Is it West Coast vs. East Coast, or warm weather vs. cold weather?
ByAfter the typical national writer musings on the umpires, Alex Rodriguez, and CC Sabathia, Tom Verducci drops an interesting tidbit in his column. After seeing the Angels drop two at Yankee Stadium and the Dodgers drop two at Citizen’s Bank Park, he wondered if there was something different about East Coast baseball, something that put their West Coast counterparts at an inherent disadvantage. Using Philadelphia, New York, Boston, Detroit, and Baltimore as East Coast representatives, Verducci discovered that West Coast teams don’t fare well when coming East.
It turns out there have been 22 playoff matchups when a West Coast team ventured into East Coast Baseball. The result: the West Coast teams are 10-36 in East Coast Baseball venues, a .217 winning percentage. In other words, get them out of their laid-back, warm environment and into the nasty conditions in the East, and they’re not even the 1962 Mets.
And it is not getting any easier. Since 2003 the West Coast teams are 3-17 in East Coast Baseball playoff environments. That’s the kind of history the Dodgers are up against tonight when they play NLCS Game 5 in Philadelphia. Bundle up, Dodgers.
While that isn’t the largest sample, it does look pretty conclusive. Why, then, do West Coast teams fail in East Coast ballparks? Verducci brings up two points: the media and fan environments, and the weather, both of which are more intense than on the West Coast.
Verducci uses seven West Coast teams in his sample, but I want to see what happens when we add the warm weather qualifier. That means the Rangers, Diamondbacks, Angels, Padres, and Dodgers. They are the only four warm West Coast teams to make East Coast playoff trips since 1995. We’ll also add the Mets to the East Coast list (I don’t know why Verducci didn’t).
Since 1995, the Rangers, Diamondbacks, Angels, Padres, and Dodgers are 5-26 on the road against the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, and Mets. That speaks even more to a cold weather bias. The Angels are really the only team with any success in colder weather venues. They have three of the four total wins (the other being Texas in 1996 against the Yanks), but their overall record on the East Coast in October is 4-6.
There is some bias in these samples. First is the home field advantage in the playoffs. I’m not sure what the overall home team winning percentage is, though it’s surely not 84 percent. So the cold weather bias isn’t quite as pronounced as the 5-26 record makes it appear. There’s also the issue of the 2003 NLCS, when the warm weather Marlins played the cold weather Cubs. The Marlins took three of four contests up north. The Marlins also took two of three in New York in 2003. Then again, we’re looking for West Coast and warm weather.
Ask any Jets fan, and he’ll tell you that he’d rather face the Dolphins at home in December. It’s that way with a lot of warm weather football teams. It appears to be the case with baseball as well. While we fans sometimes complain about the frigid conditions at October (and November) games, it seems to give the Yankees an advantage. The Yankees are 14-3 when a warm weather, West Coast team comes to town.
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The Mason Williams Watch
Real simple. West coast teams are pussies.
SPOILED LEASTCOAST PUSSIES, YOUR LUCKY U HAVE THE UMPS ON YOUR SIDE, OR ELSE YOU’D BE CRYING UNDER YOUR “I HATE THE REDSOX” PILLOWS
Great post Joe
You know, the Cubs likely lost to the Marlins because they’re, you know, the Cubs.
They could be located in El Paso and they’d probably still find a way to lose =P
That said, I was kind of hoping you’d go more into the fan environment angle.
Baseball on the East Coast, especially in the Northeast, is a religion, kind of like the way football is in the south. It’s just a completley different atmosphere. We live and die by the Yankees.
I’m going to go ahead and disagree with this angle. I’ve been to games at all the stadiums on the West Coast, and Dodger Stadium and Angels Stadium in particular are inhospitable environments for visiting teams and their fans. Just look at the game threads from last night – every time the Angels looked like they might get back into the game (5th and 6th innings) a ton of comments popped up to the effect of ‘ruh-roh, here comes the crowd,’ yadda yadda. It’s not a “completely different atmosphere” here*. It may be a little more intense here in the media, on a day-to-day basis, but in the stadium it’s not like the baseball fans in the Northeast are so much more intense that it’s that much harder for West Coast teams to win here than it is for East Coast teams to win out there.
This whole ‘baseball in the Northeast is a religion so it’s harder for visiting teams to win on the road here’ thing is just another made-up narrative.
*And this is kind of a tangent, but I’ve been at every home game this postseason, and without getting into yet another drawn-out discussion of the atmosphere in the new stadium, those crowds were not particularly amped up as far as postseason crowds go.
*And this is kind of a tangent, but I’ve been at every home game this postseason, and without getting into yet another drawn-out discussion of the atmosphere in the new stadium, those crowds were not particularly amped up as far as postseason crowds go.
