Dec
15

Yanks in a good position after day of pitching moves

By

It all started with a tweet from Ed Price. He talked to a source who said that John Lackey was in Boston taking a physical. Since free agents don’t normally take physical exams unless it’s the last step before signing a contract, the scene was set. The Red Sox would soon announce they signed Lackey. Yet that wasn’t the biggest move of the day. Later in the afternoon, after a short speculation period, the Mariners, Blue Jays, and Phillies worked out a deal that would send Cliff Lee to the Mariners, Roy Halladay to the Phillies, and prospects from both teams to the Blue Jays. It turned out to be the busiest day yet this off-season.

These moves all affect the Yankees in some way or another, so let’s examine the fallout.

Lackey to the Sox

John LackeyWith Lackey pitching behind Josh Beckett and Jon Lester, the Red Sox have an excellent top three. There are concerns about Lackey’s health, but there were greater concerns last winter about A.J. Burnett‘s health, and that worked out for the Yankees. That doesn’t mean it will work for the Sox, but it certainly could. The Sox have plenty of room on their payroll for Lackey, so the move makes even more sense.

The move hurts the Yankees a little, as the Sox figure to have a stronger rotation than last year. The move bumps Daisuke Matsuzaka to the fourth rotation spot, with Tim Wakefield or Clay Buchholz holding down the fifth. The move could turn into an even bigger one for the Sox if they trade Buchholz for a big bat, though they could just as easily keep their pitching depth. As they learned last year, it can dry up quickly.

Overall, the Yankees needn’t worry about Lackey and the Sox. They apparently didn’t have Lackey in their sights, so they shouldn’t mind it when he lands elsewhere, even if it’s with a division rival. He makes the Sox stronger on the pitching end, but the Yanks don’t lag far behind there, if at all, and still have the superior offense. Both teams will continue dealing this off-season, so we’re a long way from figuring out the winners and losers here.

Still, a good move for the Sox.

Halladay to the Phillies

The Yanks’ interest in Roy Halladay always seemed lukewarm at best. It’s not that they didn’t want him. It’s that the cost of acquiring him was a bit high. Perhaps if the Blue Jays’ asking price had dropped later in the off-season the Yankees would have gotten serious, but it never got to that point. Toronto found the offer it wanted, though it took the involvement of a third team.

Halladay to the Phillies is, for the sake of 162 games, a good thing for the Yankees. The only time the Yankees could even possibly face him next year is in a World Series rematch. There’s no sense in thinking about that now, so this is a clear win for the Yankees. It not only gets Halladay out of the division, but out of the American League. The Blue Jays figure to be an even softer team next year, which helps.

Should the Yankees have cashed in Montero and Hughes/Chamberlain for Halladay? I think that’s way too steep a price for one year of a player, though it would also mean signing Halladay to an extension and therefore keeping him off the market. The Phillies get that now. If the Angels or the Red Sox had acquired Halladay, the situation might be a bit different. But as it stands, the Yanks don’t really lose out.

Lee to the Mariners

The Angels lose both of their top free agents, Lackey and Chone Figgins, this off-season. Worse, they lost Figgins to the Mariners, their division rivals. Once the Sox moved on Lackey, the Angels figured to increase their efforts to land Halladay — or, if Halladay was Philadelphia bound, to land Cliff Lee. Unfortunately, none of them are options right now. The Angels are stuck with a rotation headed by Jered Weaver, Scott Kazmir, and Joe Saunders. The Mariners could easily overtake them in 2010.

For their part, the Yankees inquired about Lee, but as with Halladay found the cost prohibitive. Lee won’t do too much damage to the team out in Seattle, though there are some playoff implications here. That shouldn’t concern the Yankees too much. The unbalanced schedule means the Yanks will only face the Ms a few times, so they might see Lee three times, tops. That’s not a huge deal in a 162-game season. Again, the Angels are the team that loses here.

This move affects the Yankees, tough, as it regards the remaining pitching market. The Angels are now more likely players for Ben Sheets and Justin Duchscherer, two potential Yankees targets. Thankfully, it’s doubtful they’ll sign both players, so the Yankees could still add that high-risk starter even if the Angels go all-in for one — probably Sheets, as he has the higher upside. Other than that, the Yankees can proceed as normal.

