OF, when’s he’ll be 40 (or close to it), based on how he pop-ups in the infield (or fly balls on the edge of the grass) seems like a reach.

          Also, I would argue that most of the worst outfielders in baseball are in RF (Dye, Hawpe, Abreu, Ethier, Cuddyer), where there is often less ground to cover.

          • iYankees says:

            Is it really easier for a fielder to chase a ball down in left-center than it is for them to range to their left or right in the infield? I don’t know the answer to this but am assuming the former can be harder (or as hard).

            You’ve said that it’s easier for the infielder’s job is harder. How do you know that one is actually easier than the other? Is there any proof to that statement? And, the idea that you can move Jeter to the OF, when he’ll be 40 (or close to it), based on how he handles pop-ups in the infield (or fly balls on the edge of the grass) seems like a reach.

            Also, I would argue that most of the worst outfielders in baseball are in RF (Dye, Hawpe, Abreu, Ethier, Cuddyer), where there is often less ground to cover.

            ***There we go. Amended so it’s in actual English this time around, ha.

            • Hello says:

              Your first step is the most difficult to generate power and speed. After that it gradually gets easier to generate power and speed. Athletes with great first steps are often the fastest and in terms of baseball the guys who cover the most ground because they get to their top speed the quickest.

              In the infield you are taking much less steps to the ball, thus making it much harder to reach your true top speed. In the outfield you have much more time to make up for a slower first step and track down the ball.

              I have worked with speed coaches myself and pretty much 90% of the time is spent working on your first step.

              Also, I do not think any OF has every transitioned to SS, but many SS and 2B have transitioned to the OF. SS is probably the most difficult position on the field outside of catcher.

  27. If the Yanks’ choice comes down to one between Holliday and Figgins, I pick Matt Holliday.

    I pick None of the Above.


  28. iYankees says:

    I honestly don’t think you can put a ton of stock into Damon being the player he was this year in 2010 (not when his power was largely a YS product). Plus, if his defense continues to decline (very likely given his age), his offensive skills won’t even matter.

    • I agree.

      I’m still more comfortable with a diminished Johnny Damon on a one year, small money deal than Matt Holliday on a longterm, big money deal.

      If Johnny sucks, we can add a new stopgap at the trade deadline and then get a better longterm option in 2011.

      • Evil Empire says:

        If Holliday were theoretically able to be signed on a 4/$72M deal, do you do it? I’m thinking I would. Then re-sign one of Damon or Matsui – whoever takes the 1 year deal – and the 2010 team is locked is and loaded.

        I honestly have no idea what the baseball economy is going to be like this winter. Maybe Holliday gets his 9 digit check but … maybe not. If the Red Sox resign Bay and the Yankees stay disciplined and don’t go past 4 years on Holliday, than things could get interesting.

        • 4/72? Yeah, sure. I can live with that.

          I don’t see it happening, though. The Cards, Mets, or any number of other teams can and will trump that in a heartbeat, even in a down economy.

          • Zack says:

            Those teams might trump it, but could Holliday possibly be like Beltran, or even Pavano who turned down more money, and WANT to be with the Yankees? Probably not

            • I’m sure he’d be willing to pick the Yankees over the Mets/Cards/Giants if we’re offering 4/72 and they’re offering 4/76 or 4/80.

              But when they offer 5/100, no, he’s gonna take the money, as he should.

              • Zack says:

                True, I still have questions if teams, especially the Mets, are in the position to spend like that.

              • Evil Empire says:

                The Cardinals giving Holliday a 5/$100 deal leaves them very susceptible with Pujols in the future, I’m not so sure they could offer that to him.

                The Mets … are The Mets. What’s the real story with their liquidity and is there any appeal about the team right now besides the fact that it happens to play in NYC?

                The Giants and Red Sox are my guess for his highest bidder and likeliest destinations. But I’ll wait and see on the Giants and if the Red Sox want to overpay for Holliday, god bless ‘em … though I wouldn’t be completely surprised if Theo remains stubborn and doesn’t offer him more than 4 years.

                I guess I see a possible perfect storm brewing where the Yankees offer Holiday not-quite top dollar but they’re the best option for him anyway. I could also see Cashman biting the bullet and giving him a fifth year, because we tend to do shit like that and shrug off the consequences later with other sources of talent.

              • Reggie C. says:

                I agree with EE in his assessment of the Cards keeping an eye on the budget for the eventual attempt to extend Pujols. Cards are gonna lose Holliday but nab a couple high draft picks.

