Open Thread: Photos from Cooperstown
By
Did you miss me? In case you hadn’t noticed, I was away from RAB the last three days, checking out the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown. I had never been there before, so everything was new to me. We spent basically all day Monday in the HOF and the museum, and you can see all the pics I took here. As you’re scrolling through the slideshow, be sure to click “Show Info” in the top right corner to get the description of what each pic is.
What you see above is the Hall’s 2009 World Series display. It consists of Andy Pettitte’s ALCS jersey, Hideki Matsui’s World Series Game 6 bat, Mo’s hat, Johnny Damon’s double-steal spikes, A-Rod’s WS Game 6 spikes, Suzyn Waldman’s Game 6 scorecard, Jose Molina’s and Jorge Posada’s masks, the ball CC Sabathia threw for the first pitch of the series, and tons of other stuff. Eventually the 2009 WS ring will join the ’98, ’99, and ’00 rings in the giant display case.
Babe Ruth had his own room in the Hall, which basically told his life story and chronicled all of his baseball exploits. It contained the story about how he was found, his old glove, his famed “called shot” bat (it’s the one on the left), an old Christmas card, and not to mention his bowling ball and various golf trophies (who knew?). Oh, and of course they had his locker. Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, and Lou Gehrig all had their own displays as well.
Another room had more recent milestones, with each team getting it’s own locker. The Yanks’ locker featured Matsui’s bat from his grand slam against the Twins in 2003, Derek Jeter’s spikes from when he passed Lou Gehrig’s as the team’s all-time hit leader, a shovel they used to break ground on the New Stadium, Mike Mussina’s hat from his 20th win, Mo’s hat from his 400th save, A-Rod’s helmet from his 500th homer, and Aaron Boone’s bat from Game 7 of 2003 ALCS. Among the other miscellaneous items displayed throughout the museum, there was the 1996 World Series trophy, one of Don Mattingly’s Gold Gloves, a 1973 ticket booth from Yankee Stadium, Melky’s helmet from his cycle, Curtis Granderson’s jersey from when he went 20-20-20-20, and the lineup card from the team’s record breaking 112th win in 1998.
The hands down coolest item on display was Ted Williams’ strikezone. Each ball tells you what he hit on pitches to that spot. I guess you had to keep the ball down, or else. Well, Honus Wagner’s hat and flip down shades were pretty badass too. If you scroll through my Twitter feed, you’ll find a couple other pics as well. Hope you enjoy ‘em, the trip was a blast.
Anyway, here’s your open thread for the night. Both the Isles and Knicks are in action, but talk about whatever you want.
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The Tyler Austin Watch
YES just played a HILARIOUS commercial. It said:
“This New Years Eve, watch the ball drop”
…and they played the clip of Luis Castillo with the A-Rod pop up.
That is classic.
hahahaha I need to see that for myself. well played, YES.
oh fantastic
Harold Reynolds said the Twins are the best franchise of the last decade because of the farm system developing guys like Johan Santana. Well done Harold
Better than Ed Price’s “No Rival to Red Sox in 2000s” article.
http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2009/1.....-in-2000s/
Check that chart in there out. It proves how the Yanks were better almost in every way yet he chose the Sox.
WTF my computer won’t let me into the article! Can you give me some basic stuff?
Two things that sum up its stupidity:
-”And when the Yankees bookended the decade with this year’s title, they matched the Red Sox as the only team with two championships in the 2000s.”
- “But while the Yankees had the best winning percentage for the 2000s as a whole — .597, with a 965-651 record — we have chosen the Red Sox as the team of the decade.”
And this chart:
http://i49.tinypic.com/aoajuv.jpg
It tells how the Yanks were the best team, yet he chose the Red Sox.
Thanks.
So basically,the Yankees had more wins than the Red Sox, more division titles, more playoff appearances, and the same number of world series, yet he chose the Red Sox as the better team.
What on Earth was his arguement?
um…they won the 04 ALCS I guess. And the chart is giving them too much credit–the Sox have won just one division title this decade
they also have a cable network and “blend modern statistical analysis with traditional scouting”
And Yanks had more pennants.
Basically, this is his argument:
“Boston earns the nod not just based on its success but also for the way the franchise turned itself around and became a standard-bearer in ways for the industry.”
On 2004: “It saddled the Yankees’ with a vulnerability that lasted five years, it dialed up the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry and it turned New England fans’ expectations from inevitable doom to an”
And how the Sox became a better business in the 2000′s with the creation of NESN, installation of the Green Monster seats, and hiring of Theo Epstein, which “blended modern statistical analysis with traditional scouting.”
For the 2004 thing, it should end with “annual contention,” not just “an”
So, they hired Theo Epstein, and improved their scouting and statistical analysis, yet even then the Yankees had more wins, the same number of World Series, more pennants, more playoff appearances, and more division titles.
Yes, they won in 04′. Congrats for “dialing up the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry”. They did beat the Yankees. Then next year they lost the division to the Yankees, and the year after they missed the playoffs.
In 07′, they got a WS. Fine. In 09′ the Yankees won a WS. That gives both 2.
Wow, this article is dumb.
““It saddled the Yankees’ with a vulnerability that lasted five years, ”
Yeah that didn’t have anything to do with the fact that we had some pretty awesome pitching in 00-03 and not-great pitching from 04-08 (and yet we still won the division in 04, 05, and 06, and the Wild Card in 07). We were all just ~haunted by 2004.
He pretty much summed up the decision though “Boston earns the nod not just based on its success but also for the way the franchise turned itself around and became a standard-bearer in ways for the industry”. The Yankees’ decade wasn’t up to their own standards with regard to Championships, so that may be why he overlooked them.
