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	<title>Comments on: Winning by any means necessary</title>
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	<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/winning-by-any-means-necessary-17788/</link>
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		<title>By: Texas river land for sale &#124; Riverfront Land and Lots</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/winning-by-any-means-necessary-17788/#comment-611266</link>
		<dc:creator>Texas river land for sale &#124; Riverfront Land and Lots</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 20:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=17788#comment-611266</guid>
		<description>[...] Winning by any means necessary &#124; River Avenue BluesThat was at Texas. Sutcliffe accused him of stealing the signs this year. Reply. tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside says: October 1st, 2009 at 10:00 am. This only makes me want to give the MVP vote that I don&#8217;t have to Joe Mauer all the &#8230; this is a non-story and you are treating it as if it is controversial. it&#8217;s great there are these forums run by excellent writers w/ curious statistical minds. but next time there is whole-sale bashing of the establishment, &#8230;&#160;&#160;read more&#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Winning by any means necessary | River Avenue BluesThat was at Texas. Sutcliffe accused him of stealing the signs this year. Reply. tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside says: October 1st, 2009 at 10:00 am. This only makes me want to give the MVP vote that I don&#8217;t have to Joe Mauer all the &#8230; this is a non-story and you are treating it as if it is controversial. it&#8217;s great there are these forums run by excellent writers w/ curious statistical minds. but next time there is whole-sale bashing of the establishment, &#8230;&nbsp;&nbsp;read more&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: dan</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/winning-by-any-means-necessary-17788/#comment-609125</link>
		<dc:creator>dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 11:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=17788#comment-609125</guid>
		<description>So a manager couldn&#039;t steal a 3rd base coach&#039;s sign from the bench and signal to his players to play the bunt from the bench?  It&#039;s gotta be a player on the field who picks this stuff up?  That makes so much more sense, thanks.    

What we&#039;re arguing is semantics.  At the end of the day, cheating is cheating.  That&#039;s what I meant when I said &quot;The intended purpose is the same in both instances — give the batter an advantage. The only difference lies in the means by which you accomplish it.&quot; Stael signs, peek in the glove, relay signals using telegraph, check video and walkie it in -- essentially all the same shit we&#039;re talking here. 

Just because one way of cheating is more socially accepted in some baseball circles than another doesn&#039;t necessarily make it different or a better brand of cheating.  It&#039;s still cheating. Kinda like how manslaughter is a degree of murder with a lighter penalty, but still it&#039;s fucking murder, right?  

And cheating has always been a MAJOR part of baseball, people just don&#039;t readily accept that as fact.  Think of the ways players have accomplished it in the last 100 years: corked bats, doctored balls, gambling, stolen signs, PEDs, the list goes on. You can&#039;t really pick and choose which one is okay and which one isn&#039;t despite our best efforts.  Cheating is cheating, it&#039;s that cut and dry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So a manager couldn&#8217;t steal a 3rd base coach&#8217;s sign from the bench and signal to his players to play the bunt from the bench?  It&#8217;s gotta be a player on the field who picks this stuff up?  That makes so much more sense, thanks.    </p>
<p>What we&#8217;re arguing is semantics.  At the end of the day, cheating is cheating.  That&#8217;s what I meant when I said &#8220;The intended purpose is the same in both instances — give the batter an advantage. The only difference lies in the means by which you accomplish it.&#8221; Stael signs, peek in the glove, relay signals using telegraph, check video and walkie it in &#8212; essentially all the same shit we&#8217;re talking here. </p>
<p>Just because one way of cheating is more socially accepted in some baseball circles than another doesn&#8217;t necessarily make it different or a better brand of cheating.  It&#8217;s still cheating. Kinda like how manslaughter is a degree of murder with a lighter penalty, but still it&#8217;s fucking murder, right?  </p>
<p>And cheating has always been a MAJOR part of baseball, people just don&#8217;t readily accept that as fact.  Think of the ways players have accomplished it in the last 100 years: corked bats, doctored balls, gambling, stolen signs, PEDs, the list goes on. You can&#8217;t really pick and choose which one is okay and which one isn&#8217;t despite our best efforts.  Cheating is cheating, it&#8217;s that cut and dry.</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/winning-by-any-means-necessary-17788/#comment-608701</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:57:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=17788#comment-608701</guid>
		<description>Steal signs. Give them to Arod. Watch balls leave earth. Profit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steal signs. Give them to Arod. Watch balls leave earth. Profit.</p>
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		<title>By: Dail M for Mauer</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/winning-by-any-means-necessary-17788/#comment-608631</link>
		<dc:creator>Dail M for Mauer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 19:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=17788#comment-608631</guid>
		<description>[...] River Ave. Blues has the best take on Joe Mauer allegedly stealing signs that I’ve seen. To me, this is a non-story. Isn’t a pitcher and catcher supposed to have an alternative set of signs to use with a runner at second? Maybe Joe has ESP(n) and can just read the mind of Laird. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] River Ave. Blues has the best take on Joe Mauer allegedly stealing signs that I’ve seen. To me, this is a non-story. Isn’t a pitcher and catcher supposed to have an alternative set of signs to use with a runner at second? Maybe Joe has ESP(n) and can just read the mind of Laird. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bo</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/winning-by-any-means-necessary-17788/#comment-608604</link>
		<dc:creator>Bo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 18:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=17788#comment-608604</guid>
		<description>Isnt stealing signs part of the game?  Teams are supposed to change their signs when runners hit 2nd base.  Seems lazy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isnt stealing signs part of the game?  Teams are supposed to change their signs when runners hit 2nd base.  Seems lazy.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike T</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/winning-by-any-means-necessary-17788/#comment-608550</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=17788#comment-608550</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s part of the game.  I guess it&#039;s not the same as yelling &#039;I got it&#039; running the bases behind the third baseman in a crucial game according to some baseball &#039;purists&#039;.  Or are only the &#039;Joe Mauer&#039;s&#039; allowed to cheat.  Kinda like Big Floppi wailing against steroid users after A-Rod&#039;s addmission but crying like Baby Huey when he&#039;s on the same list?  Amazingly even with ALWAYS having to play by &#039;higher&#039; standards A-Rod remains the best, eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s part of the game.  I guess it&#8217;s not the same as yelling &#8216;I got it&#8217; running the bases behind the third baseman in a crucial game according to some baseball &#8216;purists&#8217;.  Or are only the &#8216;Joe Mauer&#8217;s&#8217; allowed to cheat.  Kinda like Big Floppi wailing against steroid users after A-Rod&#8217;s addmission but crying like Baby Huey when he&#8217;s on the same list?  Amazingly even with ALWAYS having to play by &#8216;higher&#8217; standards A-Rod remains the best, eh?</p>
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		<title>By: JD NYC</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/winning-by-any-means-necessary-17788/#comment-608543</link>
		<dc:creator>JD NYC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=17788#comment-608543</guid>
		<description>I went down a dumb path to begin with. If the clip is posted on a blog to show a cool example of Joe Mauer succeeding at a seldom disected aspect of inside baseball, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

