What the Red Sox’s ‘full court press’ of Halladay means for the Yankees

Waiting for Andy, again
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In an unsurprising development, the Daily News reports that the Red Sox plan to aggressively pursue Roy Halladay early this off-season. According to the News’s source, the Sox want this done before the Winter Meetings. That puts pressure on the Yankees, who haven’t even determined their 2010 budget yet.

The Yankees do not want Halladay to land with their toughest division rival. With a rotation headed by Halladay, Jon Lester, and Josh Beckett, the Sox would have the best rotation in the AL, and probably in the majors. The Yankees have their top two set with CC Sabathia and A.J. Burnett, but even then they’d have to add a significant No. 3 to match the Sox’s prospective top pitchers. So what should the Yankees do in this situation?

Pursuing Halladay themselves makes sense. As with the Mark Teixeira sweepstakes, the Yankees could pull a huge swing, adding Halladay to their rotation and dubbing it the best in the game, while leaving the Red Sox in the dust. There’s a certain attractiveness to that plan, especially coming less than a year after it happened with Teixeira. The emotion of trumping the Red Sox, however, should not derail the Yankees long-term plans.

As in 2007, the Yankees face the issue of paying in both players and dollars for a front-line pitcher. There are certain situations where this makes sense. In others it doesn’t. The Yankees felt that paying such a bounty for Johan Santana wasn’t worth it at the time, and could feel the same way about Halladay now. He would cost them three or four prospects, plus a long-term extension, possibly in the $100 million range. Is that type of deal worth it for a 33-year old pitcher? Or is Halladay the exception, like Curt Schilling and Randy Johnson?

For the money, Halladay is probably worth it. He’s suffered minor injuries over the past few years, but has spent minimal time on the DL and has kept his innings counts among the highest in the league. In fact, Halladay spent two weeks on the DL in June of last season and still ended up with 239 innings, second most in the AL by one measly inning. His innings totals get so high because he finishes more games than any other starter — he’s led the league (or tied for the lead) in complete games for the past three seasons, and has led the league five times over his career.

The question facing the Yankees is of whether they want Halladay in their long-term plans. This is completely independent of any Red Sox rumors. True, Halladay on the Sox hurts the Yankees, but they can’t make long-term decisions based on their opponents. They have to figure out what players fit their plan, both in terms of the players themselves and the cost of acquiring them. If they feel that Halladay is an organizational fit and that the cost of acquiring him isn’t prohibitive, they should make a move to cut off the Red Sox. If they feel they can achieve the same effect with other pitchers, then they should bow out, even if it means the Sox landing Halladay.

If the Yankees decided to pursue Halladay, I think they have the pieces to top a Red Sox offer. In the Daily News report, Mark Feinsand and Bill Madden speculate that the cost for the Sox will start with starter Clay Buchholz and likely include 2008 draftee Casey Kelly. That’s certainly a strong start to a package, but as the report says, the Red Sox could be loathe to trade him. A Yankees offer of Joba Chamberlain plus Jesus Montero would likely top that. Whether the Yankees are willing to surrender such prospects, however, is a different story. Those are two players with excellent potential.

Based on the above speculation, I think that the Yankees are in an advantageous position regarding Halladay. They have the players to attract Toronto, and I think that unless the Red Sox grossly overpay, the Yankees can top them in most reasonable scenarios. The Red Sox are probably using this aggressive tactic to catch the Yankees flat-footed, putting pressure on them to decide their plans, lest the Red Sox land Halladay without a fight.

It’s easy to say that the Yankees should trade prospects for Halladay, but in a game as complex as baseball, decisions are never that simple. A deal for Halladay would dramatically change the franchise. The Yankees would lose several young, promising players for a 33-year old, plus a likely $100 million contract commitment. If they think that Halladay gives them the best chance to win, in 2010 and beyond, they should pull the trigger. If they think that their young players are poised to contribute, they should back off. The only effect the Red Sox should have on this decision is the timing. Other than that, the Yankees need to make the decision based on their own needs and projections, and not based on blocking a rival.

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Waiting for Andy, again
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  • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

    True, Halladay on the Sox hurts the Yankees, but they can’t make long-term decisions based on their opponents.

    IMO, this is the most important point in this piece and one that needs to be hammered home.

    • JobaWockeeZ

      True, Halladay on the Sox hurts the Yankees, but they can’t make long-term decisions based on their opponents.


      This needs to be said more than twice.

      Anyways I still doubt either the Sox or Yankees will get Doc. They won’t give up the prospects.

      • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

        Eh, I could see the Sox doing it. It would immediately close the gap between the Yanks and Sox and maybe even make them the favorites going into 2010, and they’ve shown the willingness, as an organization, to trade their best prospects before (Hanley).

        If I’m Brian Cashman and they make the move I say good for them and I continue on with my plans, though.

        • Ed

          Agreed. Also, the Red Sox payroll went down the past two seasons, which means they probably have a lot of room to add payroll if they wish. Prospects are less valuable to you if you have a lot of extra money to spare.

          One nitpick on your point though. Hanley was traded in the time that Epstein briefly left the team. That trade may not indicate anything about what the team would be willing to do now.

          • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

            Yeah that was why I said they’ve shown the willingness, as an organization, to make big trades, and didn’t pin that move on Theo. They’ve made other moves under Theo though, like the Victor Martinez trade. And it’s not like the people who made the final decision on the Hanley deal aren’t there anymore, they’re still very important parts of that organization.

            • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

              The V-Mart deal didn’t look to bold to me. From a Red Sox standpoint, it seemed pretty obvious.

              Remember, the Hanley trade was for a young pitcher. Halladay is not young, he’s middle aged.

              The Schilling trade was an absolute steal, and it was very under the radar.

              • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

                Ugh. The point was just that they’re willing to build their team through trades in which they trade prospects for established major leaguers, not that they’ve made the same exact kind of deal in the past or that a particular person made the decisions on all the trades or any of this other stuff. It was just a very general and, in my mind, indisputable, observation.

        • Raf

          i agree with this. they have shown the willingness to trade their top guys if the return is worth it (although the age difference between Halladay and Beckett at the time should be considered as well).
          also trading for Halladay would have a bigger short term impact for them compared to the Yankees. it would be a better move for them to make.

        • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

          Eh, of course I’m biased but even with Halladay I’d still make the Yanks favorites.

          How dominant is the AL East, three years three WS appearances two World Series.

          I don’t think the Red Sox do it though. The Hanley deal was for a young pitcher, and Halladay is middle aged in pitching terms. Schilling was a steal.

    • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

      I totally agree, and I’d add this as important point 1(a):

      “A deal for Halladay would dramatically change the franchise. The Yankees would lose several young, promising players for a 33-year old, plus a likely $100 million contract commitment.”

      I’m afraid of getting seduced by the name/past performance and abandoning what we know to be the most reasonable plan – which is to not trade away our absolute best prospects for a 33 year old pitcher who will cost 9 figures over 4-5 years.

      Forget the name of the player and think about that for a moment, let it roll around in your brain… Our best prospects… Probably Joba or Hughes, PLUS Montero, PLUS more… For a 33 year old pitcher who will demand a long term, big money contract extension.

    • Claudell

      I completely agree that pursuing (and overpaying for) Halladay just to block the Red Sox is nonsense. Of course that’s what the Jays want to have happen — let the Yankees and Sox knock each other senseless in a bidding war. Let’s stick to the plan on not overpay for anyone, no matter what.

  • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

    I make the move for Roy. After that I give a one year offer to both Matsui and Damon and firmly state that this deal might only be good for whoever takes it first.

    I call Andy and offer him something close to last years deal and say we will not be waiting around.

    If we get Roy, we make playing here in the next few years far more attractive $ wise. Rings = WS share, and good marketing $ and good times.

    LETS GET IT! as Young Jeezy would say.

    • JMK aka The Overshare

      You used a Young Jeezy quote to conclude your analysis?

      I’m sold.

      • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

        A man is nothing without Thug Motivation!

        • JMK aka The Overshare

          Heh. I’ll tell that to my boss while I dream about banging his daughter without no rubbers.