For what it’s worth people will be having the same argument about the Patriots, Steelers and Colts after the postseason too. One team set a record for wins in a decade while winning one title, one won two titles, and one won three titles and won the second most games in a decade.
To me, unquestionably the Patriots are the NFL team of the decade. And it’s not even close.
Really, though, it’s difficult to make the argument the Sox were the team of the decade by statistics—narrative you can argue. It was great by Boston standards, average by New York standards. Still, I think statistics should be weighed a bit more heavily than the woe-is-me David vs. Goliath narrative.
“One team set a record for wins in a decade while winning one title, one won two titles, and one won three titles and won the second most games in a decade.”
Yea, but this is different. The same team has the most titles, wins, division titles, and pennants. That’s total domination.
to quote the article,
“For the decade, the Red Sox averaged 92 wins per season, compared to the Yankees’ 96.5. (St. Louis led the NL with 91.3.)”
so…why are the Sox the team of the decade?
Yes, what exactly was the author of the article’s reasoning? There has to be SOME reason he chose the Sox.
Hahahahahahaha…u can’t make this up.
yea, that article is pretty bad. my favorite part is the poll at the bottom
“Do you consider the Red Sox to be the Team of the 2000s?”
Yes: 39%
No: 61%
It’s really not even close.
HA!!!
Hah I love the Red Sox commitments in the article.
The Yankees commitments are…
1. Win the World Series.
2. Win the World Series.
3. Win the World Series.
4. Win the World Series.
5. Win the World Series.
Ilove how for Boston win the WS is way down at number five. Yanks would look at the list and laugh.
That is why they have 2 titles in the last 80+ yrs.
Well, since they didn’t list those committments until 2001, looks like they are on the right track now….
I have the same picture of the Johnson v. Ruth sign. If Blyleven gets in this year, I’m there.
I particularly enjoyed the new display of Hall of Famer Jim Rice when I was there over Induction Weekend in July
Objectively speaking (putting fandom aside), do you believe Rice deserves to be in the Hall?
Deserves?
Was he good? Sure. Great? Probably not. The real problem for the Hall is if you include Rice like you did now you certainly have to open the doors to Dawson, Parker, Evans, etc. Thats not to mention all the players from ’85 on who had much better stats than Rice.
And if Rice is in why did Albert Belle not get any support? He was just as “feared” and put up better numbers.
I’m okay with all those players being included. Having 1% of all players inducted in the HOF wouldn’t water it down for me and I don’t believe the current total yet approaches that. That’s just my opinion and I respect that some people think Rice, Dawson, Parker, Evans, Belle, Blyleven, Morris, Trammell, etc would water down the Hall. I just prefer to look at their inclusion as a positive thing that makes their fans happy and honors them for their accomplishments and dedication to the game.
Morris would, Blyleven wouldn’t.
/broken record’d
Ken Singleton for HOF! Higher peak AND career OPS+ than Rice.
Kenny is a massively underrated player.
I think people have seen the 246 Home Runs from a corner outfielder and judged him unworthy. It’s unfortunate as he was fun to watch and was a very, very good player.
Yes and I argued the case vociferously for twenty years.
He was a dominant player for twelve years, placed among baseball’s offensive leaders over those twelve years, compared nicely to Mike Schmidt and George Brett during those twelve years and with regard to his career compared very nicely with Tony Perez and Orlando Cepeda. I think if he’d had solid years in 87 and 88, his candidacy would never have been in question. Had that been the case he would have finished .300, 400+, 1500+ and those to me, considering the era he played in, are HOF numbers.
(Very difficult for me to put fandom aside in Jim Ed’s case as I grew idolizing him, but I tried
Whitey’s case for Jim Rice’s HOF worthiness, shorter:
Had he had a few more solid years and finished with .300, 400+, 1500+, he’d have HOF-worthy numbers.
Obvious rebuttal:
But… He didn’t.
I didn’t state it right and you called me on it so I’ll try again. I believe he had HOF numbers as-is, had he reached the “magic numbers”, it would have been irrefutable.
Gotcha.
Unlike JMK, I’m not a small-Hall advocate… I actually don’t care much about the HOF at all… But I don’t have a big problem with Rice being in. I don’t really think he belongs, considering the accepted standards, but, in the end… There are a lot of people in the HOF that probably don’t belong there, per the established standards. If people want Rice in there that bad, I say let him in. It’s a place for people to go and reminisce about their heroes, I don’t know why we have to be all serious and harsh about keeping guys out. It just seems a little silly to me.
If they let in Morris, somebody’s going to have to die.
That!
I hear you and all, but I advocate for a small Hall, and prefer players to be more well-rounded. He was basically a DH masquerading as a LF (I don’t give much credit to him being able to play balls off the wall well). No defense, no speed, no walks. I worry (like Lanny) that he would represent a movement of letting in very good players in when they should be GREAT players.
Then again, I may be a hypocrite since I think Edgar Martinez should be in. If you want Edgar in because of his offensive prowess (which is well above Rice’s. Career OPS+ of 147 versus 128), you pretty much have to let Rice in even if he was a relatively one-dimensional player.
See? I’m sort of fractured on this.
Rice and Martinez for the Small Hall!
It always makes for good discussion, but most folks don’t realize that Rice wasn’t necessarily slow. He wasn’t a speedster, don’t get me wrong, but he ran the bases well and hit a ton of triples compared to other sluggers. He had a very accurate arm and compiled 130+ outfield assists. I’ve always been bothered that he didn’t score more runs, but I think you have to place some of that blame on the guys that batted behind him and the fact that he missed about a full season’s worth of games due to broken bones at various times.
