Dec
07

Open Thread: Evolution of a rumor

By

We’re just one day into the Winter Meetings, and already we have a week’s full of false reports. Exactly how these start is anyone’s guess. Maybe it was overheard in the lobby. Maybe it was an overzealous team official. In any case, most of what we’ve heard today is crap, but there is no crap greater than a report on MLive regarding Curtis Granderson and Edwin Jackson.

It all started with a relatively benign line from a Chicago Tribune post: “Yankees apparently are trying to put together a package of young players.” Notice the words “apparently” and “trying” in that sentence. It is complete speculation, and I don’t think it was intended to be anything else. Yet somehow, over the course of just a few hours, that morphed into “Tigers close to dealing Edwin Jackson, Curtis Granderson to New York Yankees.” Even in the body of the article, James Schmehl says that “the Tigers are closing in on a deal” with the Yankees, so we can’t just blame this on a copy editor. Again, no source — anonymous or not — was cited in this, other than the Tribune article.

Look, blogs and Twitter are great media tools. They allow a faster, more direct dissemination of information. But, as we’ve seen in Day 1 of the Winter Meetings, they can, like other types of media, be misused. Fans love a juicy rumor, and through reporters and aggregators we hear everything. But let’s just make sure we’re labeling rumors as such, and not escalating them for no apparent reason.

Buster Olney has an actual rumor on the Granderson part, something that is assumed to be speculation. Apparently, the Tigers seek both Phil Hughes and Austin Jackson from the Yankees. Speculative, of course, but if true it’s clear that Granderson will not be a Yankee. That’s way too high a price. Thanks to Doug for sending in the screen shot. It’s tough to link to ESPN’s rumor updates.

In actual Winter Meeting news:

Umpire Doug Harvey and manager Whitey Herzog were elected to the Hall of Fame. Congratulations to those two. I would have posted it at the time, but the wireless Internet is horrible at the Marriot. It was pretty much down all day, and spotty when it was working. As many others noted, it’s a shame that Marvin Miller still hasn’t gotten the nod.

The Yanks have checked on Kelvim Escobar, as they should. When he’s healthy, he’s nasty.

Via Ken Davidoff, Cashman’s priorities: “Pitching, pitching, pitching — and then left field.” Sounds good to me. First up: signing Pettitte.

And with that, we turn it over to you, the commenter, for this evening’s open thread. There’s plenty to talk about, so have at it. As long as we have no e-decapitations, it’s cool.

Categories : Open Thread

206 Comments»

  1. ultimate913 says:

    Joe, I have a question that I asked in the previous thread but nobody answered it. So here it is.

    Do the Nationals pick who the Yankees want in the draft? Or do the Nats pick anyone and the Yanks are forced to take that pick?

  2. JobaWockeeZ says:

    Cool no Halladay rumors yet. Those kill me since there’s always a lot of fans who are willing to give up the world and more to get him.

  3. So Jesús Montero is like beyond tall. And apparently his nickname is Burul. I’m still trying to figure out how to correctly pronounce that.

  4. Salty Buggah says:

    Henderson’s injury from last night:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tb12jQtskE

    :pukes:

  5. Drew says:

    I turned on BBTN at 5, one of the first things Olney said was something along the lines of Hughes and Ajax for C-Grand. I laughed. No chance.

    • adayoff says:

      Speaking of Olney, I really liked it when 5 minutes after Cashman, Hal, Hank, George, Randy Levine and Leon Troost finish their meeting, Buster Olney says insiders set Yankee budget at $185M. I wonder which one of these guys immediately felt the need to share their Acquisition budget with ESPN. Must of gone something like this

      George: “That’s some great tapioca there Buster.”

      Buster: “Want Some? Tell me your 2010 Opening Day Budget”

      George: “$185M, now gimme some of that tapioca.”