          • Mike Pop

            There’s the JMK we all know and love.

  • Tom Zig

    Boston needs hitting not pitching. You can’t win if you can’t score runs.

    By all means, Boston, trade the laptop maestro and Casey Kelly. That move screams of something the Yankees from 2002-2007 would do.

    • Mike Pop

      Agreed. Out of all the options, I’m glad they would go for Halladay rather than Felix, JJ, or Adrian.

      But I would still hate this move because it makes them that much tougher of a team.

    • Raf

      and trading for Halladay would sap their ability to trade for a Gonzalez or Cabrera. if they make this trade, they would have to pay for Holliday or Bay and who knows if they really want to do that.

  • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

    For what it’s worth, Olney’s blog post this morning has a tidbit about Halladay Says Olney:

    Will the Blue Jays be able to generate an offer that will be so good that Toronto ownership can be convinced to move the face of their franchise? I spoke with a talent evaluator who was involved in some of the Halladay talks back in July, and he said that at that time, Toronto could have landed three top prospects. “Now you probably could get one-and-a-half,” said the evaluator, meaning one star prospect plus one prospect who has a chance to be a good major leaguer.

    A longtime executive pegs the Jays’ chances of dealing Halladay at no better than 50-50, because of the possible reluctance of teams to give up enough to satisfy the club leadership.

    I’ve said before, but to repeat myself, the Jays will need at least a bona fide young Major Leaguer to replace Halladay and probably more. I don’t know if the Red Sox are willing to give it up.

    • Tom Zig

      so like Buchholz and one of: Anderson, Kelly, Westmoreland?

      • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

        At least.

      • http://www.teamnerdrage.com leokitty

        Anderson shouldn’t be in the conversation with those other two at this point.

        • JMK aka The Overshare

          One bad year. To my knowledge, his talent didn’t suddenly disappear. If he bounces back, he’s still a top prospect. If he puts up crappy numbers again, he all but disappears from any big trade conversation.

          • http://www.teamnerdrage.com leokitty

            He was never the prospect he was touted to be based on his 2008 numbers, that’s part of the issue.

      • Andy in Sunny Daytona

        Fun Fact: Jesus Montero is younger than Casey Kelly.

        • JMK aka The Overshare

          Probably Miguel Angel Sano, too!

          I keed.

          • Andy in Sunny Daytona

            A single tear rolls down my cheek….

          • Tom Zig

            and has more eyes than Wagner Mateo!

            • JMK aka The Overshare

              EYECWUDT.

  • Will

    If Halladay on the Sox hurts the Yankees, then yes, it should be a factor in their decision. I don’t see how one could argue otherwise. With the balance of power relatively close, Halladay could make the difference over the next 3-4 years. That doesn’t mean the Yanks would have to trump any offer, but it does mean they’d be foolish if they didn’t take into account the net impact.

    • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

      The Yanks finished 8 games up on the Red Sox this year. Roy Halladay by himself is not worth 8 wins.

      • Tom Zig

        The Yanks finished 8 games up on the Red Sox this year. Roy Halladay by himself is not worth 8 wins.

        Truuuu datttttt

        • Mike Pop

          He was worth 7.3 this year with the Blue Jays offense behind him. Put him on the Sox, that makes him worth 8 wins!

          Is that the correct way to use WAR?

          • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

            IDK if that’s the correct way to use WAR, but you need to subtract the WAR of the starter they’d be replacing (Dice-k? buccholz?).

      • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

        We do not live in a vacuum. Our old guys are older (we have more old guys than the Sox), we had very few injury issues in 09. The Sox if the make the Halliday deal will not just stand still. They have a full year of VMart. The Laptop thief should be useful all year.

        Right Roy alone will not make up 8 wins for them but Roy plus all the other things I stated could. Even that to me is not a big deal as we still would make the playoffs most likely without him but do you want to play the Sox in the ALCS with them or us having Roy?

        I choose us.

        This time is set up to win NOW, not in 5 years. Lets go for the gusto. If we can win a few more rings in the next 5 years I can deal with a subpar team for a period of years after that.

        • Mike Pop

          The time to win is now, in 2, in 3, in 4, and in the next 10 years. Keeping Montero, Joba, Phil, etc gives the Yankees the best chance to do that.

          I understand the attractiveness that is Roy Halladay, who right now is a top 3 pitcher in the game IMO. That kid on the Royals and Felix are the other two for me. Having Roy, CC, and AJ head the rotation would be pure awesome for the next 3 or so years but I think the Yankees would get more value out of keeping their players over the next 6-10 years than they would from Roy Halladay alone.

          • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

            “Having Roy, CC, and AJ head the rotation would be pure awesome for the next 3 or so years but I think the Yankees would get more value out of keeping their players over the next 6-10 years than they would from Roy Halladay alone.”

            I guess where we differ, and the general disagreement is I would be willing to make that trade off. You would not.

            I am not concerned with value as much as I am winning it all. With Roy in toe I think that happens. Also I am not really sold that if we make a trade we are not better off in the long run as well. It is not a given that Roy will fall apart and Joba becomes the next Clemens.

            I think either way the Yanks are in a pretty good position, so I am happy about that.

            • Mike Pop

              I am not concerned with value as much as I am winning it all.

              Value is winning it all. I believe that the team currently constructed assuming Matsui, Damon, or Cameron, whoever is brought in/back by Cashman is a team that can most definitely win it all again.

              But I am also thinking about the long term where Joba, Phil, and Montero’s production will lead to more success than age 36-38 Roy Halladay. Joba or Hughes will probably never be as good as Halladay is/was but over the next 5 years, their production could be very similar for a fraction of the price.

              I think either way the Yanks are in a pretty good position, so I am happy about that.

              Agreed. This is why I believe the Yankees shouldn’t go and trade the farm for Halladay just so the Sox don’t get him. He is not a necessity for this team to remain a perennial championship contender.

        • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

          Their guys are a year older, too. Chamberlain will most likely be more effective than he was last year and the fifth starter’s spot won’t be taken up by Mitre or Gaudin, but rather someone much more capable in the person of Phil Hughes. The Yankees will also have Rodriguez for an entire season.

          • MatyRuggz

            Agreed. At this point, we’re not asking if Joba and Hughes can contribute at a big league level. At worse, they’re either good back-end starters or set-up men in the bullpen. At best, either of them could still be that shut down ace or heir apparent to Mariano when and if Almighty Mo decides to hang them up (over/under age 50?).

            Montero’s a special bat even if he can’t cut it as a catcher. I know its cliche to say tha tthe ball just jumps off his bat, but i’ve seen him at AA this season and he’s a masher. At this point, I’d rather bet on these guys rather than 3 ace-like years of Halliday (if his pitching arm doesn’t fall off before then).

        • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

          The only problem with appealing to the age issue is that Roy Halladay isn’t young. He’ll be 33 in May, and he’s going to get paid for what he’s done and not what he’s likely to do.

          Look, I’d love to see Halladay and Sabathia fronting a Yankee rotation. The team would rarely lose more than three in a row, and A.J. Burnett would be the third starter. But I’m not willing to pay Halladay his price in money at this stage in his career or to pay the Blue Jays Halladay’s price in young players.

          This isn’t some salary dump a la Bobby Abreu or a trade that can be done through money with a bunch of low-level guys with high upside a la David Cone. This will involve sending on “can’t miss” players to the Blue Jays.

          • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

            “But I’m not willing to pay Halladay his price in money at this stage in his career or to pay the Blue Jays Halladay’s price in young players.”

            So you would not sign Roy as a free agent if he was available? Or did you mean AND instead of or?

            I also have noticed in my time being a baseball fan, more “can’t miss” players miss than make it.

            • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

              I meant “and.” Don’t want to pay Halladay the money for an extension and the Jays’ price. If Roy were a free agent, it would be a no-brainer to go after him.

              I also have noticed in my time being a baseball fan, more “can’t miss” players miss than make it.

