Dec
07
Intriguing Rumor of the Day: Center field options
BySo here’s a fun puzzle to play with a pair rumors from Joel Sherman. First, he says via Twitter, that the Cubs “want Mike Cameron for CF, but so might Yankees, which could be interesting since Cubs like Melky Cabrera.” Then, in his next update, he says that a team official from a club interested in Curtis Granderson believes the Yanks “really want” the 28-year-old for their outfield. So what do you think? Sign Cameron for a short deal, acquire Granderson and flip Melky to the Cubs for some prospects? If only it were that simple.
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The Mason Williams Watch
Joel Sherman
He stinks he stinks he stinks!
Duke Phillips: I’m Duke Phillips, and from now on I’m speaking my own mind. First, I’m going to tell you what I’m really going to do as president. I’ll run this country like I run my company. I’m going raid the pension fund, dump chemicals in the oceans, and sell our best assets to the Japanese.
Ronald Reagan: Ooh! Looks like Reaganomics is making a comeback.
Duke Phillips: Half you states are in the toilet, and you’re not coming out! New York, you know what I’m talking about. California, kiss your smoggy butt goodbye! New England, you’re going back to Old England.
It would be so nice if it were that simple. If we landed both of those guys do you play Gardy in the OF and move Swisher to DH when all the old guys are playing the field?
You could. It’s not a bad idea: Gardner in center and then split left and right with Cameron and Granderson with Swisher as the DH.
Cameron + Grandy + Gardy = Nothing Falls In
that lineup defensively would to go back to last night’s post would match up with Seattle’s this year.
I would put cammy in right, granderson in left i think.
That’s a lot of strikeouts too. But they don’t matter…..
sign me up!!
Sign Cameron for CF and do you think Melky could net Marmol, maybe? IMO, Melky might be MORE valuable than Marmol…at this point anyway.
Of course this is assuming we sign Damon as well…who else is going to play LF if we don’t?
I doubt the Cubs trade Marmol, and he had a 1.46 WHIP in 2009. Pass.
Marmol walked 65 guys in 74 innings last year.
Yeah but look at those 2008 numbers…his number seem to be all over the place as the years have gone on. A stellar year followed by an erratic one…followed by a stellar one…and so forth.
What Mike, you don’t want the excitement that comes from having runners on base late in ballgames?
Please please please get Granderson and Edwin Jackson too and this offseason is over. That is of course Pettitte stops being greedy.. oh yea and Damon too. That’s my wish list.
That is of course Pettitte stops being greedy
How could Pettitte be greedy if he hasn’t even received a contract offer from the Yanks yet?
i love how it is andy should stop being greedy but he wants Andy, Granderson, Damon and maybe Jackson, but he is not being greedy as a fan.
Jackson is arb eligible with a $2.2M contract last year. Retaining 2 players and acquiring 2 via trade (and obviously getting rid of some along the way – I’m thinking Melky) and calling it an offseason.. how is that greedy? How do you know I’m a he?
Mike BK. I understand your point but Andy is many many times a millionaire (just off his salary last year) because we as fans allow him to be.
I do not know if Andy has even seen an offer yet as I am not one of the Brothers Hendricks.
Hadn’t read the 11:54 update.
How come nobody ever wants Brett Gardner?
in a trade?
Well I say its because he is essentially a one tool player.
Grit is a tool, man.
That was the tool he was talking about.
I ask the same question all the time, the answer I keep coming to is he sucks. Although McCarver told me he is the best bunter in the league, go figure…
and then he followed by failing to bunt
I know (and looked like absolute horse shit trying to bunt), but you are missing the point – Mc Carver SAID he was a great bunter so he HAS to be (Timmy actually saw three minutes of a Yanks game he wasn’t broadcasting once).
Plus the man caught Bob Gibson….
“Timmy actually saw three minutes of a Yanks game he wasn’t broadcasting once”
And maybe ten mins of one he was.
Too white.
I want Brett Gardner…………………………………………..to play in SWB.
I really like Granderson, until I look at his stats the last three years:
OPS
.913/.858/.780
Factor in that and his defensive woes last year and boy he’s a gamble.
Yanks need Melky (he gives them at the very least average production in every facet of the game) and unless the prospects are ML ready high ceiling guys, you pass. The prospect of a struggling Granderson, Damon and Swisher with Gardner as the backup isn’t very appealing.