I find that interesting because the other posters here who attended said that the crowd was very into the games, so, please, go on–I’d genuinely like to hear your angle on this.
The crowds have been fine… I’m not saying they’ve been bad or anything. But nothing about the atmosphere in the stadium these first few games leads me to believe that YS3 postseason crowds are any more intense than crowds in other stadiums.
well there’s the issue. i was at alcs game one and i disagree completely with the atmosphere in the new stadium, those crowds were not particularly amped up as far as postseason crowds go. but i completely agree with nothing about the atmosphere in the stadium these first few games leads me to believe that YS3 postseason crowds are any more intense than crowds in other stadiums.
is it you just didn’t explain right the first time?
What? Nothing about those 2 statements is contradictory. I think I said it right both times.
“Not particularly amped up as far as postseason crowds go” = “nothing about the atmosphere in the stadium these first few games leads me to believe that YS3 postseason crowds are any more intense than crowds in other stadiums”
“Not particularly amped up as far as postseason crowds go”
i disagree, i thought it was loud as hell in that stadium and was a great playoff atmosphere. it was louder than when jeter broke the yanks hit record and that was obscenely loud.
“nothing about the atmosphere in the stadium these first few games leads me to believe that YS3 postseason crowds are any more intense than crowds in other stadiums”
exactly. nothing at that game would make me think that ys3 is any louder/crazier or anything than other postseason stadiums.
your first comment s saying that compared to other post season crowds this one ddidn seem amped up to you.
your second comment is saying that you don’t see this crowd being any different/more intense than other crowds in other stadiums
I’m sorry, I should just be nice and compromise here, but I’m right and you’re wrong. What I wrote is clear, and your interpretation of those words is incorrect.
ME: “… not particularly amped up as far as postseason crowds go.”
YOU: “i disagree, i thought it was loud as hell in that stadium and was a great playoff atmosphere.”
You seem to think I’m saying the crowds were not loud, but I said nothing of the sort. The qualifying words “as far as postseason crowds go” are quite important here. In your response to my second statement, as I’ll get to in a second, you say you agree that the crowds at YS3 haven’t been “louder/crazier or anything than other postseason stadiums” (your words), which is the same thing I said in this first statement. As far as postseason crowds go, the YS3 crowds haven’t been particularly loud or crazy.
ME: “… nothing about the atmosphere in the stadium these first few games leads me to believe that YS3 postseason crowds are any more intense than crowds in other stadiums.”
YOU: “exactly. nothing at that game would make me think that ys3 is any louder/crazier or anything than other postseason stadiums.”
My second statement says the same thing as my first statement says. In comparison to other postseason crowds, nothing about the YS3 crowds leads me to believe that YS3 crowds are any more intense than other postseason crowds. You agree with this statement, which says the same exact thing as my first statement.
Both statements were made in the clear context of comparisons between YS3 postseason crowds and other postseason crowds. I didn’t say, anywhere, that the YS3 postseason crowds haven’t been loud and crazy, just that I don’t think they’ve been particularly loud and crazy as far as postseason crowds go (i.e. I don’t think the YS3 postseason crowds have been any more intense, if they’ve been more intense at all, than postseason crowds in other stadiums).
I’ve been to 3/4 home playoff games, and I totally agree with Mondesi. Not sure what exactly it is – whether it be a different type of crowd at the new Stadium, the new Stadium structure not being conducive to holding in the noise, the upper deck being pushed much further back in the New Stadium, etc. – but it definitely has not gotten close to as loud as the Old Stadium used to get in the postseason, IMO. Just a different feel.
Whoops, I see now that’s not really the point THCM was making. My bad.
I just don’t want to get into the same old conversation about YS3 crowds again… Whether I agree with you or not, the important point here is just that it’s not like YS3 crowds are so intense, because baseball is a religious experience in the Northeast, that West Coast teams lose here. I’m not even sure the crowds here are any more intense than anywhere else, let alone that much more intense.
Yea, I actually agree with that sentiment too. Didn’t mean to open up that can of worms – you’re right.
Well, I’m not just referring to the Stadium crowds, however, but the entire atmosphere that pervades the city.
But I see what you’re trying to say.
Not sure about this. Idk where you were sitting but I scored free tix in the 200s on the left field line and everyone was going nuts when there were 2 strikes.. in the 1st inning. It didn’t stop.
You scored free tix? Maybe you know more people into altruism than I.
Most of the players come from warm areas to begin with, no matter where they play, but there’s probably something to it.
