Heyman: Yankees ‘have a real reason to believe’ they can land Halladay

Who would you rather: Matsui or Damon
Open Thread: A time lapse of the World Series

Over the past three winters we’ve seen big name starting pitchers on the trade block. The Twins made clear their intentions to trade Johan Santana in the winter of 2007-2008. Last year, Jake Peavy dominated headlines for months, as the Padres fruitlessly dangled him in November. This year it’s Roy Halladay. Unsurprisingly, the Yankees have been connected to each player. They passed on both Santana and Peavy, but could it be different this year? SI’s Jon Heyman seems to think so.

What has changed between July, when the Yankees didn’t make a serious run at the available Halladay, and now? The Blue Jays’ general manager situation. They’ve since fired J.P. Ricciardi and have replaced him with Alex Anthopoulos. Learning from his predecessor’s mistakes, Anthopoulos has a different stance on Halladay than Ricciardi. The latter was hesitant to trade Halladay within the division, and also would not grant a trade partner a window to negotiate an extension. As we learned this morning, a Anthopoulos could allow an extension window. In his column this morning, Heyman notes that Anthopoulos will be more willing to deal within the AL East. Says the Jays’ GM:

“This isn’t the NBA where you’re talking about one of five guys on the floor at all times … If you have two trades that are identical, and one is in the division and one is outside, then it’s easy to go outside the division. However, if the trade is better inside the division, I think you have to take a look at it. We have to do what’s best for our organization.”

Another factor that has changed is Halladay’s price tag. As Heyman notes, the Red Sox made a large offer for Halladay in July, consisting of Clay Buchholz, Justin Masterson, Michael Bowden, and Nick Hagadone. From the Yankees, Heyman reminds us that the Blue Jays wanted a package centering around both Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes. The Blue Jays won’t get anything close to that this winter. They still should trade Halladay, but will have to accept a lesser package of prospects. That will make him more attractive to both the Yankees and the Red Sox.

Still, I’m not sure the Yankees will be serious players in this sweepstakes. They have their top two pitchers locked up for four and six more years, and they also have a number of promising young arms to complement them. Adding Halladay would be a good move for any team, but considering the price they’d have to pay, they might opt to stick with their guys and wait to see if Halladay reaches free agency next winter. I say this because even though Anthopoulos will deal more openly than Ricciardi, the Yankees have shown that they’re not keen on paying twice for a player.

Anthopoulos’s willingness to deal within the division will clearly open an avenue for the Yanks. All things equal he’d deal Halladay elsewhere, but if the Yankees have the superior offer he’s not going to spurn them. That means, however, that the Yankees would have to top any offer from another team, and the other team in question probably needs Halladay more than the Yankees. Unless the market is truly limited to just the Yankees, Mets, and Red Sox (which I doubt), it stands to reason that another team would be willing to offer more for a player they need, and who would be a luxury for the Yankees.

The negotiation window also makes Halladay more attractive, though I’m not sure it’s a tipping point for the Yankees. Heyman talked to a GM who thought that Halladay could get a “Santana or Sabathia deal.” Halladay will be 33 early in the 2010 season, so I’m not sure any team will be willing to offer him a six-year extension, especially if it comes at $23 million per season. Maybe the Yankees would be willing to offer a four-year, $92 million extension (so they’d have him for five years), but again, that would mean paying a bounty in prospects and then doling out $23 million per season. That just doesn’t seem to fit the team’s M.O.

No one can rule out the Yankees acquiring Roy Halladay. He’s clearly available, and the Yankees have already been connected to him. Given the team’s past behavior, though, I doubt they get too far in negotiations with the Blue Jays. They seem more apt to make a deal for John Lackey, who will just cost money, or to take a chance on a high upside player like Ben Sheets. That’s the way Brian Cashman has operated, and unless something drastic changes in the Halladay situation, I think he’ll pitch 2010 elsewhere.

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Who would you rather: Matsui or Damon
Open Thread: A time lapse of the World Series
  • K.B.D.

    “They still should trade Halladay, but will have to accept a lesser package of prospects.”

    Melky/IPK get it done?

    • Andy in Sunny Daytona

      Brett Gardner, Alan Horne and Brandon Laird. (new and improved)

      • K.B.D.

        Halladay + 10M for Croussett.

        • Andy in Sunny Daytona

          Not enough.

        • Andy in Sunny Daytona

          Ya cyan’t sell God, man.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Your patois needs work.

            Yuh cyaan sell off God, mon. Yuh bumba rass clot.

            • Andy in Sunny Daytona

              I deserve that.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Tek weh yuhself.

  • nirzhor

    ‘Yankees ‘have a real reason to believe’ they can land Halladay’
    i think we all can report that

  • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

    Counterargument:

    It’s true that a good GM will be patient and hold on to his youngsters. But it’s also true that a good GM will recognize when it’s time to trade prospects and which ones are tradeable. Maybe Halladay is their guy, and Cashman will sell some of the chips he has.

    I won’t be disappointed to see Halladay elsewhere next year, but if the price is right, I’m more comfortable bringing him on than I was Johan Santana.

    • TheLastClown

      Would parting with Joba or Hughes be part of your hypothetical ‘price is right’ scenario?

      • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

        No. I wouldn’t trade either right now for Halladay.

        • TheLastClown

          Totally agree.

        • JMK aka The Overshare

          What would you give for Halladay?

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Michael: Sentator, you can have my answer now, if you like.

            My offer is this: nothing. Not even the fee for the gaming license, which I would appreciate if you would put up, personally.

            • http://pinstripepalace.blogspot.com/ Brien Jackson

              Assuming you’re serious, that’s crazy.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Months from now, Alex Anthopolous will call Cashman in the middle of the night, disoriented, in a room with a dead hooker. He’ll give us Halladay for Eric Wordekemper, straight up.

                • JMK aka The Overshare

                  Palabrakemper!

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  You know, that’s a good idea. Change his name to Enrique Palabrakemper. Forge some documents, make him 20 years old.

                  His value will shoot up overnight.

        • MikefromSuffolk

          Why not Joba is total garbage!!!

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            LOUD NOISES!!!!!

    • mustang

      Agree.

      Can i ask the million dollar question.

      What do you think is the right and fair price for both teams?

      • Andy in Sunny Daytona

        The price, IMHO, would depend on how much the Yankees are willing to take on (Vernon’s contract). If the Yankees don’t take on that albatross of a contract, expect a lot of pain.

        • TheLastClown

          This was an interesting question from the comments of yesterday *or a couple days ago.*

          Namely, when *besides the Marlins/Lowell situation* has taking on an albatross contract tipped the scales in a trade for an ace?

          I’m not even sure the Beckett/Lowell comp is valid anyway, in that the Sox had to give up Hanley, obviously their best prospect, and THEN had to take on that albatross of a contract, probably in lieu of another blue-chipper.