                I think the Giants are gonna land some offensive help, and they’ll likely be the team to out-bid the Yanks & RS in years offered , if slightly lesser money.

                • Evil Empire says:

                  Can we agree that if the Red Sox refuse to go further than 4 years on Holliday, the Yankees should offer what they are + $3M?

                  Surely overpaying for the rest of Holliday’s prime years is worth it when screwing over the Red Sox is involved.

                  I do agree, though, that Giants seem to be his likeliest destination unless they snag Jason Bay, which would be awesome.

                • Reggie C. says:

                  It depends.

                  If Theo is offering 4 yrs but 80 mm, I think Cash doesnt and shouldn’t top that total salary figure.

                  Cashman may add a 5th yr at lesser money ($18 mm). It would grind me , but looking at the holes this ballclub could have in future seasons at several positions , signing Holliday makes sense.

                • I don’t see Cashman going to 5 years with Holliday. Just a hunch.

          • Reggie C. says:

            I brought up that total salary /years offer as a starting point. I’ totally agree that the Cards, Mets, RS, and Giants would be in play if the Yanks weren’t willing to go further.

            I’d inch up AAS to $18.5 mm over an added 5th year.

            Considering the uncertainty of production coming out of CF, SS, Catcher, and Dh in the coming years, locking down a potential All-Star bat would be big.

  29. TLVP says:

    I don’t know how much money there is – the economy is still not good, ticket sales have been disappointing and they have an extremely expensive new stadium. I think they’d rather save money to shore up the house – especially if they win this year and get that monkey off their back

    For that reason i could see them resign both Matsui and Damon – they’ll be cheap and they’ll probably accept 1-year deals so there will be flexibility

    As for the outfield -yes Swisher/Gardner/Cabrera/Damon isn’t a great outfield but its not bad either and our infield is possibly the best in baseball history history – 134 HR in total, .406, 402, .383, .363 and .352 OBP and whilst Jeter and Posada will regress A-rod should be better

    Holliday would be nice if the wallet was bottomless but i doubt it actually is

    • scooter says:

      The other part of the wallet equation – potentially signing Chapman and/or Kikuchi. Chapman might get something in excess of the Contreras contract (4/32). No idea what Kikuchi would get (more than Tazawa I guess)

      Re-signing Damon AND Matsui has serious risks associated – do you then sign Nady as insurance?

      Of course if the Yankees need a serious bat in August 2010, it might be Montero and AJax time.

      • steve (different one) says:

        i think i’d rather spend $100M on Holliday than $50M on 2 complete ??? in Chapman and Kikuchi

        • Something to keep in mind:

          1) Even if we gave Chapman and Kikuchi matching 3 yr, 25M deals, at the conclusion of those deals we’d still have their contractual rights because they would be at least three years away from free agency, so you’re getting them both for the next 6 years instead of just Holliday alone for the next 3-5 years
          2) Kikuchi and Chapman will be cheaper and younger for longer, and will enter their primes later when we need more young talent as this current wave disappears

  30. Jeremy says:

    Holliday would be a great addition but I can’t see even the Yankees adding another $20 million player.

  31. Eh…I’m not really a Holliday fan, especially at the price he’s gonna come at.

    I wouldn’t mind Damon back on a short deal (or even Matsui for that matter).

    Looks like the Rays are gonna keep Crawford, who’d be perfect in pinstripes.

    Holliday/Bay are the cream of the crop in the ’10 FA class, with not much else available. (Figgins and DeRosa are lesser options)

  32. Mike Nitabach says:

    What free agent *wouldn’t* include the Yankees among his top choices, considering that they can and will pay more than any other team?

  33. Joba Rules says:

    No major pitching holes to fill? I’m not so sure, if Pettitte leaves IMO that would be a HUGE hole to fill. That being said, while it is way too early, sign Holliday to play LF and bring back Damon to DH.

  34. One thing is for certain, though: Whatever decision Cashman ultimately makes regarding pursuing Holliday or not, it’ll be the wrong one. He’s a cabbage in heels.

    Matt Taibbi

  35. Zack says:

    I wouldnt mind Holliday on a deal close to 4yr/70m, but is it going to be another bidding war with the Sox?

    Ideally this offseason Holliday stays with Cardinals, Bay signs elsewhere, Yankees re-up Damon and Matsui.

    • scooter says:

      Come to think of it, there’s some interesting game theory here.

      If you’re Cashman, and Holliday wants to come to NY, do you sign him simply to mess with the Red Sox? If St Louis signs Bay, the Sox are out in the cold, and need to trade for a bat

      If you’re Theo Epstein, do you lock up Bay or Holliday quickly, and drive the price up on remaining guy? (And is John Henry in a financial position to spend this offseason?)