              This is true. I can think of plenty over the years of the Yankee Dynasty who never really panned out. But in this case, we’re talking about guys who are already contributing at the Major League level — Joba, Phil, maybe even a Cano thrown in there. I’m not comfortable with that, and the odds are good that in four years, when Roy is 37 and Joba 29 and Phil 28, that Joba or Phil (or both) will be better than Roy is then.

              Win now and not later or win now and later?

              • http://pinstripepalace.blogspot.com/ Brien Jackson

                “Win now and not later or win now and later?”

                Wow, talk about a false dichotomy.

                Also, in 4 years Jeter will be 39, A-Rod will be 37, Posada will be 41, Rivera will be 43, Burnett will be 36, CC will be 34, and Teixeira will be 33. Which isn’t to say the franchise won’t be competitive in 4 years, but clearly there’s going to have to be changes between now and then regardless.

                • MatyRuggz

                  True, but by then one of the upteen catching prospects in the systems will have replaced Jorge (who will be sipping a fruity drink on a beach in PR by then), A-Jax may be patrolling center, Montero will be hitting dingers over the walls no matter where he’s playing, and who knows what other moves the yanks will have up their sleeves between now and then. As one door closes, another opens…

                • http://pinstripepalace.blogspot.com/ Brien Jackson

                  Maybe, maybe not. That’s sort of my point; 5 years down the road is very unforeseeable.

                  Also, the Yankees are not the Marlins. Their ability to be a contender every year is predicated on their ability to constantly bring in quality free agents to maintain a solid team, not their ability to constantly develop 20-somethings.

                • Lanny

                  You have an eye on the future but also an eye on the present and the next 4 yrs of Halladay> Joba next 4.

        • currambayankees

          He’s not worth it and I’d rather have at least a decade of winning rather then a few years. The Yankees need younger position players which right now are Jackson and Montero and don’t have the luxury of trading for 33yr old. I don’t want to through a decade and half of loosing like back in the 80’s or even a 9 yr drought without a championship. Hope they continue to build a strong pipe line from the minors and add FAs or smart trades.

      • Ed

        Halladay isn’t worth 8 wins from a statistical analysis standpoint, but he is really good against the Yankees, and would face them 4-6 times a year. That could sway the standings a lot.

    • JobaWockeeZ

      LONG TERM.
      The Red Sox’s moves should nto factor into their long term plans.

      • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

        Huh? The Red Sox moves should not factor into their own long term plan? I hope that is their logic but somehow doubt it.

        • Mike Pop

          He means Boston’s moves should not factor in the Yankees’ long term moves.

  • Moshe Mandel

    Sometimes, the Red Sox are going to get their guy, and there is nothing the Yankees can do about it that won’t be very costly to the Yankees. You need to build based on what is best for your club, not what is worse for your rival.

    • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

      Co-sign.

      It’s fun to thwart Boston’s plans, a la Teixeira, but only when doing so also fits in with the Yankees’ own plans. Sometimes, unfortunately, they’re going to do their thing and get their guy, and we’re going to have to just do our thing and go to battle. We can’t get so carried away with always trying to ruin Boston’s plans, we have to worry about our own plans.

      • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

        Frankly, if our plans work out we’ll be better than Boston anyway.

      • MatyRuggz

        I say the Yanks stay in the sweeps long enough to run up the prospect cost for the BoSox and cripple their farm system for the next 2-3 years. Lose the battle to win the war. There could be up to 5-6 top-tier starters availiable next off-seasons for money only.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      Sometimes, the Red Sox are going to get their guy, and there is nothing the Yankees can do about it that won’t be very costly to the Yankees. You need to build based on what is best for your club, not what is worse for your rival.

      Just wanted to emphasize this.

  • Johan Iz My Brohan

    Let them have Halladay, I don’t care, we can still beat them.

  • crapula

    Who was that closer the Sox got 2 years ago or last year (Eric whats his name) when we said that adding him doomed us? And then Victor Martinez doomed us and then…

    …Red Sox lineups don’t doom us. Anything can happen. We need to stop yelling fire in a movie theater.

  • Matty Ice

    I would say either Joba and Montero, or Joba, Jackson and Romine.

    I don’t see how Buttholes and Kelly tops that.

    • Tom Zig

      I wouldn’t do that trade. Yikes noooooo thanks

    • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

      I would say either Joba and Montero, or Joba, Jackson and Romine.

      And I would say no, a thousand times.

  • King

    The Yanks want Halladay but there not dealing Montero for him.

    If Montero is dealt it means Joe Mauer or Felix Hernandez are Yankees.

    • Stuckey

      “If Montero is dealt it means Joe Mauer or Felix Hernandez are Yankees.”

      Yes, because the Yankees can impose MLB Marshall law and just demand the players they want.

      • SM

        Actually yes. They can easily say the only players that we will trade Montero for are x and y and hold to that and no one can do anything about it. They do control his rights.

      • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

        Way to miss the point of his comment.

        • Stuckey

          Actually, I think *I* might have missed the original point on rereading.

          I think King was saying that the ONLY players Montero would be dealt for would be one of those two, and not characterizing the chances of the Yankees getting one of them.

          My bad actually…

          • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

            Yeah, now you got it.

    • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

      “If Montero is dealt it means Joe Mauer or Felix Hernandez are Yankees.”

      King, if you can somehow make that happen, hook it up.

    • scoopemup

      Right you are.Montero and others, go only for a Hernandez a Gueteriz, or dare I hope, for Carlos Gonzales.

      • http://www.teamnerdrage.com leokitty

        Carlos Gonzalez or Franklin Guttierez for Montero? Seriously?

        • scoopemup

          Why not,if the Yanks sweeten it a bit with other prospects,and that includes Joba ,Hughes and McAllister.And don’t forget I want The King also.

          • http://www.teamnerdrage.com leokitty

            Well first off the Yankees can’t get Carlos Gonzalez from a team he doesn’t belong to.

  • Tom Zig

    Good thing Hank isn’t running the team. If he heard this news he would have promised something and gone back on it already, given A-rod another 10 year deal, and then traded Hughes, Joba, and Montero for Halladay and Vernon Wells.

  • The Three Amigos

    If you are going to trade prospects and your best prospects for a pitcher and Montero and Joba are names being included… Isnt Josh Johnson the better play as per the post a few days ago.

  • Stuckey

    The evaluation that should be made is what gives the Yanks the best chance to win the next 3 or 4 years.

    You don’t evaluate trades based on what a player might do for you in 2014 and beyond, whether he be young or old.

    • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

      First of all, yes, you do. If you’re going to be paying the player in 2014, you consider what that player is going to do for you in 2014. For a GM to not consider that would be, at the very least, grossly negligent.

      Secondly… Nobody’s saying anything about 2014 here. That’s a straw-man argument. Say we’re talking about Joba or Hughes, plus Montero, plus another prospect or two (perhaps Jackson)… Those are players who will matter way before 2014.

      • Stuckey

        “2014” was for illustrative purposes, not meant to be taken literally.

        Yes, if Halladay wanted an extension through 2014, you of course “consider” that.

        The macro point was, you make the trade on what gives you a better shot at securing titles in the immediate (3, 4, 5 years, whatever is relevant), not half a decade from now and beyond.

        Or more simply put, if “Halladay>>>>what you give up” in the context of winning World Series in the next few years, you make that trade.

        If not, you don’t. And I think reasonable arguments can be made both ways.

        I just don’t see how the Yankees are set-up for 2015-2020 being a major factor in this equation.

        “Those are players who will matter way before 2014.”

        Agreed, if the Yankees will be a clearly BETTER title contender by NOT giving up what they’d have to, then you don’t make the trade.

        But that’s not some secret formula. That’s the definition of obvious.

        • JMK aka The Overshare

          But bear in mind that while adding Halladay increases our odds of winning in the next 4-5 years, there’s a big cost you’re giving up. You’ll be adding lots of payroll to an older team while losing guys that can (not necessarily will) provide just as good, if not better, total performance for close to nothing. It also affects the flexibility of the team. You’ll need to replace LF, SS, C, SP within that 4-5 year timeframe. If you’re giving up Joba, Montero and Z-Mac (hypothetically), while increasing your payroll, it’s much, much more difficult to fill those holes, particularly when your farm has been diminished and your rotation, which had been your big strength during that four-year run, is mostly in their mid-30s.

