Comments on: Open Thread: Who have been the most valuable Yankees? (Part III) http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/open-thread-who-have-been-the-most-valuable-yankees-part-iii-19020/ A New York Yankees Blog Wed, 15 Feb 2012 08:17:04 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jud http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/open-thread-who-have-been-the-most-valuable-yankees-part-iii-19020/#comment-653371 Jud Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:32:51 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=19020#comment-653371 WAR will always undervalue relief pitchers as it does not provide any additional value for leverage. So a scoreless inning in the 1st inning is worth exactly the same as that in the 9th, providing that the outs were obtained the same way. WPA (Win Probability Added) goes to the other extreme. A HR in a blowout is worth practically zero while a game winning sacrifice is worth a huge amount. By this measure, the best pitcher was Mariano by a huge margin while the best hitter was Damon (!!). The "truth" as usual is somewhere in the middle. WAR will always undervalue relief pitchers as it does not provide any additional value for leverage. So a scoreless inning in the 1st inning is worth exactly the same as that in the 9th, providing that the outs were obtained the same way.
WPA (Win Probability Added) goes to the other extreme. A HR in a blowout is worth practically zero while a game winning sacrifice is worth a huge amount. By this measure, the best pitcher was Mariano by a huge margin while the best hitter was Damon (!!).
The “truth” as usual is somewhere in the middle.

]]> By: Januz http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/open-thread-who-have-been-the-most-valuable-yankees-part-iii-19020/#comment-653230 Januz Tue, 27 Oct 2009 04:25:34 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=19020#comment-653230 I don't like jamming offensive and defensive stats together either. There are certain guys whose defense was so off the chart, you have to look at how many runs they save a season, so that any offense they give, is a bonus (See Ozzie Smith). There are other guys who would have superior WAR numbers, but are terrible in the clutch (See Dave Winfield), and there are still others who would have great clutch numbers but terrible WAR numbers (Because of poor defense and a low batting average (Reggie Jackson)). Basically, you can manipulate data anyway you want, by changing around a few variables, which gives you a desired outcome (Which does provoke controversy, by stating the Ben Zobrist had the best statistical season in baseball, and even WORSE by stating the Rays, "Statistically Speaking" were the second best team in baseball). If you look at Zobrist's numbers you see 27, 91, 91, .297 in 599 At Bats. By comparison, Alex Rodriguez was 30, 100, 78, .286 in 444 At Bats. (Thats right, 155 LESS At Bats (Yet more homers and RBI's, and 13 less runs scored). Unless, Zobrist has Ozzie Smith defensive stats (Or Arod is a major defensive liability), Zobrist's season is not close to Arod's. This little example does not even go into team numbers, or what Arod produced in the playoffs, so far. I don’t like jamming offensive and defensive stats together either. There are certain guys whose defense was so off the chart, you have to look at how many runs they save a season, so that any offense they give, is a bonus (See Ozzie Smith). There are other guys who would have superior WAR numbers, but are terrible in the clutch (See Dave Winfield), and there are still others who would have great clutch numbers but terrible WAR numbers (Because of poor defense and a low batting average (Reggie Jackson)).
Basically, you can manipulate data anyway you want, by changing around a few variables, which gives you a desired outcome (Which does provoke controversy, by stating the Ben Zobrist had the best statistical season in baseball, and even WORSE by stating the Rays, “Statistically Speaking” were the second best team in baseball). If you look at Zobrist’s numbers you see 27, 91, 91, .297 in 599 At Bats. By comparison, Alex Rodriguez was 30, 100, 78, .286 in 444 At Bats. (Thats right, 155 LESS At Bats (Yet more homers and RBI’s, and 13 less runs scored). Unless, Zobrist has Ozzie Smith defensive stats (Or Arod is a major defensive liability), Zobrist’s season is not close to Arod’s. This little example does not even go into team numbers, or what Arod produced in the playoffs, so far.