      • Evil Empire says:

        Y’know even though there are certain scenarios where I would like to see Matt Holliday playing for the Yankees, seeing Boston pay well above his value is almost equally appealing. If they stretch out and go, say, 5/$100 (even more is a possbility)… well, that’s money they can’t spend on future, equal or better players, and he wouldn’t even completely fix them in 2010 since he’d just be supplanting one of their more productive offensive players from ’09 in Bay.

      • Zack says:

        I dont see how Theo could luck up Holliday quickly, Boras will immediately call Cashman, and so on. Same with Bay, if he was going to stay he would have signed in ST or any point this year.

      • (And is John Henry in a financial position to spend this offseason?)

        Hold on, lemme Twitter him.

  36. misterd says:

    We don’t need anyone at that price. The team is fine, thanks. We have enough to start off next year, and no glaring weakness. I’d rather wait and see how the 2010 season unfolds and make some trades to fill needs as they arise.

    If we’re going to make any moves, I’d like to try trading some of our pitching and catching prospects for some OF prospects.

  37. BC says:

    I agree this would be a good signing if it was less years. I don’t think they should bring back Damon, if they bring him back, 1 year max. No chance they should bring back Matsui. They could always throw out 1 year offers to guys like Vlad Guerrero (obviously on the decline, could man LF/DH for one year for the Yankees.), Mike Cameron, or put in 3 year offers on Bay/Holliday.
    I’d like to see them add a starter. I think they should definitely offer on Jon Garland, Tim Hudson, and/or Ben Sheets for one/two year deals. Get one of those guys, and Pettitte to return and our rotation next year will have depth and quality throughout. I would love to see Joba back in the pen and Hughes as the #5. I can’t wait too see the competition in the spring.

  38. Moose Man 12 says:

    F That, forget Holliday, we need one more pitching stud. Pettitte is lookin great but he’s pushing 50. No one in the world, expect hardcore BJobbers on this site think Joba should remain a starter – so that leaves CC, AJ, Pettitte (maybe), and a bunch of ? marks for next year.

    Do we really have faith that Wang will come back and be effective??? IPK???

    If the Yanks do what their supposed to do – keep Joba and Hughes in the Pen and have the best bullpen in MLB, by far – their gonna need another good starter to plug in there.

    Pitching wins, pitching wins. Forget Holliday, he’s overpaid and overhyped.

    • No one in the world, expect hardcore BJobbers on this site think Joba should remain a starter


      • Also, F.U. for using “BJobbers” totally backwards. BJobbers don’t think Joba should remain a starter, they think he should go to the pen.

        You fail consistently and thoroughly.

        • Also, where is there a “pitching stud” in this year’s FA market? John Lackey?

          • ROBTEN says:

            1. If Crawford hits free agency, what kind of contract can we expect? Does he get more than 7/126? Does he get 7/140+?

            2. If the weak outfield free agent market in 2010 and 2011 means looking at possible trades, what (realistic) options might be worth pursuing? While most GMs won’t be dumb enough to expect a redux of the Swisher trade, do others see any low risk/potential high reward options?

            • Evil Empire says:

              Sheesh I hope not. I was thinking something like 5/$75M at the very most. I mean he’s a fine player and I expect him to age well, but he’s yet to have an OPS better than .830 in a single season and has a .772 OPS for his career. That’s not worthy of a monster contract … he’d be a good complimentary player in the Yankee lineup.

            • Reggie C. says:

              Its definitely gonna be waaaaay less in terms of money. Depressed baseball revenues dude. The hitters with $100 mm contracts are classic power hitters or DJ.

              7 years? Again, nope. Crawford would likely field 5 year offers since he’s a former CF, and the athleticism is still there.

    • Zack says:

      Yankees doing what they’re supposed to do equals filling 120IP in the bullpen and opening up 300IP in the rotation.

    • Zack says:

      And you say they need one more pitching stud, except none are FA. So that means trading one of your Joba/Hughes plus more for one. But how could you trade a member of the best bullpen in MLB?!?!?!1

    • “If the Yanks do what their supposed to do – keep Joba and Hughes in the Pen and have the best bullpen in MLB, by far which is to never, ever, ever listen to Moose Man 12 – their gonna need another good starter to plug in there win another title in 2010 to pair up with the title in 2009.”


    • In your scenario, who fills out the rotation?