          • Stuckey

            “But bear in mind that while adding Halladay increases our odds of winning in the next 4-5 years,”

            Then IMO, you DO IT.

            Planning for more than 5 years ahead in sports is at best abstract art, and not even nearly a science.

            Every year when Baseball America does their team-by-team prospect rankings, they also due the “Line-up in 20xx (5 years ahead). It’s an amusing little extra, but never actually comes close to coming to pass as predicted, because that’s not how it works.

            Yanks are going to draft and sign new young players (Chamberlain, always a part of this discussion was drafted just 3 YEARS ago). Montero is nearly major league ready and has been in the system for just a few years.

            Cano and Wang turned into players greater than minor league their scouting reports.

            Eric Duncan turned into nothing and there has been a whole host of pitchers who have come and gone.

            And players like Swisher become available for a relative song.

            Taking a snapshot of the CURRENT make-up of the farm system and predicting their impact in 5 YEARS is guess-work at the very best.

            And that’s not even mentioning the current economics of the game, where more and more serviceable major league players are available at competitive rates in free agency.

            I fully UNDERSTAND the appeal for fans of smartly merging trades, FA acquisitions and a strong farm system to build a decade-long dynasty. It’s a GREAT fantasy, but realistically, injury, the imprecise nature of evaluating minor leaguers and the unpredictable action of OTHER teams means building championships in pro sports are 1 to 3 year proposals.

            If the market doesn’t yield any options that greatly effect your immediate championship potential, then you plan long-term of lack of others options.

            But if a piece can he had that significantly increases your chances for the next couple of years, you take it and don’t look back.

            And let me reiterate I think Montero could be a top offensive contributor as early as next year. I advocate holding on to him if humanly possible

            • JMK aka The Overshare

              Sorry if I was unclear. I totally understand what you’re saying and it’s certainly a reasonable argument. I happen to think that Joba/Hughes + Montero can perform as well or outperform Roy Halladay over a 4-5 year period. I’d say Halladay has a better chance of being better, simply because he’s proven at the ML level that he’s an ace, and Joba’s proven he can get hitters out but has not shown he’s an ace, and I still have concerns regarding his shoulder. Montero, despite being a tantalizing prospect is just that, a prospect. We all expect him to be great, but it’s not set in stone.

              All that said, there are real concerns Halladay could break down as he ages, in addition to the flexibility/depth/financial issues I listed in my previous post. Halladay will give you the best chance in years 1,2. I think 3 is really anyone’s guess, and 4,5 would defer to the Yankee youngsters.

              I don’t think Halladay increases the chances of us winning that significantly over Joba/Hughes/Montero/Jackson or whatever, to justify trading those pieces, especially when they’re projected to fill major voids of an aging team.

              If we replace Halladay’s name for Josh Johnson, I’d be much more receptive to this kind of deal, but even then, I wouldn’t include Montero. I’d definitely do Hughes/Joba+Jackson.

              • Stuckey

                “I don’t think Halladay increases the chances of us winning that significantly over Joba/Hughes/Montero/Jackson or whatever, to justify trading those pieces, especially when they’re projected to fill major voids of an aging team.”

                All understood and somewhat agree. And I’m highly reluctant to part with Montero, because while no prospect is a lock, he seems the most likely to perform up to the high-end projections, and do it fairly immediately.

                THAT said, I think your thought above illustrates two DIFFERENT considersations the means and the ends.

                The means is filling void on an aging roster. The ends is increasing their chances.

                To me, the ends trumps the means, each and every time.

                Aging roster and all, if Halladay moves the needle in a measurable positive direction, you do it.

            • currambayankees

              Okay, then by your own perspective the players you are willing to trade now Hughes, Joba, Montero, A-Jax and ZMac will mater within that 3-5 year period. They give you depth which trading for one player takes away. The fact of the matter is that several of the players are already at the MLB level helping th club win while a few others are likely less then 2yrs from helping. With the youngsters plus the current roster and any FA additions in the near future they have a better chance of continuing to win. By adding a 33yr old pitcher and giveing up youngsters and money they reduce that because they lock themselves into a pattern similar to 2002-2007.

    • Johan Iz My Brohan

      It is also important TO NOT LET THE SOX’ DECISIONS INFLUENCE OUR OWN, if the Sox get Halladay, they add another 20+ million dollar contract, which would handicap them from other FAs and possibly give them a hard time signing their own players to better deals. Their farm isn’t as endless and powerful as the media says it is, so they would have less prospects to deal for other trades like Agonz or Felix.

    • JMK aka The Overshare
  • Richard Deegan

    Rick Rhoden (same age then as Halladay now) + for Doug Drabek + + REDUX?
    If Boston gives up Bucholtz & Kelly +? for Halladay this is a positve for the Yanks. Boston gets to add a 18-20 MM commitment to their payroll for a few years and loses a starter and the flexibility to attract the infield and hitting help they really need this year. Boston without a top-flight SS (or replacing their even-older-than-Yankees hitters) this year is toast, even with a prime-time Clemens (which Halladay is not). Perthaps five Halladays could obviate using their pathetic bullpen, but Doc would start only one day out of five.

  • Ghost of Scott Brosius

    For the damage to our system giving up these prospects would cost, we need to get a young superstar in the middle of or just entering his prime. I’d rather give up a little more and get Johnson or Hernandez. We know Johnson may be available, and I bet Felix could be had for the right price. Right now, I’d rather let the Sox get Halladay, an extraordinary pitcher who will give them another 4 stellar years, and counter that in the next year or two by adding a Hernandez or Johnson, extraordinary pitchers who will give us 10+ stellar years. Let them give up the money and prospects now for an older player, leaving us with the flexibility for the future.

  • Andy in Sunny Daytona

    What happened when Darth Vader told the Emperor that he could convert Luke? It ended the Empire. Vader should have just killed Luke like the Emperor said.
    The Emperor had a plan. They devited from that said plan, and they were destroyed.
    No need to stop the youth movement now.

    • Ghost of Scott Brosius

      That ones on Vader though, not the Emperor. The Emperor was electrocuting the shit out of Luke when Vader stopped him. Can’t blame Palpatine for that.

      • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

        Yes, you can. Luke shouldn’t have been there in the first place. Palpatine let Vader talk him into deviating from the plan, and that was his mistake.

    • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

      The force is strong with this one. I think you just won the Axl Memorial Award for Best Comment of the Day.

      Don’t deviate from the plan. Let them feel the full firepower of this fully operational battle station.

    • Johan Iz My Brohan

      I applaud you sir, for the Star Wars comparison, just one thing… are we still the “evil empire” in this scenario!? :D

      • Andy in Sunny Daytona

        I don’t mind being part of the “Evil Empire” as long as they stick to the plan.

        • radnom

          Its all…part of the plan……

    • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

      Actually Vader was trying for a youth movement by recruiting Luke. I think Joba is Luke minus some brainpower. Roy is like Boba Fett with Jedi powers. Let us go for the gusto. A plan is a plan until you have better options, then it is time to change said plan.

      • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

        Can I ask why everyone thinks Boba Fett is so awesome? Yeah, he looks badass and bounty hunters have a sort of “cool” about them, but Fett does jack shit in films.

        • A.D.

          he’s one of those overrated niche guys that gets a lot of hype despite doing nothing…kinda like saying a guys is great because of grit & intangibles, aka Shane Victorino

          • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

            The original stories of Star Wars Fett was a much bigger character. Harrison Ford threw a hissy fit on set and had Boba’s best scenes cut from the script.

            I like the Victorino injection though. I like Shane but he is wildly over rated like most competent center fielders.

            You mess with Boba you end up like this:

            http://williamleggett.squaresp.....bonite.jpg

            I would rather be dead than be made into a kitchen counter top.

            • Mike Pop

              Yeah, but you’re technically dead either way.

        • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          1) The suit and the weapons are sick.

          2) He was the only one slick enough to track the Millenium Falcon from the Imperial Fleet’s debris field to the Cloud City of Bespin.