What’s next for the Yanks

While all three pitchers could have helped out the Yankees next season, none were a necessity. The team has five prospective starters, so adding another one is a luxury. In their position it might be better to add a one-year player, as it leaves them flexibility to use their young pitchers in the rotation in 2011 and beyond. Locking down Lackey or Halladay, in addition to Sabathia and Burnett, would have been a huge commitment.

We’ll continue to speculate on Sheets and Duchscherer because they’re the guys who fit with the Yanks’ current plans. Short deals for high-risk players. It doesn’t always work out, but the Yankees have some depth. They can absorb a one-year deal even if that deal doesn’t pan out. We might see something soon, as Lackey’s deal could open the gates for more starters. After all, each team’s situation is a bit more clear now.

Could we see the Yanks pick up their left fielder in the coming weeks? I think that’s the most likely scenario. They’ll continue to monitor the pitching situation, but I think that adding a left fielder is still atop the priority list. Once they do that, we’ll have a better idea of what they have in mind for the rotation.

Categories : Hot Stove League
  • Mike bk

    cant help but ask it, but at the moment it appears the mariners are getting lee for aumont and tyson gillies, both have good upside, but they are by no means top prospects, so we couldnt have matched that kind of package?

    • Bob Stone

      We’re all still speculating. I haven’t seen anyhting definitive on the deal reagarding prospects so it’s too early to judge.

      • Mike bk

        for the most part it seems reported at this point;

        Toronto gets Taylor, Drabek, D’Arnaud
        Philly gets: Schilling, Aumont, Gilles
        Seattle gets: Lee (maybe a prospect)

        • Evil Empire

          Hey don’t the Phillies get some guy named Roy too?

          • ROBTEN

            Amaro: Hey Alex, I was just going over the paper work for this trade…something seems to be missing.

            Anthopoulos: Why, Ruben, I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

            Amaro: Uh…First Name: Roy, Last Name: Halladay. Does it ring a bell?

            Anthopoulos: I don’t know…Could you describe him?

            Amaro: Just give it up.

            Anthopoulos: Well, the rest of the paper work seems to be in order, we can just fill that in later. I think I have some white-out here somewhere…

            Amaro: Sorry Alex, this is not gonna fly. Who do you think you’re dealing with, the White Sox?

            /and scene…

            • Evil Empire

              Hahaha The White Sox are always a good punch line.

              I laughed.

        • BklynJT

          That just seems weird to me. The Phillies are giving up Lee and 3 prospects for Halladay + whatever… That whatever sure better hard-on worthy.

        • Bob Stone

          I just read the ESPN story – dateline 12/14/09, 11:42pm. You seem right except that it is still Drabek or Happ though more likely Drabek. There’s nothing in ESPN’s report about Schilling (that’s a joke right?), Aumont (he’s apparently not moving) or another prospect.

          So, as far as I’m concerned the pieces are still moving.

          Another small detail – Phillies Doctors still have to sign off on Halladay’s physical.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

      The price was decreased because Lee is a one-year rental.

      And, if Lee’s a one year rental, that means he’ll be on the market at year’s end, so we’re best served being patient and just signing him if we really want him.

      • larryf

        to replace Andy who will be done….

    • Salty Buggah

      Just in case someone doesn’t know, Aumont is a reliever according to one of the scouts on Twitter (I think it was Ben Badler but I forgot).

  • pat

    It appears Lee really wants to test the FA market. That could most definitely affect us next year.

    • TheLastClown

      Damn skippy. Hello Andy Pettitte replacement.

      • KK

        With any luck, Andy Pettitte’s replacement will be Andy Pettitte. Unless he absolutely implodes this year, anyways.

        • TheLastClown

          Or decides to retire.

  • dkidd

    yankees 2011 rotation:

    cc
    cliff lee
    burnett
    joba
    phil

  • Hey ZZ

    Isn’t Jarrod Washburn a FA? Why has he not been linked to a single team if so?

    • Evil Empire

      Because he sucks?

      I think he’d been kinda-sorta linked to the Mariners during the beginning of the off season.

    • Dax J

      Probably his results for last year? I remember him not faring all to well after he got traded.

    • DP

      Because he’s old and mediocre.

    • Hey ZZ

      Ok.