If Melky put up a .780 OPS that would be a career year for him. No matter what, Granderson is an upgrade. The only caution (and the reason the Yankees hopefully will NOT acquire him) is that he is putrid against LHP.
It would be a gamble, but not because of anything Melky can do.
His splits vs lefty pitching is something awful.
Yanks need Melk for more than just CF, they need him for the corners late in games – no need to give him away as Ben has been dying to.
The Yanks don’t need Melky for the corners if they get defenders who are better than he is. That’s a ridiculous argument.
So as long as they get Granderson, Cameron and Ichiro they can let Melky go?
In a perfect world I would want Cameron, Damon, Matsui, Pettitte, and Lackey. If i need to cut one of those guys, it would be Cameron and stick with Melky and Gardner in center. If I need to cut out two of them, it would be Cameron and Matsui, then signing another, cheaper, riskier DH. Pettitte, Damon and Lackey to me are what the Yanks should be focusing hard on. That is if I was GMing of course.
Just as an aside, signing Lackey would also alleviate the need to pick up another reliever or two by moving Hughes back to the pen to start the year.
Cameron is more of a luxury signing to me. If the Yanks want to spend the extra cash, he is perfect. If they are truly looking to cut payroll, rolling with Melky/Gardner/AJax makes far more sense while spending the money elsewhere, like pitching (Lackey as my personal preference).
I agree on everything except Lackey. He’s not necessary. I’d rather sign Pettitte and then another higher risk/lower cost starter like Sheets, Harden, etc. Or even Wang. We don’t know when Wang will start…but as I read on another site…the only guy out of these risky gambles to start over 200 IP in the past 4 years…is Wang. If you can get that 20% decrease in arbitration from Wang’s $5M salary last year…he becomes an interesting option.
We saw the Red Sox try this strategy when they signed Smoltz and Penny. Did not work out. Every situation is different, and every pitcher is different, but we just saw how miserably that strategy worked out for the Sox.
Every off season there are supposedly high risk, high reward, one year reclamation projects. In my opinion, those are not great options. It is like playing the lotto. It is only $2 for the ticket, but you have a chance at winning 300 million. It is for suckers. You think these guys are cheap, but instead of taking Lackey for the next five years and 16 million (?) per, sitting back and relaxing, you end up taking chances on like 5 or 6 of these guys over the next four years and the price adds up, without the production.
And if any of them do blow up lottery style, they will get too expensive to sign next year, and you are back at square one, looking for cheaper options. It is not a good strategy for long term success.
Rocco Baldelli would also like a word with you…
Trust me, I’ve had a similar viewpoint as you on this. But no pitcher is guaranteed. You’re essentially gambling on all of them. Albeit, some more than others. The Red Sox didn’t work out, you’re right. But they grabbed 2 MUCH OLDER National League pitchers to come in and make an impact immediately for them. The risky gambles I listed are much much younger and have pitched in the AL (successfully) at least at some point in their careers.
I just don’t want to sign another long term contract if we don’t have to. We already have $95M dedicated to the 2012 Yankees team…and we haven’t even re-signed Jeter yet!
In 2012, the Yanks will have CC, AJ and Lackey (under my GMing regime) under contract, including their entire infield assuming they re sign Jeter. Hughes and Joba will also be in or approaching their prime. The Yanks will be expecting one of their 90 catching prospects to contribute at that point too, the obvious pick being Montero. AJax will also be contributing for a year or two at that point. I don’t see how that team is a bad thing. Fill in the rest of the cheap and you have a dominant team.
I share the same viewpoint as Mike HC on this one and will add that the Yankees do not need to shop at Goodwill. They can shop at Saks but use their leverage, power, and money to negotiate market or at least near market terms. I do not want to see a lot of overbidding and bidding against ourselves like last year.
I really like this approach. I’d also like Lackey and Pettitte with one starters slot for Hughes\Joba but I realize that would be very unpopular here.
Agree on Cameron as a “luxury” as well – and he might not look so luxurious in pinstripes.
How is Cameron a luxury if Lackey’s not?
