Nov
23

For Halladay, cost would include Phil or Joba

By

As Roy Halladay continues to hover above this off-season as Johan Santana did two years ago, the Blue Jays’ demands for him are coming into view. As I mentioned a few weeks ago, Alex Anthopoulous, the new Toronto GM, will have to make a splash if he ships out Halladay. He’ll need a good, young, sure bet to take Halladay’s place and set Toronto on the path to AL East competitiveness.

With that in mind, it is clear that any trade talks with the Yanks would involve the names Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes being bandied about. After all, these are two kids who can get out AL East hitters while pitching in pressure-packed stadiums in New York and Boston. What GM wouldn’t try to demand one of the two from Brian Cashman?

Yesterday, in his regular Sunday round-up in the Boston Globe, Nick Cafardo confirmed that the Jays would readily give up Halladay for Phil or Joba. He wrote:

The Yankees could easily get into the Roy Halladay hunt if they’re willing to part with Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain, which they apparently are. The one player they’d love to hold on to is Austin Jackson, their future center fielder who could keep their outfield costs low.

This is a tantalizing tidbit from Cafardo for so many reasons, and as we like to talk about rumors, talk about it we shall. First, Cafardo casually mentions that the Yankees are “apparently” willing to part with Hughes or Joba. This unsourced development is a drastic turnaround from recent years when the Yankees have not wanted to let any of their young pitchers out of their grasp, and I’m not so sure I believe it here.

As with Santana, Roy Halladay comes with one year guaranteed and the option to negotiate for more. He will be 33 on Opening Day, a good four years older than Santana was on Opening Day 2008 when he made his Mets debut, and while Halladay may be more durable and better equipped to deal with the rigors of age than Santana, the Yanks would be acquiring one year of an old pitcher for a few years of Joba or Phil. If it didn’t make sense a few years ago before we had a better sense of what Joba or Phil could do, it doesn’t make too much sense now.

Next, Cafardo’s belief that Austin Jackson is “the one player” the Yanks would love to hold on to seemingly flies in the face of conventional wisdom. While Cafardo mentions Jesus Montero in another paragraph about the Yanks’ catching prospects, I find it hard to believe that Montero would be made available over Austin Jackson. Montero has a better bat and plays one of the key up-the-middle positions. Jackson profiles as a future center fielder, but Montero ranks higher up on my the Yanks’ prospects list. I’d be far more open to moving A-Jax than I would Montero (or Hughes and Joba, for that matter).

Cafardo’s piece allows us to confirm the high price for Halladay, but anyone following the Blue Jays would know it already. I don’t believe the Yanks intend to trade Phil or Joba for Halladay, and I don’t think the team should.

  • Stryker

    If it didn’t make sense a few years ago before we had a better sense of what Joba or Phil could do, it doesn’t make too much sense now.

    i think that’s all that needs to be said about trading for roy halladay. not only do the yankees NOT need him, they also weren’t willing to trade similar pieces for a better talent just 2 years ago.

    • Lanny

      What team wouldnt need Halladay??

      You really going to say the Yankees wouldnt be better off with him in the rotation??

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        What team wouldnt need Halladay??

        The Yankees, for one. Do you know the difference between the word “want” and the word “need”, Bo/Lanny?

        You really going to say the Yankees wouldnt be better off with him in the rotation??

        That’s not what he said. At all. Don’t put words in people’s mouths.

        • Lanny

          Even you Eric would be hard pressed to say the Yankees couldnt use Halladay. But you’re also the fella who thinks that Joba and Hughes will combine for 400+ innings next yr and Mike Cameron is an all star the Yankees MUST have. So heaven help you. And reread what he said, Eric, before you run go flapping them gums.

          “i think that’s all that needs to be said about trading for roy halladay. not only do the yankees NOT need him”

          Thanks Eric.

          • Salty Buggah

            Hahahaha

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Trust me on this one, Robert Grant:

            You don’t want to play the ” Lets start bringing up old shit we’ve said and check it for accuracy and veracity” game with me. You’ll lose in a landslide.

            My opinion and intellect is universally respected. You, on the ther hand, are a laughingstock of ignorant buffoonery.

            Me >>>>> you

  • nirzhor

    missed the johnson article, but when is the last time a time send away prospects for vet and got the better part of the trade

    • Mike Pop

      Swisher ;)

      If Betemit, Nunez, and Marquez were really ‘prospects’!

      • nirzhor

        sorry i meant a blockbuster trade like Beckett(rite spelling?) it worked out best for the yankees and the marlins not the sox

        • JMK aka The Overshare

          Wait, what? You could make the argument that the Red Sox “won” the Beckett trade. Personally, I think it was pretty even. Both teams would probably make the trade even with the knowledge of hindsight.

          The Marlins got a fantastic young hitter at a prime position (though his D isn’t great and his attitude rubs many the wrong way), while the Sox got two key players that helped lead them to 2 WS titles. Lowell was basically a salary dump and he by far exceeded expectations. He was a productive player during the WS runs. Injuries have slowed him of late, but make no mistake, he was a good player. I believe Beckett is a bit overrated, but he’s no slouch and you certainly can’t say he wasn’t the ace of that staff for MANY years (Lester is now).

          Really, it’s a good deal for both teams.

          • nirzhor

            just me but u can 20+ pitchers like or better than Beckett but Ramirez has a great bat at short 2nd to no one in the game

          • Tom Zig

            not to nitpick or anything but Beckett and Lowell weren’t there in 04

          • raymagnetic

            Led them to two WS championships?

            • JMK aka The Overshare

              One. My bad. I said “helped.” You can’t say they weren’t important parts.

          • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

            It might be a win for both teams, but I think Boston would take back Hanley if they can. He is head and shoulder above the rest of the SS field.

            • JMK aka The Overshare

              Maybe. He’s an excellent hitter. Easily the top of his position. At the time there questions about him, so it wasn’t a 100% slam dunk when the trade was made. I was merely making the argument the trade isn’t a clear-cut “victory” for either side; both teams got a lot of value out of the trade.

            • AndrewYF

              I bet you ask Theo when he’s old and retired, and he would take back that trade in an instant. Remember that he didn’t make that trade, as he was wearing a gorilla suit at the time it was consummated.

              The Sox won 1 championship solely due to Beckett and Lowell. That’s indisputable. But who’s to say they don’t win 3 due to Hanley?

              Imagine if the Yankees traded Jeter for, say, Maddux in ’95, and they won in ’96 solely due to a stellar playoff performance by Maddux, but never again until 2009. Would people be saying it was a good trade?