  39. Man, Mark Sanchez is trying to get Leon Washington killed with a throw like that.

  40. Tony says:

    Why the opposition to Figgins? He’s not going to get a monster $ deal, he’s Type-B, and he gives you the kind of flexibility needed to run with the long-discussed “rotate the olds through the DH spot” plan. For some reason people tend to assume speed/contact guys break down quicker than power guys, when the opposite is actually true (at least post-Balco). Worst case scenario you end up with a high-caliber utility guy. Best case he’s primarily LF and rotating through the IF to spell ARod and Jeter.

    You bat him 2nd, support with a filler corner OF that has some pop, and wait for Crawford/AJax longterm.

    • Zack says:

      Why the opposition? Because he’s played 36 career games in LF

    • A) He’s not going to get a monster deal, but he will get at least a 3 year deal with at least a 10M AAV. That’s not “monster”, but it’s probably too much for his actual production value for his age 32-33-34 seasons.
      B) He’s not really positionally flexible, because he’s just a third baseman. He doesn’t play the outfield anymore. The “rotate people throught the DH spot” idea requires an actual quality bat who can play corner OF and corner IF spots. That’s not 2010-2012 Chone Figgins. It might have been 2004-2006 Chone Figgins, but those days are over.
      C) The guy has a 98 career OPS+. His career high single season OPS+ is 117, and that was sandwiched between an 85+ and an 82+. He’s wicked overrated. Pass.

      • Ivan says:

        If Figgins were white, he would be so overrated it would be hard to phantom.

        • If Figgins were white, he’d be Mark DeRosa.


          • Enough with the ‘DeRosa = Erstad/Eckstein’ jokes. Nobody thinks DeRosa is any sort of amazing answer for the Yankees, he’s not an impact player. But, what he is, is a relatively cheap, defensively versatile, league average bat, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that package as a utility guy. Enough with the preemptive ‘people like DeRosa because he’s a white guy’ jokes… What say we let someone actually overrate him before we start bashing people for overrating him.

            (Forgive the hit and run style of this comment… I’m totally not involved in this conversation/thread, but there have been a couple of unfair shots taken at DeRosa and I figured I’d speak up briefly.)

            • I wasn’t taking a shot at DeRosa, I was actually being serious. DeRosa and Figgins are shockingly similar, offensively. Obviously, I’d take DeRosa over Figgins because he actually DOES play multiple positions (and he’s cheaper, since he’s older).

              But, overall, they’re equivalent. Chone’s a tick better with the bat, DeRosa is better in the field. You worry more about decline with DeRosa, but he’s the better buy, no question about it.

  41. Also, am I the only person out there who thinks the idea that Holliday could command $20m per is pretty ridiculous.

  42. The Artist says:

    I’m in the camp that would prefer to pass. Sign Damon or Matsui to a 1 year deal and see who’s available in 2011.

    But there’s just one problem with that. The 2011 FA list.

    Left fielders
    Eric Byrnes (35)
    David DeJesus (31) – $6MM club option with a $500K buyout
    Adam Dunn (31)
    Willie Harris (33)
    Jason Kubel (29) – $5.25MM club option with a $350K buyout
    Marcus Thames (34)


    Do I love Matt Holiday? No, a long term contract for him screams Giambi part 2 to me, though in a less important position in the field. If you think a few years down the road, we’ll have A-Rod, Jeter and possibly still Posada taking AB’s at DH so Holliday makes even less sense as you go forward.

    Can we afford to wait for A-Jax? No, that train may never arrive.

    Could Melky be our everyday LF with Gardner in CF? Yes, but that’s a weak OF offensively. Our infield production makes up for it, but you’d like to do better.

    Considering everything, my first choice would be to call Stu Sternberg and see how he feels about trading Crawford within the division. I also kick the tires on Jeter moving positions.

    • Mike Pop says:

      If you think a few years down the road, we’ll have A-Rod, Jeter and possibly still Posada taking AB’s at DH so Holliday makes even less sense as you go forward.

      I agree with your point on a long term deal is no good for the Yankees right now. Not because of players taking hacks at the DH spot but more so is that the Yankees already have A-Rod, Tex, and CC under contract for so long.

      • The Artist says:

        Yeah, I don’t mean to overemphasize the DH spot, but I’m just trying to avoid the trap the Yanks just dug themselves out of recently, of having a team full of DHs all signed to long term deals and no flexibility to make moves you need to make. The 04-08 teams fit that description in too many areas.

    • Considering everything, my first choice would be to call Stu Sternberg and see how he feels about trading Crawford within the division.

      I find it ironic that you looked at the winter of 2010-2011 class of outfield free agents, found it lacking, and thus endorsed trading for Carl Crawford, overlooking the fact that Carl Crawford is actually a free agent in the very class you described.