  6. Joey D says:

    Hey guys,
    My wife is from Venezuela and I take her to Trenton Thunder games. This past season we had the honor of meeting Jesus Montero after numerous Trenton home games.
    We spoke to Jesus and we also had the honor in meeting both Jesus’ parents. My wife asked his father what Burul meant and he told us that it was a random nickname given to him by friends in his hometown. That it has no meaning. (Very common in Venezuela nicknames are) Jesus adopted the nickname from his father.
    We even hung out with Jesus away from the stadium and I must say he is a very nice and humble guy. Oh for those who wonder he will sign “Burul” if asked! Hope this helps clear up the Burul mystery.

  7. Salty Buggah says:

    I hope the Yanks don’t get Marquis. I think IPK can perform as well as Marquis in the AL East, if not better.

  8. Granderson says:

    I would trade Hughes and AJAX for Granderson and Jackson. Jackson is already better than hughes, and Granderson has proven he can play. AJAX has proven nothing except he has no power. We already have a powerless duo in Center.

  9. Salty Buggah says:

    Buster Olney’s Tweet: “The Cardinals and Brad Penny have a letter of agreement, for a $7.5 million base and $1.5 in performances bonuses. Physical likely on Wed.”

    Is it me or is that overpaying penny?

  10. Tom Zig says:

    Anyone else get really weirded out by the new snuggie commercial?

  11. TheLastClown says:

    Anyone else think the Cards are nuts to guarantee Brad Penny $7.5M?

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....penny.html

  12. Ivan says:

    LMAO!!!!!!!!!! This is the song for the cheating guys out there trying to sing this to the girl your cheating with….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEkomaBTppY

  13. So before I thought it’d be funny to guess the higher number: Tiger Woods mistresses or Nets wins this season.

    Now it’s not really a question any more.

  14. Drew says:

    SO the Braves might get stuck with Soriano. This wouldn’t be a problem if they hadn’t signed Wagner and Saito but they have. If Soriano accepts arb I wonder what it would take to get him. The braves of course would have to assume a couple mil imo.

  15. The Artist says:

    Buster Olney has an actual rumor on the Granderson part, something that is assumed to be speculation. Apparently, the Tigers seek both Phil Hughes and Austin Jackson from the Yankees. Speculative, of course, but if true it’s clear that Granderson will not be a Yankee.

    Which is of course, an opening offer. One made with the expectation that the Yanks would counter with . . . say Brett Gardner and Ivan Nova, and the two sides would split the difference and settle on A-Jax and Z-Mac (or IPK) for Curtis Granderson.

    Deal?

    • Rocky Road Redemption (formerly RAB poster) says:

      Ehhh…No.

    • Drew says:

      I’d pull the trigger with Ajax as the center piece. But a lot of people round these parts are really against C-Grand, with valid reasoning of course.
      Personally, I think he’d fit in well. May even bust out with 35+ homers. With Melky behind him that obp may creep up as well.

      • The Artist says:

        I understand the lefty splits, but I think he’d be better in Yankee Stadium. He’s become pull happy and homer happy in Detroit, and that’s fixable. YSIII is a much more forgiving ballpark than Detroit for Lefty hitters. Should allow him to relax and not try to pull everything. Eventually, at least.

        To me, A-Jax’s upside is likely to eventually become a player like Granderson, only Granderson is already there. Plus, A-Jax has advanced slowly through the minors, it’s safe to say he’ll struggle at the bigs initially as well, maybe even for a few years. The Yanks don’t have the time or patience for that. All you’re effectively giving up is the pitcher, and if it’s Z-Mac/IPK there’s little chance they’d pitch for us this year anyway. I’ll give up a potential back of the rotation starter not to watch A-Jax struggle, I think that’s fair for both sides.

        I make the deal.

        • Drew says:

          Over the past four years Grandy has been worth an average of 19.175 mil per according to fangraphs. There’s a good shot Ajax never even comes close to that value in one season.

          • The Artist says:

            . . or Z-Mac or IPK. Detroit’s the one taking most of the risk in the deal.

          • And his value has declined each year, as has his raw production.

            wOBA, ’07-’09:
            .390
            .373
            .340

            OPS:
            .913
            .858
            .780

            His spike in FB% this year is also troubling, though it could be a one year thing.