      I will respond to all 3, since they say roughly the same thing.

      1. Every team in baseball right now is looking for mediocre pitching now that Lackey is off the market

      2. I believe he was injured last year once he was in Detroit, and that is quite a small sample to judge a player on, no?

      3. Before you say he is only good because of Safeco

      2007-2009
      Home ERA: 4.63
      Away ERA: 3.82

      Jarrod Washburn would not be the worst thing for any team looking for rotation depth. Not necessarily saying I want the Yankees to sign him, but I find I do not think we should dismiss him

      • Evil Empire

        The Yankees don’t need mediocre pitching, they already have that with Chadio Mitdin and younger prospects who would take some lumps but probably get by on their talent. They need high-upside pitching, if they want to bother with getting another starter to begin with.

        I mean, unless Washburn would sign a minor league deal with an invite to ST. Obviously something like that you’d jump on.

        But that will, of course, not happen. I could see him ending up with some team in the AL Central, or the Mariners.

        • Hey ZZ

          Your right a guy like Sheets even for more money is a much better idea. The original inquiry was more into his market in general that the Yankees getting him. Honestly, it was really targeted at the Mets since they need pitching

          • Evil Empire

            Mets could make a lot of sense. Washburn needs a big ballpark…though pitching in Comerica down the stretch didn’t seem to do anything for him.

            Mariners seem to me the likeliest. He comes back to them on a 1 or 2year deal, eats a lot of innings, and helps them win the AL West.

          • KK

            Why would Ben Sheets be a good idea – They just got rid of Wang because he was coming off a shoulder issue, so the logical step is to NOT sign a guy who has made a career of being injured. Especially when that guy has a career HR/9 that is double that of Wang in an inferior league. That isn’t gonna play well in the bandbox that is Yankee Stadium.

            • http://phabfour.blogspot.com/ Double-J

              That isn’t gonna play well in the bandbox that is Yankee Stadium.

              I didn’t realize people were still throwing this around as if, you know, it was true. Hah. I guess I was wrong. :P

            • Rose

              I agree. Although in all fairness, they wanted to keep Wang. They just didn’t want to give Wang guaranteed money upfront…which is why they’re (Wang Regime) looking elsewhere.

              Plus, a healthy Sheets is >>>> a healthy Wang

      • DP

        1. Most teams are probably hoping to find better mediocre value in cheaper, younger, non-Boras alternatives.

        2. I thought he sucked before the trade

        3. Career K/9: 5.3. K/BB: 1.94. Before last season (with a .254 BABIP), he hadn’t had a WHIP below 1.32 since 2003. Also before last year, he had 5 of out 6 years of the best ERA+ being 101.

        Pass.

  • Crazy Eyes Killa

    I hope they are committed to that whole “getting younger and more athletic” thing when selecting a LF’er. There’s a really good one out there in his prime, might cost a pretty penny though.

    • DP

      Emil Brown?

    • Evil Empire

      That’s right, Johnny Damon still has 10 peak years – at least – to go! He’s worth every penny of the $100M contract he’s demanding.

      /Boras’d

    • bkight13

      The Cardinals have reportedly offered 8/128 for Holliday. I’d love to get him, but that is too many years.

      • Hey ZZ

        Did they really?

      • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

        Don’t say things like that. Read the commenting guidelines.

        • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

          Sorry. You appear to not have been screwing around, but at least provide a link if you throw that sort of statement out.

      • http://phabfour.blogspot.com/ Double-J

        Wait, I thought the details were “undisclosed” thus far. I’m interested to find out where you heard that. For 8/128, they can have him.

        • http://phabfour.blogspot.com/ Double-J

          Oops, nevermind. I just read below.

  • Mike bk

    “The Cardinals have offered Matt Holliday a deal which would pay him $16MM per year for at least eight seasons, writes Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch”

    • pat

      Holy shit. There goes my plan to lowball him.

    • YankeeGaGa

      He should sign that.

      • scooter

        Yow!
        So much for that idea. Forget Bay at 5 years and Holliday at 8

        Right now Damon at 2/20 makes the most sense – if not, then (assuming the wrist is healthy), Yankees COULD sign Byrd or DeRosa (who would play at 3rd, 1st, and LF)

        Byrd would be a big defensive upgrade in LF – but his road/home splits scare me.