      Epic FAIL.

    • Evil Empire says:

      I’m with you on trying to get Crawford for the 2010 season if we can get him at a reasonable talent cost, but keep in mind he is an unrestricted FA in 2011. We could get by in 2010 I think if are able to keep both Damon and Matsui on 1-year deals even in the face of likely regressions from each, and hope Melky Cabrera (or Gardner or even AJax) and Robinson Cano step up one more level each to compensate.

      I also figure that a full year of A-Rod at 100% will more than make up for what is likely a non-MVP-but-still-career-average-season for Jeter.

      • I think expecting anything out of Austin Jackson in 2010 is not wise.

        • Evil Empire says:

          I am prone to agreeing with you, but you have to at least consider him a dark-horse possibility for the second half of the season, right? I fully anticipate Melky and Gardner getting 100% of the playing time in the centerfield in 2010, but shit happens.

        • Reggie C. says:

          frankly , all I want from Ajax is further development of the POWER tool. He was lucky alot of last season and built up a nice BA , so he’s probably not a .300 hitter — but that’s not a major issue. The defense is already there , and he does steal bases. He’ll never draw many walks (isn’t OBP a category that doesnt markedly improve at this stage??) , but i’d love to see him bang out more doubles.

          • Yeah, I could get on board with this. I’d still like to see him bump that walk rate back up to 9-10% like it was in ’08.

            What we’ve seen from Jackson is a solid average on a very high BABIP. It would seem, then, that Jackson either gets lucky, hits the ball real hard, or some combination of both.

  43. Tucker says:

    I think the Yankees should hold off on Holliday in hopes to sign a bigger free agent next offseason (ex. Joe Mauer). They should just try to resign Damon to a one year deal.

  44. The Artist says:

    Since I brought up the 2011 FA list, let me throw another twist out there. Here’s the 2011 FA of Shortstops:

    Eric Bruntlett (33)
    Cristian Guzman (33)
    Cesar Izturis (31)
    Maicer Izturis (30)
    Derek Jeter (37)
    Julio Lugo (35)
    Jhonny Peralta (29) – $7MM club option with a $250K buyout
    Nick Punto (33) – $5MM club option with a $500K buyout
    Edgar Renteria (35) – $10.5MM club option with a $500K buyout
    Jose Reyes (28) – $11MM club option with a $500K buyout
    Jimmy Rollins (32) – $8.5MM club option with a $2MM buyout
    Ramon Santiago (31)
    Ramon Vazquez (34)

    Rollins or Peralta are interesting options. Maybe we shift Derek to LF and sign a replacement? It’s something to consider, Jetes won’t play SS forever.

  45. mustang says:

    ” this year and no major pitching holes to fill.”


    CC and AJ- Ok
    Andy- one year older and not sign.
    Hughes- who has been in the bullpen all year and will be on a pitch count.
    Joba -coming off a so-so season at best.
    Wang- not sign (more then likely) and recovery from surgery.

    Nope no hole there.

    • Hughes and Joba are question marks, but they’re both still supremely talented young pitchers. They’ll be fine.

      You also left out IPK, Gaudin, Mitre, Nova, McAllister. And listing Andy as a “not sign(ed)” is academic; the only way he’s not back for another year is if he retires (unlikely) or we sign someone better (thus, not making his spot a “hole”).

      • mustang says:

        Come on your going into next year with CC, AJ, Andy ( one year older when most of you didn’t want to sign him this year because of age) and question marks on the back two.

        Didn’t they try that in 2008 how did that work out?

        I think they learn from that.

        • Evil Empire says:

          …seems to be working out pretty well in 2009, no?

          • mustang says:

            Hughes in the PEN yes, but we are talking as a starter.

            Joba as a starter so-so.

            IPK- out all year.

            • Evil Empire says:

              We still knocked out 103 wins in the season with so-so Joba in the 4th spot and basically giving away 6 games starting Wang … not to mention our fair share of Bad AJ games.

              I’d expect progress from Joba and Hughes as our de facto #4 and #5 starters, and more strong efforts from the bullpen to pick up the slack as need be. We have the organizational depth to juggle around opportunities when necessary. So long as Pettitte comes back, I think our top 3 will keep us steady and the back of the rotation will organically work itself out with little or no help from free agency or trades.

              • mustang says:

                Your welcome to your opinion for me I get another starter I rather have too much starting pitching then to be looking at the Jarrod Washburns of the world come July 2010.