I’m not sure how much credence I’d give to his assists. I don’t have numbers, but I’d guess that due to the Monster, most LFers in Fenway would have a higher amount of assists due to guys testing them for doubles on balls hit off the wall.
Anyway, his health and the fact that he only had an OPS+ of 130 for six seasons tell me he was a very good, but not great player for long enough. Look at his home/away splits:
Home: .320/.374/.546/.920 tOPS=115
Away: .277/.330/.459/.789 tOPS=85
I don’t want to sound like I’m crapping on Rice. He was a really good player for a while, one of the better of his era. I just don’t think he was quite good enough, even though there are likely to be a huge amount of guys in the Hall that are undeserving. I’m not that sentimental; I don’t feel that strongly about this, but I would have liked the Hall to be more of an elite club.
Hell, I wouldn’t vote for Mattingly or Posada if they were eligible today. Bernie Williams, yes but largely because of positional defense.
I will sway you on Jorge.
I can be swayed. Two more seasons of an OPS+ north of 120 and I think he’s unquestionably there. Until we can find a better way to quantify defense for Catchers, it’s a hard sell for me.
I said “now,” I believe. We’ll see how he ends his career. He’ll probably get in.
Since 1995, so that’s including years in which he didn’t get a lot of playing time, Jorge leads catchers in pretty much all offensive categories, except for hits. In terms of BP’s WARP and CHONE’s WAR, he’s also right in the meat of things with the other HOF catchers.
Yeah, I know his offense is there and he’s had a very long, productive career. I would just like to see some sort of quantifiable measurement of defense. I get the impression most are much better than he defensively. (I’m not really knowledgeable of the long history of baseball. I don’t really think that much about what a guy did in 1936.)
He’s probably in no matter what, but it would satisfy my curiosity to see who he’d most compare to.
See, I think he won’t get in and will need a Rice-like push.
You’re probably right about the Monster. Shorter throws, but accurate ones, are still good though. I can’t blame him for his home/road splits. He recognized he was in a good situation and stayed there. Too many players make the mistake of thinking the grass is greener on the other side and his buddy Fred Lynn was one of them. His career was never the same after leaving Boston. (Jason Bay and Johnny Damon are immediately coming to mind as well as players who could be making the same mistake)
I hear ya. Damon was kind of squeezed out of Fenway a bit, though. As he should have been. They were smart not to go 4/$52 on a below-average LFer.
Players have a limited earning period, so they attempt to capitalize on it by chasing the top dollar, often (in my opinion) sacrificing the bigger picture. It’s kind of a shame, really, though I understand it. I feel bad for the kids that have to move every four years. It’s like having a really rich military dad.
Way after the fact, I think Whitey was talking about Damon’s departure from the Yankees.
Yep, I was, but then I was thinking, he’ll probably still be back since it’s the best match for player and team…
Babe Ruth’s “Bustin’ Babes” jersey = best jersey ever.
I’m excited for El Carpentiero’s display in the Venezuelan player section.
You just became the second member of my RAB Commenter Hall of Fame.
I’m so using that from now on.
Welcome to the club, Matt. We’re an elite group. I say we close admissions immediately, before Jon Heyman starts letting the riff raff get in.
Naturally, I am the first.
Guys, guys… Induction doesn’t come easy, you have to put in some hard work. Let’s not be crazy and assume anyone’s in. It’s the Mondesi and Matt show for now.
Jim Rice was a feared commenter. Therefore, he should be in the HOF.
Babe Ruth’s alleged “called shot” really needs to stop being talked about.
The called shot is bullshit. It never happened. It’s a myth. The closest eyewitnesses to the scene (the players themselves) didn’t see it, and Babe Ruth himself admitted later in life that the whole thing was phony. Yes, it was a cool story. So was Sherlock Holmes. Sherlock Holmes isn’t real either.
Baseball wasn’t created by Abner Doubleday in Cooperstown, NY, either. Ty Cobb never killed anyone and was no more racist than the average man of his day. Joe Dimaggio wasn’t a great guy. Catfish Hunter wasn’t into fishing.
Baseball is filled with apocryphal tales. Just go with the flow.
You are correct on all counts. Dimmaggio was a bitter, lonely man who had a massively huge ego.
As for Cobb, are you sure he never killed anybody? I definitely heard differently on that one.
Baseball may be full of apocryphal stories, but they need to be talked about as apocrypha, not fact.
…Ty Cobb stabbed a guy.
Not according to the Charles Alexander book. His mother shot and killed his father, but said it was an accident and was acquitted.
To be fair, nobody really cares if Cobb was more racist than other racists. The point is just that he was, you know, virulently racist.
Evidence suggests the contrary. If that was true, then why would he build a Hospital in his Georgia hometown that served mostly African Americans? And set up an educational fund that served low income Georgia residents as well?
Eh, I have no interest in getting into an argument about different interpretations of Cobb’s personal life. I’m not getting into a ‘who read which biography’ pissing match.
The Cobb Memorial Hospital (now Ty Cobb Healthcare System) isn’t a matter of historian’s opinion, it’s a fact. Non-profit and privately funded since day 1, serving the poor (mostly Black) of rural Georgia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....l_Hospital
I never argued that the hospital didn’t exist or that he didn’t fund it.
This is precisely the conversation I have no interest engaging in though. The ‘here’s my link,’ ‘no, here’s MY link’ kind of argument.
I don’t care if Ty Cobb was racist or not, I’m not going to contest anything you say.
Nostr-Artist and I are going to co-author a book about baseball history. You watch, it’ll be a bestseller.
We all forgot you were there when it happened. Thanks for shedding light on that.
