Fans retain optimism after Game 5 loss
ByGame 5 of the World Series felt a lot like Game 5 of the ALCS. The Yankees readied for the kill, but A.J. Burnett failed them early. In the ALCS, he allowed six straight base runners, leading to four first-inning runs. In the World Series, he allowed four straight base runners, leading to three first-inning runs. Burnett would be the goat in both games, even though he settled down in the ALCS. His seventh-inning performance in that game led to the loss, though in the World Series he didn’t wait that long, allowing two more runs in the third inning.
Yet when I got home after the game, and then again this morning, I noticed a sense of optimism from the Yankees fan base. I wasn’t the only one. As Ross from New Stadium Insider noted on his Twitter account, “Up 3-2 to the Angels, there was panic in the streets. Up 3-2 to the Phillies, people are planning a parade. What’s the deal?” It’s an interesting question. Why are Yankees fans optimistic now when they were less so in the ALCS?
I can’t answer for everyone, but here are my three main reasons.
1. The Yankees had a history with the Angels
During the Joe Torre era, the Yankees faced the Angels twice in the playoffs, losing both times. Those old feelings certainly lingered during the ALCS. There was panic when the Angels won Game 3 — though mostly because of the managerial decision that preceded the loss. The Yankees had a chance to go up 3-0 and they blew it. Even after a 10-1 drubbing, fans were in a panic after the Yankees dropped a winnable Game 5.
The negative feelings also had to do with how the Yankees lost Game 5 of the ALCS. Burnett put them in an early hole, but they rallied back in the seventh to take a two-run lead. But then the Yanks blew that and lost the game. It’s one thing if the team is losing the entire way, like Game 5 of the World Series. It’s quite another when they rally back from a big deficit and then give it back.
Beyond the history with the Angels, there’s the thought that they’re a better team than the Phillies. This isn’t a knock on the Phillies — they’re certainly the best team in the NL — but the Angels had a good season and put up a fight in the ALCS. Many thought that the battle of baseball’s best took place in the league championship, not in the World Series. It’s understandable, then, that fans would be in more of a panic after losing Game 5 to a team they thought best equipped to beat the Yankees.
2. The Yankees have beaten all of Philadelphia’s non-Lee starters
Cliff Lee is easily the Phillies best pitcher. The Yankees have faced him twice in the World Series and have lost both times. That can be disheartening if he’s scheduled to pitch a potential Game 7, but he’s not. Game 5 was his last start, and the Yankees have beaten the Game 6 and potential Game 7 starters. The lack of Lee, in other words, is inspiring in itself.
If the Yankees lost Game 6 of the ALCS, they likely would have faced the Angels’ best, John Lackey. If they lose Game 6 of the World Series, they’ll face either Cole Hamels or J.A. Happ, neither of whom is Philly’s best. But even before that, there’s plenty of confidence from Yankees fans about beating Pedro Martinez in Game 6. He pitched well in Game 2, but can he pull yet another rabbit out of his hat? It’s almost the same deal as with Joe Saunders, really.
3. The Yankees made statements by beating the Angels and taking three straight from the Phillies
The past certainly plays into this sense of optimism. After a panic following the Game 5 loss in the ALCS, fans were treated to a hell of a game back at the Stadium. They chipped away at Joe Saunders before finally breaking through. I think that win set up some intense optimism, and even a Game 5 loss in the World Series couldn’t completely destroy that. Because there is precedent, Yankees fans seem more confident in the World Series Game 6.
There is also lingering optimism from beating the Phillies in three straight games, two of them in Philadelphia. The Yanks out-pitched and out-hit the Phillies in those contests, and I think that instilled Yankees fans with a sense of confidence. It’s not like in the Angels series, where the Yankees lost two winnable games. They lost pretty definitively in Games 1 and 5 (even though they had a comeback chance in the latter).
Surely there are other reasons to remain optimistic, but for me these are the big three. The Yankees have played like the better team in each of their three postseason series. There’s no reason to lose confidence because they lost one game in Philadelphia. As with the ALCS, no one thought the World Series would be a cakewalk. It would have been nice to close it out last night, but there’s every reason in the world to be confident that the Yankees will do it on Wednesday evening.
I though the exact same thing.
Oooh, a post about optimism.