              • Lanny

                Because Hanley has carried the Marlins to what exactly?

                You win with frontline aces. Like Beckett.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  Your inability to think logically is baffling.

                • Lanny

                  Because SS are more important than aces like Beckett.

                  Maybe you should realize why this team won this yr and didnt win with A Rod all those yrs, Eric.

                  Starting pitching. Aces.

                • Salty Buggah

                  Oh man, old Lanny has returned.

                • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

                  [golf clap]

                  Bravo. Splendid showing. You’ve surpassed even yourself in a logic fail.

                • Lanny

                  I guess some guys dont watch the post season. Even this October didnt clue u fellas in???

                • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

                  I believe Lanny/Bo’s arguement would be considered a strawman arguement, correct?

                • Salty Buggah

                  Lanny, we agree that good pitching is needed. But everything else you are saying (or arent understand) isnt something we can agree with.

                • Lanny

                  I think every Sox fan will take the 07 title over the thought of Hanleys stats. Theos genius rep would certainly take a hit without Beckett carrying them to that title.

                • Mr.Jigginz

                  Actually,I believe Theo was on his hiatus when that trade happened…

              • andrew

                The Sox won 1 championship solely due to Beckett and Lowell. That’s indisputable. But who’s to say they don’t win 3 due to Hanley?

                I’m guessing if you asked Sox fans if they’d rather have one title for sure, or maybe 3, but maybe 0, they’d take that one title. I don’t know though.

                • AndrewYF

                  But that’s exactly it. Ask any Yankee fan in 1995 if they could have one title for sure in 1996, or maybe 3, they would take the title right then.

                  But they got 4, somewhat because they didn’t trade away a franchise shortstop.

  • Mike Pop

    A big problem with this article seems to be that Cafardo makes it seem like the Yankees are more willing to give up one of their key ‘studs’ rather than giving up Austin Jackson…. I don’t know if I buy that.

    I understand that giving one of them up gets you another pitcher and that is why you might want to hang onto the outfielder. But still, they’d be more willing to give up Joba or Hughes is how he makes it sound. That’s why i just can’t buy this. Maybe because A-Jax couldn’t be the centerpiece of the trade is why he puts it that way?

    I don’t buy it. I would think trading for Halladay would mean no more Pettitte. Because you could definitely afford to go with Joba and Phil at the 4 and 5 spots with a top 3 of Roy, CC, and A.J. Not that you couldn’t with Pettitte in there which is what they do hopefully but I’m already getting tired of all these Halladay to the Yankees rumors.

    Note – not saying to stop reporting them because I’m not Bo.

    • Stryker

      I would think trading for Halladay would mean no more Pettitte. Because you could definitely afford to go with Joba and Phil at the 4 and 5 spots with a top 3 of Roy, CC, and A.J.

      i would assume one joba/phil would be gone, meaning they would have to look to someone else to fill that spot.

      • Stryker

        *one of

        • Mike Pop

          You’re making me look stupid. Panda jerk.

          • Steve H

            You’re making me look stupid.

            Don’t worry Pop, you’re doing just fine by yourself.

  • Frank

    I love Halladay, but if I have to trade Hughes or Joba, plus other top prospects, I’d rather do so for Josh Johnson or King Felix, both of whom are much younger and would be paid significantly less than the 15-$20M per year Halladay would demand.

    • nirzhor

      king felix would take much much more

    • TheLastClown

      Dude, Felix is a Yankee after 2011, when he’s at the ripe old age of 26…the Mayans predicted it.

      Felix/CC/AJ/Joba/Hughes for 2012.

      End of the world bitches!

  • TheLastClown

    This is a tantalizing tidbit…This unsourced developed (sic) is a drastic turnaround from recent years when the Yankees have not wanted to let any of their young pitchers out of their grasp, and I’m not so sure I believe it here.

    I don’t believe it at all. There are no mentioned sources, and we haven’t heard anything ‘apparent’ to this effect out of the Yankees FO.

    No on Halladay. I’m a little more inclined to think about the afore-posted Josh Johnson scenario, but only a very little more.

    The point is that we’ve hung on to Hughes & Joba this long, so why, right on the precipice of having them both in the rotation, limit-free, for a full season, do we now entertain the idea of trading them away?

    They are primed to be the best 4/5 starters in all of baseball. They could both be legit 1/2 guys. I want them to have every opportunity to fail at that job. If they fail, we have bullpen cornerstones for years to come, and we can entertain all kinds of Cliff Lee & King Felix in the next two years. I think Lee is more apt to sign an extension that Felix. How could the King really not entertain hitting FA before his age TWENTY-SIX season?

    If we’ve got CC/AJ/Andy/Joba/Hughes for next year, with IPK, Z-Mac, Nova etc for depth, we have very strong starting pitching. It’s in our best interests, as fans, to not want to further fortify an already strong position by weakening our farm, trading away one of our only two legit, close-to-MLB-ready positional prospects. While I’m not super high on AJax, I think he could be an upgrade from Gardbrera, and that’s all we need. A league-average bat and good D in CF would do wonders.

    I don’t need to detail why we don’t want to lose Montero. Again, this guy needs to be given a chance to fail as a catcher. If he succeeds as the backstop, he’s more valuable to this team than Johnson OR Halladay.

  • Ed

    Out of Hughes, Joba, Montero, and Jackson, the easiest to replace is Jackson. There are always lots of outfielders available on the free agent & trade markets. There’s rarely enough pitching to meet the demand for pitchers. And catchers that can hit like Montero are really, really rare. Plus Jackson has the lowest upside out of that group of players.

    Jackson should be the guy of that group the Yankees are most willing to part with, not the least willing.

    • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

      You know… I agree that I don’t want to trade the pitchers… But I think people tend to underestimate the value of a good centerfielder. Quickly, off the top of your head, name 5 awesome center fielders. It’s not as easy as you’d think, right? It’s really a pretty shallow position; there’s a lot of value in having a top centerfielder.

      Again, though, as I’ve said a few times today… I’d rather not trade away the prospects.

      • The Scout

        And as the Yankees showed this year, you can win without a top centerfielder — if you have aces at the top of your rotation.

        • Tom Zig

          and a mythical being in the bullpen

      • Alex S

        Sizemore, Hamilton, BJ, kemp…..really can’t think of anyone else

        • Stryker

          does mike cameron count?

        • Charlie

          and BJ, sizemore and hamilton all had shitty 09s

        • JMK aka The Overshare

          Andrew McCutchen, Dexter Fowler, Adam Jones, Franklin Gutierrez? They’re a tier lower than the ones you’ve mentioned, though. Now at least. They could all be very, very good (with Jones having the most potential, I’d think).