          So…maybe the Jays want us to take Wells and then ONLY ask for one of Joba/Hughes/Montero, which still merits a pass IMO.

          • Andy in Sunny Daytona

            Lowell’s contract was a majestic-peacock of a contract compared to Wells’. Wells’ contract is a flock-of-albatrosses-on-the-Titanic of a contract.

            • TheLastClown

              Then back to the first question. Forget Lowell.

              When has a team traded away its most valuable for a sub-optimal return, choosing instead to unload a nasty contract?

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              Vernon Wells’s contract makes Stephon Marbury’s contract look like Tim Wakefield’s contract.

          • Zack

            Lowell was owed 18m, Wells is owed 90m+

        • mustang

          That’s another question what I like to call the “Death contract”. If the Jays eat half and lower their price as far as kids what then.
          Lets say:
          Wells $40 million for 4
          Roy $ 92 million for 4
          Plus B level kids

          Seem like a lot to me and totally against Yankees current MO.

        • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

          I think we should forgot about Vernon Wells’ being a part of this deal. If the Jays are going to trade Halladay, for the sake of the future of the team and their current fan base, they have to get back an impact prospect. Including Wells int he deal would foreclose that possibility enitrely because no team will take on Wells’ contract while giving up anything of value in return.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            I think we should forgot about Vernon Wells’ being a part of this deal.

            Or any deal, for that matter.

            Vernon Wells will not be traded. He’s untradable.

            Let me repeat that, louder:

            Vernon Wells will not be traded. He’s untradable.

            • thurdonpaul

              what, i couldnt hear you, can you speak up ? :)

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                VERNON WELLS WILL NOT BE TRADED. HE’S UNTRADABLE.

                • thurdonpaul

                  thank you, now i heard you :)

      • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

        What do you think is the right and fair price for both teams?

        Considering what the Yanks paid for Swisher and what the Twins got for Santana, I can’t really answer that question because I have no idea how the Yanks value their players or Halladay or how the Blue Jays value the Yanks’ prospects or Halladay. As Joe says, any trade proposal of mine would suck.

        In my mind, the right price shouldn’t include Joba, Hughes or Montero. Anyone else is fair game.

        If you want an indication of what this could cost, look at the Clemens trade. He had one more year left than Halladay and cost a bona fide starter, a bona fide reliever and a 26-year-old player with high expectations.

        • Zack

          http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....-deal.html

          With those comments about quality over quantity, a deal without Joba/Hughes/Jesus doesnt look like it will get it done.

        • mustang

          I would of like a proposal, but I can live with this.

          I will give it a shot and watch the fireworks without the guys you listed:

          AJAX, IPK, Z-Mac and Romine

          Maybe think about taking Wells if they eat A LOT of contract.

          what do we think?
          too much?
          too little?

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Not too much or too little. That package sounds like what we’d offer.

            It will be beaten by someone else, though, I think.

            • mustang

              I agree and we are on the same page as far as Wells too.

            • mustang

              The funny part is that this is probably more then the Mets gave up for Johan Santana, but if the Yankees got Halladay for it the baseball world would come to an end.
              LOL

          • thurdonpaul

            sounds like to much to me, halladay is kinda a luxury for us, if we get him great, if not, oh well

            • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

              Here’s how to judge the proposal: Will any of those players be as good as Halladay? It’s not too much.

              • thurdonpaul

                sorry, but i still think its to much, i would wait to see if we can get him as a free agent, and if not, oh well
                i dont want to give up much at all for him

        • no.27

          The problem with trading prospects for Hallady is that the Yankees are going to need young cheap players to fill out the roster if they sign Halladay to the contract he will demand.

          In 2012, the Yankees have $122.5 million committed to A-Rod, CC, Teixeira, Burnett, Cano, and Jeter (assuming he signs for $20M/yr). Add $23M/year for Halladay, and there isn’t much left over to fill out the roster.

          That means they are going to need Montero at catcher, Jackson in the outfield, and Hughes and Joba filling out the rotation.

          I just think the Yankees are better off keeping their prospects and waiting for guys like Halladay to become available in free agency. The Yankees don’t NEED Halladay to win the World Series. The Yankees can really only afford 1 more big contract on this group of players and I think they should save it for Mauer or King Felix instead of another 30 year old pitcher.

          • sabes

            +1

            They didn’t give it up for Santana, why would they give it up for Halladay? The only possible reason is to keep him away from the Red Sox, and their offer was already turned down (and they won’t offer as much this offseason). They can wait for Halladay to become a free agent (if he does).

            • Lanny

              Maybe they think Halladay is a better and more durable pitcher. Maybe they evaluated them both and feel hes a better option.

              Maybe they think a rotation the next 2 yrs of CC-Doc-AJ is good for 2 more titles.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Maybe Matt Holliday accepts a 3yr/30M contract.

                Maybe you CAN make lemonade from lemons.

  • dkidd

    what are the chances we sign sheets or duschsher (spelling) from the a’s?

  • A.D.

    Eh I don’t see the Yanks parting with Joba, Hughes, or Montero, and likely not AJAX. So you’re leaving it to Nova, Z-Mac, and Romine to get it done. I just don’t see it.

    • mustang

      Where does IPK fit in?
      In the first or second group?

      • TheLastClown

        He’s gotta be in the second group.

        If IPK is the deal breaker to get Halladay *which he won’t be* you have to pull the trigger.

        • mustang

          Agree

        • A.D.

          Yeah second.

          The point is any of those not top 3-4, are presumably all available for a trade like this, but is it really enough to get it done.

    • Reggie C.

      yeah. i agree with the general sentiment of your statement. but … though Cash & company maintain the view that both Joba & Hughes are starters, the ceiling estimate may have changed. we just cant be sure …

  • http://thesportshernia.typepad.com/blog/images/2008/05/04/melky_cabrera_cant_believe_it_phixr.png Drew

    I only like Halladay if we can negotiate an extension before the deal is finalized.
    I’m assuming they’ll have to get one of Joba or Hughes, then 2 prospects, maybe a major league reliever too. I’d hope Jesus is untouchable.

    Joba/Phil, Romine and one more chip. Does that get it done? Again, we can’t be giving up Joba/Phil if Halladay is only coming in for a year then hitting free agency.

    • Reggie C.

      maybe. if by “chip” you mean Austin Jackson.

    • TheLastClown

      But do you really want to give up either of them anyway?

      I mean, Cliff Lee hits FA in the next class. You might be able to pick up Halladay, assuming he doesn’t negotiate an extension w/ whomever, in that same class.

      The class after that has the ever-alluring King Felix.

      Why trade away two young high-upside guys who could BOTH become viable 1/2 starters in the best case scenario?

      Even if one or both of them doesn’t pan out as a starter, they’ve both got extremely bright futures in the Yanks BP. And all the super-fun blasphemy that we throw around on here aside, Mo’s not going to close forever. A failed starter Joba or Hughes would be a great replacement candidate, if of course they don’t stick in the rotation.