        DeRosa needs to prove he’s healthy – even then, his D at 3rd kind of sucks

        As already posted on RAB, Kelly Johnson really would be a nice under-the-radar choice. Even Fangraphs agrees:
        http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....lternative

        Bill James projects an OPS of .799 and an OBP of .354. I’d sign up for that – and on the cheap.

        You could still sign Delgado and Sheets, and stay roughly within budget

        • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

          James is often way too optimistic. I’d temper my expectations on him.

        • Evil Empire

          Ewww, no Byrd unless he takes a 4th outfielder’s salary. No DeRosa unless he takes a one year deal for like … not a lot of money.

          Kelly Johnson is worth a thought, I suppose. Damon continues to be the best option though, you’re right.

    • Evil Empire

      Link?

      Would the Cardinals really ink him to a $128M deal?

      • Evil Empire

        http://www.stltoday.com/stltod.....enDocument

        Wow. Good for them. I guess?

      • KK

        The fact that Holliday hasn’t jumped all over that and signed it yet is appalling. He isn’t worth nearly that much. Especially if Jason Bay is only worth 13 million a year (and they’re more or less the same guy)

    • Rose

      I saw that…what the hell are they going to be willing to pay Pujols next year (or whenever that time is)?

    • mustang

      Damon having a real good day.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      That is fucking insane. Holy shit.

    • http://twitter.com/riddering Riddering

      Holy shit, that’s a lot of money for St. Louis to offer but the years boggle my mind.

      • Hey ZZ

        I agree on the years. Thats crazy without the safety net of being able to make him a DH when he is 36+

      • A.D.

        The speculation is there are several options in there.

    • Tseng

      That is ridiculously good for Holliday.

    • pat

      They’re gonna be paying 2 people like 40 million dollars for about 5 years. DAMN That’s Yankee-esque.

    • Drew

      Maybe they are preparing to part with Pujols in 2 years?

      • http://twitter.com/riddering Riddering

        I cannot imagine how the Cardinals organization would sign Holliday with the idea of letting Pujols walk.

        • Drew

          Heh. I can’t imagine them offering Matt Holliday $130 million but that may have just happened.

  • Rose

    Still pretty mad about Matsui going to the Angels for $6.5M!!!

    Unbelievable…

    • Evil Empire

      Seriously?

      I’ve learned a while ago that Cashman generally knows what he’s doing. He makes some cold blooded evaluations. No one knows Matsui and his medical records better than the Yankees. Chill. The Yankees didn’t want him that badly, and there’s surely a legitimate reason(s) for it.

      • Rose

        What could he have done during the offseason that would have made him worse than the way he was playing last year? He was World Series MVP for God’s sake! So from the point of being an MVP, he might have tweaked his knee getting up to put a bluray porn dvd in the player I guess lol

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

          He was World Series MVP for God’s sake! So from the point of being an MVP,

          Again:

          World Series MVP trophy: doesn’t mean shit

          • Rose

            The guy was a key contributor through out the season AND playoffs. MVP or not…

            I basically through that in there for flare. Either way, he was perfectly fine all year.

            • Drew

              I expect our 2010 DH/DH’s to be a big contributor as well.

              • YankFanDave

                This reminds me of when the Yanks lost Andy Pettitte 2004. They were interested but were not willing to match an early good offer from another team thereby losing him. I’m not saying it will have the same impact but they may have had too much patience.

                • Rose

                  Agreed.

            • A.D.

              David Eckstein was a WS MVP, enough said.

          • Drew

            Are you trying to tell me that we shouldn’t extend Melky for 5 years even though he OPS’d 940 in the ALCS?

            • Rose

              [rolls eyes]

              Yes, whatever you want to pretend. That’s what I’m saying.

              [pats Drew on the head and gives him a treat]

            • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

              I lol’d, Drew.

              • Rose

                Congratulations.

                [pats JMK on the head and gives him the rest of the treat Drew chewed up and left on the floor]

                • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

                  Aww…don’t get all sour.

                • Rose

                  oh cmon its a joke. lol

          • http://Youcan'tincreaseyourrange TLVP

            Disagree – they mean a lot, a lot about the past that is. They mean virtually nothing about how much someone should get paid in the future…

        • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          “What could he have done during the offseason that would have made him worse than the way he was playing last year?”