I approve =)
Chin up people, we’re still in the motherfuckin’ World Series and have the mothafuckin’ lead.
Fo Mothafuckin real, yo.
I completely agree. If you told any Yankee fan before this series started that we would be up 3-2 with Andy and CC ready to start games 6 & 7 and Cliff Lee was done all of us would have taken this scenario in a heartbeat.
lets be real. The Angels are just flat out better than Philly. Their pitching is much much better. Even their so so bullpen is better.
If Scioscia had started Weaver instead of Saunders like he should have it may have even got more scary.
+27 The Phillies might hit a little better, but I think some of that is the ballpark. Phillies’ pitching is awful, and the Yankees need to put them away now.
The difference there is the Angels made 8 errors and several key mistakes through out there series and still made it to a Game 6 after throwing some possible wins down the toilet.
The Phillies haven’t really made nearly as many mistakes (or errors for that matter) and have very good hitting to go along with it. Not to mention Chase Utley freely crushing any pitch he sees doesn’t help either. Somebody needs to send a message…and make him a little less comfortable.
Completely agree, tell Andy to hit him up and in during the top of the first inning and then we both get warned and then Pedro can’t throw inside before he even starts. Give the Phillies a taste of their own game 4 medicine.
I agree. They don’t have to hit him. Just knock him down and make him a little uncomfortable.
Won’t make a difference. Utley has been among the league leaders in HBP for the past few years. Yanks should just pitch very carefully to him.
Who cares if he leads the league in HBP?
He can’t go any farther than first, and Andy has to waste all of one pitch.
Well if he led the league in HBP he’ll be used to it then, give him a couple more bruises Andy.
2) & 3) definitely Some thought how can we beat the Phils if we cant put away the Angels
Let’s say Utley hits one or two more HR’s and phils still lose the series. Any chance he will win the MVP?
I’d vote for him to win the MVP in a losing effort.
Unless one of our 5 candidates (Damon, Jeter, and ARod on the offense; Mo in the pen, and Andy if he wins another game tomorrow and looks impressive) does something remarkable during Game 6, of course.
I think Mo will get it because of the media’s infatuation with the save statistic. Although getting 3 saves (if he gets the save tomorrow) in the World Series would be impressive
Yes, but if he gets the save tomorrow, it would mean not only that he got three saves in the WS, but also that Andy Pettitte (in all likelihood) got two wins in the World Series.
Two wins >>> three saves.
Good point. Plus Mariano already has a WS MVP, Pettitte could use one of those things, it would be a feel good story after the end of last year and a nice narrative to end the season.
But if Pettitte goes 6 innings and gives up 4 runs and gets the win, could you really see someone winning the WS MVP with a 6.00 ERA?
I agree. It all depends on how he does tomorrow. I think a strong performance may net him the MVP.
It’s probably moot, though, because ARod will in all likelihood crush a mammoth homer or two off of Pedro and wrap the damn award up himself.
my narrative is cooler.
Nope.
Glad my numerous tweets are able to inspire something more than 140 characters in length. Well said, Joe.
Both pitchers tomorrow are going to get lit up and knocked out early and it is going to be a back and forth slug fest. It will come down to which lineup does the most damage. I think it is going to be a 13-11 score. Hopefully the Yanks will win because I do not think Petitte is going to have a good start on 3 days rest.
…
…
[just for emphasis]
I do not think Petitte is going to have a good start on 3 days rest.
I agree. He’s going to have a GREAT start: 8IP, 0R, 4H, 1BB, 7K.
+27
…
Off-topic.
Well, technically it’s kinda on-topic. We’re all talking about how optimistic we are following Game 5 leading into Game 6.
Sal is not optimistic.
(I can only assume this Sal is not the same Sal from Sal/Bo/Grant/Lanny, because Bo/Lanny wouldn’t do that. He’s not pessimistic, he knows we have the upper hand.)
Bo and Lanny? Sounds like somebody’s parent’s friends they would go over for dinner.
“Alright kids, we’re going over to Bo and Lanny’s…be good to the babysitter!”
Well I’m so worried I’m ready to slit my wrists….
Ok, maybe not.