      Just seems a bit premature to me, blowing a load of prospects for something you can get in FA in one or both of the next two years.

      All that said, Anthopoulos is just posturing, because having the big dogs in the bidding will drive up potential packages from other clubs, IMHO.

      • http://thesportshernia.typepad.com/blog/images/2008/05/04/melky_cabrera_cant_believe_it_phixr.png Drew

        Halladay is arguably the best pitcher in the game, if we can have him for 2010-14, I’d like to make that happen. That said, Cash isn’t going to over pay for him, we don’t need him. He sure would be a nice shiny toy but I’m kind of indifferent. Like I said, we don’t need him and as a result, someone else will probably come in with a better offer that we should not attempt to match.

        • TheLastClown

          But you said you liked the idea contingent on an extension, and would be comfortable with losing one of Joba/Hughes.

          I’m saying that if he doesn’t get traded to what he feels is a perpetual contender, he’ll hit FA anyway, and we could get him at that time.

          I don’t think he’ll decline too much, so I wouldn’t be averse to adding him after next year.

          But there is NO reason to trade Joba or Hughes.

          Honestly, I wouldn’t even want to trade AJax, being that he’s the closest viable position prospect.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Honestly, I wouldn’t even want to trade AJax, being that he’s the closest viable position prospect.

            Honestly, given our OF and SP situations and the available OF and SP options coming up in free agency, you can easily say that while Halladay is much better than AJax, we need AJax way more than we need Halladay. AJax may have more value to this team than Halladay does.

            • mustang

              I totally understand your thinking here, but that’s still Roy Halladay arguably one of the best pitchers in MLB .
              I’m sorry but AJax does not have more value then Halladay on this or any team regardless.

              • TheLastClown

                Did you know that light can be measured as both a wave and a particle?

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.....relativity

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                And the reason that AJax may have more value to us than Halladay is that

                A) we already have CC-AJ-Joba-Hughes-Andy, more than enough to win the 2010 World Series
                B) Halladay-Lee-Beckett-Webb will be free agents next year, and we can add one of them then and still keep AJax to fill the larger CF void we have
                C) Felix, Cain, and others are FA’s the year after that
                D) There aren’t really any good CF’s hitting the market anytime soon

                • http://pinstripepalace.blogspot.com/ Brien Jackson

                  “Halladay-Lee-Beckett-Webb will be free agents next year…”

                  Minor point, they MIGHT be free agents next season. I can see Halladay, Lee, and Beckett in particular signing extensions before they hit the market.

                • mustang

                  and did Carl Crawford sign an extension isn’t he a FA soon.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  Crawford isn’t really a CF, though.

            • TheLastClown

              This guy knows what I’m talking about.

            • no.27

              It’s basically another Santana/CC situation. The difference is, before, Cashman didn’t think the Yankees were in position to win even if they added Santanta. Now, Cashman knows they CAN win WITHOUT Halladay.

              I think the bottom line is that the Yankees can only afford 1 more big contract and that’s only if they can fill out the rest of the roster with cheap young talent. Hold out for Felix or Mauer and keep winning until then.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                The difference is, before, Cashman didn’t think the Yankees were in position to win even if they added Santanta. Now, Cashman knows they CAN win WITHOUT Halladay.

                I have nothing to add, just repeating this louder to make sure everyone heard it.

  • dkidd

    i like our recent strategy of trading for position players and signing pitchers. i’d rather wait and hope he’s available to sign.

  • http://generationnot.blogspot.com/ Steve S

    I don’t want to make this a forum for ripping the Mets, but I don’t get all these talks about them acquiring Halladay. I know they have some prospects in low A (and I plead ignorance on the status of their farm system) but I just dont see what package of players can really land them Halladay, unless Toronto pulls a Bill Smith and wants less than he would from the East, which this article indicates the opposite is true.

    This leads me to my second point, considering the extension talks from earlier, what teams will realistically be in this? The Dodgers should be in on it but considering that nasty divorce I doubt they get involved. Maybe the Cubs, I know their system has some talent in AA and AAA. Aside from the Yankees and Boston, I don’t see many teams with the combination of prospects and $ to get him, if we are talking about an extension. I’m really asking just because these conversations regarding Joba or Phil being included. How many teams are going to include cheap/young major league talent in the package? The Mets don’t have any. The Red Sox may be able to if they gave them Bucholtz or Bard. I really think that Joba, Phil and Jesus should really be off limits. What is the real market for this guy? There is no doubting his impact and talent, but as a 31 year old with a ton of innings on his arm, I just see whoever gets him overpaying, considering that you would either only get him for a year or have to extend him for X amount of years.

    • John

      Think Steve S makes a good point here. It’s a great question: what truly is the market for Halladay? (Hint: would love to see a post on that guys!) But I actually think it might be larger than many of the lazy MSM writers make it out to be. Like with Holliday, they just keep saying “like always it will come down to NY and Boston.” But I’m not so sure. New Toronto GM, Alex A., needs to make his mark and therefore will be creative as possible. Off the bat, we can eliminate for payroll reasons: Det, Hou, KC, Cin, Col, Min, Cle, Oak, TB, SD, Fla and Pit. But that leaves 18 teams, many of whom A) have largeish payrolls, B) do have top tier talent at the major and/or minor league levels and C) were very competitive last year and with a Halladay could have made it to post-season. Some of the teams that fit ALL of those criteria include: CHW, TEX, SEA, ATL, CHC and SF. In addition: LAD, LAA, NYM, PHI, MIL, ARI and BAL all COULD be players for Roy for various reasons, upwards of 15 teams if you include NY and BOS. I think this will be fascinating to watch, but ultimately I don’t think he ends up in either NY or BOS.

  • crawdaddie

    I don’t have any evidence, but I don’t believe that Red Sox trade rumor from last summer.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph Pawlikowski

      Yeah, it doesn’t really fit their M.O.

  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

    Here’s the problem, as I see it:

    1) Joba, Hughes, and Montero are off limits. That means the deal would have to be AJax (centerpiece) + one of the close-to-the-majors pitchers (Nova/McAllister/Kennedy) + one of the high-upside youngsters (Vizcaino/ManBan/Heredia/Brackman) + some other lower-upside kid in the system somewhere for extra depth (Laird/CoJo/Sublett/etc.)

    So let’s say the package is AJax/Nova/Vizcaino/Laird.

    2) With no Joba/Hughes/Montero in the package, we can put together a decent collection of talent for the Jays, but someone else can trump that, fairly easily. I love AJax and think he’s one of the better young prospects in the game, but he does have flaws in his game, noticeably his K rate and lack of power. If Anthopolous is picking from an AJax-centric package from us and, say, a Wood package from the Angels, or a Ethan Martin package from the Dodgers, or a or a Vitters package from the Cubs, etc., I think we come up short.

    • SM

      Agreed. The yanks have no reason to over pay.
      When the Johan deal was announced, did you think that package should have been topped?