Thank you, but I’m getting my information from people who WERE there, believe it or not…
Tell us how you really feel, don’t hold back…
Ummm… Who gives a shit? Can I get an amen from the congregation?
I do.
Lots of people do, in fact. They’re the ones who become baseball historians.
You’re joking, right?
My apologies to the masses who become baseball historians because they are pissed off about the myth of Babe Ruth’s called shot.
No, I’m saying that the people who are interested in what really happened at certain moments in the history of baseball become baseball historians.
Awesome, ok. My bad.
PS: You should become a baseball historian.
Consider this train of thought dropped.
I really should, shouldn’t I?
Modesi you are now an honorary member of the “Called Shot Truthers” movement.
We have business cards.
Can’t I just claim I didn’t know what the “Called Shot Truthers” organization stands for, and deny that I was a card-carrying member for years, and deny that I’ve spoken at their conventions, and get angry at anyone who suggests otherwise for not showing me the proper deference?
Nope, every member is required to speak at the HOF induction ceremonies. That’s your official initiation.
If you don’t want to, we just relocate you and force you. Relocation involves large men picking you up and threatening you until you do what we want.
Technically, going by the letter of the law, this is in theory kidnapping. But whatevs.
It was an admittedly lame and obscure joke/reference, but still, you kinda missed it.
That relocation process sounds like a Tuesday night in JMK’s garden apartment.
Would you believe me if I told you that a Tuesday night in JMK’s garden is the direct model for relocation?
I might advise you to contact a therapist, and get tested for venereal diseases pronto, if you told me that.
They let me upstairs now. It’s pretty sweet.
Duplex. Nice.
You might get tossed out of the fraternal order of stat geeks, though. You might not want to tell anyone else.
I have a 7th grade education and a badly chafed penis. I am no stat geek.
So does THCM and yet he considers himself a stat geek.
It takes more than lower level education and a chafed penis to break the stat geek tag.
Babe’s version of the story was almost as cool in my book, but obviously not as family-friendly…. supposedly he told Root the next pitch was going to be knocked right back down his throat, and merely pointed for emphasis.
Curtis Granderson’s jersey from when he went 20-20-20-20
Damn. Not sure how to look this up, but how many other players have ever done that?
Two: Rollins the same year and Mays ’57.
Thanks. The first two 20′s are common, the next two are difficult. All four in one season is almost unheard of, as you just proved.
Willie Mays and Frank “Wildfire” Schulte
Hmmm, ESPN’s article from that day only list those two but Grandy’s Wiki page lists 5.
George Brett (1979), Willie Mays of the New York Giants (1957), Cleveland’s Jeff Heath (1941), St. Louis’ Jim Bottomley (1928), and Frank Schulte of the Chicago Cubs (1911).
I remember rooting for him to get there in 07. I used to check Tigers game to see how he’s doing. Little did I know, he would be playing for the Yanks in 2 and half years. I hope he does it again next year.
Cooperstown should be experienced by every fan. But usually during the spring/summer when its nice out. It must be 20 below there right now.
It’s probably great during the winter, I bet you have the run of the place without all the in-season crowds.
Yeah, the crowds at induction weekend suuuuuuuuuuuck.
Just wait for the crowd of gingers that’ll show up for Bert’s induction, if he ever gets in. You’re gonna stick out like a sore thumb, you swarthy bastard.
Cartman’s worst nightmare.
From Mike’s Twitter pics:
http://twitpic.com/vm3lb
I want that so bad. Really really really bad.
I have it. They’re not hard to get. You can get them with player numbers on the back, too.
Salty’s mind: Blown.
Salty’s gonna get a Bronco’s one w/Orton on the back.
Hah….NEVER!
Oh I found out you could get one. Mike said in a later tweet that it’s $149.95. That’s kinda pricey for me (for now) so I really want one but can’t afford.
Save up… In all honesty, it’s pretty high-quality, the thing lasts. And it’s always good for a laugh with the better half or if you have company over.
A laugh? You mean people respect you more if they see you in such awesome clothing.
Anyway, yea, I’ll try. I want one bad so I’ll get one.
Are they laughing at you or with you?
Oh, most definitely at me. I harbor no illusions about what people think of my Yankee fandom.
They just don’t understand.
Ha… Sadly, I think the problem is that they do understand.
I’ve created a nice comfy wall insulating me from reality, please don’t tear it down.
that looks warm and comfy.
and awesome.
Oooooohhhh TELL ME ABOUT IT!!!
They have one hanging up in the window of the Yankee Store on 5th Avenue. I HAVE to have that!
Can I ask the RAB guys a question? I might have missed this being asked in the past, but how come most of the links on the site don’t open in a new tab or a new page? I just right click myself, but I was always curious as it seems it would make it easier for the masses and it doesn’t seem too difficult (although I know nothing on the costs of owning and operating a website).
Since it’s a bit of a Hall thread. If you had a vote, would you elect Barry Bonds to the HoF?
I would definitely vote yes.
Yes.
I’m softening on this, though. The voting guidelines give the voters leeway to make their choices, in part, on matters unrelated to the game itself. So, really, they have every right to not vote for a guy who used illegal PEDs. The more I think about it the less problem I really have with voters leaving the steroid guys off their ballots, at least the steroid guys we know cheated.
Part of the reason they come down so hard on the guys who get caught is those are the only ones they get to address, and they know for a fact that it was far more rampant. So a few guys bear the brunt for an entire era.