The panic after game 5 was mostly caused by things that have long since passed. In addition to the playoff failures against the Angels, there was the whole “2004″ thing that will always linger in the minds of Yankees fans. Those fears, while understandable, failed to take into account match ups and things that actually matter.
I think the optimism you’re seeing is much more rooted in reality and logic. We have a 3-2 lead going back home with the pitching advantage in both games. We started hitting in Philadelphia. We have the all-time postseason wins leader against our son in game 6 and our $161 million ace against either a rookie who had a fluky season or a guy who wants the season to be over in game 7. We are 6-1 at home this postseason. We have the greatest relief pitcher in postseason history to clinch the final out. If we can’t win one of those two games, we don’t deserve to be world champions.
>> If we can’t win one of those two games, we don’t deserve to be world champions. >>
And that’s it in the proverbial nutshell.
I think the optimism you’re seeing is much more rooted in reality and logic.
I have nothing to add, I just wanted to repeat that louder to make sure everyone could hear it.
We have a 3-2 lead going back home with the pitching advantage in both games.
See, that’s only valid if you don’t think like a pessimist. Is Andy on 3 really better than Pedro on 4? What if Hamels holds it together for 4 innings and they bring in Lee in game 7?
That is how a pessimist thinks. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
The only thing I’m sure of: if Andy or CC pitch a “quality start” (6 IP, 3 or fewer runs), the Yankees will be world champions. If they crap the bed, anything can happen.
Oh trust me, I’ve been a Yankees fan my entire life. I’m very familiar with the concept of pessimism. However, I try to view things realistically. Could the Phillies win this world series? Absolutely. They have an extremely tough lineup and although their pitchers aren’t exactly terrifying statistically, Pedro and Hamels could put up solid outings and Utley could continue to own us. I just don’t think that is what will take place.
Remember Suzyn, you can’t predict baseball. You just can’t.
I liked the way aceves looked last night…maybe he got his mojo back..
They wanted to close it out at home so they could do it in walk-off fashion. A very fitting end to a very exciting 2009 season. Let’s Go Yankees!
We’re up 3 games to 2 and we have home field advantage where we have a mlb-leading 63-25 overall record. Not to mention we’ve beaten all non-Lee starters and have proven we can beat up their bullpen too.
my optimism comes from the simple fact that the yeankees are a better team in every way than the phils. Also the games are back in NY, where pitchers don’t hit, molina doesn’t catch, and cheese steaks are $14.
Don’t forget $10 beers!!
the day I forget beer is the day I call it a life.
IETC
“I think the Yankees fans will be a lot more optimistic once the Yankees win the World Series.”
Going by the reaction at the bar last night during and after the game, the prevailing notion seemed to be this: Not a lot of people expected to win against Lee last night (especially lacking Jorge and Hideki in the lineup), and lots of people almost didn’t want the win because they want it won in the new Stadium.
That was one of the other reasons I thought AJ’s start would have been better in NY. He’d be at home so we’d have Matsui in the line up at least…without Jorge….
“Lots of people almost didn’t want the win because they want it won in the new Stadium”. Nice sentiment, but not well thought out…what happens if the Yankees lose the next two games by some chance and blow the Series? It doesn’t matter WHERE you pop the cork, as long as you GET to pop the cork. I would rather have them win it on the road, then have to win one of the next two games. It has come down to a one or two game season. The Yankees have played very well in the new Stadium. That doesn’t mean they can’t lose there. Be careful what you wish for.
I didn’t say that I agreed or disagreed with the sentiment, just passing along what I’ve seen as a common feeling. If I have my choice of where they’d win it, NY hands down. But winning the whole thing is by far and away more important. Though don’t think the Yanks brass minds the huge amounts of extra money they’ll make tomorrow alone.
You wouldn’t think there was any optimism listening to Francesa today. Girardi starting his pitchers on three days rest will be one of the all-time blunders in World Series history…something that’s written about for decades.
Meanwhile, back in reality, the Yankees are coming to the Bronx up 3-2, their two best pitchers ready to go, an offense that seems to be coming around, and the corpse of Pedro Martinez standing between them and a World Series title.
This ends tomorrow.
I’ve been listening too so that I could find out when Girardi’s going to be on (3pm). His insistence that they should have pitched Gaudin because it was a “free” game is just sickening.