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Yes, but I think that package couldn’t have been topped, because I don’t think they priced Santana to us the same way they priced Santana to the Mets. I think they overplayed their hand, but the Twins most definitely had reason to charge a premium price to move Santana to the Red Sox or Yankees.

        You can disagree with their strategy in the abstract, but I think that strategy has way more merit than people often give it credit for. Yes, they didn’t get premier players for Santana, but they did get the benefit of moving him far away from themselves and their competitors, and that’s still worth a lot.

      • jsbrendog

        when that deal was announced i thought, for once and only once, ever, that omar minaya did something right. he fleeced the twins and stoneman.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          Omar benefited from a perfect storm.

          The only three teams who could realistically afford to trade for and then extend Santana to a record-setting 20M+ AAV contract were the Yankees, Sox, and Mets, and the Twins were obviously willing to take back less in return to keep Santana away from their two AL rivals and tormentors.

          The Twins were backed into a corner. It was either take the Mets package and recoup something, take the better package from NYY or BOS and then watch Santana pitch you out of the playoffs for the next 7 years, or let him walk and sign with NYY or BOS anyway.

          Given that set of eventualities, they eliminated the second and third and judged the Mets offer as a Hobson’s choice.

    • Reggie C.

      Oh yea. Totally.

      An Ajax fronted package loses out to any number of other packages. The RS beat it if they start it off with Westmoreland.

      • Zack

        but the handshake no trade agreement!!1!

    • Lanny

      Why would Joba be off limits?

      You have to give to get. He would really be off limits when it comes to getting the best starter? I doubt that.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Your doubts are incorrect.

  • pat

    It would break my heart to have to part with Ajax and/or McAllister and/or Romine and or Viz etc, but the truth is not all of these kids are going to reach their potential and should be considered viable trade pieces for the right price in the right deal. As much as it kills me to say this, I’d give up an ajax/zmac/banuelos to secure Roy for 2010 and 4 or 5 years beyond. Adding him to the rotation would pretty much guarantee we win any postseason series. His easy mechanics, impeccable command and pitch movement as well as his dirty good changeup leads me to believe he would age very well. As a result, I would be comfortable giving him a long term deal.

    I love our prospects as much as anybody here, but getting Halladay would most certainly make the Yanks heavy WS favorites for the next few years.

    • Reggie C.

      Add Nova and i wonder if Anthopolous now has to seriously consider it.

    • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

      The odds of any of those players you mentioned reaching Halladay-level impact at all is slim. None of them should be untouchable, and I would include any in a trade if need be.

    • A.D.

      Adding him to the rotation would pretty much guarantee we win any postseason series.

      Halladay, CC, Burnett, Joba/Hughes would be extremely filthy.

  • Jake K

    Halladay–given his age and cost in terms of dollars and prospects–makes sense for a team that needs that last piece to put them into championship contention. The Yankees don’t need him to win a World Series next year or the year after.

    Why pay the ransom for Halladay (and for his likely decline years) when they already have a good to potentially great rotation (sign someone like Sheets and it’s even more stacked)? Then, in a year, they could potentially add Lee, Webb, Felix or even Halladay himself to replace Pettitte, surrendering nothing more than money.

    Every team could benefit from having another ace like Halladay. But they should only pay what he’s going to cost if they absolutely need him. This team doesn’t need him next year.

  • radnom

    Any pitcher except JobaHughes.
    Any position player except Montero.

    Does that get it done? Eh, probably not.

    But an Ajax, Romine, IPK, [add another pitcher of choice] package would at least be competitive for one year of service and fairly reasonable from the Yankee’s end.

    • A.D.

      Yeah I mean technically something like Nova/ZMac/Romine/Random piece has a better chance of solid MLB impact than a 1st & sandwich pick, but doesn’t mean they’re taking it.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      I’d imagine with J.P. Arenciba and Brian Jeroloman in the system, the Jays would probably prefer that the top three prospects in the trade be AJax + two pitchers rather than AJax + Romine + one pitcher.

      JMHO.

      • radnom

        Maybe I wasn’t clear (or I’m misunderstanding you) but I was throwing out there Ajax + Romine + IPK (imo, best untouchable pitching prospect in my scenario) + another pitcher whoever they wanted.

        All I was really getting at was if the Yankees said “take any four players not named Hughes, Joba or Montero” it would be a somewhat decent offer and I wouldn’t mind giving it up.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          No, we understand each other. I’m just saying, separate of your main “No Hughes/Joba/Montero” point that I think that the Jays would want two quality pitchers in addition to AJax instead of one quality pitcher and a quality catcher. I think they’d ask for Arodys, ManBan, or Heredia as the third player, rather than asking for Romine.

          We agree on the main point, I’m just commenting on the fine print.

          • radnom

            I see what you mean. I was confused because I originally meant give them the two quality pitchers PLUS Romine.

            I figure with the diminished status of Ajax, any deal would require an additional position player, but that is just me speculating on the Blue Jay’s desire. Hell, I would be fine with Ajax + any three pitchers they want.

    • Reggie C.

      Since when does Romine carry strong trade value?

      If you’re not giving up any of the trio, you let Anthopolous get any 4 minor leaguers he wants. Romine isnt in that 4. jmo.

      • radnom

        you let Anthopolous get any 4 minor leaguers he wants

        Thats essentially what I was going four. Who would replace Romine then?
        Do you think Ajax + 3 pitchers would be preferred by other teams?

        • Reggie C.

          Yeah. This quartet of pitchers: Arodys, Manny B., Zmac, and Nova are expendable & (imo) superior trade chips than Romine.

          • radnom

            I wouldn’t disagree with that. Especially considering (as tsjc) the makeup of Toronto’s system. But yeah, each team values prospects differently, it honestly could be any of those guys.

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              Yeah, I’m not saying they wouldn’t value Romine, he’s a quality chip. But getting at least two young SP prospects and one quality young position player is generally speaking the baseline minimum return for trading an ace. With AJax fronting the deal, I bet they want high-upside pitchers rounding out the package rather than another catcher who’s bat is just solid and not spectacular.

              Young starters have a higher bust-rate than young position players, so picking Arodys/ManBan/Heredia/Brackman over Romine is riskier, but you generally want to find at least one replacement rotation candidate when you trade away a starter, so you want to ask for two or more to increase your chances of finding one.

    • Lanny

      If the Yankees feel Joba isnt going to be a top pitcher he should go. Now. If they think Montero isnt great. So should he. But those are things we dont know. We dont know their evaluations of players. 98% of you have never seen Montero in person let alone hit and field.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Again, dude, we KNOW how they value Joba, Hughes, and Montero. They value all of them as future stars. That’s why they’ve been off limits before, that’s why they’re off limits now, that’s why they’ll be off limits in the future.

        Your repeated posting of this line (under all your aliases) doesn’t carry much water.