          3) He made a deal with Vader in which he netted himself the carbonite-frozen Han Solo to bring back to Jabba the Hutt for a large bounty.

          He was a total bad-ass.

        • DonnieBaseballHallofFame
      • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

        Well if Luke were already on Vader’s side it would have been a good plan, by they tried to give up to much to get him and look what happened.

        • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

          by when they tried”

          Sorry, typo.

      • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

        “Actually Vader was trying for a youth movement by recruiting Luke.”

        I disagree… Vader was trying for a coup by recruiting Luke, while Palpatine was the one who was trying for a youth movement by recruiting Luke. Vader wanted Luke so that he and Luke could rule the galaxy, after overthrowing Palpatine. Palpatine, on the other hand, planned on discarding Vader if/when Luke had been turned to the Dark Side – he was looking to trade in the damaged Vader for the healthier model. Remember that with the Sith there are always only two – master and apprentice.

        /geek’d

        • Mike Pop

          Awesome.

        • AndrewYF

          Exactly.

          Also, I bet Palpatine already knew that Vader planned to overthrow him. Tends to happen when you’re evil for a long time, you get ambition.

          Luke at his side would give the Emperor many more years before he had to worry about betrayal. Vader was on the brink, and Palpatine, greedy as Sith Lords are, wanted more time to rule.

        • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

          That was damn good. I was just goofing around, you actually broke it down to the bone gristle. Golf clap to you.

          • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Mayor Rodriguez

            Ha, thanks. I love way-too-serious Star Wars discussions. Gotta let that geek flag fly.

            • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

              Oops… Changed my name in another thread and forgot to change it back, that was my bad.

              PS, though… This whole coup vs. youth movement thing is actually pretty obvious if you remember the end of Empire Strikes Back… What often gets lost in the whole ‘I am your father’ reveal and obscured by the Vader/Palpatine/Luke plot in Return of the Jedi is that in the end of Empire Vader told Luke that he wanted Luke to join him so the two of them could overthrow the Emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son – he wanted to be the master, not the apprentice. His agenda wasn’t obscured from the audience, we just tend to overlook/forget that part of the whole thing.

              I’m going to go out with my friends now and pretend I’m not a complete f*cking Star Wars geek.

  • Stuckey

    Why are some Yankee fans convinced Felix Hernandez can be “had”?

    Its not even like he plays for a team that has had demonstratively tight purse strings.

    This idea that the Yankees can make a trade for him or he’ll inevitably be available as a free agent seems to be exhibit A on why Yankee fans are often viewed as feeling “entitled”.

    • DonnieBaseballHallofFame

      “Why are some Yankee fans convinced Felix Hernandez can be “had”?’

      ESPN moron filled round tables.

    • A.D.

      Cause Seattle apparently listened to proposal(s) on him last trading deadline, and he’s a FA in a couple years.

      • Mike Pop

        Yes. That is exactly why. Very logical.

      • Stuckey

        And apparently turned down like 4 or 5 pretty damn decent Red Sox prospects.

        And so what if they “listened”? Are there fans out there that believe that GMs will hang up the phone if a fellow GM mentions a name, or put their fingers in their ears and chat “I can’t hear you, la la la”?

        And ALL major league players will eventually be eligible to become free agents if they so choose.

        Not sure its wise for any GM to “plan” or account for acquiring ANY young player. I don’t think Cashman should create a secret Felix Hernandez fund for prospects and/or payroll.

    • scoopemup

      You may be right but, if he can be had for Montero,Joba,and Hughes,well maybe.Throw in Ajax and Mc Allister for them to include Franklin Gueteriz.Carlos Gonzales is very attractive as well.

      • Mike Pop

        Lol @ this guy.

      • JMK aka The Overshare

        Should we try the veal and tip our waitress?

      • Andy in Sunny Daytona

        It’s like watching a baby gazelle walking near a pride of lions.

      • http://www.teamnerdrage.com leokitty

        Carlos Gonzalez plays for the Colorado Rockies what does he have to do with trading the entire farm to the Seattle Mariners in your head?

    • A.D.

      This idea that the Yankees can make a trade for him or he’ll inevitably be available as a free agent seems to be exhibit A on why Yankee fans are often viewed as feeling “entitled”.

      Or perhaps because it’s true of over 90% of baseball players, very rarely these days is a player completely untouchable from a trade perspective & never tests FA waters.

      • Stryker

        yes, but what i think Stuckey is saying is that the mariners, just a few years ago, had one of the higher payrolls in baseball and they – with a new GM – are now more likely to make every attempt to retain hernandez. yet from the comments on this website, i’d say a very very small percentage have actually acknowledged that maybe JUST MAYBE the mariners/hernandez would try to work out a deal rather than enter free agency so we can snatch him up for “just money”.

      • Stuckey

        “Or perhaps because it’s true of over 90% of baseball players, very rarely these days is a player completely untouchable from a trade perspective & never tests FA waters.”

        Fair enough, but that said, my point is you make moves or don’t make moves based on the realistic options in front of you.

        I’m not an advocate of moving Montero for Halladay, but that said you don’t hold onto Montero because you may need him to trade for Hernandez.

        One has nothing to do with another.

        And as for pure money, I’ve seen no indication Hernandez is as far along as Sabathia was a couple of winters ago, when Cashman didn’t make a hard run for Santana anticipating Sabathia.

        First of all, Seattle is NOT Cleveland, and unless I missed something we have less insight into Hernandez’s mindset.

        And there is also an extra year in the equation too, right?

        • A.D.

          you don’t hold onto Montero because you may need him to trade for Hernandez.

          Completely agreed, I think what people are more referencing in these scenarios is that well if the price for Halladay is going to “Y” then why not go bigger with that package and try and get Felix instead, immediatly, i.e. this winter.

          Obviously it might not be possible, though part of the reason the Sox-Mariners deal likely got nixed was some key names missing from their list to choose from.

          • Stuckey

            :Obviously it might not be possible, though part of the reason the Sox-Mariners deal likely got nixed was some key names missing from their list to choose from.”

            Or Seattle wasn’t interested but just did what teams do, they listen for not having a reason NOT too and the conversation got reported which has morphed into “Seattle will consider offers.

            This is a team that improved a ridiculous 24 games from 2008 to 2009, and from some reports seems to be out there looking for deals to make them better now.

            I just can’t see how this team essentially begins a rebuilding process THIS year, unless a team offers them 3 pieces that make them IMMEDIATELY better at the major league level and some minor league blue-chippers to boot.

            The math just isn’t there.

  • RobC

    It doesnt sound like the Jays can get better than a combo of either Joba/Hughes + Montero/Jackson so I would not offer Jackson or Montero.
    Still make an offer to at least force Boston to up theirs.
    (no pun intended).

    Questions on Halladay
    – have his high innings come with high pitch counts?
    – how is his work ethic? Will he keep himself in top shape for the next 5 yrs?
    – what is his influence on young pitchers?

    Getting Halladay to sign an extension should be a given to make the trade

    • Mike HC

      those questions have already been answered.

      Not 100% sure on the innings, but just from memory, the guy pitches 100 pitch shut outs.

      His work ethic is widely praised.

      AJ swears by him as like his all time mentor. I’m sure he is great with the young guys.

      • Mike Pop

        Yeah but he’s kind of a dick. He knocked over a basket of ‘Dubble Bubble’ and said ‘clean it up rook’ to Travis Snider.

        • Mike HC

          Well, AJ also cursed Jorge and threw him under the bus in front of teammates, fans and the media. So I guess AJ got that from him too.

      • RobC

        Then go get him

  • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

    What people don’t seem to get is that the Yankees are NOT a “win now” team. They are a win every year team, which is why decisions have to be made not on whether they’ll be able to give us the title next year, but on how much of a chance we’ll have to win the title in the future as well, which is why I would not trade for Halladay.

  • r.w.g.

    Not sure how I feel about going for Halladay. Most of the time the guy beats us, so obviously there is that. But it isn’t like the Yankees have never dropped 5 or 6 runs on the guy — we have.

    I just don’t know if I’m comfortable giving up Montero.