      • pete

        AJax is supposed to be an “awesome” center fielder? Look I like the guy and want him to succeed, but he’s probably a .290/.340/.400 hitter in the majors, with maybe .300/.350/.450 upside. Add solid defense and speed and he’s hopefully an overall average major league centerfielder.

        • Charlie

          lets say he gets to .295/345/425, halfway btwn those. Like you said, add solid defense and speed.. that is an above average center fielder

          • JMK aka The Overshare

            Yep.

          • Steve H

            And add in that he’s cost controlled for years.

            • raymagnetic

              That’s pretty much this season of Melky Cabrera.

              • Steve H

                Yeah, and having young cheap cost controlled starters on WS winning teams allows you to spend more at other positions, like $423 million to fill some holes.

              • billbybob

                Yeah but AJAX is black, so he is way more energetic than those lazy Dominicans.

                • AndrewYF

                  But, and this is the sticking point, he’s much harder to control.

        • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          “Look I like the guy and want him to succeed, but he’s probably a .290/.340/.400 hitter in the majors, with maybe .300/.350/.450 upside. Add solid defense and speed and he’s hopefully an overall average major league centerfielder.”

          Actually… A .300/.350/.450 hitter would have been a top offensive center fielder in 2009. Add solid defense and speed and that’s one of the better center fielders in MLB in 2009.

          I’m not saying A-Jax is going to be that good or that he’ll ever be one of the best center fielders in baseball, but I do think you’re losing some perspective. Center field just happens to be a shallow position right now – much more shallow than you seem to recognize.

  • JSquared

    I would love to trade for Halladay, but if it’s going to cost Atleast Joba or Hughes and others, i’d look into Felix a little harder.

  • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

    I don’t want the Yankees to trade for either Halladay or Johnson if it’s going to mean losing the prospects I think it’ll mean losing.

    ::Dusts off old “Save the Big Three” t-shirt::

    • JMK aka The Overshare

      So you aren’t onboard with signing Dusty Baker as the pitching coach?

    • Tom Zig

      In 2010 we spell redemption…I-P-K!

      • TheLastClown

        I was at the game in Anaheim in which he pitched his only ’09 inning.

        It was the 8th, so I was predictably lubricated, and I started flipping out in the stands. I was of the mind at the time that IPK could be our fourth starter in the playoffs rather than Gaudin, so I thought that this was a tune-up, and maybe he’d get a start or two coming down the stretch.

        But literally, I was freaking. I’d been going to a good number of Angels games, so the people in the section knew the Yankee’s fan with the voice much too loud for his body, but they were just slack-jawed at my enthusiasm.

        I was all- “Aneurysm? What aneurysm!?! Big Three back in action! This is it folks! This is why the Yankees are done losing to you Angels!! Homegrown! Homegrown!! USC!!”

        And on & on & on. Anyway…I agree with you, Meester Zeeg!

        • Lanny

          Dont hold your breath waiting for Kennedy to become an all star.

          Maybe at Scranton.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Bo/Lanny: 8974
            Strawman: 0

            • Lanny

              Don’t lose that faith thinking Kennedy will be a monster in the rotation, Eric.

              • Jack

                When did he ever say that he thought he’d be a monster, Robert?

  • The Scout

    Reread the Cafardo piece. It does not say the Blue Jays would give up Halladay for Hughes or Chamberalin. All it says is that including one of them would put the Yankees “in the hunt” — whatever that means. And that’s not news. What remains to be seen is what else the Blue Jays would want as part of the package, and that in turn hinges on how much of a market they can drum up.

    What the Blue Jays want is to inspire in either the Yankees or the Red Sox a mortal terror at the thought that Halladay could end up with their arch rival. Even better for Toronto if Lackey lands elsewhere first, because then the loser in the Halladay sweepstakes would have no way to offset his acquisition by the enemy.

    Alas for Toronto, neither the Yankees or Red Sox under current management appear likely to take the bait. Although either might sufffer in 2010 were Halladay to end up on the other side of the war, each expects there will be other fine and younger pitchers available next year or the year after.

    • Stryker

      What the Blue Jays want is to inspire in either the Yankees or the Red Sox a mortal terror at the thought that Halladay could end up with their arch rival. Even better for Toronto if Lackey lands elsewhere first, because then the loser in the Halladay sweepstakes would have no way to offset his acquisition by the enemy.

      you may have a point here, but if either team is making moves for the sake of keeping players away from a rival, that’s no way to run a ball club. you’d like to think the yankees or red sox are inquiring about/acquiring players for the sake of possibly improving their respective teams..i don’t think roy halladay necessarily improves the yankees.

    • Reggie C.

      Yeah. The first thing Anthopolous would do if Cash offered Joba Chamberlain + B/C tier prospects would be call Theo Epstein and ask him to top the Yankees offer. I dont think Theo bites b/c it’d likely cost him a similar arm (Buchholz) + a some future OF depth (Kalish or Reddick).

  • Stuckey

    Here’s a question. Who’s going to be a better pitcher overall the next four years, Halladay or Chamberlain/Hughes?

    Yankee fans always talk a big game about waiting until a pitcher is a FA and making their move them. But won’t both of these pitchers be free agents themselves in 4 years, when they’ll both be in their late twenties?

    If Yankee fans are going to play the only acquire FAs game, then we can’t think of holding onto young players to control their rights for the next 10 years.

    That point becomes moot.

    You have to ask who is going to give you the most production the next 4 years and chance to win a World Series, and START there.

    Perhaps the Yanks should consider “trading in” one of Hughes/Chamerlain for 4 years, and let them season on the Blue Jays dime, while Halladay gives them immediate Cy Young potential.

    You can always “re-acquire” Chamberlain/Hughes down the line. If they develop as as hope, they’ll be too cost-prohibitive for Jays to keep.

    • Will

      So trade them away now for an expensive pitcher only to then pay for them to come back?

      Where’s the sense in that?

      • Stuckey

        Just paying devil’s advocate, but think of it as the exact opposite of the Marlins approach.

        Use your promising prospects to acquire proven stars at relatively bargain rates in trade value (Halladay is NOT going to cost what we would have last season). History and math proves that prospects you give up probably won’t develop into stars themselves, and certainly if some do, not all will.

        The MLB system that now exists makes the Yankees legit players for ANY free agent that hits the market, if for no other reason every agent wants them involved.

        And most high end stars will eventually hit free agency because more than half the league can’t afford superstars.