        • Stuckey

          “Again, dude, we KNOW how they value Joba, Hughes, and Montero. They value all of them as future stars. That’s why they’ve been off limits before, that’s why they’re off limits now, that’s why they’ll be off limits in the future.”

          Dude, last week you KNEW Cashman would never even call the Jays about Halladay and apparently (according to Heymman) they did.

          Let’s maybe chill on the things we “know”…

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Dude, read the post again.

            That’s not what I said. What I said was, I doubt that we needed to inquire about Halladay, because we know the framework of a trade. We still do. I called bullshit on Heyman.. who, not incidentally, is the SAME PERSON SOURCED IN THIS RUMOR, which I’m also calling bullshit on.

            • Stuckey

              Good gracious…

              You didn’t say you “doubted” they would. You said they wouldn’t, which remains a vastly overstated and unnecessary way of making your point.

              That you seemingly remained committed to the notion to the Yanks wouldn’t simply do periodic due diligence to the point of calling Heyman’s reporting “bullshit” based on nothing but your own assumption is pure stubbornness.

              That said, NONE of us know for certain Hughes, Chamberlain and Montero are untouchable, and will be in the future.

              Doesn’t mean they aren’t, or are, they might very well be, but any FAN claiming it as a absolute certainty is again, just being stubborn.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                You: Does anyone doubt that Cashman actually inquired about Halladay?
                Me: Yes. I doubt it.

                … aaaaaaaaaaaaaand, SCENE!

  • nathan

    Which would be more painful

    Halladay or AGon to Red Sox

    Would the following work for Halladay

    Montero/Ajax/ZMac/IPK

    or

    Romine/Ajax/Zmac/IPK/ManBan

    • Teix is the Man

      WAAAAY too much in both proposals (A-GON would be far more painful)

      • radnom

        I don’t know if the second proposal is “WAAAY” too much.

        Same players but

        Ajax + IPK + [Romine, Zmac, ManBan](choose two of three)

        is reasonable.

        Agreed that AGON would be more painful, but they would have to sign over rights to their farm for 10 years to get him which would soften the blow.

        • Teix is the Man

          I would mind Boston getting him just for the fact that it would destroy their farm.

          • Teix is the Man

            wouldn’t

      • nathan

        finally with trades I have realized if its the Yanks you have to bleed more… it was true with Santana and with others.. no one is gonna give the Yanks a break.. any tie proposal we dont get the ‘target’

        if as purported Montero doesnt pan out behind the plate, he is a cheaper Matt Stairs.. to go from Posada-lite to Stairs is a major drop in trade value… also, i expect Ajax to only be slightly better than Gardner… if Ajaxmatches Cabrera thats a pretty good ceiling… his BABIP and lack of power are disconcerting

        IPK is a serious risk, and his clock has been running.. you are gonna lose him in a trade sooner..he aint got no place in our rotation… ZMac i threw in there.. it could very well be Nova..

        in the 2nd proposal, Romine is a wild card.. i cant get a proper read from anywhere.. folks are high enough on him to call him Posada-lite with way less power but we have depth here… and ManBan its too early to say if he will be in our plans…

        I think a rotation of Buchholz-Halladay-Lester-Beckett will be death to AL for the next 5 years… i see AGon as a replacement for the lost power and OBP of big sloppy… that rotation gives me chills

        • radnom

          finally with trades I have realized if its the Yanks you have to bleed more… it was true with Santana and with others.. no one is gonna give the Yanks a break.. any tie proposal we dont get the ‘target’

          I could list a number of situations where this just is false, but I think Nick Swisher is a good enough example to prove this. Teams are going to take the best offer, regardless (trading out of division/league not withstanding).


          if as purported Montero doesnt pan out behind the plate, he is a cheaper Matt Stairs.. to go from Posada-lite to Stairs is a major drop in trade value… also, i expect Ajax to only be slightly better than Gardner… if Ajaxmatches Cabrera thats a pretty good ceiling… his BABIP and lack of power are disconcerting

          Really? If Montero reaches his offensive ceiling but can’t stick behind the plate he should still be better than Stairs.

          Speaking of which I don’t think you understand the concept of a ceiling. Yes, it is unlikely (< 50% chance) that Ajax ever becomes as good a major leaguer than Melky, but he has a much higher ceiling than that.

          IPK is a serious risk, and his clock has been running.. you are gonna lose him in a trade sooner..he aint got no place in our rotation… ZMac i threw in there.. it could very well be Nova..


          I think a rotation of Buchholz-Halladay-Lester-Beckett will be death to AL for the next 5 years… i see AGon as a replacement for the lost power and OBP of big sloppy… that rotation gives me chills

          How exactly do the Sox get AGon and Hallady?

          Not to mention sign Hallady and Beckett both for the next 5 years?

          • nathan

            I meant.. i would much rather them have AGon… not Halladay

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            I could list a number of situations where this just is false, but I think Nick Swisher is a good enough example to prove this. Teams are going to take the best offer, regardless (trading out of division/league not withstanding).

            The Swisher trade is largely an outlier. You’re talking about a player who was judged to be overpaid and a poor fit for his team, and they were looking to foist him off on a deep-pocketed team willing to gamble on a bounceback.

            That’s not analogous to the Halladay deal, nor the Santana deal or any other deal for any legit MLB star player.

            • radnom

              Outlier in terms of value given for value returned but I think its an example of how there is not a league-wide conspiracy to not trade talent to the Yankees unless you get completely blown away. Because there isn’t. In fact, common sense should be the only example needed.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Nobody said it was a “conspiracy”.

                What he said was, teams charge the Yankees and Red Sox premium prices for premium players. As they should.

                • radnom


                  Nobody said it was a “conspiracy”.

                  What he said was, teams charge the Yankees and Red Sox premium prices for premium players. As they should.

                  That is totally a conspiracy. Why would teams hurt themselves (take packages of lesser value) just to screw over the Yanks/Sox. With the Twins it was a league thing, but if the Twins were in the National league the Mets would have been the ones with the handicap, not the other way around. I don’t think there is anything particularly special about the Yankees or the Red Sox, other than the fact that their prospects tend to be overhyped, leading to their fans feeling that they are getting jobbed.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  It’s outlined over and over again, all over this thread and others.

                  Teams have a rational reason to charge the Sox and Yankees more than they charge others, because they have a direct competitive interest in not making the Yankees or Red Sox any stronger by trading their stars to them, since the Yankees and Red Sox perennially have the best teams in baseball.

                  They’re only partially doing it to screw the Yanks/Sox over. Screwing the Yanks/Sox over also directly benefits their own teams by making their competition less formidable.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  But these teams aren’t “conspiring” with each other to not trade stars to Boston or New York.

                  They’re all, independently of each other, coming to the calculated self-interested decision to not trade stars to Boston or New York. There’s no collusion here, just independent actors all coming to the same logical conclusion and strategy.

    • Lanny

      Who cares if the Sox get another 1b?