What will probably happen is a few guys will get in (Piazza/Ricky Henderson) and we’ll find out later that they were juicing. Since you can’t vote guys out (If you could, Cap Anson would have been voted out ages ago) then at that point, it will seem silly to throw out the stats from an entire era. At that point, along with a few new generations of writers who grew up in the steroid age, I think players will get voted in. But I think all of this will take 20 years, at least.
I think you or someone else has made a similar comment before… I don’t know, it’s all speculation… I guess that could happen. I don’t know if I can see all the people who care about PEDs throwing their hands in the air and voting for PED guys just because there might be a few PED guys in the HOF already. They might change their minds and vote for the PED guys eventually, anyway, I’m just not convinced that’ll be the reason.
As far as some of these guys are concerned, I’m not sure they’ll ever get voted in by the BBWAA. A guy like Bonds has a better shot than a guy like Sosa, I think, for the obvious reasons. But I’m not so sure a guy like Sosa will ever get in, regardless of whether we find out that any already-inducted HOFers were PED users. We’ll see.
I was the guy who made the similar comment. Just for the record.
Don’t be that guy, RRR!
RRR: http://torontoist.com/attachme.....nville.jpg (safe)
I’m not up to date on pop culture at all. Anything from Friends-about five years ago is obscure to me.
PCU?
Yeah, PCU… The scene in the beginning when Gutter is wearing the t-shirt of the band he’s going to see in concert. Piven: “Don’t be that guy.”
Nope, I wouldn’t vote for him.
Although I will say he meets the only standard that makes sense to me in the steroid era, and that’s holding the steroid guys to a higher standard. But I’m still perfectly happy to keep anyone who got caught out of the HOF, at least for now. Time will likely change things, and there will be certain guys who I’m sure I’ll have trouble keeping out. But for now I say let them all wait until the dust settles and we can all make some sense of the past 20 years.
I have to say, your post from several months ago about letting steroid guys into the HOF still stands out to me as the best analysis on that topic I’ve ever read.
Does anyone have that post bookmarked? I’d love to see it.
Here you go, buddy.
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....era-15259/
Gracias.
“I can’t pretend roughly 20 years of the games history either doesn’t exist, or should be completely ignored in posterity.”
Sorry to pick out one quote to respond to, but I like taking the easy way out…
I agree with you… But do you think that means the PED guys have to be enshrined in the HOF? I mean, we can’t pretend the last 20+ years didn’t exist or pretend certain players didn’t do the things they did, but does that mean we have to honor them and enshrine them in the HOF?
Let everyone stay in the record books, there’s no need, nor any fair nor effective way, to start acting like things that happened didn’t happen. But I’m not sure that means we have to honor known cheaters by putting them in the HOF. Induction into the HOF is an honor, I don’t think any of these guys has any sort of right to consideration for induction.
Then again, I don’t really care who gets into the HOF, I have no problem with letting the popular will rule.
No, what I’m saying is that the Steroid Era will eventually be viewed like the Dead Ball Era. One where the records count, but informed fans don’t take them seriously, or try to compare them to other periods. That’s why I used the Honus Wagner/Hugh Duffy/Cy Young comps.
That’s not what I meant… I agree, the records should all count, the record book should remain unaltered. But I think there’s a difference between (a) acknowledging the records and the games that occurred and (b) voting known cheaters into the HOF. We can keep their records without honoring them with HOF induction, is all I’m saying.
Again, this is coming from a guy who would probably vote for the PED guys, under the current rules/customs. Just thinking out loud.
There’s certainly precedence for guys who were ‘cheating to win’. Gaylord Perry was voted in no problem. But as I detailed in the piece, the ramifications of steroids go far beyond doctoring a ball. If left unchecked, it could become a price of admission for young athletes. Altering a ball is unsportsmanlike, altering your body is downright creepy.
But again, people have to make these calls for themselves. Personally I’d like to make the cheaters wait, even if they get in eventually. Just to let the dust settle.
Thanks, I really appreciate that.
I understand that, but who are the steroid guys? We simply don’t know, so how can we hold them to a higher standard?
If the whole era is tainted, I say you lick the taint and offer a free pass from whenever the era started (late 80s?) to when they were officially banned by MLB. Sosa is in, A-Rod, Bonds, McGwire, Rafael Palmiero. It’s going to be a mess one way or another. I’m not sure there can be a middle ground on the issue. You either completely remove it from the equation or you completely shut out anyone associated with it. And frankly, that may be a great injustice to the careers of guys like A-Rod, Bonds, etc. It’s a tough call.
I will say this, though, if the PEDs were legal when the player took them, they should not fall under any scrutiny.
“I understand that, but who are the steroid guys? We simply don’t know, so how can we hold them to a higher standard?”
But we do know who some of them are. I understand that more people cheated than we actually know about, but that doesn’t mean the people who cheated didn’t break the rules. They don’t get to cloak themselves in innocence just because some of the guilty remain unidentified.
“I will say this, though, if the PEDs were legal when the player took them, they should not fall under any scrutiny.”
I’m fine with that, but any substance used by a player that was used illegally, whether or not it was explicitly banned by MLB, should be included in that consideration. If Drug X was illegal but wasn’t explicitly mentioned in the MLB rules, that doesn’t mean the player who used Drug X gets a free pass. MLB rules prohibit the use of illegal substances, whether the substance in question is enumerated in the rules or not.
You’re just mad that Manny Ramirez defied the laws of nature and gave birth.
But seriously, sure, we know who some of them are, but on an anecdotal basis it would seem. Full lists have not and cannot be released and there seems to be little incentive, if any for the players to come out and volunteer that information if they know there’s no Hall possibility.
I’m not sure you can just pick and choose guys based on allegations if there is no actual evidence that can legally be released.