But if the clip is posted on a blog as evidence of cheating in baseball and to stir a debate over the &quot;rightness&quot; or &quot;wrongness&quot; of it, then I think that is a non-story, and I think, just in this one case, an analyst w/ playing experience (on any level) would be able to make that distinction.

I did not feel either Deadspin nor RAB gave a clear indication that Mauer&#039;s sign stealing is beyond reproach, but that doesn&#039;t mean they intended to debate the morality of it. I assumed they did and have been shown (repeatedly) where I was mistaken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I went down a dumb path to begin with. If the clip is posted on a blog to show a cool example of Joe Mauer succeeding at a seldom disected aspect of inside baseball, I wholeheartedly agree with you.</p>
<p>But if the clip is posted on a blog as evidence of cheating in baseball and to stir a debate over the &#8220;rightness&#8221; or &#8220;wrongness&#8221; of it, then I think that is a non-story, and I think, just in this one case, an analyst w/ playing experience (on any level) would be able to make that distinction.</p>
<p>I did not feel either Deadspin nor RAB gave a clear indication that Mauer&#8217;s sign stealing is beyond reproach, but that doesn&#8217;t mean they intended to debate the morality of it. I assumed they did and have been shown (repeatedly) where I was mistaken.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Kabak</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/winning-by-any-means-necessary-17788/#comment-608538</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Kabak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=17788#comment-608538</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s look at the gamelog:
B Keppel relieved B Duensing.	0	3
B Inge singled to left, R Raburn and M Cabrera scored, M Thames to second.

It&#039;s quite easy to see how a too-quick glance at the gamelog could lead to that mistake. If you can&#039;t see that, well, then you&#039;ve lost all credibility and my respect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s look at the gamelog:<br />
B Keppel relieved B Duensing.	0	3<br />
B Inge singled to left, R Raburn and M Cabrera scored, M Thames to second.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s quite easy to see how a too-quick glance at the gamelog could lead to that mistake. If you can&#8217;t see that, well, then you&#8217;ve lost all credibility and my respect.</p>
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		<title>By: thurdonpaul</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/winning-by-any-means-necessary-17788/#comment-608497</link>
		<dc:creator>thurdonpaul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 16:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=17788#comment-608497</guid>
		<description>is my connection to RAB messed up ?  or is there a general problem here,  i seem to be froze</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>is my connection to RAB messed up ?  or is there a general problem here,  i seem to be froze</p>
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		<title>By: Tank Foster</title>
		<link>http://riveraveblues.com/2009/10/winning-by-any-means-necessary-17788/#comment-608458</link>
		<dc:creator>Tank Foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 16:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riveraveblues.com/?p=17788#comment-608458</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s ridiculous, Dan.  You completely miss the key difference between a player, on the field, being observant and obtaining information, and a team using non-players and technology to influence the game.  &quot;Stealing&quot; signs isn&#039;t stealing, it isn&#039;t wrong.  It&#039;s part of being alert and playing baseball.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s ridiculous, Dan.  You completely miss the key difference between a player, on the field, being observant and obtaining information, and a team using non-players and technology to influence the game.  &#8220;Stealing&#8221; signs isn&#8217;t stealing, it isn&#8217;t wrong.  It&#8217;s part of being alert and playing baseball.</p>
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