      Pitching wins titles. They totally whiffed not grabbing Halladay last yr and putting forth a rotation of Halladay Beckett Lester

  • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

    Again, don’t discount the possibility of a total repeat of the Johan Santana situation.

    People have repeatedly said that the Twins made a poor decision in taking the inferior package of prospects for Santana. The problem with this evaluation is that the Twins also highly valued the benefit of keeping Santana far away from their AL rivals. Given their team and payroll restrictions, they reasoned they were better off taking something while keeping Santana out of the AL East where he could hurt them.

    That reasoning may ultimately be sound and correct. The same reasoning would apply to the Jays, twofold. The Jays may be a stronger team by taking better prospects from the Red Sox or Yankees, but they may be better served by being a slightly weaker team by taking inferior prospects from someone else while at the same time preventing the Yankees and Red Sox from becoming an even more dominant team with Halladay.

    • Teix is the Man

      Agreed, but I think this only works if the team(s) involved are the Mets or Dodgers, and I don’t think either will be too proactive.

    • radnom


      The problem with this evaluation is that the Twins also highly valued the benefit of keeping Santana far away from their AL rivals. Given their team and payroll restrictions, they reasoned they were better off taking something while keeping Santana out of the AL East where he could hurt them.

      This does not conflict with the “Twins made a poor decision approach”.
      The Twins are playing against a stacked deck. The only teams they were talking to had a huge advantage (free agency) over them. They would have been much better off making their team the best it could be while hurting the opposition. If they trade to the Yankees instead, they get the benefit of a (by all accounts) better return, AND a weaker Yankees squad.

    • http://pinstripepalace.blogspot.com/ Brien Jackson

      I don’t know, Santana was younger than Halladay when he was dealt. How old will Halladay be before Toronto can reasonably expect to be competitive? 36? 37? Much less risk involved there, IMO.

      • Lanny

        How is any team better served by taking inferior prospects for a star and NOT getting better?

        So a few fans can feel better by not seeing their former pitcher?

        You cant operate like that. Who cares where you trade him as long as you get the best deal.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          Bo/Lanny, you have a massive problem with oversimplification.

          The world is complex. Learn to deal with it, hopefully right after you learn to use the reply button.

  • TheLastClown

    2010 I’d like to see one or two reclamation projects of CMW, Duchscherer, Harden & Sheets.

    2011 perhaps think about replacing Andy with Lee

    I think CC will pitch with excellence the next two years, compelling him toward opting into FA.

    Then we get Felix.

    Throw Chapman in there somewhere, and there’s just no room for ol’ Roy.

    • Teix is the Man

      That’s a shitload of assumptions.

      • TheLastClown

        It’s full of things I’d like to see happen and think there’s a reasonable chance of happening. What am I assuming?

    • nathan

      I dont think CC will opt out, who is gonna pay more than Yanks.. and Cash$$ may without Hank’s intervention not negotiate with CC.. the wear on that arm has to concern us

      it would be a blessing if he opts out.. but i dont think CC does that

      • vin

        “it would be a blessing if he opts out.. but i dont think CC does that”

        What?! The dude was the single biggest reason for #27. Having an ace who can make 3 quality starts in a series is a TREMENDOUS advantage. Look at the Phils with Cliff Lee.

        “the wear on that arm has to concern us”

        His health has been remarkable. He’s only made less than 30 starts once in his career – and that 2006 when he made 28. In 9 seasons, he’s thrown over 200 innings only 4 times. He’s got the body to support the workload (and then some).

        Worrying about a pitcher’s arm is like worrying about getting into a car accident – in can happen at anytime to anybody, but if you’re a good driver you lessen the likelihood. CC has a healthy track record, which lessens the likelihood of an injury.

        • nathan

          the difference between the good and bad GMs and teams is to figure out when the players reach their prime.. i know CC has done some amazing things this season for us.. he got us 27… but that workload is a serious one… his body type can turn around and work against him in no time…

          totally on a tanget, i watched MLB network on the night of the WS clinch they interviewed CC and Mitch Williams (former Philly closer) totally showed how classy he is.. he asked CC’s wife “what do you feed him..” jaw dropping… way to beclassy Mitch

          • vin

            Yeah, Mitch is a total ass.

            I hear what you’re saying about CC, but as a wiseman has said many times:

            You can’t predict baseball… you just can’t!

      • TheLastClown

        If CC puts up comparable #s over the next two seasons, he’ll be 30 for the 1st half of 2012.

        He’ll still be in his prime. I think he’d be able to negotiate another big deal at that time.

        I included that because I think the Yanks don’t go so aggressively after Felix if CC doesn’t opt-out.

        Although, if either or both of Joba/Hughes don’t look to be panning out as starters at that point, they may jump all over Felix anyway.

        • JMK aka The Overshare

          Right now it’s waaaaaaay too early to even speculate on any of this.

          • TheLastClown

            Well why do you think they included the opt-out clause in CC’s contract?

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              Because CC asked for it.

              I’d put the odds of CC opting out at about 95%.

              • TheLastClown

                For or against?

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  95% odds that he DOES opt out.

                  That’s not the odds that he LEAVES, mind you, just the odds that he opts out. He could most definitely pull an ARod and opt out just to regenotiate a better deal with a longer contractual committment. Rip up the last four years of the deal and sign a new 5 or 6 year deal.

      • pete

        i think he will, and i think the yankees will choose to go after felix instead of CC.

    • vin

      If CC opts out, then its a good thing for the Yanks because it means that:

      He’s pitched so well that he feels he deserves a raise.
      – or –
      The Yanks can go all-in on King Felix.

      I hope its the former, and Hughes and Joba pitch up to their capabilities.

      • Lanny

        Why wouldnt CC opt out?

        Ask A-Rod how that worked out for him. As long as hes healthy he’ll make even more money.

  • vin

    Just because the Jays’ GM will allow a negotiation window, doesn’t mean Halladay (and his agent) will accept an extension.

    I’m sure Doc’s agent has a good understanding of what his client’s value will be on the FA market. In a trade + extension scenario, Halladay loses leverage because he’s only negotiating with one team who is ALSO “paying” in terms of prospects.

    Johan Santana did get a contract commensurate with his value (blame Omar?), but he definitely would’ve had more leverage if he was a FA.

    Halladay may very well get traded and sign an extension, but when he and his agent hold firm to what they believe Doc’s value is, it will inherently take some teams out of the running.

    Halladay has more value in the AL. If guys like Pineiro and Wolf can be lock-down starters in the NL, why pay for Doc?

    I see it as a three team race – Yanks, Socks, and Angels. With the Rangers being the darkhorse. I have no idea of Texas’ financial status, other than their payroll has been under 70 mill every year since they traded Arod. Now that they have enough talent to contend, Doc could put them over.

    • Teix is the Man

      you also get rid of some young talent to get him though

      • vin

        Regarding Texas? Yeah, you’re right.