                • Evil Empire says:

                  So assuming we bring Pettitte back, who would you want to sign and commit a rotation spot to? Do you want only 1 of Joba and Hughes pitching as a starter at the beginning of the season?

                  I’m all with you about the depth, totally agree. That’s why we have Aceves, Kennedy, Mitre, Gaudin, Z-Mac, Nova and hopefully Wang for the 2nd half of the season. Plus we can always make a trade if we’re looking at a grim scenario where nothing works out for us.

                • mustang says:

                  Every year someone goes down believe me Joba and Hughes will get their chance to be starters.

                  I see your point.

        • Didn’t they try that in 2008 how did that work out?

          All the kids were two years younger and two years less experienced.

          That’s like a gap the size of the Grand Canyon.

          2010: Not 2008

          • mustang says:

            “All the kids were two years younger and two years less experienced.”

            IPK- he made it to MLB this year I must of missed that.

            Hughes- all in the pen.

            Joba- I will give you him (so-so at best)

            The experience is just overwhelming.

            • Service time at the MLB level is not the only type of experience, you know.

              • mustang says:

                Come on tommie that was weak.

                Your Analytical you should no better.

                • No, Mustang, the analytical you should know that coming back from his injuries and struggles to pitch well in the minors at the start of the year, then coming back again early to make it back onto the ML roster in September does show great growth and tenacity.

                  Ian Patrick Kennedy is a better pitcher and has gained valuable experience during this 2009 year, even though he didn’t get back to the majors.

                • mustang says:

                  Although all those things do show great character and perseverance we have yet to see how they will affect IPK major league pitcher on the MLB level. Until then all we have is his past performances and potential. I rather see that play out next year a little more on the AAA level and use him more as a insurance policy i.e. like Hughes at the beginning of this season.

                • I rather see that play out next year a little more on the AAA level and use him more as a insurance policy i.e. like Hughes at the beginning of this season.

                  That is exactly how Kennedy would be used. The reason we have no major pitching holes to fill (which is where this whole discussion began) is because we have a quality 1-5 in CC-AJ-Joba-Hughes-Pettitte + Kennedy and Gaudin in the Hughes and Aceves roles from last spring (i.e. 6th and 7th starters who can begin in Scranton and be called on to plug short-term holes in the rotation or bullpen).

        • 2010 Hughes + Chamberlain >>> 2008 Hughes + Kennedy

          • 2010 Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2008 Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy

            24 year old pitching prospects >>>>>>>>>> 22 year old pitching prospects

            • Evil Empire says:

              You guys think Aceves is asked to come into spring training prepared as a starter? I’d like to think so. That man deserves a legitimate opportunity to start. I think I like Aceves more than Kennedy.

              • I think I like Aceves more than Kennedy.

                I like Aceves NOW more than Kennedy, but Kennedy still has better upside. I’m fine leaving Ace in the pen permanently and giving Kennedy the inside track for the 6th starter spot over him.

                • Evil Empire says:

                  Aceves gets bonus points for being a mule in the bullpen – he’s got the physical flexibility to be used whenever you need him in whatever way you need to use him.

                  Still, if you like Aceves more than Kennedy NOW, why would you rank an age 27 Aceves over an age 24 Kennedy 6 months from now when Aceves has shown you more overall success in the big leagues? Maybe Kennedy one day emerges as a legitimate middle or back of the rotation guy – maybe as early as next year – but I think The Mexican Gangster has earned his opportunity to at least be the 6th starter in front of IPK.

                • Still, if you like Aceves more than Kennedy NOW, why would you rank an age 27 Aceves over an age 24 Kennedy 6 months from now when Aceves has shown you more overall success in the big leagues?

                  Because Kennedy has better stuff than Aceves does, and better command. I love Ace, but Kennedy has shown the potential to do things Ace hasn’t.

                  It’s only potential at this point, sure, but that’s why I’d rank Ace as the better pitcher now and Kennedy as the better pitcher a year or two from now.

                • Evil Empire says:

                  I agree that Kennedy has more potential and better stuff … but its all about results and Aceves has provided results. He’s also in his prime and IPK is a year or two away. Come 2011 I could be singing a different tune and saying IPK is a no-brainer for the rotation, but as of right now (and coming into ST 2010), I say Ace over IPK for the 6th starter.

                  Let’s just say for argument’s sake that, Mo forbid, AJ goes down with an injury and he’s gone for 2 months. That means I would go for the more complicated maneuver of moving Ace into the rotation and calling up Kennedy, and having IPK shadow Aceves during his first few starts as he stretches out, as opposed to just plugging IPK into the rotation’s hole. That also gives IPK the opportunity to pitch out of the bullpen ala Joba and Hughes to get some more big league experience under his belt, and that doesn’t seem like such a bad thing.