            For the right price, yeah, I like Granderson a lot. But, I think Jackson and McAllister is too much. Maybe I’d agree if it was just one of them–or one of them (preferably Jackson) was replaced by someone else–but I’m not sure Detroit goes for that.

        • YSIII is a much more forgiving ballpark than Detroit for Lefty hitters. Should allow him to relax and not try to pull everything. Eventually, at least.

          Wouldn’t that encourage him to pull, though? If he’s up there thinking “Okay, all I’ve gotta do is pull it over that little fence…” he’s gonna get pull happy. It’s also likely to not help him get out of his fly ball rut.

          • Drew says:

            Eh, there is so many variables that could encourage him to pull or not to pull… I do believe though that at the end of our lineup he would pick his spots to pull. Otherwise, just try to slap one over to left. Take first and wait for the top of the lineup to knock him in.

            I think he’d thrive in NY but that’s strictly opinion.

            • The Artist says:

              Yep, me too. I could be dead wrong but I think it’s a solid guess. Even if he didn’t change one bit, a lefty dead pull hitter in YSIII wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world, either. So you’re good either way.

          • The Artist says:

            Maybe, but when he gets a few gimme HRs he might relax and STOP pulling everything, seeing how easy it is. Knowing that (unlike in Detroit) he doesn’t have to try so hard all the time. It’s the Paul O’Niell effect.

        • I also wouldnt’ call spending a year at each level advancing slowly, either. Spending another half a year at AAA to gain some polish definitely won’t hurt him.

    • T-Dubs says:

      Sorry Artist, I’m replying to this Buster related post because I scrolled up real quick and missed the original Olney related conversation.

      Anyway, I never used to like Olney until he gave me this response in a live chat once. I think Yanks fans will find it interesting:

      Tyler (CT)

      Buster, my friend Jordan at the Marriot asked you this for me once but, if Don Mattingly used HGH to heal his back injuries do you think he would’ve been the 1B on the 1996 World Series team?

      Buster Olney (1:38 PM)

      Tyler: Hmmmm… If it had healed him, yes… But Mattingly felt like his back was completely spent after the 1995 season, and he felt, too, that his standing within the clubhouse was beginning to ebb because he wasn’t as good as of a player as he had once been. I’m not sure if I would agree with that — even in the years that I covered the Yankees (1998-2001), Mattingly was viewed as a living god by the players — but I think Mattingly felt, very definitively, that it was time to walk away, and that his body had had it.

    • I wouldn’t do Jackson and Z-Mac for Granderson.

      • Steve H says:

        Definitely not. Z-Mac has a chance to be a cheap end of rotation (3-5) guy, those guys have a lot of value. A-Jax has a chance to be a cheap CF for years. Those guys have value, and they are both close to the bigs, not like trading 18-19 year olds. Guys who have declined for 3 straight years, are overpaid by today’s market, and have to be platooned don’t carry that much value. The Tigers don’t have to trade him, they are going to ask for the moon, and if they don’t get it, they’ll keep him. I just hope they don’t get the moon from the Yankees.

        Cameron for 1 year+Ajax+Z-Mac>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Granderson.

        OR

        Gardbrera+Ajax+Z-Mac>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Granderson

        • Drew says:

          Eh. I agree with the former but not the latter.

          Ajax and Zmac are still very much prospects. 30+ hr’s at the bottom of our lineup along with some solid defense in a much easier CF than in Comerica is very valuable.

          • The Artist says:

            Yeah, I’d really like to discuss this on its own merits w/o bringing up everyone else who’s available. Obviouslt Damon is Plan A and all indications are Cameron is Plan B. We all know that.

            • Mike HC says:

              On its own merits, it is a good deal. A player already on Granderson’s level is better than AJax and Nova for the next four years/ But you can’t look at it in a vacuum. Using some of our money on Granderson prevents us from using it on pitching, or re signing Damon, or a number of other things.

              • I’d be more willing to do Jackson/Nova.

                Maybe I’m too high on Z-Mac, but I really like his polish. He could be a good 3-5 guy, as Steve said, and I’d rather employ a cheap one of those then an overpriced one (see Penny, Brad).