    Let’s be honest.. the Yankee farm system isn’t bad per se, but it is extremely top-heavy. The Brad Suttles and Kevin Russos are not going to amount to anything. That’s the nature of the beast when you constantly draft at the end of rounds. They would have to really gut the potential impact talent. So would Boston, so I guess it’s a wash in that regard.. but I dunno.

    I’d rather sign Ben Sheets and keep Hughes and Chamberlain.

  • http://www.sportsfrog.com Mister Delaware

    Let them trade the prospects and let them deal with the LT contract.

  • Mike HC

    Considering that you have to pay in prospects and money, the trade should be looked at from an angle of, Big name free agent, Joba, Montero and others for halladay.

    If you are like me, and want big name free agent to be Lackey, then a Halladay for Lackey, Joba, Montero and two others is ridiculous to me. If the Yanks think that Lackey does not want to pitch for them, and that other pitchers in next years class are all going to re sign, then, and only then do you make the deal. If you think there is nobody worth spending money on in the next 2-3 years, then I can see doing it.

  • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

    The Toronto Star, http://thestar.com doesn’t have a current article on Halladay,they do say the Pres Beeston’s comments the other day fueled the rumors.

    The Toronto sun.com hasn’t a current article either.

    This could very well be hyperbole.

  • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

    A LoHud gem:

    I would trade:
    Joba Chamberlain
    Austin Jackson
    Ian Kennedy
    Ramiro Pena

    Yanks would get:
    Roy Halladay
    Vernon Wells + his whole contract…that would be HUGE for the Blue Jays and would give the yankees a legit CF for the time being…everyone knows he can hit and field and he will be playing all on natural grass now, so less injuries for him…you get a good CF and the best pitcher in baseball!!

    look at this rotation:
    CC
    Halladay
    AJ
    Pettite
    Hughes
    ** HOLY CRAP :O** best in baseball

    Lineup:
    Jeter
    Damon
    Tex
    Arod
    Matsui
    Posada
    Cano
    Wells

    Absolutely unbelievable team… repeat WITHOUT A DOUBT

    • Johan Iz My Brohan

      $400 million dollar payrolls FTL!

      • Mike Pop

        I would lose all faith in Cashman if he brought Vernon Wells here.

        I don’t care if the Yankees somehow got Travis Snider and Shaun Marcum in the deal along with Vernon and Roy.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

          Vernon Wells is an absolute dealbreaker. If you offered me Halladay and Wells and Wells’ entire contract for ten baseballs, I’d say no.

          Vernon Wells was below replacement level last year. The Jays could have put Cody Ransom in CF every day last year, and would have gotten more production.

          • KayGee

            not true

          • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

            9, I’d do it.

  • Mike Pop

    Let’s also consider all the money that factors into this. I believe Halladay is making 16 million this year. I’d assume with the trade, they would extend him and probably make him earn more this year by giving him a whole new contract.

    So is it safe to say he would get at the very least – 19 million a year? That’s 19 to him, 23 to CC, 16.5 to A.J. So we’re looking at 60 million for three pitchers. Three pitchers!

    This could take away some flexibility in the future. Would this take them out of the race for King Felix? For Mauer? All those types of players that are worth long term deals. With A-Rod and Teix earning 50 million between the two of them, and three pitchers earning 60 million, that’s 110 between five players. Jeter will require a hefty extension also.

    Something to consider.

    • Mike HC

      You surely do have to take all of that into account. Now, having said that, players are getting paid more and more as time goes on. The Yanks cannot expect to keep the same competitive advantage they have now by keeping a 200 million dollar payroll. It is not 2004 anymore. The payroll will have to increase over the next 5 years or so to keep our same advantage.

    • Stuckey

      “Would this take them out of the race for King Felix? For Mauer?”

      What race?

  • Ace

    Ben Sheets should and will be our answer to Halladay. Beckett walks after this year and our rotations are comparable again.

    CC = Halladay
    Burnett < Lester
    Pettitte Wakefield

    CC = Halladay
    Burnett Wakefield
    Hughes…

    • Ace

      CC = Halladay
      Burnett < Lester
      Pettitte LESS THAN Beckett
      Sheets = Dice K
      Joba/Hughes GREATER THAN Wakefield

      CC = Halladay
      Burnett < Lester
      Sheets = Dice K
      Joba GREATER THAN Wakefield
      Hughes…

      • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

        CC is worse than Halladay.

        • Mike Pop

          I wish I understood sabermetrics enough to somehow say CC will be just as good as Halladay over the next couple of years but I just don’t know how.

          Halladay’s line drive percentage is going up and he seems to be regressing /something i think i remember reading

          • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

            Possibly. But right now CC is not as good as Halladay.

      • http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

        When healthy, Dice-K couldn’t carry Ben Sheets’ cleats to the park for him.

    • Johan Iz My Brohan

      Unless Beckett gets either injured, or wants $$$$$, then he is staying in Boston. They will pay him unless somehow getting Halladay will tie them down.

  • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster)

    From our good LoHud friend CB:

    The yankees and the red sox continue to do off season business in very different ways.

    The Red Sox leak like a sieve. They are literally in on every player and on every trade. They can acquire any player in the league because they have an infinite supply of infinitely attractive young players that are infinitely affordable.

    The yankees simply don’t leak very much and when they do it’s very selective.

    Right now it doesn’t matter what the Red Sox want. It doesn’t matter what the Jays or Anthopoulos want.

    What matters first and foremost is what Halladay wants. He has the leverage in these triangular negotiations. That’s the bottom line.

    Halladay is 32 and has never played for a winner. He is not only a beast on the mound he is a huge competitor. He can’t be sure of how many more peak years he has in the tank.

    At the same time he’s never gotten a huge money deal.

    Roy is likely going to want to play for the team that 1) has the best chance of making the playoffs/ winning the Series; 2) Will give him a 4-5 year extension at somewhere 92-125M on top of his 16M deal for this year.

    If he doesn’t find that situation he is not going to approve a trade. He has the leverage.

    Boston could make a trade for Roy. But if they do so it will be a watershed moment in the Henry/ Lucchino/ Epstein regime.

    To now they have refused to give any pitchers long term big money deals. They have tried very hard to not trade younger, cost controlled players for veterans.

    Trading for Halladay would completely upend their vaunted organizational discipline and philosophy. It will be strategically moving them away from what they believe has made them successful.

    And here’s the other factor they have to deal with – they actually don’t have many young players to trade. Their farm system at the upper levels isn’t very good.

    Trading buccholz is going to hurt because even if they acquire Halladay they will still need another pitcher. Replacing Bucchholz with Halladay moves a starter for a starter – it doesn’t fill out their rotation.

    Casey Kelly is perhaps the most talked about low minors prospect since Justin Upton. Maybe Alex Rodriguez. He’s pitched for half a season – that’s it. And he split that half season between low A and high A.

    He carries huge risk like any player in the low minors does.

    Their other vaunted prospect Ryan Westmoreland hasn’t even played in low A yet – he’s only played in the Staten Island league.

    This trade is not going to be easy for the Sox to make in any respect. And if they do execute it they will have completely changed the core strategy that made them a success to begin with.

  • Mike bk

    As much as i dont want to see Roy on the Sox for next year or the many years to come after potentially the one fact i dont see mentioned here is that if Laptop and Kelly are dealt to get it him it means no Adrian Gonzalez in Bos and adding offense to the pitching they already have scares me more then adding a pitcher for them. Also Beckett, Halladay and V-Mart would all be up in a year and while the 25 mil saved on Papi and Lowell would help pay that at least as of now papelbum would need another arb deal so you are talking at a minimum of 65 more likely 75 mil for those 4 and that is added to whatever it costs for bay or holliday this year and all 4 would want longer deals which the sox hate. Them adding offense scares me more than pitching so if adding roy takes away prospects and doesnt net them cost controlled offense like Adrian that might be a good thing long term for the yanks.