                • I agree that Kennedy has more potential and better stuff … but its all about results and Aceves has provided results.


                  If we’re talking about potential and future projection, it’s NOT all about results. It’s about potential and projection.

                  You’re arguing against a position that I’m not taking.

                • Evil Empire says:

                  But its not like Aceves has bad peripherals or is in his decline phase. Does Aceves allowing 64 hits in 84 IP and a 69:16 K/BB ratio not count for anything? I know its a small sample size, but its more than what Kennedy was able to provide, especially with him coming off the aneurysm surgery.

                  I’ll be happy to change my mind when Kennedy starts demonstrating success in the major leagues, but until then, I’ll go with the better-known asset in this particular instance. If either Aceves fails as a starter or IPK demonstrates success in the major leagues, ill change my stance accordingly.

                • Evil Empire says:

                  *69 hits … heh.

            • Mike bk says:

              not to mention those 24 year old prospects have much more experience and even success at this level than going into last season.

        • mustang says:

          I think they need one more starter then they can play with Hughes, Joba, and whoever in the 5th spot.
          Remember AJ doesn’t exactly have a injury free career and at Andy’s age the bubble can blow at any minute.

        • Joe D. says:

          Come on your going into next year with CC, AJ, Andy ( one year older when most of you didn’t want to sign him this year because of age) and question marks on the back two.

          Didn’t they try that in 2008 how did that work out?

          Pretty well, actually.

          They won 89 games despite:
          * miserable production from Cano and Melky,
          * an off-year from Jeter,
          * a combined 400 plate appearances at catcher from Jose Molina and Jose-Molina-Dressed-As-Pudge-Rodriguez,
          * inexplicably gifting Sir Sidney Ponson with 15 starts while Alfredo Aceves was tearing up the minors.
          * Being predictably screwed for having Joba kick off the year as a RP until June. Joba finished the season with a 2.76 ERA in 65 innings as a starter with a 3:1 K/BB ratio and over a K per inning.

          If anything, the worst part of the plan was *not* going with the young Joba from the get-go.

          • mustang says:

            You forgot that unbelievable playoff run … oh sorry I forgot that’s 2009. After they brought a Ace, a good starter, and a MVP first baseman while making Joba the 5th starter and Hughes a reliever/ back-up starter.

            I like the 2009 way better makes it more fun in October.

            • Joe D. says:

              Funny, because this year’s opening-day rotation was exactly what you are warning against: CC, AJ, Pettitte, and two question marks.

              I’m glad you like how it’s turned out.

              And a bit confused, then, that you are railing against a similar plan this time.

              • mustang says:

                CC, AJ, Pettitte, and Wang who at the time had won 19 two years in a row before 2008. And no one though Wang was going to have the problems he had
                So you get me CC, AJ, Pettitte, and a pitcher with a least 55 MLB wins in his first 5 years in MLB and have no problems with the plan.

    • Ivan says:

      CC and AJ are the 1 and 2

      Pettitte might leave yes, but I can certainly see Hughes or Chamberlain matching the season Pettitte had.

      Does the rotation have question marks going into 2010? Sure but not as much as most teams. You just hope that the Hughes learned to be aggressive when he was in the Pen, and Joba gaining more experience period for 2010 to potentially breakout.

      Speaking of which, which pitcher is most likely to Breakout in 2010? Hughes or Joba? Alot of teams don’t have that type of depth.

    • Ivan says:

      CC and AJ are the 1 and 2

      Pettitte might leave yes, but I can certainly see Hughes or Chamberlain matching the season Pettitte had.

      Does the rotation have question marks going into 2010? Sure but not as much as most teams. You just hope that the Hughes learned to be aggressive when he was in the Pen, and Joba gaining more experience period for 2010 to potentially breakout.

      Speaking of which, which pitcher is most likely to Breakout in 2010? Hughes or Joba? Alot of teams don’t have that type of depth.

    • Januz says:

      I have no interest in either Holliday or Bay (They are not star players who will make a major difference). The only free agent from another team I would consider signing would be Lackey. I would prefer letting Damon and Matsui both go (Keeping the DH open for Posada and others for rest), going with Austin Jackson, and if necessary trading for an outfielder in July.

  46. Evil Empire says:

    I suddenly like Thomas Jones a lot more than I did 10 minutes ago.