Because Cameron would be a one year plug in while the Yanks wait for better long term options, while Lackey will take a spot in the rotation for the next five years. This year he will take Hughes place, who will be used to fill the huge bullpen hole we would have had if he started, and long term will take Pettitte’s spot. The Yanks NEED more pitching, whether you believe that is in the bullpen or rotation. Lackey fills that need. As for the outfield, even if it is considered a need, Cameron is only a one year stop gate.
Word
to flush this arrangement out more, who would it take to get curtis and who would we get from the cubs for melky?
i doubt it but with starlin castro rising so fast in their system any chance they would deal hak ju-lee? probably not in a deal for melky even if they would.
You know what’s funny? I saw Starlin Castro play at least 20 times last year, and I never thought he was anything special. Dude made a ton of errors, and his bat never seemed that good. It just proves the Fact that Andy from Sunny Daytona cannot judge talent when drunk.
Did we really need the “when drunk” qualifier?
I mean, are there times when you’re not drunk? That’s like saying “Paris Hilton when sticky”.
Beer is a good reason to go to a baseball game, right?
(btw…Josh Vitters is overrated too.)
isnt beer the perfect food…….its got barley an hops etcccc ?
>It just proves the Fact that Andy from Sunny Daytona cannot judge talent when drunk.<
Which is what seperates you from Stick Michael…
That and his numbers weren’t super exciting last year
No.
As for Granderson, I like that the Yanks are in on him. No sense in assuming he is unattainable. Maybe if the Yanks stick around the trade talks for him long enough we can get him at our price.
EXACTLY.
“So here’s a fun puzzle to play with a pair rumors from Joel Sherman.
First, he says via Twitter, that the Cubs “want Mike Cameron for CF, but so might Yankees, which could be interesting since Cubs like Melky Cabrera.” Then, in his next update, he says that a team official from a club interested in Curtis Granderson believes the Yanks “really want” the 28-year-old for their outfield. So what do you think? Sign Cameron for a short deal, acquire Granderson and flip Melky to the Cubs for some prospects? If only it were that simple.Blah blah blah blah bunch of crap that’s never going to happen Heyman’s been pulling shit out of his ass all winter blah blah blah no point in reading any of this dreck put it in the circular file with the Post and the Daily NewsFixed.
Can anyone tell me where I can pick up a bernie williams t-shirt jersey?
They aren’t on e-bay anymore, and I would like to pick up one for a christmas present.
Thanks!
This isn’t an open thread. Email the authors of the site. Top right of the page.
Or…….
google.com
Yeah, thats why I asked here. Since he isn’t a current player, it doesn’t look like it is available.
oh well.
Please no Granderson.
He might hit 40 homers with the short porch!
I love Grandy, at least his public persona, but yeah, I think trading much to get him would be a mistake. He could be a buy low candidate, but I think we may have already seen his best.
If the cost was Swisher-low, then yeah, do it. But it’s not going to be that low.
I would, hwoever, like to see what the Cubs would give up for Melky.
“If the cost was Swisher-low, then yeah, do it. But it’s not going to be that low.”
Do you mean you would trade Swisher? Or are you saying that we should grab him if we can get him for a human turd like Wilson B?
I mean the price for Swisher. I would not trade Swisher.
Ok good.
I agree. I don’t want Granderson either. Although I would take him over other alternatives…
There was a guy named O’Neill who had trouble hitting lefty’s and played in the midwest too.
Detroit is the Mid-West??
Yeeeeehawwwww!!!
Sign that ol’ rootin’ tootin’ son of a gun, Granderson…or as he’s known in the around here saloon…Cowboy Curtis
Love the Cameron thought (and trading Melky), but no Granderson. Not at the cost of prospects, and not with the .484 OPS against LHP. That’s so bad it’s not even funny.
Granderson would be cool but not at an extreme cost in terms of cost controlled players.
Cameron would be a nice to great move if a one year deal. I doubt we end up with both guys. Granderson seems like that only happens if the Tigers are seriously dumping. I think if the Yanks feel Cameron is their man he will be signed. The Cubs and their horrible mismanagement might be the only thing to get in the way there. They are dumb enough to give the guy a multi year deal. Could gum up the works for us a tad bit.
I’d like Cameron on a one year deal as well (obviously) but a two year deal for him wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world.
I want to have all lanes open for Ajax and or Crawford next year. A two year deal would have to be on a discount on dollars for me to think it is a cool move. Cam aint no spring chicken.