                • Mike HC says:

                  my bad, I meant Zmac. I would not even trade Ajax straight up. I am really not as familiar with Nova or Zmac. If Zmac is really projected as a 3-5 in the AL East, then I would be hesitant to trade him straight up too.

                • The Artist says:

                  Yeah, and I’ve always liked IPK more than most people. I’d almost like to see him get a chance to pitch somewhere at this point, since I really don’t think he’ll be in the Yanks plans for 2010. Even as a Plan D. Gaudin, Aceves, Mitre and whoever they pick up off the scrap heap will all be ahead of him.

                • The Artist says:

                  Mike HC, compare A-Jax’s Minor league numbers to Granderson’s and then tell me you wouldn’t give A-Jax straight up for him.

            • JMK aka The Overshare says:

              +1 to what Drew said, but I also agree with what Mike HC said. If your rotation is Damon, Granderson, Swisher, Melky for the next two years, that absolutely works. For Jackson and IPK or Z-Mac? I probably do it. Any combination of those three is not likely to replicate Granderson’s production over four years.

              But as Mike HC said, it’s not just C-Grand (don’t tell Jamal I called him that) in a vacuum. He’ll eat a good portion of salary over the next few years, and to some extent, will limit flexibility. If we’re not sold he can play a very good center field everyday without needing a platoon, we might be better off with Melky, Ajax and the back rotation, ESPECIALLY if he’s what stops the team from signing Felix or Verlander or some other superstar.

              P.S. There are waaaay too many guys with “Mike” in their RAB names. I can’t keep track of all of you. You guys need to figure something out or I’m just going to do nicknames (and you won’t like them, trust me).

              • Mike HC says:

                haha … now I’m curious to hear the nicknames … and welcome to my real life. How many Michaels do you think I grew up with and encounter daily.

                My middle name, Craig, was more original. Too bad my parents didnt name me Craig Michael. It would have been easier for everyone.

                • The Artist says:

                  I became “The Artist” because there was about 50 ‘Steve’s here at the time.

                • JMK aka The Overshare says:

                  I have nothing clever to offer. But, from now on, you’ll be known as “Craigslist Rapist” to me.

                  It was either that or Pepto Dismal.

                • JMK aka The Overshare says:

                  My own name anecdote: Growing up everyone was named “James.” But everyone went by “Jim” or “Jimmy” or “Jay”. There was only one other James, and I threatened to beat his head in with a bat during one of our baseball games for eating part of my Burger King sandwich. He thought it was pretty funny ’til I took a swing. I missed, but he didn’t eat a lot of BK after that.

    • Mike HC says:

      Nope. Not even Ajax for him straight up.

      Granderson gets paid $5.5 million in 2010, $8.25 million in 2011 and $10 million in 2012, with a $13 million option for 2013 with a $2 million buyout.

      Lets call that a 3 year deal for 25.75 million. Or a 4 year 36.75 deal. We could sign Damon for the same if not less money. We could sign Cameron for far less money. We could sign Matsui for far less. Or we could use that money to sign a number of other players.

      So, to me, the question is AJax, plus a prospective 25 million dollar free agent, for Granderson. It is not worth it to me

      • JMK aka The Overshare says:

        If he hits 25-30 (or more) home runs and plays excellent defense in CF, he’s absolutely worth 3-years at $26 million, even with Ajax.

  16. dkidd says:

    i love mlbtr, but this week is going to be annoying

    “randy wolf signing imminent!!!

    update: randy wolf signing not imminent!!!”

  17. The Artist says:

    Rafael Soriano May Accept Arbitration

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....ation.html

    This intrigues me to no end. Cashman is on the record saying he doesn’t want to give up a draft pick for a setup man, but if Soriano accepts arb I don’t think you’d even have to give up that much. He’d likely be getting (much) more for 2010 than he’d get on the open market, which is why Soriano wants to accept arb in the first place. But if he’s overpaid, he has zero trade value. The Braves would be happy just to not have to pay him. It would be a Juan Cruz situation all over again where you give up a token player, one who may soon be out of options anyway, and just agree to pay him for one year.