I don’t care that greatly for the Hall (it’s more sentimental), but when it comes down to it, until we’re able to differentiate concretely who’s who in the era, I think you just adjust it based on the era’s statistical trends. I don’t want to see a witch hunt, asterisks or any of that junk. Open up everything or shut out everyone who’s brother’s cousin’s neighbor’s babysitter’s roommate in Union, NJ says that they say Player X take steroids.
There’s no good that comes of this, but at least be resolute and consistent.
“I’m not sure you can just pick and choose guys based on allegations if there is no actual evidence that can legally be released.”
I’m not saying we pick on guys based on purely anecdotal evidence. I’m talking about guys about whom there are well-researched and detailed books about their PED use and legal entanglements (like Bonds), admissions whether under oath or not (like Giambi and A-Rod), guys who fail MLB administered tests (like Manny and Papi), etc. I’m not saying guys should be punished just because someone whispered something about them using PEDs, I’m talking about guys about whom we know they used PEDs.
You’re kind of picking the weakest arguments/ways to go about excluding PED users from the HOF and then attacking those weak arguments. It would be ridiculous to keep guys out based completely on unproven hearsay. When I say that MLB could think about disqualifying from HOF eligibility the guys about whom we know they used PEDs, I mean guys about whom we know they used PEDs. There are plenty of them.
“I don’t care that greatly for the Hall (it’s more sentimental), but when it comes down to it, until we’re able to differentiate concretely who’s who in the era, I think you just adjust it based on the era’s statistical trends. I don’t want to see a witch hunt, asterisks or any of that junk.”
Again, I’m not sure why you think I’m talking about a witchhunt or asterisks. I’ve clearly stated I don’t think the record books should be touched, first of all. I’m also not talking about a witchhunt… I’m saying that if you cheated, and we know that you cheated, I think one of the penalties suffered due to such cheating could be that you are ineligible for enshrinement in the HOF. I’m not sure how that’s a witchhunt. All I’m saying is – you get busted, you’re ineligible for the HOF.
” Open up everything or shut out everyone who’s brother’s cousin’s neighbor’s babysitter’s roommate in Union, NJ says that they say Player X take steroids.”
First of all, again, you’re making my argument in the dumbest possible terms just so you can strike down the dumb argument. I never said anything close to what you’re saying here. I never said we should punish people based on unprovable hearsay. Again… We KNOW some guys used PEDs, we know who they are.
Like I said above: “I understand that more people cheated than we actually know about, but that doesn’t mean the people who cheated didn’t break the rules. They don’t get to cloak themselves in innocence just because some of the guilty remain unidentified.”
If 10 people commit the same crime, but only 4 are caught, do we let them go just because the other 6 didn’t get caught, so it’s not fair to punish the 4 when the 6 escape punishment? Of course not.
“There’s no good that comes of this, but at least be resolute and consistent.”
Which part of anything I’ve said here is inconsistent? What about what I’m proposing would be inconsistent?
I’d vote “Fuck Yes.”
So I’m a bit late on this, but here’s the best gift I got for Christmas this year:
My father (also an avid Yankee fan) is the master of EBay. He turned this prowess into 6 Bowman Jesus Montero rookie cards. Best gift ever.
For the record, on the back of his baseball card, it says, “Shows good movement skills behind plate”. If it says it on his baseball card, it must be true right? Haha.
Shit, now I’ve gotta look that up. Right now I’m trying to collect autographs from the 77′-78′ team, but I’ve also got Yogi, Phil, and Whitey, as well as Donnie Baseball. All from ebay. And w/no bidding, buy it now only.
Last year when we signed 3 type A free agents we lost our first round pick and what else? If you sign multiple type a’s do you only lose one first rounder?
No, you lose 2nd and 3rd rounders, too.
No… If you’ve signed one type-A and then you sign another, you lose your second round pick… Then you lose your third round pick if you sign another type-A, and so on and so forth.
Last year, when the Yankees signed 3 type-A free agents, they lost their first, second and third round draft picks.
I have tickets to see the Nets tomorrow and I kind of don’t want to go. At least the other game I went to the seats were courtside…
How come? Too cold, too far, or too depressing?
Ever watch a really bad romantic comedy? Now picture that same movie starring MC Hammer and Courtney Love. The 2010 NJ Nets.
Anybody think this is a wee bit overpriced?:
http://cgi.ebay.com/BOWMAN-CHR.....2c521a07bd
Dude, it’s chrome. That’s cheap for solid chrome.
And well, it’s Jesus! Jesus will make everything worth it.
I know nothing at all about the price of chrome in today’s market, so I’ll take your word for it.
I’m, just bustin on ya. I doubt that’s actual chrome. If it is, make yourself a fancy new bumper for your car.
If it’s not real chrome then I go back to my original statement about it being ridiculously overpriced.
Mondesi – do you have a player number on the back of your robe? If so, who? And, if so, that’s insanely awesome and you’re my hero.
Haha… No, I actually don’t. I got mine before they sold them with numbers. As embarrassing as this is, I was pretty pissed when they started selling them with numbers on the back.
Mine was totally a drunk purchase one day at the stadium a few years ago. I think I was there with some friends for my b-day or something, and I went to get a beer and came back with a f*cking gigantic bathrobe, it was funny. Oh and the thing is gigantic by the way… I don’t know if they sell different sizes now, but when I got it they only sold one size, which was like Steve Balboni sized.
I’ve pondered getting another one with numbers, or buying numbers and having someone sew them on or something… I can’t buy another one though, it’s just too awful a waste of money… And the sewing numbers on, thing… I’m just not motivated enough. I blame the drugs.