]]> By: Drew http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/open-thread-who-have-been-the-most-valuable-yankees-part-iii-19020/#comment-653215 Drew Tue, 27 Oct 2009 04:02:46 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=19020#comment-653215 I've been lead to believe that Teix's Shatty UZR is related to a few things. One: Robbie has great range to his left so Teix plays closer to the line than other 1st baseman who don't have such a rangey 2nd baseman. This reduces his range(thus negatively impacting his UZR) because there is simply less fair ground for him to cover. Two: Teix plays shallower than most first baseman because he has less ground to cover(again due to Robbie's range). There's a few other things that I can't seem to remember. Either way, I'm not yet a big fan of the UZR. I’ve been lead to believe that Teix’s Shatty UZR is related to a few things.

One: Robbie has great range to his left so Teix plays closer to the line than other 1st baseman who don’t have such a rangey 2nd baseman. This reduces his range(thus negatively impacting his UZR) because there is simply less fair ground for him to cover.

Two: Teix plays shallower than most first baseman because he has less ground to cover(again due to Robbie’s range).

There’s a few other things that I can’t seem to remember.

Either way, I’m not yet a big fan of the UZR.

]]> By: Will http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/open-thread-who-have-been-the-most-valuable-yankees-part-iii-19020/#comment-653208 Will Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:48:13 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=19020#comment-653208 I don't disagree with your point, but you make it seem as if everyone only watches their team's players. Just because Jeter has been a mainstay doesn't mean a Yankee fan has been watching opposing short stops or other team's games. I don’t disagree with your point, but you make it seem as if everyone only watches their team’s players. Just because Jeter has been a mainstay doesn’t mean a Yankee fan has been watching opposing short stops or other team’s games.

]]> By: Ben84 http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/open-thread-who-have-been-the-most-valuable-yankees-part-iii-19020/#comment-653203 Ben84 Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:41:22 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=19020#comment-653203 The defensive component of WAR makes it's a very poor metric, in my humble opinion. I am never comfortable with stats that try to jam offensive and defensive metrics into one box. The defensive component of WAR makes it’s a very poor metric, in my humble opinion. I am never comfortable with stats that try to jam offensive and defensive metrics into one box.

]]> By: Matt ACTY/BBD http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/open-thread-who-have-been-the-most-valuable-yankees-part-iii-19020/#comment-653183 Matt ACTY/BBD Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:03:45 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=19020#comment-653183 D-Rob's on MLB Network right now. Awesome. D-Rob’s on MLB Network right now. Awesome.

]]> By: thurdonpaul http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/open-thread-who-have-been-the-most-valuable-yankees-part-iii-19020/#comment-653163 thurdonpaul Tue, 27 Oct 2009 02:40:14 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=19020#comment-653163 thats what i guessed, you are a more talented man then i am, i cant think of any sport now except baseball :) thats what i guessed, you are a more talented man then i am, i cant think of any sport now except baseball :)

]]> By: sk http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/open-thread-who-have-been-the-most-valuable-yankees-part-iii-19020/#comment-653161 sk Tue, 27 Oct 2009 02:37:27 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=19020#comment-653161 It's hard to chose one infielder because those guys were really like Voltron. It’s hard to chose one infielder because those guys were really like Voltron.

]]> By: tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/open-thread-who-have-been-the-most-valuable-yankees-part-iii-19020/#comment-653123 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside Tue, 27 Oct 2009 02:08:38 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=19020#comment-653123 Sorry. NFL on the brain for me at the moment. Sorry. NFL on the brain for me at the moment.

]]> By: Chris http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/open-thread-who-have-been-the-most-valuable-yankees-part-iii-19020/#comment-653096 Chris Tue, 27 Oct 2009 01:47:36 +0000 http://riveraveblues.com/?p=19020#comment-653096 Have they been declared free agents? Chapman went quickly because he had his passport when he defected. That's not typical, and it can often take roughly a year to validate a defector's identity, citizenship, etc. Have they been declared free agents? Chapman went quickly because he had his passport when he defected. That’s not typical, and it can often take roughly a year to validate a defector’s identity, citizenship, etc.

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