    A pitcher with his ability on a 1 year deal is sweet. I do this yesterday.

  18. mustang says:

    I still hold on to my theory from last year that the GMs work for an hour each day during the winter meetings the rest of the time they hang out thinking of crazy ass rumors to drive the media and the fans crazy. It’s their way to get back at everyone for all the shit they go though during the season.

    REVENAGE OF THE MLB GMs 2009

  19. The Get Well Card I actually did get Jesus

    http://farm3.static.flickr.com.....b256_o.jpg

    No poem, but I did write it! And draw the doodle!

  20. V says:

    Anyone have any ideas who might be available in the Rule V draft? Piggybacking on a Pirates’ blog, I’ve got Koby Clemens (http://www.buccofans.com/2009/.....chers.html), Aneury Rodriguez (http://www.buccofans.com/2009/.....anded.html – check out the Kanekoa Texeira write-up, with a shoutout to RAB), or Yohan Pino.

    :shrug:

    • Drew says:

      Someone posted it in reply to one of my comments in the Bruney trade thread. Unfortunately it’s blocked by the BA Subscription.

    • JMK aka The Overshare says:

      I gotcha covered, V. I came up with a sizable list in the last thread. My favorites are Lofgren, Rodriguez and Tracy.

      It’s much easier for a pitcher to stick on a 25-man roster than it is a position player, so I’d think a reliever or starter that can be a swingman would fit the Yankees’ needs best. But anyway, to fill it out more, here are some younger guys to look out for:

      Chuck Lofgren, LHP, CLE (Lofgren is a starter, has really good stuff, is still young, and most importantly, a lefty. Potential LOOGY kind of guy or better.)

      Aneury Rodriguez, RHP, TB (has potential to be a good starter, three possible league-average or better pitches, excellent fastball command, young, would have very good stuff in bullpen)

      Neil Wagner, RHP, CLE (explosive fastball, okay control, no viable second pitch)

      Ryan Mount, 2B, LAA (has good pop, decent fielder but wrought with injury problems, though that actually may help in a Rule V draft).

      Blake Davis, SS, BAL (suffered injuries in 2009, but hit very well in 2007, 2008 and is a versatile fielder)

      John Shelby, CF, CWS (Did well in Hi-A, then struggled in a pitcher-friendly AA. Very good power-speed combination in CF, but must improve on-base skills. Has played 2B, SS and corner outfield spots)

      Rene Tosoni, OF, MIN (on here due to the depth in Minnesota’s outfield. Decent power, can play all three positions capably)

      Arquimedes Caminero, RHP, FLA (lightning arm, but way too inexperienced. Unlikely he could stay on the 25-man)

      Graham Taylor, LHP, FLA (lefy with good movement on high 80s fastball, two good secondary offerings and pitches well against both sides of the plate)

      Chad Tracy, 1B/OF, TEX (different Chad Tracy. This guy has great power production numbers with 26 home runs but poor eye, low obp. Could be a power hitter, emergency hitter off the bench)

      Michael McBryde, CF, SF (talented 24 y.o put up .295/.333/.410 line splitting time between AA and AAA, with 22 steals in 34 attempts with plus defense in CF)

      • Steve H says:

        Give me the lefty with good stuff any day of the week. Those guys end up with 15 year careers.

      • Rockdog says:

        Do you think the Yankees have someone in mind and made the trade to get their guy, or was this just an opportunistic was to shed some salary and potentially get a decent young player?

        • Steve H says:

          I’d guess they have someone in mind, knowing that whomever they take needs to stick on the roster.

        • JMK aka The Overshare says:

          Well, it definitely helps to get a has-been out of New York, while clearing $2 million to throw at Pettitte or whoever, but I also think they have someone in mind. Remember, if the guy chosen doesn’t spend the entire year on the 25-man, he’s returned. If they really just wanted to get rid of some salary and grab a decent young player, they probably could have done that with Washington. Picking 1st in Rule V tells me they have someone isolated. Just my $.002

      • V says:

        Awesome, yeah, Rodriguez seems interesting.