He keeps saying there is no way Gaudin would have been worse than Burnett. Oh well.
Reason #4) Hideki Matsui and Jorge Posada will be back in the starting lineup pushing Nick Swisher and Brett Gardener back to their rightful places in the batting order (8th and 9th respectively).
Lets do this!
I gotta admit, I’m a little excited to see the rebirth of the wrap-around double leadoff hitter with Gardner-Jeter in the 9-1 spots…
I would be more excited if Gardner, you know, hit the ball with authority. He looks flabbergasted that the pitchers are actually throwing strikes to him.
Gardner saves runs and the pitcher’s arm. Melky does not catch that ball off Werth last night and the inning would have surely been tougher with a man on second – probably scoring.
Overall, I think we lose very little with Melky out of the lineup.
Sorry, JeffG(ardner).
Don’t take it so personally. I give all the credit in the world to his defense. I just wish that Brett’s offense was half as good as his defense, that’s for sure.
Oh nothing to debate – he was looking the ball go over the plate and ito the mit last night but I’ll deal with him not scoring because I see his playes that others don’t make and understand a run is a run.
I’m praying for Gardner to have a little replay of that hot period he had in the summer. Gardner gets 3 hits tomorrow night, the Yankees will be scoring some runs.
Let’s hope his BABIP magic keeps riding for one more game.
At least if Brett gets on base in front of Jete, he might be able to get to second faster to break up a DP!
Sorry Jete, you know I love you.
What are the chances that Tex and Cano go 0 for the WS; What are the chances that Pedro shuts us down again; What are the chances that the Yanks find themselves trailing in an elimination game before the Phillies do (first half inning of game 5 doesn’t count); What are the chances that Bruney, Coke or Gaudin are standing on the mound again this post-season or that Molina has a bat in his hand; What are the chances that Victorino is at 100% the next 2 days; What are the chances that Manuel actually finds his genius button before this series is over. Add them all up and you’ve got to like the Yanks’ chances!
None actually. Both of them already have hits
:-p
What are the chances that Tex and Cano go 0 for the WS
0% as they each have a couple of hits.
What are the chances that the Yanks find themselves trailing in an elimination game before the Phillies do (first half inning of game 5 doesn’t count)
Much worse than the other way around.
What are the chances that Bruney, Coke or Gaudin are standing on the mound again this post-season or that Molina has a bat in his hand
Not very good for either of them unless our starter is out before the 5th inning. As for Molina, if Posada is healthy…Molina has seen the last of this World Series as a player.
What are the chances that Victorino is at 100% the next 2 days
Means nothing. We all were assuming he’d be 100% up until yesterday…and still I haven’t really thought about it.
What are the chances that Manuel actually finds his genius button before this series is over.
Slightly better than you finding yours. LOL
Rose, you went for the cheap laugh and hurt my feelings. Shame on you. The “0 for the WS Statement” was metaphorical not literal. Cano and Tex have basically had 0 impact so far. If Victorino can’t throw or swing a bat or is impaired in doing so that is BIG so think about it. If you still think it means nothing then you have me worried about your chances of finding your genius button
http://www.thearmsroomtx.com/bayonets.jpg
(straps Pedro dummy to tackling sled)
The biggest thing that I liked out of last night’s game was the look of their bullpen and the look of ours without Coke.
In my mind, Andy gets the start but with a really quick hook attached. As long as we do not post them the runs that AJ allowed it is a bullpen duel that I think we would be poised to win. Coceivably we could go the whole game without Andy:
Robertson – innings 1,2
Ace – 3,4,5 (really thought his curvball was like that of old last night – very well located)
Phil – 6
Joba – 7
Mo – 8,9 to close for the WS win.
Marte mixed in the latter innings for lefties.
If Andy can give us five all the better. But I worry about him locating with less rest. As long as we do not spot them a stupid number I think we can hope to pull the game off at some point.
The key to a good bullpen is using your relievers as sparingly as possible.
Yup. It’s just like I tell the ladies over and over again:
The key to prevent female pelvic soreness and discomfort is to remember to take me in moderation. There is such thing as “too much of a good thing”. Make sure you pace yourself, stretch properly both before and after, and remember to take breaks.
It feels good now, yes, but if you’re not disciplined, it won’t feel good in the morning.