    • JGS

      Doc is also four years older. He won’t get a Johan contract

      • vin

        Maybe not, but the point is Johan got an extension that was probably in line with what he would’ve gotten on the FA market. It’s not an issue of who would make more. The economy is in a much worse spot, so that alone should shave some money (and number of suitors) off.

        • Lanny

          Econ maybe terrible but the economy of baseball is as high as its ever been.

  • JMK aka The Overshare

    Favorite MLBTR trade scenario:

    “How about him in a 4 way Trade?
    The Mets get him to be in front of Santana and Overbay to play 1B.
    The Blue Jays get Bradley to be DH/RF,Nick Evans to be LF/1B,Marte future 3B or 1B,Pelfrey-Starter,Holt-Starter,Purnell-Bullpen and Castillo 2B with Hill moving back to SS
    Cubs get BJ Upton to play 2b intill Castro’s ready then to CF
    Rays get Koyie Hill to Catcher,League to Close”

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....-deal.html

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Listening to trade proposals in MLBTR comments makes me lose faith in the American educational system.

      • JMK aka The Overshare

        I like the random capitalization. I wonder if the poster’s handle on here is “LeiDavidIsrael”.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          Oh, him… he posts on here sometimes. His posts run the full gamut of responses from “Well said, +1″ to “MULTIPLE INTERROBANGS?!?!??!??!”

          That one looks like the latter.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Matt Gavin’s followup after everyone shits on his horrible proposal:

            Okay Bradley to the Mets with Overbay heading to the Cubs and Aybar heading to the Cubs to.
            Cubs then could the trade Overbay to the Giants for Zito and so on and Lee to the Tigers for Inge,Willis,Ordonez.

            Ugh. He’s digging the hole even deeper.

            • JMK aka The Overshare

              I’d take that if Jerome James were included in the deal.

            • vin

              I’m not sure if this is a bad trade proposal or not…

              Does it have a lot of moving parts?
              Major injury risks going to a team that lost half its lineup to injury last year?
              Is there an albatross contract being shipped to a team that has been having ownership issues for the last year-plus?
              Is there a very good player getting dealt for two bad contracts and a player with a career OPS+ of 84?

              Let me check my RAB “Why your trade proposal sucks” checklist…
              Check
              Check
              Check
              Check

  • Free Mike Vick

    I wouldn’t trade Montero for anything. And i won’t trade BOTH Joba and Hughes.

    But i would be willing to part with hughes OR joba as the centerpiece of a Doc Halladay deal.

    • JMK aka The Overshare

      I wouldn’t trade Montero for anything.

      Just off the top of my head: King Felix, Lincecum, Pujols, Hanley, Mauer.

      Hell, I’d trade him for Wieters.

      • Free Mike Vick

        forgot to add the damn smiley face.

        you know not everything needs to be taken seriously….you know?

        • JMK aka The Overshare

          Your use of sarcasm is baffling. Seriously, you’re a hard read.

          • Free Mike Vick

            How bout you just take most of what i say sarcastically? ….it will work better that way.

            plus…idk if i would trade Montero for Mauer anyway…Mauer’s a FA next year.

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              How bout you just take most of what i say sarcastically?

              I mean, for Mosakes, the guy’s name is Free Mike Vick.

              HE WAS WHO WE THOUGHT HE WAS!! NOW, IF YOU WANNA CROWN HIS ASS, THEN CROWN IT! BUT HE WAS WHO WE THOUGHT HE WAS!

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Touché. He should have said:

        “I wouldn’t trade Montero for anything except for players who would never be traded, like Felix, Lincecum, Pujols, Hanley, and Mauer. So, basically, I’d only trade Montero in deals that would never happen because the other team wouldn’t be interested in trading that guy anyway. Moot.

        • Free Mike Vick

          don’t you have a mike cameron fangraph to go read???

          here: http://www.fangraphs.com/graph.....091006.png

          that will keep you busy.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            Mmmmmmmmmmmm…

            (grabs bottle of lotion and box of tissues; locks door to basement to keep mother out)

            • JMK aka The Overshare

              FOR THE LAST TIME, IT’S A GARDEN APARTMENT!

          • vin

            This reminds me…

            Mike Cameron is #11 on the all-time strikeout list.

            When he retires, he may very well be number 4 – behind Reggie, Thome, and Sosa.

            BTW – Alex is 18th on the list, and will probably be the all-time leader when he retires.

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

              My favorite Thome/ARod-strikeout stat:

              ARod’s single season high of 139K (accomplished twice) is the 246th highest single season total in MLB history.

              Jim Thome has TEN FULL SEASONS with more strikeouts than that.

            • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

              And yet no one will care, because they’ll be too busy talking about all the other lists Alex tops.

              • vin

                I was surprised Alex is that high on the list already. But that’s what happens when you’ve been a premier slugger for 14 years. I’ll gladly take his 120-130 strikeouts per year.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                  The top of the career K list is full of Hall of Famers. The guys who aren’t Hall of Famers are near Hall-of-Famers and/or perennial all-stars.

        • radnom


          Hanley

          Really? Because according to Red Sox fans his return to Boston is practically a given…..haha

  • JMK aka The Overshare

    Blue Jays get: Joba, Cano, Z-Mac, Betances

    Yankees get: Halladay, Hill, CN Tower

    mryankee gets: Matt Kemp, sound-proof basement

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      (golf clap)

      Throw in Kardinal Offishal, and you got a deal.

      • JMK aka The Overshare

        I might lean toward Sweatshop Union, but he’ll do.

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          I’d say to throw in Melyssa Ford, but we’ve already taken her.

  • pete

    the rays will get halladay for davis, neimann, and breignac, and send him to the giants for buster posey, straight up, mid-season. you heard it here first.

    • JMK aka The Overshare

      You crack me up. I envision the Diamondbacks get him for Mark Reynolds and London Bridge in Lake Havasu, Arizona. You heard it hear first.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Jays should trade Halladay to the Minnesota Vikings for BRETFARR

      ZOMG THAT GUY JUST LOVES THROWIN THE OL BALL AROUND THE OL BALLYARD

  • Lanny

    Makes sense for the Blue Jays to engage the Yankees and Sox because no one else can give prospects plus the extension he wants.

    A rotation of Sabathia-Halladay-Burnett-Andy P-Hughes would set a clear path towards 28. With enough depth in reserve.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      Other teams who could give the Jays the prospects and Halladay the extension that they each respectively want:

      Angels
      Rangers
      White Sox
      Mets
      Phillies
      Cubs
      Brewers

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

        Oh, and darkhorse:

        Orioles (think about it…)

        • Lanny

          But he also has to want to sign the extension. Key part.

          Angels. Mets. For sure. Can’t see the Phils giving Lee and Halladay the same deals.

          Also cant see the Sox giving a huge deal to him when they have to give a huge deal to Beckett with Lester right on his heels and Papelbon complaining about $ every off season.