          Gotten a year older and not magically grown new knees. Players get worse as they age in their 30s, not better.

          Look, we all love Matsui, but the Yankees obviously decided he’s just too much of a risk, due to age and injuries, for them to continue carrying on the roster. They (and their medical and coaching staffs) know him better than anyone, or any organization. If they had this little interest in him, I think we kind of have to defer to their judgment on this one. If they think 2009 was the absolute freak-occurrence wet-dream performance from Matsui and that the guy’s just not worth the risk moving forward, I don’t think we can really kill them for feeling that way.

          • Rose

            Well now we are at Damon and Boras’s mercy as there aren’t many other options…and they know this. OR we can fight the Cardinals ridiculous (yet speculated) 128M offer. OR we can do the stupid thing which will probably happen…and sign Jason Bay to a horrible contract because we missed out on whatever Holliday plan Cashman may have had.

            Listen, I know Matsui came with risk…but for 1 year and literally half of what he was being paid? If he could give us 3/4 of what he gave us last year that would cover it. Which is more likely than banking on Melky, Gardner, Hughes, Joba, and Swisher all repeating or exceeding what they did last year at the same time…while assuming Posada, Jeter, Arod, etc. all have no change getting older (like Matsui).

            I’m just so confused right now on what we’re going to do…I’m not necessarily “panicking” but I’m VERY curious.

            • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

              Or we sign a cheaper DH option, like a Delgado or maybe Johnson (depending on what he wants) or Thome or something, grab one of the pitchers who is available, and call it an offseason.

              All is not lost, Rose. The Sox will get better… As much shit as we like to give them, they have smart guys in their front office and they have a ton of money to play with and a good development system. But the Yanks will get better, too. All is not lost just because we happened to like a couple of guys who signed elsewhere.

            • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

              And dude… Saying your not panicking doesn’t mean you’re not panicking… You’re having a bit of a nervous evening, but the Yankees are still going into 2010 as the World Champs, they added a good, young, relatively cheap center fielder who’ll probably hit 30-35 HRs in 2010, and they still have some money to play with this offseason. It’s December, there’s plenty of time to go before the season starts and there are plenty of chips still in play. Just try to keep it all in perspective.

              • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

                And Hughes and Chamberlain and Robertson and the rest of the young arms will be a year further into their development, the middle of the order is absolutely beastly, the Yanks have the greatest closer to ever play the game, and a bad-ass MoFo leading the rotation. There’s a lot of growth going on with the younger guys, and the stalwarts are still there and they’re still some of the absolute best players in baseball. Times are good.

                • Rose

                  Yeah I know. Thanks for the reassurance. I’ve had a few beers tonight and lost in the first round of my fantasy football playoffs by .16 points. Not that I’m taking it out all on here…but the news during the day wasn’t exactly the best. Well, Matsui. And I know his issues but I’ve been a huge Matsui fan for a while so it’s hitting me pretty good right now haha

                • larryf

                  and Grittner and melky will have another year (with a world series) under their belt and are both young/cheap and healthy. Cashman must Nova more than we do….

      • BklynJT

        I think the Yankees wanted him, but Cashman was just trying to take care of other business first. He was trying to figure out what to do with LF before having to get a DH, especially if he got a LF who could hit just as well as a DH; then he wouldn’t need Matsui’s service. Unfortunately, this did not fit into Matsui’s timeline.

        Seems like a lot of the targets on our list are starting to slowly dwindle down.

      • KK

        Because, like Bobby Abreu, he stopped being productive.

        … oh wait…

    • Crazy Eyes Killa

      I know.

      I think they just wanted him off the books real bad because of frustration over the injuries. But he’s been a force though when healthy, I still can’t believe he’ll be playing for another MLB team. So strange.

      • Rose

        Exactly. Real strange. The Japanese press must be ripping their hair out…either that or jumping for joy. Who knows if they feel LA is better than NY.

        • KK

          They do now.

  • Brent

    I honestly think the Yankees are going to sign Holliday. Up to about 3 hours ago, I didn’t think Holliday would be a Yankee. Then, a revelation. If B-Ca$h passed up on Cameron, and made two “accept it if you want, we don’t really need you that badly” offers to Matsui and Damon respectively, I realized B-Ca$h must have something far more sinister than we can imagine up his sleeve…

    • Rose

      Who the hell knows what he’s doing.