        So if and when a prospect the Yanks do trade away develops, they’ll always be players to reacquire them in free agency.

        The downside is the theoretically high end performance you could get from them in their 4 or so years before free agency.

        I’m just not sure how much a priority that is for the Yankees, particularly with what’s a LEGIT issue of a Rivera/Jeter/Posada/A-Rod window with a very short shelf-life.

        If Chamberlain or Hughes can approximate Roy Halladay for the next 3 years, that’s one thing, but can they?

        • TheLastClown

          If Chamberlain or Hughes can approximate Roy Halladay for the next 3 years, that’s one thing, but can they?

          Doesn’t matter. What matters is if Chamberlain and Hughes, together can approximate *or outperform* Roy Halladay, while keeping AJax & Montero.

          This leaves your young studs to develop while allowing the payroll flexibility to pursue other big-ticket guys in the future.

          • Stuckey

            “Doesn’t matter. What matters is if Chamberlain and Hughes, together can approximate *or outperform* Roy Halladay, while keeping AJax & Montero.”

            Not sure I understand why in this equation Chamberlain and Hughes production is being combined.

            If you’re doing that, don’t you have to include Roy Hallaway in the mix? Meaning what’s greater the next four years?

            Halladay + Hughes vs. Chamberlain + Hughes + Ajax.

            I’m not sure the former might not be the safer bet and more conducive to 28 through 30 by 2012-13.

            • TheLastClown

              See I disagree. I think that AJax is more integral to our chances, being that we don’t have league-average offense & good D at the same time in CF on our current roster.

              Also, there’s no guarantee that Hughes+AJax gets the job done. There’s likely to be some more of our depthy pitchers included in the deal, which will hurt our starting strength.

              Also, I think having huge commitments to CC & Doc & *to a lesser extent* AJ will make us too inflexible to target Felix for 2012. And Felix for 2012 is the move that has to be made. Our starting pitching is really good right now, so while I don’t think you’re way off base, I think you’re off just enough.

              Your plan sets us up well for 28, maybe 29. With our young guns & the flexibility to add young studs, not old ones, we’re set up for as many championships as our little hearts can stand.

        • Will

          I’m glad youre not the GM.
          First of all, giving up Hughes of Joba is the farthest thing from a “Bargin” trade value. If that was the asking price at the trade deadline and it didnt happen, then its clearly not a bargin. Because if it was, Hallday would have been in pinstripes. Advocating giving them up for him now is absurd, especially with the argument you’re using.

          Secondly, the upside on both Joba and Hughes over the next 4 years outweighs what Halladay could do for 1 year here. Because realistically the only sure thing about this potential trade is that we get Roy for 1 year, anything after that is all speculation and more money.

          Holding on two two promising young pitchers like Joba and Hughes also cuts down payroll so that you dont have to go buy more starters. Use the payroll for things you need, not for something you desire.

          I think a lot of people would question Cashmans judgement and vision if a trade like this actually went through.

          • Stuckey

            What I meant by bargain is a few years ago a Cy Young candidate would cost you a Chamberlain/Hughes AND a LOT more. Look at what Teixeira generated a few years ago.

            I think Toronto needs a potential rotation stud to save face, but they aren’t going to get a haul of top prospects.

            If “bargain” doesn’t suit you, you can use whatever word does.

            “Because realistically the only sure thing about this potential trade is that we get Roy for 1 year, anything after that is all speculation and more money.”

            I find this logic dubious. For one I think it’s assumed Halladay would be signed to an ext. before the trade was completed, for another it assumes some other team won’t trade for him and use that same window.

            The market the the market. If Halladay is available, then you have to consider his worth. That he’ll theoretically be available as a pure free agent after the 2010 season is complete is speculation as well.

            “Holding on two two promising young pitchers like Joba and Hughes also cuts down payroll so that you dont have to go buy more starters.”

            Would you need to if you had Holliday/Sabathia/Burnett/Joba OR Hughes?

            5th starters don’t make or break a post-season berth and they’re even MORE irrelevant in the post-season.

            “Use the payroll for things you need, not for something you desire.”

            Define “need”.

            I think Sabathia/Halladay make you pretty formidable in the post-season the next 3 years.

            Not sure I can distinguish between a “desire” and a “need” if the x factor is two legit Cy Young aces in the post-season…

            • Will

              In my opinion, the needs of the team are not for another ace pitcher. We have that and it worked fine. We won a World Series without Halladay. I think the goal of the team should be to get younger. While I know Halladay is not old, he’s in his prime, you would be giving up two extremely important young arms that you would build a rotation around for the long term future.

              I think you would need to spend money on other positions. Even if we bring back Damon and/or Matsui for another year, eventually youre going to need new outfielders. Same thing with the infield. While the formula worked this year of buying big name FAs, the team still needs to get younger. You can’t get younger when you trade away the farm.

        • Mike HC

          The question is not whether you want Halladay or Joba (plus others) for the next four years, but the question is would you rather have Joba + big name free agent we can sign with the money we would have used on Halladay or just Halladay for the next four years. It is a legitimate question, but you have to take into account the money we would have spent on Halladay would be spent elsewhere, while still having Joba. And that does not even take into account the other guys we would have to trade.

    • TheLastClown

      If Yankee fans are going to play the only acquire FAs game, then we can’t think of holding onto young players to control their rights for the next 10 years.

      You’re missing half of the equation.

      The reason to not acquire, say, Santana *or JJ or Doc* is not simply a “Let’s only go the FA route” mentality.

      It’s a “Let’s get comparable production from FA’s who cost only money rather then spend money AND prospects.

      To use the Santana example, CC+Hughes+Melky *or whatever permutation of the deal you want to use* >>>>> just Santana.

      Just like Joba+Hughes+Montero+AJax+FA acquisitions next year *think Lee or maybe even Halladay* >>>>>>>>>>>> Just Halladay or JJ + whatever doesn’t get used up in the trade.

      But to answer your first hypothetical, there’s a great chance that the tandem of Joba & Hughes, together, will outperform Roy Halladay in the next four year

      • Stuckey

        “It’s a “Let’s get comparable production from FA’s who cost only money rather then spend money AND prospects.”

        That’s a legit argument if there IS a FA that can give you comparable production to Halladay.

        “To use the Santana example, CC+Hughes+Melky *or whatever permutation of the deal you want to use* >>>>> just Santana.”

        Perfectly understood, but it does assume the coveted player will eventually make it to free agency.