I would think the $$ would be small enough that he’d either become a high priced 4th OF, a trade candidate with the Yankees picking up salary, or a cut and move on, if he sucked, and if Crawford were here/Ajax were ready.
Are you speaking on Cam or Melk?
I believe Cameron.
They are dumb enough to give the guy a multi year deal. Could gum up the works for us a tad bit.
Hopefully they really like Melky and will stay away from Cameron.
I would like Melk as a 4th OF. I do not see the cubbies giving us anything useful for Melk. Only way I see that going down is if the Yanks feel he is not worth the money they have to now pay Melk (like they almost felt last spring)
I would like Melk as 4th OF as well, but if it came down to one team gets Melky, one team gets Cameron, I want Cameron.
Me too. I just do not see it working out in that fashion.
If it could work out, w/o a trade of course, to have both Cameron and Cabrera, I think we’d all be very happy.
I think the chance of this happening is very possible. If Damon moves on and Cam is still not signed I see this happening fast. If Damon is signed by us I would like this set up even more. Damon at his true position DH.
Even if Damon doesn’t move on, it could happen. As you said, he could DH w/Melky in left. Or, you go Damon/Cameron/Swisher across the OF with an actual DH (Matsui? Thome? Johnson? Delgado? Bueller?) and Melky on the bench and Gardner, well, anywhere but the Bronx?
Can someone point me to the stats that show Cameron in a good light, because when I look at his career offense stats he’s average or below average except for power. Thanks!
He’s Torii Hunter, but better defensively.
Minus the hype and less “hes a great guy” writer and national TV broadcaster drivel. At a much lower price tag in years and potentially dollars.
http://www.fangraphs.com/stats.....osition=OF (SAFE)
Look at all dimensions…not just batting average and strikeouts. He’s a good bang-for-the-buck option.
Well hes a great defender at a premium position. His bat might not be the scary but he does have a career 107 OPS+. Which means its slightly above average.
Slightly above average bat + good defense at a premium position is worth the money. Especially for a team like the Yanks who have plus power coming from majority of positions.
http://www.stuffwelike.com/stu....._ny136.jpg (SAFE)
75 BBs per 162
20-25 HRs per 162
Centerfielder
Great defense
Cameron is among the top 10 MLB strikeout leaders every year yet has one of the lowest OPS in those groups. He has no business striking out that excessively while only hitting ~23 HRs and an OBP of ~.340.
2008 MLB K Leaders
His defense is good, no doubt, but otherwise I’m not too thrilled.
Strikeouts are outs, just like groundouts and flyouts and lineouts and popouts. For a stellar defensive CF, Mike Cameron’s .340 OBP is more than acceptable (Hunter .330). Mike Cameron makes outs less frequently than his contemporaries in CF, he’s very valuable.
Not true. Groundouts and flyouts especially have a chance to produce runs. Any batted ball has a chance to put the batter on base via an error. Strikeouts do not. They are the most unproductive outs in baseball and Mike Cameron excels at it.
I’m not particularly caught up in it as he will most likely bat 9th and will not see as many RBI opportunities. All-in-all having an 8-9 bottom of the order (Swisher, Cameron) with the ability to hit 30 home runs is very enticing, despite my point about the abundance of strikeouts that will accompany that same part of the order.
So, don’t get me wrong, I’m for getting Cameron here along with Damon in a perfect world. The strikeouts will be frustrating however, and it’s just something we will have to live with.
Of course, a batter may reach base on a strikeout as well, but I digress.
Cameron is a mistake waiting to happen. A 37 year old center fielder who strikes out 160 times a year. Melky did OK last year.
Guys like Cameron go overnight, don’t be fooled, this guy represents no back-up plan to Damon leaving.
How is Cameron being 37 that much worse than Damon being 36? Damon looked 42 and Cameron looked 32…what is the basis for your argument?
One to three of the following:
–Age
–Low Batting Average
–High Strikeout Total
Those all, obviously, mean bad Cameron’s a bad player.
None of those make him a good option btw.
Plus you know its more than that – he’s got a .316 obp in old Yankee Stadium, his ops last year RH was .748 and Melk’s Close and Late and High Leverage stats were much better (18 RBI vs 3) and better respectively.
Damon in those situations had OPS over 1.000 – that’s a huge difference.