      After today the confidence level took a hit. I really have no idea what Cashman is doing as of right now…

      Everybody we talked about is gone…except for some of the high risk pitchers…that’s about it.

      • Dax J

        I wouldn’t say my confidence level took a hit. I can’t wait to see what Cashmeezy has under his sleeves.

        • Rose

          Without spending countless amounts of dollars?

          • Dax J

            It does boggle the mind, but he’s the GM. He knows what to do. Our job is to worry sick and criticize his every move.

      • DP

        Everybody we talked about is gone

        I know! Fuck! I wanted Craig Counsell sooo bad!

        • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

          I lol’d.

      • KK

        Cashman’s probably sitting in a lounge chair, scoffing at how brilliant he is for winning a World Series and then landing Granderson (who we all know is a replacement for the guy who should have been in CF, Carlos Beltran).

        Next season, when things go to hell ‘cuz he gave up too many pieces of a championship team, he’ll panic and spend 400 million on 3 big name players, and all will be right again… for one more year, until the cycle begins anew.

        • AndrewYF

          Fine by me. Joe Mauer and Cliff Lee here we come!

      • Zack

        That’s a ridiculous statement IMO.

        Two weeks ago Cash was a genius for getting Andy and Granderson done so quickly. Say he didnt make those moves, and say they happened tomorrow, what would be your reaction? OMG Cash made moves to offset the Sox’s moves, great plan Cash. But now since he moved quicker than Theo he has no plan and confidence?
        Just typical Yankee fan craziness

    • Crazy Eyes Killa

      Now theres already a huge bid they’d have to top to do so.

      • mustang

        Not necessary reference Carlos Beltran 2005

    • mustang

      Sorry I meant here:
      I agree. I think its the Carlos Beltran situation all over again, but this time they are not going to pass.

    • joemomma

      he is going to sweep bay from the mets and soxs lol

    • Kelvz

      Something more sinister?

      With that large offer by the Cardinals to Holliday…

      Pujols to the Yanks!

      You heard it here first.

    • putt

      I kinda have the same feeling, but I also don’t want to fall into the trap of thinking that every year there will be some sort of ninja-like Tex move that went down last year. I’m not convinced the move will be a huge one.

    • toad

      I thiught so too. In fact I suspected they were close on Holliday. Maybe he didn’t anticipate the size of the St. Louis offer.

  • mustang

    I agree. I think its the Carlos Beltran situation all over again, but this time they are not going to pass.

  • joemomma

    can someone explain to me why the phils-m’s-jays trade is good? i think the phils are losing on this trade, i mean cliff lee and prospects for roy? who is older then lee and im pretty sure lee is about as good as roy maybe roy is like 2 miles better but seems like a waste to me atleast

    • mustang

      Lee wasn’t going to sign. Roy is better and was willing to sign.

      • KK

        And Lee is not as good as Halladay. That opinion is either a blatant underestimation of how good Halladay actually is, or a blatant overestimation on Lee’s skills based off of 2 suspiciously good seasons later in his career.

        • larryf

          and Lee is a better hitter!

  • wiljaq1

    Holliday – LF
    Sheets – SP
    Gonzalaz – RP
    Damon – DH

    That’s what’s left that’s worth it.

    • Rose

      If Holliday is 8 years and 128 million or more…we’re toast. Cross him off the list. We aren’t going to…and shouldn’t touch that.

      What looked like a “sit-back” year for the Red Sox…is starting to look like it just reversed on us haha. Yeah, we got Granderson…whoopee. We’re still MUCH worse offensively than last year while keeping the same starting pitching for the most part…and having a similar but perhaps worse bullpen.

      I’m not throwing in the towel…that’s ridiculous…but what the hell else could be done here?

      • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

        I think you’re being a little overly dramatic here. Sure, the Sox made some good moves. I’d be disappointed if they didn’t. They’re a quality organization and that’s what quality organizations do.

        Lackey makes their pitching staff more consistent (though he’s a wild card with injuries and that’s a long contract for a guy who’s good, not great) and Cameron was a smart way to plug a hole and save money on an overrated player (whether it be Bay or Holliday).