        • Mike bk

          who would the orioles give up? certainly not tillman, matusz or wieters as the recent callups or jones or markakis.

          erbe/patton/snyder?

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

            I could see the Orioles giving up one of the Tillman/Matusz/Arrieta troika. Just one. It’s probably worth it for them, who need the ace way more than we do.

            One of those big three plus some flotsam and jetsam might get it done.

            • Lanny

              Cant see Baltimore spending 23 mil a yr on a SP when they will have a hard time winning 81 games. Plus I’d have a hard time believing he’d go there after spending a decade in Tor playing against Bos/NY.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

                Well, I did call them a “darkhorse”. The reason they might is that Angelos still fancies himself as a Steinbrenner and is itching to have a team close enough that it’s ready to jump in with a big ticket FA and start competing again.

                They were in the early stages of the Tex sweepstakes, remember, before the big dogs muscled them out. One of these years, they’re gonna say “Fuck it, let’s climb back in this shit as an AL East Big Dog©™”.

      • Mike bk

        if it wasnt for mccourt’s personal issues that should be the team most involved with this. i dont see the brewers going after another ace they wont be able to sign again. Angels never seem to pull the trigger no matter how much they talk trades. Yes, i know they got teix but giving up Kotchman doesnt classify as a real cost to me. The whitesox just made their move for peavy and took on rios salary so not sure they would be involved.

        Tex, Cubs, Mets, Phils along w us and Bos. Depending on the prospects it would take he is a better investment than Lackey clearly so anyone in on Lackey should at least kick the tires on roy. The Phils are the intriguing option because then they could always either include Hamels or swap Hamels to make up some of the lost prospects it would take to get Roy and that would be a great 1-2 w roy and lee.

        • Lanny

          I like Lackey but Doc is head and shoulders above him.

          Tor wouldnt want anything to do with Hamels. Hes close to FA and they’d be in the same spot.

          And you’re right. The Dodgers should be all over this. They have the pieces to make it work. Billingsley and Loney would headline a nice package.

  • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

    I hope the Sox get Halladay. That with added expensive aging stars with no close reinforcements makes me a very happy person.

    • Lanny

      You really want them to build a staff lead by Halladay-Beckett-Lester-Dice K?

      Really?

      And thats assuming Clay Laptop is headed in the deal. Thats a monster staff.

      • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

        If Clay, Kelly, Westmoreland and Anderson are included in the deal then yes.

      • vin

        I’m not sure they would be able to pay Beckett AND Halladay. Dice-BB is on the books for another 3 years.

        Lester, Youkilis, and Pedroia are dirt cheap relative to their contributions, however.

        They’re going to need some offense moving forward – Ortiz, Lowell, and VMart will all be free agents after next year.

        I’m guessing they re-sign Bay – a pull-hitting righty is perfect for Fenway (like Lowell). They’re going to need a 3B/1B, SS, and C/DH. They’re already getting so-so power from Drew, Ellsbury, and Pedroia.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      What do you think they’d offer? They’d be like us and make their top three or four youngsters/prospects off limits. That means no Buchholz, no Anderson, no Kelly, no Westmoreland.

      What does that leave? A Reddick/Kalish/Bowden/Pimentel/Fife deal? That also won’t get it done. That deal is worse than our AJax-centered deal.

      I doubt the Sox do an anti-Cash and buckle and include one of the Buchholz/Anderson/Kelly/Westmoreland in a deal. They won’t gut their farm for Halladay either, which is why he won’t end up their either.

      The Sox and Yankees player acquisition strategies have aligned with each other so as to now be identical.

      • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

        What do you think they’d offer?
        Nothing, honestly. I don’t see them giving up prospects because John Henry was opposed to that during the deadline.

        But I wouldn’t mind if they gave up their top talent. But they won’t. I know that.

      • Lanny

        Epstein and Cashman have the same MO’s.

      • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

        I think both the Red Sox and Yanks are going to wait for when Halladay and Lee become FA’s.

        Red Sox are going to get one of the 2 Aces, Yanks wil get the other.

  • Mike bk

    what would getting roy mean for us next year? does it mean we dont bring back andy? does it mean we permanently move joba or phil to the pen?

    • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

      Well if they got Halladay I would assume Job or Hughes will still start assuming they are still on the Yankees. And since one of them will be missing then Pettitte will probably come back.
      So it’s:
      Halladay
      CC
      AJ
      Pettitte
      Joba/Hughes/some other dude if they are both traded

      • Mike bk

        i dont see them giving up either one for roy personally. if you had to choose who would you give up Joba or Phil?

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

          if you had to choose who would you give up Joba or Phil?

          (thinks)

          Neither.

          But, if I absolutely, positively, gun-to-my-head HAD TO had to give up one or the other, I’d give up… neither.

          • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

            I’m with you.

        • Lanny

          I got to assume that Joba is in any deal for Doc.

          Gut feeling is the org thinks more highly of Hughes long term.

          But who knows. maybe Tor loves McAllister. Maybe they love Romine. Etc

          • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

            My gut feeling? There’s no way Jobber and Hughsie are traded.

        • http://sports-odds.com/images/stories/yankees-arod-teixeira.jpg JobaWockeeZ

          Neither do I but it’s a possibility.
          And if I had to give someone up, it might be Joba. But just barely. He really needs better control.

  • Mike HC

    Romine, Roberston, IPK, Melky … that would be my final offer to the Blue Jays for Halladay.

  • vinny-b

    if Toronto will extend an extension window for Halladay, then i have NO problem moving Joba in this trade.

    Joba Chamberlain
    Ian Kennedy
    Melky
    Mike Dunn

    personally, i don’t expect the Blue Jays can do any better then this.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Ridiculous Upside

      I’d still rather keep Joba and add a free agent starter in 2010 or 2011 than trade Joba away.

      Joba + Halladay/Beckett/Lee/Webb/Felix/Cain/etc. >>>>>>>>> Halladay with no Joba

    • Mike HC

      They can’t do better than that, which is why the Yanks could offer less and still get Halladay. Not that I would do this, but the Jays probably could not do better than Joba for Halladay straight up.

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  • hornblower

    Maybe the Yanks buy all the good players and instead of playing the season they can award the trophy on opening day and the parade could be on the 1st of May.
    I say this as a Yankee fan since the 50’s. Produce some new young stars and watch them grow. That is the joy of being a fan.

    • Mike

      this isn’t the 50’s anymore. today its Win at ALL COSTS. the way it should be

  • Usty

    I tend to get all giddy like when some super-awesome new electronic gadget comes out, and I know I have a perfectly good working whatever it is, but the thought of the flashy new thing makes my brain short circuit to “I must have this” levels. This is the same feeling I get when I read “Yankees have real reason to believe they can land Halladay.” I know, know, know that they don’t need him, but I sure as Hell do want him.

    (the preceding has been a completely irrational statement)

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