That, or the east coast teams have just been better the last ten years. Hard to argue against the Yanks and Red Sox over the past 15 years simply being that much better than everyone else, especially with home field advantage, and that accounts for a lot of those #s. Factor in the Mets, Phillies, Rockies, Indians, White Sox, Twins, and Mariners, and you have the basic fact that most of the good teams have been from cold weather places to begin with.
Moral of the story: go play for a cold weather team.
Have you ever been to Santo Domingo in January? It’s gets to a bone chilling 82°.
Honestly, to me, it all seems like coincidence.
How many players on the Yankees grew up in cold weather climates?
Jeter, Swisher, Damon, Hairston, and maybe you could include Teixeira (Maryland can be chilly). So 5 out of 25. So 20% if you’re generous.
How many home games do the Yankees play in cold weather per year? 15 maybe? Out 81, that’d be roughly 20% again.
Maybe it’s not the cold weather vs warm weather but the time-zone travel?
I think the time zone factor is also a major factor, but the east coast teams also have a time difference when they go out west.
I’m wondering if it is easier to go west than come east. I haven’t done a lot of traveling to the west coast for work, but when I have, it was definitely much easier going there than coming back.
Yea, what a commenter wrote below seems to make sense. I’m not sure.
I think we saw a split similar to this in football. West coast teams last season faired very poorly travelling east for 1PM games because it was still morning for them, they had to get up “earlier” than usual. idk when football players wake up for game day, but if its usually 7 AM then they wake up at 7 AM on a sunday EST, then its like getting up at 4 AM PST.
I’m not sure how its going this year, but I remember a story being made out of the fact that West Coast teams did so poorly coming east (Buffalo i believe was teh only one to lose at home). It might have to do though with many west coast teams being of poorer quality. SF, Oakland, Seattle, Arizona, and Denver were all marginally good at best (until AZ got hot and to the super bowl). San Diego had trouble coming east too.
Whats the record of east coast teams out on the west coast?
I have the West Coast teams 2-11 in those series, so I’d say East Coast teams do a bit better out West.
So basically the West Coast gets smacked around.
pwnage
I just updated the post. It’s 5-26. I forgot to count the Red Sox-Angels ALDS from this year. Also, for A.D., that makes the series 3-11.
you know how i know anaheim fans are gay? thunder sticks. make your own damn noise you soft fairies with your warm weather..
He’s baaaa-aaaaack.
….they also have framed Asia posters on the wall.
Using “gay” as an epithet is as offensive as any racial or ethnic slur, and therefore unacceptable in civil discourse.
touchy touchy. first off it’s a reference to the movie knocked up. second, this is why i don’t bother commenting on these posts anymore.
Oh, ok. So it’s cool for me to start tossing around ethnic slurs as long as it’s a Chris Rock reference?
Of course it’s not. And, frankly, if me calling you out results in another several months of you not being here…I’m more than fine with that.
anonymous internet tough guy! you’re a fucking herb. ban me.
whozat – It’s a joke from a movie that people refer to all the time, if anyone else made that joke nobody would think anything was wrong.
Iron Horse – You’re probably on a short leash with most people around here with the gay jokes considering your past exploits around here. It would probably be in your best interest, and better for everyone involved, for you to express your humor in other ways and to just stay away from gay jokes.
wow i had no idea anyone here was familiar with this moniker. what have i done? i’ve commented about a dozen times. speaking of being way off topic on the weather thing…
Maybe you’re a different “Iron Horse,” but there was a commenter using that name a while back who caused some problems by using insulting language about gays.
must be a different iron horse. i don’t comment much. so much for trying to make a joke at the expense of angels fans…
At least get the movie right. That’s from 40 Year Old Virgin.
Ask any Jet fan, and they want no part of Mark Sanchez playing in the Meadowlands ever again. Sanchez playing in the conditions of Giants Stadium is a road game. I hope he adjusts and gets better. Before last Sunday’s game, Sanchez said he never played or practiced, played or practice, I have to repeat, played or practiced in temperatures below 55. Sorry to get half off topic. But also half on topic
Eli played in the very chilly SEC…
Eli’s also been around for six years. It’ll probably take Sanchez a bit to get used to playing in a late-season Meadowlands game or even a mid-season one.
Is it really the cold weather? From June through September, all the “cold weather teams” play in equally warm weather. I guess this year was an anomaly for the Yankees with all the rain we got in NYC, but still… everybody has a summer.
By Verducci’s logic, if ever they made the playoffs the SF Giants would do really well given how on normal nights in San Francisco, the temperature at AT&T Park can reach the low-50s– not freezing Autumn cold but a lot cooler than the Yankees or Red Sox played through all summer.