        Cashman either knew something we all didn’t and/or gambled and won with Sabathia. But if Milwaukee wasn’t in the race didn’t stay in it during his walk year, things could theoretically be different right now.

        I’m not saying the idea that not only might Halladay or Lee NOT make it to free agency, but they would wind up on a rival should dictate your thinking, but the concept can’t be discounted either.

        And btw, I’m not advocating including Montero (who looks like someone who could start contributing as an above average offensive player his first year), nor advocating trading Chamberlain and Hughes.

        But as much as I like both and like the homegrown notion, I can’t say I’m convinced either will develop as we all hope.

        I’m becoming increasingly convinced you do what you can to take advantage of what’s likely a 3 year window at this point.

        • TheLastClown

          No, there’s no guarantee that Lee or Doc make FA.

          But you’ve got Beckett & Webb in the same FA class, so next year should see the Yanks with a shot to acquire a top of the rotation starter.

          I don’t think Cash gambled & won. I think it was pretty clear that CC, an elite pitcher entering his prime, would want to see what the FA market could bring him in terms of top-dollar.

          With the coveting of Halladay & Lee, I think there’s a good chance they’ll want one more big payday after next year.

          I know you didn’t advocate trading Joba & Hughes, or Montero, but out of Joba/Hughes/Montero/AJax, you’d likely have to part with two of them for Doc because of intra-divisional concerns, and definitely at least two of them for JJ.

          This ‘window’ you speak of is a projected decline for the likes of Jeter/A-Rod/Posada correct? Why would you try to capitalize on this ‘window’ by trading away at least two pieces of the glass that make up the next ‘window’ through which we can see a championship club? *Excuse the metaphor*

          The bats are more of a problem in the future than the pitching, IMO, so we need to hang on to AJax & Montero.

          I think you’re going to be surprised, pleasantly, but 2010 Joba/Hughes.

    • Stryker

      You can always “re-acquire” Chamberlain/Hughes down the line. If they develop as as hope, they’ll be too cost-prohibitive for Jays to keep.

      who knows what the jays’ plans would be? how do you know it would be easy to re-acquire chamberlain/hughes?

      like i said before, if the yankees refused to trade the two with a less talented team, why would they do so now?

      • Lanny

        It would be easy to reacquire either one when they FA. When all it takes is money.

        And they refused to trade them before but maybe it was because they didnt like Santana. Not because they wouldnt part with either guy.

  • pete

    Toronto understands that for it to have any real shot at competitiveness in the AL East, it not only needs to improve a lot, but one or more of the Yankees, Red Sox, and Rays needs to get worse. Add in the fact that the orioles have a frighteningly talented young, mlb-minimum core, and it becomes a lot of work. The yankees and red sox know this, and aren’t going to take the bait because, quite simply, they know that the other won’t either. No good GM has a plan that is reactionary. It’s part of a 5-10 year plan wherein the goal is, essentially, to consistently win around 100 games and be equipped for the postseason. Halladay is not part of that plan. Joba, Phil, and Montero are.

    I just had a scary thought – might the Orioles go after Lackey? They have the payroll flexibility, one would think, and him + Matusz + Tillman + Guthrie could be a good rotation for years to come, and Markakis, Jones, Roberts, and Weiters make up a strong offensive (and defensive – I personally think that Jones will improve a lot in the next couple years on D, same w/ weiters) core. That would all but eliminate the chances of any AL East team taking home the wild card, since the level of competition would be so insane. It’d be crazy fun and exciting to watch all year though, with that much talent concentrated in one division.

    • Lanny

      That assumes that those young kids will pan out. because right now they are just hope and promise.

      • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

        Well the Yankees think they could pan out and so do the Blue Jays, otherwise they’d A) have no vlaue to the Yankees and B) have no value to the Blue Jays.

        • Lanny

          Talking about the Orioles young starters. Work with me here bud. It is not hard to follow along and read whats posted no matter how much you want to take shots at someone.

          • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

            You’re right, it was my bad. Although the comment about the Yankees’ starters still stands

  • Steve H

    If it didn’t make sense a few years ago before we had a better sense of what Joba or Phil could do, it doesn’t make too much sense now.

    Yes, and let’s face it, a few years ago they were in a title “drought”. They are much less desperate for a “win now” move than they were a few years ago, when they didn’t make a similar trade. For this Yankees team Josh Johnson>>>>>Halladay. They aren’t trying to win the 2010 World Series, they are trying to win the 2010-2020 World Series. The 2003 Marlins gave up Adrian Gonzalez for felon Ugie Urbina because they were in win now and blow it up later mode. The Yankees aren’t, and hopefully never will be.

  • raymagnetic

    Minnesota got crap for Santana. I don’t believe any major leaguers need to go back to Toronto in a trade for Halladay.

    I also don’t believe the Yankees have to trade their best minor league prospect. (Montero)

    Cashman can simply hang up the phone if the names Hughes/Montero/Chamberlain come out of the young bucks mouth in Toronto.

    • Steve H

      You think Toronto may try learning a lesson from Minnesota though?

      • raymagnetic

        They could try to learn a lesson all they want.

        Cashman likely has no interest in trading any of his young major league pitchers for the right to sign Halladay to a 20 mil per year contract.

    • AndrewYF

      Let’s think of a package that estimates the one Minnesota got.

      Gomez, Guerra, Humber, Mulvey

      Gardner, Betances, Nova, DeLaRosa

      Let’s do it.

      • Lanny

        Keep dreamin’ on that one.

        I’m sure that the new Tor GM would love to tell people he got Brett Gardner for Roy Halladay.

      • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

        Ha if only that were possible. Damn what a deal that would be.

  • Lanny

    If all it takes is Joba to get someone like Halladay they should make the trade in a heartbeat.

    The opportunity to put Halladay with CC and AJ should not be missed.

    But it all comes down to whether the Yankees think Joba/Hughes are a frontline starters.

    • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

      They do.

    • Reggie C.

      I’d execute a Halladay trade too under these 2 strict condition precedents:

      1. Halladay accepts a 4 year extension. NO extension, no executed trade.

      2. Toronto accepts a reduced package where we lose only 1 of Joba Chamberlain or Phil Hughes, followed by a number of B/C tier prospects.

      Halladay’s next 4 years > Joba/ PHil’s next 4. (jmho)

      • Lanny

        I think a Joba fronted package gets it done pretty easily. Because not many teams can do both. The prospects and giving Halladay what he wants.

        I think anyone who says not to trade for Halladay has fallen way too in love with prospects and Joba especially.

        • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

          I think anybody who wants to trade Joba and other minor prospects for Halladay has fallen way too in love with pitchers in their mid 30′s and Halladay especially.