  • mryankee

    I dont mind the Sox getting Halladay as long as the Yanks add a pitcher of the same quality. Do not tell me Lckey fits that bill. How can anyone say that Hallday-Lester-Beckett is good for the Yankees. The Yankees should make teh deal you dont hand a w/s title to your cheif opponent when you can take that piece for yourself. Of course yu have to react to what your opponent is doing why would you let that team get stronger while you get weaker. The Yankees have to act and act now. Where the Hell is Cashman now is not the time for vacations and such they have to stay involved on this, Halladay to Boston is bad news for the Yankees.

    • Mike Pop

      Where the Hell is Cashman now is not the time for vacations and such

      That was my favorite part of your rant.

    • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph Pawlikowski

      We all know you don’t understand how complex systems like this work, but why do you have to constantly remind us?

      • mryankee

        What is complex? The Red Sox offer whatever they offer and the Yanks offer whatever they offer and the best deal wins. Why is that complex? How would they (red sox) get Halladay without giving up 2 of three Bard, Bucholz,Ellsbury. How does Casey Kelly get teh deal done. Cant the Yankees top that offer? Your telling me CC-AJ-Halladay while taking him from the Sox does not win it all next year.

        • http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph Pawlikowski

          I’m referring to your “this needs to get done now” line. Any trade takes time, and a trade this complex can take weeks. Just chill.

          • mryankee

            Your right but the Sox are trying to sreal him now and I hope the Jays would check in with the Yanks before acct the sox offer. That is what I mean t about where is Cashman and why are they waiting until the end of next week to have a meeting with the Steinbrenners?

            • Mike bk

              if it costs them Kelly, Clay and Bard the yanks should let them empty the system on Roy. The yanks can counter if they want by emptying (the upper levels of) there’s on a much younger ace like Felix. Joba, A-Jax, Z-Mac, Romine should at least intrigue, though i figure Montero would have to be involved to get it done. A steep price to pay when you are talking about Joba + 3 of the top 4 if not the top 3 in our system, but Felix is 23 vs Roy at 32.

              • Stuckey

                Good gracious…

                Out of Chamberlain, Jackson, McCallister and Romine there isn’t a SURE major league star in the bunch. And that doesn’t change even if you add Montero.

                Hell, there is only ONE sure major league PLAYER in that bunch.

                Why would that intrigue” Seattle? They won 85 games last year, improving 24 games over the year before.

                One major leaguer whose best success has come as an 1-inning reliever and a handful of prospects that aren’t that highly rated doesn’t even get you CLOSE to a 23 year-old Cy Young contender.

    • Stuckey

      “The Yankees have to act and act now. Where the Hell is Cashman now is not the time for vacations and such they have to stay involved on this, Halladay to Boston is bad news for the Yankees.”

      No marque free agent is going to sign and no team is going to make a deal for a marque without at least knowing what the Yankees intentions are.

      If Cashman asks a team to wait a week, they’ll wait a week.

      It’s no more complicated than that.

  • john adams

    I say let the red sox get halladay and counter it and make the trade for king felix.
    joba,jackson,z-mack,IPK,romine, + a b/c prospect

    • http://pinstripepalace.blogspot.com/ Brien Jackson

      Awesome. And then we can trade Montero for Linecum straight up.

  • MikeD

    As much as I’d love to see Halladay fronting the Yankee rotation (and, yes, I’d rate him ahead of CC, who would be our #2), I’m not in favor of trading a top-flight young pitcher (meaning Joba or Hughes) AND trading our best hitting prospect in the last twenty years (and no doubt another lesser prospect) for the right to pay $100 million to a 33-year-old pitcher.

    That said, there’s two reasons I keep considering it, and I’m sure they’re the same two going through the collective mind of the NY Yankees front office. 1) Halladay is probably the best pitcher in the game. He not only has accomplished what he has in the AL, but he’s done it in the AL East where his team has to face the line-ups of the Yankees, Red Sox and Rays for almost 60 games out of hte 162-game schedule. He is more of innings-eater than even CC. 2) He may end up going to the Red Sox.

    This is Santana all over again, and the Red Sox and Yanks might be playing each other again, hoping that Halladay goes elsewhere, yet I think the Sox are more serious this time. They also love power righties. I think the Yankees will say no, but they have to consider it.

    Pitching wins in the playoffs, and this would give us a deadly combo for several years to come. Yet, if we’re going to trade a package that includes Joba and Montero, I’d rather it be for King Felix.

    • mryankee

      Why say no? I do not get this and I am asking again how does Bucholz and Casey Kelly and two other prospects get this done? Why could the Yankees not top that without giving up their entire farm system? Do you guys not see how bad thismight be for the Yankees? Your acting like Halladay is some medicre pitcher? How will you all feel if the Sox get Halladay and they win it all? At least the Yankees can do something to prevent that from happening. BTW do not tell me they dont makemoves to block the sox. Mark Teixiera was just as much about blocking the sox as it was getting better.

      • Johan Iz My Brohan

        Q: Why say no?
        A: Why say yes?
        Q: How does Bucholz and Casey Kelly and two other prospects get this done?
        A: That would very well get a deal done
        Q: Why could the Yankees not top that without giving up their entire farm system?
        A: Why do we need to top that, and why give up the future and kill the payroll.
        Q: Do you guys not see how bad this might be for the Yankees?
        A: Not bad at all, let the Sox have their guy, we can beat still beat them.
        Q: Your acting like Halladay is some medicre pitcher?
        A: No, we’re not, but Halladay will cost prospects, another huge contract to keep, and he is getting older, who knows how much he has left in the tank.
        Q: How will you all feel if the Sox get Halladay and they win it all?
        A: They already won twice this decade, who cares anymore, they’ll win again, eventually.

        At least the Yankees can do something to prevent that from happening.
        –By not making moves they don’t need to make…

        Do not tell me they dont makemoves to block the sox.
        –Both teams are guilty of that in the past, duh.

        Mark Teixiera was just as much about blocking the sox as it was getting better.
        –We needed a real first baseman who could hit and replace Giambi, Tex fit the bill perfectly. We NEEDED him, the sox did not.

        • http://pinstripepalace.blogspot.com/ Brien Jackson

          “…and why give up the future…”

          Also, this is ridiculous.

    • http://pinstripepalace.blogspot.com/ Brien Jackson

      “This is Santana all over again…”

      No it’s not. In the Santana trade, you were looking at a very good chance that a substitute would be available on the free agent market a year later. That’s not the case with Halladay.

      • Mike bk

        well when Beckett, Roy, Cliff Lee, Brandon Webb are “potentially” out there you are looking at more.

        • http://pinstripepalace.blogspot.com/ Brien Jackson

          Halladay is probably going to sign an extension, and none of those other 3 are substitutes for Halladay IMO.

          The closest available substitute through free agency is Felix after the 2011 season, but that would require a 2 year wait, and I don’t think it should be taken as a given that he’ll get to free agency that early.

  • Ace

    Yanks 2013 rotation…

    Lincecum
    King Felix
    CC
    Joba
    Hughes

    • Meat Loaf

      1. Where is Burnett?

      2. You realise that is the most expensive rotation in history, right?

      Lets assume Joba and Hughes make $10M a year by that time. CC is $23M. Felix is $25M…. so is Pot Head. You’re looking at almost $100M for 5 players. Funny guy.

  • http://pinstripepalace.blogspot.com/ Brien Jackson

    I obviously have no idea what sort of budget the Yankees are looking at, so I’ll just leave dollars figures non-cotingent as something unknowable. If X move can’t be budgeted, then it can’t be budgeted. But I really have no way of knowing what sort of budget the franchise is looking at or what players they’re willing to add some extra pennies to go after, so I’ll just leave that aside.

    Everything else being equal, I’d be willing to part with Hughes, AJax, and a couple of C-level prospects for Halladay. If that doesn’t get it done then that doesn’t get it done. At the end of the day, I just don’t have as much faith in a CC-Burnett-Pettite-Joba-Hughes rotation as most here seem to, and the chance to add Halladay to the top of that rotation for the next 4-5 years seems worth it to me. Let’s face it, the Yankees are an aging team, but they’re still getting good production out of their aging guys. Might as well try to rack up the championships while we can, all else being equal.