I don’t think weather’s too much of a problem. Could it be maybe that the Yankees are actually a better team than the Angels? Maybe? I’m just throwing that one out there?
I noticed something like this, a long, long time ago, and I’ve always thought there was something to it. Now that I am older, I am more apt to blame it on random variance.
The only difference is my observation had nothing to do with weather or baseball. It was strictly that the representative teams from the west did not do well in any of the playoffs for the 4 major sports.
At that time when I thought it, it held true. In fact, even now, it seems to hold true. Since the bash brothers in ’88-’90, only 5 teams from a western division have reached the world series, out of 34 participants.
In that time frame, there have been 96 division winners, plus 28 wildcards, for 124 playoff teams. 34 for of the division winners have been from a western division, and 7 of the wildcards, for a total of 41 western division playoff teams.
41 of 124 is 33%, therefore you would expect the western division to be win the world series 33% of the time, or 6 times.
Not only have they won the world series just once in that time frame, they have only be in the world series 5 times.
Sorry, two world series championships. I had repressed Luis F’ing Gonzalez.
I actually think that part of it has to do with the time difference* and I think it bleeds into other sports as well. For instance, there always seems to be a bias against West coast college football and basketball teams, and it does seem to me (at least anecdotally) that highly ranked West coast teams don’t fare as well as they should.*
Even though I know the macho traveler says that the 3-hr. time difference is meaningless, I think it does make a difference when you play a game at 12 or 1pm ET, and your body is telling you it feels like 9 or 10am, or for a 7-8pm ET start time, which is 4-5pm PT. Even for me, when I travel, it does seem a little easier to get acclimated when flying west than when flying east. In the latter it feels like you burned up your whole day traveling, whereas in the former it just feels like you got up a little earlier.
Just my unsubstantiated 2 cents.
*Disclaimer: this is entirely unsupported conjecture on my part, and (primarily due to laziness) I have not done any research to see if there is any data that might support my theory. I reserve the right to reverse my position in the future.
I was about to write the same thing then I thought about it a little more. I think its more of a factor in football with the 1pm east coast starts. But in baseball east coast games are at 7pm (4pm PDT) and the west coast games are 4 or 7pm. If anything the WC 7pm games would be worse for the east coast teams.
However it could play a factor in game 1 (at the east coast team) if the WC team just had a red eye flight and still hasnt adjusted.
Is still think there is an advantage for the East Coast team playing at a 7pm ET start time (4pm for the West Coast team). At a minimum for the West Coast team, it is a disruption that can screw up your rhythm. I mean, for instance, what time do you eat dinner? I think you have to eat before the game, but that means eating at what your body is telling you is like 2:30 in the afternoon, right?
Also, in the playoffs, I don’t think there are any really late WC start times. Only the first round had a few 6:30pm PT starts, which would be 9:30pm ET. I think the latest start times during the rest of the playoffs is 5pm PT/8pm ET so that it lands in prime time for the East Coast viewers.
Plus, even with a 6:30pm PT/9:30pm ET start time, which might cut slightly against an East Coast team, I still think that’s easier than playing a game at the same 6:30pm ET for a West coast team.
It it was a matter of time zone changes, I would imagine that this would be measurable over the entire season. For instance, the percentage of games lost by east coast teams going west and vice-versa, whether the east coast or west coast team loses more at the beginning of a trip as as opposed to the end of a trip (due to adjusting to the time zone change).
It might be a way of addressing it as a variable.
One could probably also take into consideration games played in April and, perhaps, early May. Do teams moving from Florida and Arizona in spring training struggle in cold-weather climates? Do east coast teams struggle against west coast teams (or, again, vice-versa) at the beginning of a season?
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What about the Rockies? The National League plays there around 18 times a year, no?
And I think it depends on the player…not everybody reacts the same way to certain things. Randy Johnson hated pitching in the cold…there are a few pitchers that don’t like it…and I’d be willing to bet that even the successful ones who pitch in cold weather would rather pitch elsewhere…some just deal with it differently. Same goes for the position players. Robinson Cano was wearing the same head gear that Aybar and the others were wearing.
It also depends where the player is from. Like in the “bug incident” in the 07 ALDS. A heavier set white guy from Nebraska had bugs nesting on his neck as he continued to sweat and perspire profusely. Then Fausto Carmona from the Dominican Republic didn’t seem to have nearly as much trouble as he probably doesn’t sweat nearly as much and probably is used to bugs the size of your hand when he was growing up. Mariano Rivera, same thing…wasn’t effected by it at all.
It doesn’t depend on the team…it’s the individual I believe.
i would think its obvious that living in a cold climate you get more used to preparing for playing in a cold weather – its a inconvenience rather than a shock.