      • You missed my personal favorite, Yohan Pino.

        • JMK aka The Overshare says:

          I know. That was a glaring omission on my part. I saw mid-to-high 80s fastball, 25 y.o., injury and dismissed it without digging up more information. After reading the whole scouting report, he could very likely be a good—not average—pitcher for us. He supposedly has a “bulldog” mentality, can spot his fastball and has an excellent curve and slider. Sounds like an Aceves-type pitcher.

          Having read the scouting report, he’s higher than Lofgren and probably on par with Rodriguez, with a better chance to stay on the 25-man due to his age and experience. I would not at all be surprised if they get him on Thursday.

        • V says:

          Boom, he was one of my three. Koby Clemens would have no shot of sticking with the Yankees in the majors (only chance is to try to pass him through waivers and work a deal out with the Astros to stick him at AA), but could be interesting for someone.

  21. [...] (9:30) – Buster Olney (props to RAB) says that the Yankees will have to give up Phil Hughes and Austin Jackson in order to land Curtis [...]

  22. Drew says:

    Packers v Ravens just doesn’t do it for me.

  23. Keanu Reeves says:

    So I’m officiating a freshmen basketball game tonight. The guy I’m working with was nice and pretty consistent for the most part. But around the middle of the 3rd quarter the game started getting a bit crazy.

    Anyway, there’s a lob pass on a press break to about half court. 5 players from the two teams collide and a defensive player comes up with the ball in the back court. I blow my whistle, intent on calling a foul to clean up the traffic wreck that happened at mid-court. Suddenly, the other official sprints up to me and screams that he had back court before the foul. Both coaches were confused and then, just as quickly as he made the call, he decided that he was wrong, saying that it was an inadvertent whistle and awarding the defensive team the ball.

    Never mind that 5 players collided and fell down, one kid left with a gouged eye. I wanted to correct the call…but it was hard enough to not laugh.

    This is a long story…that probably was only funny if you saw it. But anyway…

    :face palm: http://rob.nu/wp-content/uploa.....cePalm.jpg (safe)

  24. I don’t understand the NFL. Joe Flacco has a foot injury, and so far he isn’t getting any weight to his left foot on his throws. He couldn’t even throw the hail mary 50 yards. I mean, I can throw a ball that far. And yet there almost certainly won’t be any thought of pulling him for the backup, even though he clearly isn’t giving them a good chance to win this game because of an injury.

    Too many steroids I guess.

  25. PaaakmaaaN says:

    I would love to get Edwin Jackson and Curtis Granderson for lets say, Joba, Austin Jackson, 2 other minor leaguers (i’d rather give up joba than phil hughes)

    Also Once we get Edwin and Curtis we sign Andy Pettitte and Matsui, and 2010 world series champions here we come

  26. Hey ZZ says:

    So what do you guys think. King Felix signs a long term extension in Seattle this weekend?

  27. gio says:

    would anyone do the rumored ipk/jackson/coke/dunn for granderson trade? i’d definitely consider it. thats essentially jackson for granderson straight up

    • Keanu Reeves says:

      Got it. I’d be interested to see who the D-Backs prospects in that scenario would have been. In your first post it sounded like a 4 for 1 deal.

      Depending on the quality of the prospects the Yankees got, I could be swayed, but this probably has no chance of happening anyway.

      • Reggie C. says:

        if talks are at “impasse”, then doesn’t that imply that the talks had actually commenced. the package needs tweaking, but with the Yanks giving up 4 players in that package i highly doubt the tweaking needs to happen on our end. I would think the Tigers have an issue.

  28. Meat Loaf says:

    IPK, A-Jax, Dunn, Coke for Granderson.

    I won’t be furious, but I won’t be thrilled. I think A-Jax showed he had a chance to be really good, even though his power numbers were lacking. Dunn has skill but lacks the head on his shoulders, IMO. Coke I could deal with. IPK is a bad version of Mussina.

  29. [...] post:  Open Thread: Evolution of a rumor | River Avenue Blues Tags: get-high, high-risk, like-every, price, slim-pickings, starting-pitching, tags-could, [...]

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