          • Lanny

            Since when is 33 the mid 30′s?

            You really think Joba will be half as good as Halladay the next 4 yrs?

            It’s the same guys who think that Eric Duncan will still be a starting 3b in the big leagues and Kennedy will have a Mussina type career.

            Don’t fall in love prospects.

            • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

              You really think Joba will be half as good as Halladay the next 4 yrs?

              The next four years? Probably not.

              Over the rest of his career, compaared to the rest of Halladay’s career? Yes.

              Since when is 33 the mid 30’s?

              A four year deal would be up until he turns 37. That’s late 30′s. 33 is early to mid.

              It’s the same guys who think that Eric Duncan will still be a starting 3b in the big leagues and Kennedy will have a Mussina type career.

              …No?

              • Salty Buggah

                You dont think Joba will be even half as good as Halladay? Because I sure think so considering Halladay will decline will Joba will progress.

                • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

                  You’re right, my bad. I was thinking of it as “as good” as Halladay. Half as good, definitely. Probably more than half as good.

                • Salty Buggah

                  I know thats what you meant. I just wanted to point that out so Lanny doesnt take what you said the wrong way, which he already did below.

              • Lanny

                So u think Halladay will be better the next 4 yrs and yet you still wouldnt trade Joba?

                Makes sense.

                You also have to remember that the farm system should be/will be turning out high level pitching talent to replace people like Joba. You all make it seem like these two are once in a lifetime pitchers and wont be replaced. This is why you have a farm system that runs at a high level isnt it?

                • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

                  If farm systems consistently pump out young Ace pitchers, why are any pitchers ever traded at all?

                  The NEXT four years, Lanny/Bo. A career is > 4 years.

                • Salty Buggah

                  First: “Don’t fall in love prospects.

                  Then: “the farm system should be/will be turning out high level pitching talent to replace people like Joba.”

                  I dont think we have anyone as good as Joba in our system. So, why place our hopes on the farm system producing a guy like Joba down the road when WE ALREADY HAVE JOBA.

                • Salty Buggah

                  Also, if you think our system will produce aces, why trade for Halladay? Might as well wait for them and they’ll be way cheaper and more valuable.

                • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

                  Yeah, but with Halladay we can win within the four year timeslot we have him, assuming he’s not injured. Obviously that’s more important than the future.

            • Salty Buggah

              Who says we get Halladay for 4 years? And you know, pitchers start declining at around that age.

              And yes, most of us think Joba will be great.

        • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

          Uhh what?

          Thinking about future needs is loving prospects too much?
          Why the hell do you think Toronto wants prospects in the first place? To make every team but their own better?

          You severely underrate prospects but apparently you can easily grasp that other teams find them very valuable.

          • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

            +1

          • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

            But actually I’m glad you underrate prospects. Because whatever you say the opposite happens besides thinking they lose every day, that they do occasionally.

            Now if Lanny doubts them it’s a good bet all of them are going to reach their ceilings.

            • Lanny

              In the minds of some here the ceiling for Joba is 5 Cy Youngs. So yea I guess I think realistically.

              • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

                Uhm Lanny, you were Bo when you said that. Just saying in case you mixed up you’re pen names.

                Anyways feel free to link the person who said that. Besides you of course.

              • Salty Buggah

                You know what, the CEILING, which is the best possible scenario, for Joba is 5 Cy Youngs because he has that type of talent and upside. Will he get become that dominant of a pitcher? Probably not. But he CAN be that good. Understand what we mean when we say ceiling.

                • Lanny

                  The key words are ‘can be’.

                  And like I said ten times here. if the Yankees feel he is they won’t think about moving him. But if they have any doubts nows the time.

                  But if you really think his ceiling is 5 Cy Youngs you’re obviously not realistic. Maybe 5 rolaids relievers awards.

                • Salty Buggah

                  Ceiling does mean CAN BE!!! And he CAN BE. He might not be but HE CAN BE.

                  And while you said that 10 times, we’ve all said it a million times that the Yankees obviously do think he can be!

                  Jeez, listen to some people. Dont make the same tired argument every freakin time.

                • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

                  Clearly you’re the one not listening. Sure the Yankees think he can be, but Halladay is better right now, which means he’ll be better in the future. So we should trade for him, then to stockpile our rotation with Aces we should trade Montero and Hughes for Johnson. Becasue Aces are more important than potentially great young catchers and peole who haven’t actually done something.

  • chriso

    Who is Nick Cafardo, and who are his sources?
    I mean, I’m not surprised to hear that the Blue Jays would WANT Joba or Hughes–of course they would–but has someone within the BlueJays organization actually told Cafardo something?

    Now, as to whether, or not, trading away Joba or Hughes in a deal for Halladay makes sense, my vote is “No, it wouldn’t make any sense at all.”

    1) The Yankees do not NEED Halladay. They’ve got a #1 pitcher already.
    2) Halladay is, undoubtedly, a great pitcher. But I just don’t believe that ANY 33 year-old pitcher is worth great young talent AND $100mil (or whatever it would cost in terms of dollars). Brian Cashman recognized this when Santana was on the market two years ago. I’m sure he hasn’t “unrecognized” it since then.
    3)John Lackey isn’t as good as Halladay, but he’s a free agent and available for just money. It would make much more sense for the Yanks to give $80mil to Lackey over the next five years than to give Halladay $100mil (and the Blue Jays a boatload of young talent, to boot). A rotation of CC-Lackey-
    Burnett-Pettitte-Hughes would probably be the best rotation the Yanks have ever had–and they’d still have their top young prospects.
    4)Young pitching talent has always been the most valuable commodity in the game. In principle, you shouldn’t give it up for guys in their mid-30–especially when you’re not desperate!!
    5)Folks should remember (including Mr. Cafardo), that the blueJays wouldn’t accept Joba for Doc. It would be Joba/Montero/+ for Doc.
    6)If the yanks decide not to sign Lackey, or Ben Sheets, and do a trade, they ought to puruse a trade for a young stud pitcher. Josh Johnson fits that bill. For a YOUNG pitcher, it might make sense to trade away Joba or Phil.

    • Lanny

      WHy wouldnt any team especially the Yankees need Halladay???

      Why wouldnt they want to assemble as many frontline aces as they can? Doesnt great starting pitching lead to winning and titles? Did you not learn the lessons of the past decade and especially this yr?

      Wouldnt a rotation of CC-Halladay-Aj-Pettitte be virtually invincible?

      • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

        NEED, Lanny/Bo. Not want. NEED.

        We don’t NEED Halladay because we have an Ace. We WANT Halladay, yes, but not if we have to give up one of our young starters that have the potential to be Aces for many years. WE don’t NEED to trade them, so we won’t. We’ve already proven we could win w/o Halladay.

        • Lanny

          Again. What team doesnt NEED another ace??

          Isnt the goal to assemble as many as you can?

          Or do you honestly think teams are built with slotting pitching in mind???

          • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

            Heh. Maybe we’re approaching this wrong.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury
            Read it.

          • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)
          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            NO. the goal is NOT to assemble as many aces as possible. It’s to build an organization capable of winning a WS every single year.

            There is a difference, no matter how many times you
            stupidly try to ignore it.

            • Salty Buggah

              Lanny Lanny is my name.
              Ignoring things is my game.

              • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

                You just don’t understand our genius.

            • Lanny

              Well doesnt assembling the best pitching staff equate to winning titles????

              Or havent you been paying attention the past decade Eric?

              And please dont ever say that the Yankees getting another high priced player would ever preclude them from doing anything else. These arent the Brewers.

      • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

        Why can’t you grasp that a luxury =/= a need?
        Do you know what is a need? A good farm system for producing quality players and using the surplus for trade chips. But apparently hanging on to prospects is stupid because to you they are all instant busts so of course logically we should give teams our instant busts for one of the best pitchers in the game. That makes sense.

        • Lanny

          Why cant you grasp the fact that every team needs great pitching?

          Great starting pitching IS NOT A LUXURY.

          You can never have enough. I feel for you if you think that assembling great starters is a luxury. Thats how you end up with Wrights and Pavanos and Ponsons and Livians.

          • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

            But we don’t have Wrights, Pavanos, Ponsons or Livians. We have CC, A.J., Andy, and two up and coming young pitchers with big potential. Halladay would be nice. But we’ve already proven we could win w/o him.

          • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

            Cool. We agree. You can’t have enough starting pitching. I know we hated Mitre pitching every 5th day when he did.

            So how does trading away at least 2 young cost effective starters with high upsides of starting pitching away for one great starter albeit expensive in both monetary terms and prospect-wise?

            Getting Halladay is a LUXURY IF the Yankees were fortunate enough to have a deep farm system where it would not hurt. But alas, they don’t. So it’s smarter to keep more valuable pieces of pitching for us.

            If you want great starting pitching, Bo, wait a year or two.
            Even if Joba./Hughes bust there’s still multiple great options in the market in the coming years.

            • Lanny

              Who says anything about them trading both guys???

              If you have a shot to get a legit ace like Halladay you have to pursue it. It costs to get. And most likely they’d have to lose one of Joba and Hughes for the right to have a rotation that would be far and away the best in the league.

              So even though most of you are in love with Joba and think he will be in Cooperstown someday maybe the Yankees FO thinks hes destined for the pen or not a frontline guy.

              • Salty Buggah

                “maybe the Yankees FO thinks hes destined for the pen or not a frontline guy.”

                BUT they dont.

                • Lanny

                  How do u know what they think?

                  Are u in the organizational meetings?

                  You saw what they thought of his starting on October didnt you? Where did he end up?

                • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

                  Yeah! Forget that Cashman actually said that both Joba and Hughes were starters! Cashman’s a big fat liar!

                • Lanny

                  And why in the world wouldnt Cashman say that?

                  Wouldnt it kill their trade value if he didnt say that?

                  Come on Rocky.

                • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

                  Singing

                  Cashman’s a liar! Cashman’s a liar!

              • Jack

                maybe the Yankees FO thinks hes destined for the pen or not a frontline guy.

                What has the Yankees FO ever done or said to make you believe that they don’t think he can be a frontline guy?

              • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

                I’m sure Cashman thinks Joba is a starter.
                Remember 2008 and those 3 games after the ASB where Joba just wrecked everyone? That’s his potential, and he barely attained it. Give him time he’ll be a good starter.

                I’d be all for getting a legit ace but he has to be young. Like King Felix. Like Josh Johnson. Trading Joba and/or Hughes might be worth it for them. Not for Halladay.

                And if the Yankees give Halladay the Johan Santana treatment they can wait one more year to get better starters.

                Halladay just isn’t the answer.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Bo/Lanny: 67,528,538
            Strawman: 0

            • Salty Buggah

              That’s the count for this thread alone.

            • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

              Betwen you and me, I’m finding it difficult to replicate Lanny’s arguements effectively. They’re not backed up by ANY shred of logic. I don’t know how he does it.

              • Lanny

                I’ll make it real simple for Rocky because the basics seem to escape you.

                Every team needs great starting pitching.

                The Yankees should def look into Halladay to add to their rotation.

                Joba isn’t in Halladays league and shouldnt stop a trade from happening.

                Is that so hard???

                • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

                  No, your logic is brilliant!

                  Thank you!

                  We play for now! THE FUTURE IS NOT IMPORTANT!!!!!

                • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

                  Every team needs great starting pitching.

                  The Yankees should def look into Halladay should look into Josh Johnson, King Felix or other trade-able young effective starters to add to their rotation if they want too.

                  Fixed.

                • Lanny

                  And I’m sure they’ll be in on Johnson and Felix like they should.

                  Or should they not because that would be a luxury?????

                • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

                  I say we trade Swisher (he’s a bad fielder, my eyes told me so) and Joba for Felix. Not good enough? Throw in the Dominican second baseman, the lazy-ass.

                • Lanny

                  Great response Rocky. I guess once your out of baseball opinions you resort to lame jokes.

                • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

                  I’m just like you! I even have two names, Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster), and Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now.

                  We’re like, twins or something!

  • duncand_94

    I would like to have Halladay on the yankees but not at the exspense of giveing up the young guns not even 1 of them

  • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

    Hey guys, we should trade Joba for Halladay. Because if we don’t get him, the Red Sox, who have a better collection of Aces than us, will win the division when both Joba and Hughes play like shit and Halladay wins the Cy Youg. And then you will bow down to ME!!! For I WILL BE RIGHT!!!

    • Lanny

      If you don’t think a rotation of Halladay-Beckett-Lester isn’t the best in the league and would make them a favorite for the WS you’re kidding yourself.

      They should have blown Toronto away last summer for him.

      But then again you’re the same fella who thinks the Yankees couldn’t use another ace to add to their rotation.

      • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

        I do think that! I’m on your side!

        We’ll work together! LET’S TRADE OUR POTENTIAL YOUNG ACES FOR OLDER ACES!!!!