    There’s also Chapman to consider. Just saying.

    • mryankee

      Thank you someone gets it-You have a chance to add ONE OF THE BEST PITHERS IN THE AL to your staff and take him from your division rival. This should not even be a question.

      • Lanny

        Why should anyone have faith in Joba and Hughes in the rotation together?

        If you can get Halladay for one of those guys than you have to do it.

  • currambayankees

    Couldn’t have put any better myself. Personally, I don’t think the Yankees should trade for Halladay because it is too much to give up for a 33yr old. It wasn’t worth it for Santana who was younger and a lefty and it isn’t worth for Hallady. I don’t care how much better he’s been then Santana, he’s on the wrong side of 30. Plus the youngsters the Yankees have, have the ceiling to be great in their own right at the fraction of the cost. There is also a FA class next year that is going to have some great pitchers if the kids don’t continue to progress. I hope Cash continues to stay patient and waits for the right price which to the Yankees right now should be just money. Let the Blosox shoot themselves in the foot by giving up too much. I’m pretty sure Buckholz and Casey alone won’t get it done.

    • http://pinstripepalace.blogspot.com/ Brien Jackson

      “I’m pretty sure Buckholz and Casey alone won’t get it done.”

      Who looks like they’re offering more?

      • currambayankees

        Hope I understand your question, but to me some of the Yankees GM’s on this site don’t mind being fleeced because they are willing to give Hughes/Joba/Montero and host of others for Hallady so the Yankees look like their giving more. I say keep the prospecst and let someone else get fleeced for a 33yr old pitcher.

  • Michael Kay

    You know, 2 years ago, even a year ago this would have been a huge deal, but honestly if they want him so bad who cares?

    Roy Halladay is a great ACE, but its not like he guarantees The Red Sox run away with the division. I think Sabathia, Burnett, Pettitte matches Halladay, Beckett, Lester. So if the Red Sox make the deal, go sign Lester. If Johan Santana wasn’t worth our top prospects, Doc Halladay shouldn’t be.

    So I say I hope Toronto stands their ground, and Cashman plays just to drive the Red Sox fee up. Make them unload prospects and limit their chance at fleecing some small market team out of their best hitter come July.

    • Michael Kay

      go sign Lackey I meant

    • mikeymike

      Yep this is what I don’t get…we passed on Johan at age 29 …now we want Doc at age 33 for about the same package?

  • http://pinstripepalace.blogspot.com/ Brien Jackson

    ” I think Sabathia, Burnett, Pettitte matches Halladay, Beckett, Lester.”

    I think I want what you’re having.

    • Michael Kay

      well I promise you next October, if Halladay, Beckett and Lester go a combined 71-0 with a 0.56 ERA on Boston’s way to a World Series title I’ll send you a cheesecake.

  • Free Mike Vick

    Do i want Doc Halladay?? YES!

    thats it. thats all i got. no sarcasm. no bashing nerds. no bashing UZR. Short. Sweet. To the point.

  • Evil Empire

    I don’t believe Halladay is worth the contract extension plus the big time prospects he would require. If it took just one of Joba/Hughes/AJax + 1 or 2 lesser valuable prospects, it may be worth considering but from the sound of it, it’d cost more.

    If Boston is willing to send away Bucky, Kelly, and other legit prospects and sign the guy to his mega-deal then you know what? Good fucking luck. But if that happens, I would really hope that lights a fire underneath the Yankee’s ass to sign Matt Holliday. That would re-balance the scales back into the Yankees favor, as they’d be stacked offensively and still have a quality rotation with the organizational depth to back it up.

    • http://pinstripepalace.blogspot.com/ Brien Jackson

      I like Holliday quite a bit, but that doesn’t really make a lot of sense, unless you’re shipping Swisher out of town in the near future and moving Holliday to RF.

    • http://pinstripepalace.blogspot.com/ Brien Jackson

      Also, you’d be locking up more money and years in Holliday than Halladay, to fill a position that’s less of a pressing need.

      • Evil Empire

        Well, I was thinking more along the lines of Holliday as the left fielder, since, y’know … we don’t have one on the roster right now. I personally would qualify that as a “pressing need”.

        I’m not convinced Holliday will take more money and years than Halladay. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Matty H signable on a 5/90 to 5/100 deal based on my perceived pulse of the market. If someone offers a 6 year deal for more money than I wouldn’t want to top that, but I could legitimately see a 5/100 deal also being the high bid.

  • Grover

    I’ve seen Wells included as a joke but what if he was the price of Halladay? How little would the yanks have to give up? Kei Igawa? Wells is a less than desirable center fielder but has an arm and hit well away from the dome and could play a corner outfield spot. I think he makes $12.5M in 2010 and then jumps to $20+M in 11&12. Is it out of the realgm of possiility?

    • Evil Empire

      Yeah, it is absolutely out of the “realgm of possiility”, for a variety of reasons.

      • Lanny

        The Wells contract is a nonstarter.

        Its not like Toronto’s owners are going bankrupt here. If they trade Doc they are going to want a premium piece back and that goes out the window if they make a team take Wells.

  • Lanny

    It’s a no brainer to add Halladay if the price is one of Joba or Hughes.

  • JM

    “Not so fast, says John Tomase of The Boston Herald. He writes that a team source “made it clear today the Red Sox recognize that swinging any deal for Halladay will likely be a lengthy process.” The Winter Meetings are just 11 days away.” — MLBTR

    That’s all I got.

  • adayoff

    There are ways that the Yankees could trade without giving up the farm. Those ways start and end with Vernon Wells. Imagine a trade for Halliday expanded to be Halliday and Wells for Swisher and Hughes.

    So the Blue Jays have dumped a ton of salary in their OF. The Yankees make a modest improvement and pray that Wells can return to form. Swisher, who is overpaid completes his contract in Toronto.

    Toronto says goodbye to the best pitcher in baseball and welcomes a young starter who goes right into the rotation.

    In essence the Yankees have bought Halliday and gone around the Bowie Kuhn “not good for baseball” rules that have been in effect since Vida Blue trade ws nullified.

  • wiljaq1

    John Lackey, plus keep prospects, plus have freedom to trade for any needed parts come July.

  • wiljaq1

    Lackey or Ben Sheets.

  • Meat Loaf

    If you asked me what kind of team was going to try and make this move, I would tell you a fringe contender or a wild card team. If you told me the defending world series champions, my head would probably explode. Boom.

    So the Yankees, who, if they resign Pettitte, have a reasonable 5 man rotation, need to send their most valuable prospects/young players to improve the rotation? I don’t even know why the Yankees are calling, less trying to drive up the price.

    Sit back and watch Boston mortage the farm for him. Their biggest problem wasn’t pitching last year, and even if this means they have the best rotation in baseball, it doesn’t garuntee them success. Their offense has appeared to deteriorated significantly over the last few years, which makes my Yankee body feel all sorts of good.

    The Yankees have made smart baseball decisions over the last 18 months or so. No reason to ruin this streak now.

    • adayoff

      Well Meatloaf, maybe it is to keep the Red Sox from having the best rotation in the AL East. If having Halliday is worth 6 more wins per year than someone like Boston’s potential #5 starter (Beckett becomes #2, Lester becomes #3 etc) then the Red Sox go from a possible record of 96-66 to 101-61. That should cause you some discomfort. Further consider three and four-pitcher rotations in the postseason.

      The good thing to remember in this is that when the Yankees and Boston went after Santana, both made a big big show in the beginning and then let him go to the Mets for a couple of jock straps.

  • Spike Owen

    And of this talk of depleting farm systems makes it all the more mind-boggling how the 08 champs got the 08 AL Cy Young award winner for a package that pales in comparison to what many have speculated it will take to get Halladay…

  • Spike Owen

    “Sit back and watch Boston mortage the farm for him.”

    I’d at least make some calls and offers to insure that mortgage comes off and the Sox don’t get him for their equivalent of Ben Francisco.

  • themgmt

    Wells is owed what, 100M? If you take even half of that the Jays can’t expect much in return.

    Throw him in LF next year and use him as the most expensive 4th OF in the history of baseball after that.

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