  47. Mike bk says:

    and why wouldnt holliday just claim he wants to come to NY because in this city you have two of the highest payroll teams and if you get either or both involved he raises his price to everyone else.

    marlon byrd as an alternative? also realize holliday costs us a first as well as the money, which i know doesnt bother most of you, but with the questions about holliday and depending on money and length it is another part of the equation.

    • I like Byrd, too, depending on price. I’m not overpaying for him. I have a feeling someone will give him more in years or money than we’d be willing to.

      • Mike bk says:

        that is probably true, but who knows with the economy…i would give him the 2 yrs maybe 12-14 mil. byrd also would have better UZR totals if they didnt make him play so much CF. playing the corners he can be a very good fielder.

        you think he will get more than 7 mil a year? maybe with the dearth of a market.

      • Evil Empire says:

        Byrd *could* be a viable option but I agree with you, someone will overpay for him. Getting him for 2 years to plug up left field and expecting a .800 OPS seems like a good enough short-term solution, but I have to think someone at least goes 3 years with the guy.

  48. Aaron Boone says:

    I agree we should bring back JD and Matsui on one year deals if possible. Holliday is good but we there is no doubt the team will have to overpay.

    And if for no other reason, than how about not having to hear “Chicken Fried” played through the sound system at Yankee Stadium when he comes to bat.

  49. Mike bk says:

    if holliday does go to the mets it could make it more likely we have that crazy topic of earlier in the week with the mets maybe looking to dump beltran. i would certainly take him as an upgrade over damon, but obviously more salary and would depend on what it would take to get him unless it is just a salary dump. 2 yrs at big money for beltran is a better idea than 5+ for holliday.

    • Reggie C. says:

      + 1. We should definitely revisit that thread if that comes to pass.

      Or maybe Minaya is crazy enough to think his rotation could compete with the Phils and Dodgers as is.

      • Mike bk says:

        well i could see them going after Holliday, Lackey both which would be a reason Beltran would be available with them going with Pagan in CF…trying to mimic what we did this offseason, though with worse players because they are the Mets. They would probably look at LaRoche or Nick Johnson to play 1b as well.

        • Reggie C. says:

          If its holliday & lackey , it makes little sense for the Mets to trade their best player unless its worth it. in terms of Yankee talent it’d take … i say Joba + A-Jax + Z-Mac.

          The salary relief reason doesn’t fly … the Mets are taking on so much salary, and Beltran is signed to a reasonable contract.

          HOWEVER, if the Cou-pons are really in financial trouble and want to blow it up … maybe we can trade Jackson + enough of the B level prospects to get it done.

          • Mike bk says:

            i wouldnt call 19 mil a year for 2 years reasonable, but maybe you live in a different economic world. also if it basically ends up where the edict is dont raise the payroll then you have lackey and holliday basically take over for delgado and beltran’s deals. as the mets right now in committments for next year are down 47 million, so you take off beltran you are at more like 65 so even if lackey and holliday got 35 combined they could still save 30 mil and cash coupons while claiming they are attempting to win.

  50. Reggie C. says:

    Buffalo Bills … wow. special teams FAIL.

    If Jets don’t win by 2 touchdowns, i’d be shocked.

  51. dch says:

    The options I see: 1) resign Matsui and Damon for 1 year
    2)resign one of them for 1 year(I would go with Damon because of his speed and his ability to play the field somewhat)and then bring up Jackson and work him into the lineup.

    I like Holliday but we don’t need him, lets keep getting younger, saving FA dollars for future pitching or some other need.

  52. lou says:

    we would be lucky to have a guy like Figgins. He offers a dynamic that we don’t have on this time as a guy who even in a bad year steals 40 bases.

    he has also taught himself in just a couple years to be a GG caliber 3B so i have little doubt that he could handle the OF, where he started his career with the Halos.

    Holliday was mediocre in the AL. I would def take a pass there.

    Those of you clamoring for Cameron, I wonder how much you have watched him play in these past few years. He is a solid defensive role player, but def not a signing I would be excited about

  53. [...] but that won’t stop the hot stove from warming up. After hearing that Matt Holliday’s top choice is the Yanks over the weekend, today we fhear rom a Yankee official – via Jon Heyman – that [...]

  54. [...] Holliday will be very tough this year, with a lot of needy buyers with fairly deep pockets. He says he wants to end up in New York anyway, but that may be a ploy to cause the Red Sox to panic. We may have to settle for Johnny [...]

Leave a Reply

You may use <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> in your comment.

If this is your first time commenting on River Ave. Blues, please review the RAB Commenter Guidelines. Login for commenting features. Register for RAB.