        UNITE!!!

      • Jack

        But then again you’re the same fella who thinks the Yankees couldn’t use another ace to add to their rotation.

        No, that’s not true.

        • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

          Yes, it is true.

          Let’s trade that Lazy Dominican second baseman for Felix Hernandez. We need another Ace.

        • Lanny

          But an ace for the Yankees would be a “luxury”, Jack!!–Rocky

          • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

            Now you’ve hurt my feelings. I’ve joined your side!

            • Lanny

              What side? is this a war or a baseball discussion?

              • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) who’s on Lanny/Bo’s side now

                Cool!

                Hey guys, Lanny and I have decides that having two sides to a discussion means it’s a war!

                AND WE’RE GONNA WIN IT TOO!!!

          • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

            Because the Yankees cannot afford to give up their young starting pitching making Halladay a nice luxury.

            • Lanny

              Why cant they afford it?

              Their system is getting pretty stocked right now from all reports especially at the lower levels.

  • Evil Empire

    Ehhh … after a LOT of deep thought and soul searching, I have to admit that trading for Doc Halladay is not the best course of action (I was making the argument for him last night) … not if it costs one of Joba/Hughes.

    I DO think it is important the Yankees stay aggressive with their free agent acquisitions though, or to see if there are other, more viable trades out there. If you’re not moving forward than you’re losing ground in this league, and I’d like to see a big play for John Lackey or Matt Holliday. We need to ride the aging core of Jeter/Mo/Posada/A-Rod/CC/AJ/Andy(probably) while the getting is good, and one more big piece would go a long way towards keeping our foot on the throat of baseball.

    Its going to be difficult to replace all of the numbers those guys will put up when they are either retired or still on the team but performing at a diminished capacity. Yankees are, as they always are, a WIN NOW team. If we just bring back Andy/Damon/Matsui the team is still certainly championship quality, but it can always be better, and I just don’t see the improvements from the players who have yet to peak (+ a full year of A-Rod) fully compensating for the overall decline in the older players.

  • Moboy

    Problem is Phil Hughes and Joba stock were higher 2 years ago.I mean since 2007 both are really good relievers who suck in the post season(Hughes more).

    Giving up Hughes isn’t like giving up Matt Cain or anything.

  • Januz

    Trading for Halliday makes no sense whatsoever. If they want another starter, they would be better off just signing John Lackey. Here are the options: Option 1: Joba or Hughes plus prospects and loads of cash for Halliday. Option 2: Loads of cash and a first round pick for Lackey.
    I concede the point that Halliday is better, but NOT to the degree where you sacrifice Joba or Hughes (Not to mention that fact Lackey is younger). ps: How does a Rotation of CC, Lackey, Andy, AJ, and Hughes sound? Plus you have Joba in the pen where he is most effective.

  • Melissa

    “As with Santana, Roy Halladay comes with one year guaranteed and the option to negotiate for more. He will be 33 on Opening Day, a good four years older than Santana was on Opening Day 2008 when he made his Mets debut, and while Halladay may be more durable and better equipped to deal with the rigors of age than Santana, the Yanks would be acquiring one year of an old pitcher for a few years of Joba or Phil. If it didn’t make sense a few years ago before we had a better sense of what Joba or Phil could do, it doesn’t make too much sense now.”

    ________________________________________________________________

    The Yankees DID offer the Twins either Hughes or Chamberlain to the Twins for Santana. The deal did not go through because the Twins wanted a package of either both of them or one of them with Ian Kennedy and Melky Cabrera.

    That of course was too much for the Yankees. The Yankee organization has already stated last July that they will not part with Hughes and certainly not both of them for Halladay but would consider parting with Chamberlain.

    I seriously doubt upgrading from Chamberlain to Hughes would have been a dealbreaker. Chamberlain was only an opening counteroffer to Blue Jays.

  • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

    I think if you can get Halliday for Phil or Joba you pull the trigger.

    Chances are neither of those fellas ever match what Roy is now, but that is really not the point. Roy inserted into our staff would turn CC into a number two, AJ into a number 3 (which I think he really is), and you can not resign Andy and go with whatever of your so called “Big 3″ you do not trade away. 5th starter is whatever retread you want to line up there. Andy might cost $13 to 15 for the year I would guess so you are looking at a salary wash for Roy’s first year.

    Part of getting Roy would be to keep him away from the Sox, or to neutralize whatever big move they could make.

    We have the parts to possibly win a few more rings here and when you do, you go for the gusto.

    In a few years if Joba or Phil ends up being the next Cy Young, good for them. We would have had to pay them big $ as well, so really I do not see why you do not go after Roy. I do not want Roy in 2011, I want Roy in 2010.

    Anybody thinking that the trade for Beckett was a poor choice undervalues what a championship is worth. The Red Sox have what 6 of them? Without Beckett they have one less. If the Sox had Manny in 08 they would have won another one with Beckett as their ace. That deal worked out pretty damn well for them. People on here are acting like it was the Smoltz for Alexander deal.

    This team will be old as dirt in a few years, and not trading one youngish pitcher away to get one of the best ever is not going to help too much. Let us go for the rings now, we will do the Yankee tradition of worrying about later when it is later.

  • Amol

    To me, this sounds like some Toronto assistant GM trying to drive up the price on Halladay, or maybe someone from the Yankee trying to hype A-Jax. That said, when you mention that Montero plays “one of the key up the middle positions”, it’s worth noting that there aren’t too many people outside the Yankees’ organization that think he’ll be playing that position in the majors.

  • DJ

    If I’m the Yankees, I’m trying to put Joba in the deal along with Ajax. Jackson is so overrated it’s not even funny and OF’s are easy to come by. He needs to be traded while he still has value, and Joba has by no means shown he can be what he was 2 years ago. Ever since that shoulder injury, his velocity has been down and his mechanics are out of whack. Maybe a full year in the bullpen fixes him, but then again, maybe not. When you can get an ace, you have to make the trade. A rotation of Halliday, CC, AJ, Pettitte, and Gaudin/Wang will be almost unstoppable.

  • Joseph M

    With respect to Jackson I agree the Yanks are trying to overhype him. All you need to know about Jackson is the fact that he was not called up in September. Jackson still has time but he will be 23 before spring training begins and appears ticketed for another year in the minors (his sixth). I think he will play in the majors someday, and will in fact have a representative major league career. I think he will fall somewhere between Gardner and Juan Rivera, but let’s not fool ourselfs that he’s anything more than that.

  • http://zachb zach b

    forget halladay go and get josh johnson