Wow! You must be a hit at those government Christmas parties…
Or inside the local “Curves” lol
My economic stimulus package is the perfect way to end a Great Depression.
(the economic stimulus package is his penis)
…right because that means the starter did his job. But with Andy on short rest we are not guaranteed that will be the case. Might need guys to give us some length.
During the regualr season you run the risk of wearing guys out… but this is not the case here as the long winter awaits.
Ace can go a few, and D-Rob looked good for two yesterday. One inning out of Phil and Joba and two from Mo seem reasonable.
You stick Andy holding them off for a couple of innings and Giardi can mix and match. But the key is not to let the game get out off hand, knock Pedro out, and match our bullpen against theirs.
Having Mo for 6 out at the end of the game makes me feel significantly more confident about Pettitte in game 6. All we need to take is a take lead into the 8th inning and IT IS DONE.
I find all of this optimism to be glib and, frankly, an insult to all that is good and decent given that Shane Victorino, one of the greatest players in the game today, was hit on the hand by that thug AJ Burnett last night.
I just pray that the game will be able to recover.
[Seriously, what are the odds that they open their coverage of the game by showing the video again. I'd say 1:1.]
that Shane Victorino…he really plays the game the right way.
Chip Caray’d
Lol. One of the greatest players in the game today… really?
You could say he “fisted” that ball. Get it? Fisted? hahahahaha……..I slay me.
I found your comment rather shallow and pedantic.
You are a smelly pirate hooker.
I thought it was hilarious how many times they showed him throughout the game. He got hit; big deal.
Mahalo nui loa, Shane – nice bunt attempt on the guy that would have walked you anyways.
I saw as many replays of that HBP as I did of Johnny Damon’s double stolen base.
The Hawaiian David Eckstein.
Manu Manu the Slender?
Ah yes. The HBP that should have been called a strike.
100% agreed. A massively blown call. If you are attempting to make contact with a ball when it hits you, it’s a strike. See: Carlos Pena, September 2009.
I definitely agree that the Angels series had the “oh no please don’t make me relive series past…” and this one is more likely.
I think it would already be wrapped up if Tex and Cano were hitting. I think it would have been wrapped up last night if Tex was hitting.
Massive offense and solid bp has won games for us all year…we can win even when the starting pitcher falters. But to have giant holes in the offense and a few blunders by the BP and we’re not doing it as quick or as well.
But we can. Yankees in 6. please Mo.
The Phillies are Gritty, so we shouldnt be confident at all.
Id root for a Pie ending for a Pie type of season, but Id much rather win 11-1
and by the way as we all know the only Yankee regular without a pie in the face is El Capitan. Oh boy would that be fun.
Agreed. If someone told you the Yankees would take two of three in Philly and come home up 3-2 for Game 6 before the series started, you’d be ecstatic. So keep the chins up people!
It’s true about the optimism going around. The majority of pessimistic views I’ve had to listen to came from non-Yankee fans. A Cards fan coworker was ranting on Girardi this morning for not having a reliable fourth starter (’cause that’s his job) and it took all I had in me not to ask him how the Cardinals’ fourth starter did this postseason.
Anyway, we are going to fucking kill ‘em. Bring it!
Who’s ready for the extra-innings walk-off off of Lidge????
Ok, no I really couldn’t handle that, but it would just be fitting to end the 09 season on a walk-off. Plus that would make the Yankees the last team to walk-off in a World Series instead of some other team that I have erased from my memory.
I’d rather just bludgeon them and shut that Rollins’ up for good! (or at least for 2009)
As fun as walkoffs are, I fear for my blood pressure if Yanks find themselves needing one. So please let’s root for a nice and easy 10-2 win.
+1
I’ve seen enough of these “edge-of-my-seat_hand-on-my-heart” games. While they’re that much more satisfying when you’re on the winning side of one…the anxiety that comes with it…and the higher probability that you lose (when compared to a bludgeoning) has been too much.
Especially since I have finals this week and 3 presentations! BLAH!
I’d like a walk-off.
Would be perfect considering the season we have had.