Cammy’s BaBIP was .304 (in a weaker league), Melky’s .288. You touted Cammy’s tough ab’s citing his 3.96 p\PA as similar to Damon’s 4.06. Melk’s last year was 3.87.
So in a sense, Cameron as an offensive player in several categories is about what Melky was last year or less. I specifically mention Melky b\c we already have him in CF and after winning 114 games with him and Gardy, I think the whole CF debate is pretty silly as is replacing Damon’s bat with Cameron.
Cammy also only stole 7 bags last year – wonder why? maybe age?
Everyone is relying on defensive stats and their recollections of what a defensive wizard Cammy is(was) in CF – I’d hate to see a two year deal at 80% of Damon’s cost and find out Cammy is in further decline and Melky at 25 might actually improve on a .752 ops as a CFer and Damon still has an .850 ops to give.
Using BABIP to compare two hitters is nonsense.
What is nonsense is beleiving an out is an out and K’s don’t matter.
Also BABIP was just one thing mentioned but…
BABIP is especially important when you K a ton and have a low obp and are moving to a tougher league in a ballpark not suited to you and when you aren’t as effective against RHP.
Note Cameron’s miserable production except when there’s a 4-runs+ difference in the score. http://www.baseball-reference......9&t=b. Also horrendous stats after the 3rd inning.
7th, 8th, 9th inning, close game? I take either of Gardberra in an instant.
s/b Gardbrera.
A 37 year old center fielder who strikes out 160 times a year. Melky did OK last year.
Guys like Cameron go overnight, don’t be fooled, this guy represents no back-up plan to Damon leaving.
Damon is roughly the same age…so according to you…he could “go overnight” too. Cameron has shown absolutely no sign of decreasing his value…regardless of strikeouts…he’s been incredibly consistent over his career…and actually was worth more last year at 36…than he was in his younger days (if you’d like to get technical)
Look at what Damon did close and Late and High Leverage vs. Cammy (protecting Jeter) and tell me they are comprable.
I’d also point to Cameron’s 7 steals as a sign that he’s slowing down, regardless, he’s not batting 2nd for the Yanks and he’s nowhere near the offensive threat Damon is.
It’s not all about 162 game triple slash #’s…
who cares if he strikes out that much? they don’t matter. an out is an out is an out.
mike cameron is an elite center fielder. yes, he may be on the older side and his power production may not be comparable to damon’s, but the yankees would gain tremendously from the upgrade on offense.
Am I the only one who got excited about that Post article about Granderson?
I think he’d be perfect for the Yanks. Not just in filling the center-field hole, but he seems a good fit in the clubhouse too.
Not to mention he hit like 25 of his 30 homeruns last year to right field. He’s got that same upper-cut swing that brought Damon all those homeruns in the new park.
Get ‘em!
His cost will likely be too high and he has to sit against lefties. No thanks.
Ditto on the concern over the platoon splits. Color me lukewarm on the Granderson front until we hear some of the possible pieces that would be involved.
Am I the only one who got excited about that Post article about Granderson?
Meet Lanny, Bo, and mryankee.
Curtis Granderson:
10:$5.5M, 11:$8.25M, 12:$10M, 13:$13M club option ($2M buyout)
That’s $25.75m over 3 years.
As someone pointed out, he had dropped 130 OPS points over the last 3 years.
Does Detroit know something we don’t?
Detroit knows they don’t want to chance Granderson becoming yet another albatross. The Yankees can easily take that chance.
Nows the perfect time to trade Melky. Coming off a good season. Controllable.
Thank god he’s not black. He’d be harder to control.
Player A
9th inning – .234/321/362
innings 1-3 – 899 ops
innings 4-6 – 760
innings 7-9 – 706
Player B
9th inn. – 435/480/630
1-3 – 656 ops
4-6 – 778
7-9 – 808
Player C
9th – 333/442/639
1-3 – 822
4-6 – 800
7-9 – 931
Player D
9th – 293/310/561
1-3 – 723
4-6 – 932
7-9 – 712
Save us the suspense…who are they, Mysterio??
A, B, C & D being…?
Forget the retreads -get David DeJesus from KC. Yanks must have a couple of players Royals can start. Melky/Gardy stays in CF for 2010. End of story.
If the asking price is Hughes & AJax…
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