That Yankee bathrobe I was drooling over is $189. Yikes.
http://www.sportrobe.com/detai.....5Qod5m49Jw
Although that’s with a name and number on the back. THe regular one is just $149.
I’m torn. I could really use a bathrobe and I love, love, L-O-V-E that baby, but that’s a total ripoff. They have thick, plush bathrobes at COSTCO for like, $20-$30.
Exactly. I can’t afford it either. Mondesi says it’s worth it though so I’m still going to try to buy it just because of all the awesomeness that comes with it.
I can afford it, I just have this thing about getting ripped off. I mean, I give Hal about 10K a year for my season tix. You’d think he’d toss one of those fuckers in, you know?!?!?!?
You should talk to him then. Hal seems like a reasonable guy. Just say some dumb shit like “I will hurt Jesus Montero if you don’t give me that robe.” I don’t know why you would say that but I’m just saying.
*just don’t
Hmmm . . . I don’t think that will work, but I like where you’re going. I’m going to call the Yankees first thing tomorrow morning, demand to speak to Hal and tell him “IF I DON’T GET THAT DAMN ROBE I’M GOING TO HURT SALTY BUGGAH!! YOU HEAR?!?”
Sure, but he isn’t going to care about me. He’ll care about Jesus
Dude… I know it’s a waste of money… But as someone who has the robe, I can tell you that I’ve never had a bathrobe this comfortable and plush. It’s really a pretty sweet robe. I don’t know if it’s $150 worth of sweet robe, but it’s sweet nonetheless.
*melts in a puddle of goo*
I got slippers in Yankee colors and the WS logo on them for Christmas.
BTW, who here is DVRing the 2009 Yankeeography.
(Raises hand)
I wish. No YES in Colorado unfortunately. YES should be a national channel
How do you even survive? I might in fact kill myself with no YES.
Yea, it sucks. MLB.tv helps a bit during the season. Not having YES is one of the reasons I don’t hate Michael Kay (though he does get kinda annoying at time by the end of the season) like some and not having WCBS is one reason is don’t hate Sterling/Waldman.
I hoped their site would have more video content for people like me but they don’t really. They have some player interviews, which are nice, but I would really like some stuff like some Yankeeography clips.
I thought YES was on Nationwide on Direct TV.
Really? That’s why Dish freakin sucks.
But I dont think it offers normal programming, only games.
From Wiki:
YES has a national feed of the network. This feed does not feature live games, but does include both the pre and post game shows. Alternate programming is shown during games. Verizon FiOS (regionally) and Bright House Networks[7] (Tampa Bay and Orlando systems) are currently two of the providers that carry YES outside of the New York DMA. This feed is different than that of the satellite feed available on DirecTV in which Yankees and / or Nets games can be viewed outside of the teams’ markets with a subscription to MLB Extra Innings and / or NBA League Pass.
Hee hee hee. We actually have YES in HD too.
I wish. No YES in Colorado unfortunately. YES should be a
nationaluniversal channelSee what I did there?
I grew up near Syracuse so I traveled to the induction ceremonies quite often. My father and I made a special trip up from Tampa to see the Ripken and Gywnn ceremony and it was nucking futs! They say there were about 78K people but there was easily 100K. My dad said the only other time its been that crazy was for Reggie.
My brother-in-law’s brother owns a “Holiday Inn” in Cooperstown. He said when Ripken got inducted, Cal rented out the entire hotel for his family and friends.
David Lee is such a beast!!
Knicks gotta put the hammer down. Keep the D solid guys!
I’m glad Dierkes over at MLBTR didn’t run the garbage rumor of a 3-way trade talk among the Pads-RS-Cubs. Dierkes called it “overzealous” but then took a nice shot at ESPN “Since the speculation was obviously BS in the first place, we never covered that stuff. We try to filter for you guys.”
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....hnson.html
Kelly Johnson signs w/the D-Backs.
Good pickup for 1/$2M
Yeah, he had the most upside of the guys I’d been considering of the Church, Reed Johnson, Tatis, Nady tier.
so my brother is a mets fan…yeah i know. here’s our facebook exchange:
Michael Randle
we got jason bay yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tim Randle
you mean the mets???
so now you need…what…? 8 position players, 3 middle relievers and 4 starters?
YOU.ARE.ON.THE.WAY!!!
and dont let anybody tell you differently!
about a minute ago ·
Michael Randle
i fuckin hate you sometimes lol
a few seconds ago
That’s funny shit right there.
Mondesi, did you see my nickname idea for Jesus earlier today? I know your married to “El Carpintero”, but how about “El Redentor”? I just don’t want people thinking Montero is Chris Carpenter.
No I didn’t see that comment thread…
I’m sure I’m just married to El Carpintero just because it was my idea, but I still like it better. Redentor only hits the Jesus part of Montero, while Carpintero hits that part and also the baseball part. I dunno, I just like it.
PS: I don’t think anyone’s going to think we’re talking about Chris Carpenter when we’re referring to El Carpintero hitting bombs out of YS3. (knock on wood) I think it’ll be pretty clear we’re talking about The Jesus.
Okay. So i’ve got a crazy name for LF. How about …. ANGEL PAGAN.
its an upside play and judging from Pagan’s 09 stats he might prove to be a league average offensive and defensive LF. In 343 at-bats, Pagan OPS’d .837 and provided a solid UZR of 4.5. The Mets are playing Francouer, Beltran, and now Bay. We could unload 1 of Mitre or Gaudin in return for Pagan.
Thoughts?
.715 OPS in the minors. Not likely an upgrade on Gritner.
You wanna know something crazy and interesting. In 177 home at-bats, Pagan OPS’d .938. In friggin Citi-Field.