If you’re guaranteeing it? Sure…but if there’s still a good chance the Phillies can win…I’d rather take the sure fire alternative lol
I’m with you.
screw that, i want Girardi to make sure every pitcher gets one inning for the experience, and that includes NICK SWISHER in a here-to-fore unheard of 35-2 thumping.
ps-fuck chase utley for hitting two MORE homers and ruining my fantasy. wtf with this guy?!?!
Uh, he’s good?
To me its become obvious that as maligned as the Yankee bullpen is, Charlie is playing with fire out there and unless Pedro flips back the clock to 1999 and can get through 8 or nine innings. I dont see how that bullpen can hold up on the road, in Yankee Stadium.
re: “Let’s say Utley hits one or two more HR’s and phils still lose the series. Any chance he will win the MVP?”
No way. Even the A-Rod-hating voters won’t overlook the four homers and 9 RBI Alex dropped on the Phils Wednesday night in game 6.
/Joestradamus’d
re: Fans retain optimism after Game 5 loss
The ever-misunderstood* computers and spreadsheets and basement-dwelling stat-geeks retain their optimism, too:
Baseball Prospectus’ Playoff Odds Report has the Yankees as better than 4-1 favorites.
That ties in to my optimism as a fan. Sure, it’s conceivable the Phillies will win the World Series. It’s simply not very likely.
A far superior team, in their home park, with two favorable pitching matchups, and two cracks at it. I like those odds.
(* “There’s this new-fangled OPS stat, now. I think OPS is short for operators, like GMs and managers. For example, Joe Girardi and Brian Cashman are two of the Yankees most important OPS.” — Joe Buck)
The Philly bullpen can hold up if we keep swinging at changeups that are balls. Philly pitchers do kill our pitchers in the changeup dept. Eiland not great in this department. I don’t care what the stats show-Aceves is the only decent change in the pen and CC the only decent one for the starters.
As for Gardner who I really like-K Long needs to hang out with him at today’s workout and discuss swinging at strike 1 and 2 that Pedro will throw. Gardner not like a Damon who can leave himself with only one strike to swing at. Come on Brett-be more aggressive or just lay one down for real instead of just faking it and taking a strike…..get on base and make it happen!
Robinson Cano was ordered extra batting practice today. I think a few more guys should have been there with him.
It’s like “Teixeria, Cano, Gardner, you’re staying after school.”
I would be more optimistic if i knew what “Voters love hardware” meant in regards to Jeter’s HoF voting…wtf? 7 WS rings arent enough hardware???
The yankees rock, i hate off days and life is good
Burnett didn’t fail – Girardi did.
I like the situation we’re in going back to the Bronx:
Pros:
-We’re up 3-2 and have 2 chances to win (hopefully we’ll only need 1)
-We’re adding both Posada and Matsui to the lineup.
-Mo didn’t pitch in game 5. I was worrying about all the wear and tear Joe was putting on him.
-Hughes, Aceves and Robertson all looked good on Tues night.
-Andy is the winningest pitcher in postseason history. This is nothing new for him.
-We took 2 of 3 in Philly
-We essentially took their closer (Lidge) out of the series and made the acting closer (Madson) work hard for Tues nights save. Shaky late inning relief without homefield advantage could be a real achilles heel for the Phils. Who does Manuel go to late in the game if they have a small lead? He’ll be slaughtered either way unless his decision works out. Not a choice I’d want to make.
-If by some chance they win the Phils have noviable starter for 7. It’s either Hamels who has publicly stated he can’t wait for the season to be over and stunk it up in game 3. Or Happ who hasn’t pitched more than 3ip in over a month. I’ll take CC and committee against that any day.
Cons:
-Andy isn’t getting any younger. Three days rest should be viewed with a lil apprehension. He should be on a short leash.
-Tex still isn’t hitting.
-Utley has been monstrous
-Never thought I’d say this but I think Melky’s bat will be missed at the bottom of the order in the late innings. He has been surprisingly clutch all season.
Optimism should be a no-brainer in this situation. What, just because AJ sucked, that “proves” the short-rest strategy will make us lose two more games? Get real.
We won 10 more games in a tougher division. We are a better team. Our pitching is better than theirs at this point. Our hitting is probably better, too. We have the ultimate ace-in-the-hole: Rivera. We are at home. Most importantly, we are UP 3-2.
Jeez, lose one game and the sky starts fallling. Puh-lease.