        Still, even with the moves they made, it’s still a very competitive race between the two teams. We just won the World Series, and are losing Damon, at worst replacing him with Granderson, and still have time to bring in another LF or DH and possibly a SP.

        Our offense is better than theirs
        Our defense is slightly worse than theirs right now
        Their rotation is slightly better than ours as of now
        Our bullpen is slightly better than theirs.

        It’s close. BUT THE OFF SEASON IS NOT OVER BY A LONG SHOT. RELAX, MAN.

        • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          This.

          Not to mention… WE DON’T HAVE TO JUDGE EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION MADE BY THE SOX AND THE YANKS THROUGH THE PRISM OF HOW EACH SUCH TRANSACTION AFFECTS A RIVALRY WITH ONE TEAM. Good Mo, I know I’m fighting a losing battle by saying that all the time, but I wish it would catch on just a little bit.

          • Rose

            The Sox still won 95 games last year with the team they put out there in 09…and split the season series against us. They got much better…if we keep this team as is…we got much worse.

            Do we need to compare with them on every move? No. But in this case it’s a little important lol

            • TheLastClown

              To be fair, CMW imploded against the Sox. We’re not sending a limp Wang out there this year.

              /had to’d

            • http://www.facebook.com/dougchu Doug

              Boston will be hard-pressed to win 95 games again next year.

              Unless they plan on winning a lot of 2-1 or 3-2 games.

            • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

              This team is not much worse, right now, than the 2009 team. You’re going to think this through more and realize that.

  • Rose

    Hideki Matsui
    Mike Cameron
    John Lackey
    Matt Holliday

    Now we have Johnny Damon with all his leverage…Jason Bay…and some high risk pitchers to go after.

    I would name other injury risk DH’s like Delgado, Johnson, etc. But if the Yankees refused to even match $6.5M for Matsui…they won’t go near these other guys.

    I’ll be pretty upset with Jason Bay. I’ll be even more angry (if possible) if they sign Damon to more than 2 years.

    I’m scratching my head on what else might happen here…

    • Bob Stone

      I think it all points to the Yanks going hard after Holliday.

    • DP

      Not sure why Holliday is scratched off there. I also don’t remember any real sentiment to get Lackey. Maybe they can pay one of those DHs less than 6.5 million? Wouldn’t that be a good reason?

      • Hey ZZ

        The Yankees are not giving Holliday 8 years

      • Rose

        Just because they’re on there doesn’t mean I, or any of us, were lobbying for him…but he was talked about at some point.

        And Holliday is crossed off because I’m hoping we don’t top that offer…so he’s as good as gone otherwise.

    • KK

      I fear the Juan Miranda – DH era.

      • Rose

        Don’t even say it…that’s the worst idea since Bubba Crosby being the starting CF…

  • Bob Stone

    This has been a crazy day in the old hot stove league. The Cards 8 year offer just made it some kind of record for big deals and big rumors.

    • YankeeGaGa

      8 yrs for Holliday?
      Wow, just wow.

      • Bob Stone

        80years at $16 million per year – total $128 million. $28 million more than they gave to Pujols in 2003.

        • Mike bk

          8 not 80 i assume.

  • e mills

    wanted none of:

    Lackey – Check
    Bay – hopefully check
    Holliday – check if Cards really offered him 16 mil/year for 8 years
    Halladay (for all those prospects) – check
    Lee – check

    Cameron I was hoping they’d get, but no biggie really. Go after Sheets and everything will be all good. In Cashman I Trust.

    • KK

      Cameron’s almost a moral lock for the Red Sox now. I don’t see why everyone thinks Sheets is good – he’s substantially worse than Wang, so unless they plan on getting Sheets for a minimum level contract + incentives, it’s a ridiculous plan.

  • Evil Empire

    GOD DAMMIT ITS NOT FAIR!

    The Yankees might actually have to, y’know, compete against other good teams next year!!!

    Honestly, every team has its weaknesses. The Yankees not signing any major FAs, and passing on Matsui (and Wang, for that matter) could be a ripple effect of signing Teixeira last year.

    We won it all with Melky as our #9 hitter in 2009. We can win it all with Melky as our #9 hitter in 2010. Curtis Granderson is a better player, by far, than Damon or Matsui or Cameron at their respective stages of their careers.