I think there’s projection in that bat that Gardner doesn’t offer.
Brett OPS’d 1.236 at Citifield*.
*I am, in no way, endorsing a Brett Gardner starting role.
A monster 5 for 6 game can do wonders. Gardner’s got a more solid OBP record going into his minor league time. Pagan’s got a solid sample of 343 at-bats of ML time. Dude was probably the best hitter on that Mets squad for a month or so.
Cash should take a good look at this kid.
Obviously small sample size warning, but he also can’t appear to hit lefties.
In 288 ML PAs: .245/.291/.425/.717 tOPS=84
In 191 MiL PAs: .283/.317/.408/.725
Pass.
The MiL lefty splits are from 2005 on. Minor League Splits doesn’t appear to have earlier data.
But rest assured, he isn’t worth it.
Pagan’s 2009 was his first real shot at real playing time, and the guy came through across the board. Yeah Pagan’s SSS as a ML’er is the serious caveat when arguing upside, but he hit lefties in ’09.
As a switch hitter, Pagan showed the same power against both RHP and LHP. I’m not saying pencil him in as starter, but 2009 showed Pagan as starter-material skills in a punch-less offense.
He has plus defense, pretty good speed and performed well in roughly a half season. It’s not that he’s totally unattractive or anything, but there’s not a whole lot to go on.
His overall track record shows he’s very poor against lefties. Maybe he’s turned the corner, who knows?
But is that risk worth giving up prospects for a possible tiny upgrade over someone like Reed Johnson who will only cost a small amount of money?
The Mets have little reason to trade Pagan unless they’re given a great deal. No reason for the Yankees to do that considering the other options out there.
He had over 2500 AB’s in the minors. He’ll be 29 this year. I don’t see it, at all.
In fairness, he hasn’t played meaningful time in the minors since 2005. Not that I’m advocating for him, but it’s not like he just took a sniff of major league jock this year.
Via ESPN:
Bay has been maligned in some quarters for his subpar defense, but the Mets analyzed the metrics and found that he suffered in Boston from the “Fenway Park factor.” They think his perceived lack of range in left field was accentuated by the minimal area of ground he had to cover in Fenway.
WTF does that mean? That makes no sense
UZR puts a lot of weight into a fielder’s range, and if you’re familiar with Fenway, it has the shallowest left field in the game (hence the Green Monster).
A fielder basically doesn’t have as many opportunities to show off his range in Fenway’s left field compared to just about any other MLB stadium, and takes a hit in his UZR accordingly.
I think UZR adjusts for park. Also, in 2007 he was in Pittsburgh. The past 3 years he’s been -11.4, -18.2 and -11.2
He sucks. Gonna be REAL interesting what kind of UZR he posts up at Citi
I’ll say what (I think) it means, not that I agree. I assume they are saying that since the Green Monster is so close, there’s less of a LF zone, and therefore you can’t catch balls, say, 340 feet back in a certain spot, because the Monster cuts that spot off. Either way, it’s wrong.
LOL @ This from a message board.
1st guys says in part:
“Shelly Duncan for Prince Fielder – Lefty DH
Trade Eric Duncan for Roy Halladay
Why can’t Cashman see the obvious!!!??? THESE MOVES NEED TO BE MADE NOW!!!!!”
2nd Guy says:
“Its hard to trade players that aren’t in your organization. IE The Duncan’s.
So are you saying we should sign the Duncan’s???? IS CASHMAN STUPID???
Can’t be done..
so i propose this
Kevin Russo for Price Fielder.
and
Austin Krum for Doc Halladay.”
3rd guy says: “Just unbelievable – you’re not going to get Halladay for Krum alone – now maybe if you throw in Taylor Grote and add a little Damon Sublett – Philly will hand deliver him to you – no – Philly will not only trade him but pay his entire contract.”
2nd guy responds: “Well then Philly can take a hike….because i’m not trading Grote for anything! He is obviously the LF of the future and i will have none of it.
plus i can’t give up on the talent of Sublett…an obvious choice to replace Robinson Cano when Cano is traded for Matt Kemp. “
Not for nothing, but it’s not exactly difficult to troll baseball message boards considering the average poster’s knowledge and homerism.
i forgot to say this whole entire conversation was sarcastic as smily faces and LOL’s were added to the end of every post as the folks were making fun of people who want to trade and sign for everyone in baseball.
Wordekemper for Lincecum. Straight up.
WE’VE BEEN OVER THIS. WE CANNOT TRADE PALABRAKEMPER. He’s on my NY Times fantasy crossword team. Absolutely not.
Sergio Mitre for a Smoak-type bat.
Too much. Wordekemper for Lincecum and Sandoval….minimum.
I actually got to play a game on Doubleday field while I was in High School. It was pretty awesome, the pitchers mound was so much better than the shitty HS mounds I was used to pitching off of.
A bunch of friends I went to school with in Albany played on Doubleday field a few times when they were in high school, one hit a home run. He never shut up about it.
Long time reader, don’t think I have ever commented. I have been to Cooperstown a bunch of times and I think my favorite display is the case of rings. It is pretty incredibly to see them in chronological order
Mike, thanks for that slide show. Its been just over 10 years since I last visited the Hall and this was a really great way to start my day here in Cali.
You’ve inspired me to make a return visit asap.
[...] Entering is easy. Just head on over to this page and take a short survey. More info is available here, and the hatip for this one goes to David Pinto at Baseball Musings. He took a break from his Sisyphusian and alphabetical project of posting a short piece on every single baseball player in the Majors Leagues. For more on Cooperstown and the Hall, check out the photos from Mike’s recent visit. [...]