    We’ll still sign another player or two, but the team is great shape even if we go into ST with Melky as our LF and Juan fuckin’ Miranda as our DH (which will not actually happen)

    If just one of Joba OR Phil finds his groove, this team is STACKED. If Robinson Cano raises his game one more level, the team is an offensive juggernaut. If Melky Cabrera develops some more power (he’s only 24), we’re that much better.

    Take a deep breath. The Red Sox are still the 2nd best team in the division. The Angels and Mariners are looking at an epic slug fest in the AL West. The outlook of the National League is irrelevant to the Yankees. Its all good, my friends.

    • Rose

      Damon + Matsui >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Granderson

      Any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

      • Evil Empire

        Well duh, the production 2 players is going to be the better than the production of 1 player.

        And Damon is still on the table.

        Granderson + Matsui OR Damon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matsui + Damon

    • Bob Stone

      Hard to argue with that. I really wanted to see Matsui back – especially for only 1 year at $6.5 million. I will trust that Cashman knows best on that one and had good reasons not to pursue it.

      I keep feeling like the Yanks are going to pull a Holliday deal out of the proverbial hat scooping him from St. Louis like they did with swiping Tex from the BoSox last year. But they don’t really need to do it.

      I would like to see Cash pick up Sheets. Also not necessary but the depth would be a plus.

      • Evil Empire

        I’m with you on Sheets, Bob. Seems like the most logical move at this point. Besides resigning Damon, I want to see that happen more than ever now.

        I was all for Holliday but there is no way in hell you can top 8/128. And if Matty H ain’t going to wear the pinstripes, I’m genuinely glad he’s staying with the Cardinals (or the Brewers, I would’ve thought it’d be fun for him to be a Brewer).

        • Bob Stone

          It’s only a rumor about the Cards offering 8y/$128MM. It could be that there are two option years involved out of the eight. It could be Boras getting one of his plants to exaggerate what’s really being discussed. This is far from over.

          • Evil Empire

            :::pulls cocked gun out of mouth:::

            Oh.

  • Rose

    My guess is that the Yankees had their hand in Holliday the whole time…and the Cardinals are saying “oh no no…sorry…not this year” to the Yankees…basically mushing our plans into the dirt.

    • pete

      and when pujols hits free agency and the cards have no money to pay him…we pay them back for it

    • KK

      All the Yanks need is another left handed power hitter… the whole team looks like that already.

      And given that Holliday can’t hit in the AL (see: Time with A’s, where his SLG% was .100 lower than Matsui or Damon) and it’s a pretty big downgrade for far too much money. I hope the Cards are dumb enough to sign him – he’s not THAT good and he eats up too much salary, it seems like it’d hurt their chances of keeping Puljols long term.

      • Rose

        And given that Holliday can’t hit in the AL (see: Time with A’s, where his SLG% was .100 lower than Matsui or Damon) and it’s a pretty big downgrade for far too much money.

        He did play in Oakland which is a ruthless pitching park in all fairness.

      • yanksfan4life52

        LH power hitter= Jack Cust
        Get Macdougal or Capps for the pen.

  • Rose

    Looks like Cashman overplayed his hand here. Held on to his cards a little too long and may end up paying the piper this year.

    • DP

      The season starts April 4th, not December 15th.

      • Crazy Eyes Killa

        IETCVM

    • ROBTEN

      Meanwhile, behind the scenes in the Yankees’ front office….

      Dr. Peter Venkman: This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions, Cash.

      Cashman: What do you mean, “biblical”?

      Hank: What he means is Old Testament, Cash, real wrath of God type stuff.

      Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.

      Hal: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!

      Hank: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes…

      Kevin Towers (running into the room): The dead rising from the grave!

      Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together… mass hysteria!

      Cashman: That’s all well and good, but what’s Bill Murray doing here?

      • Rose

        Hal and Hank [in unison]: He’s our new DH…all the other ones signed…so we had no choice. It’s our fault though…we were shaving each other’s backs when all of the good stuff was going on…we figured if Murray couldn’t hit…we could at least send him with Theo on his vacation in Lake Winnipesaukee…

    • scooter

      Hey fans – if that 8-year off is true, the Cards have held onto their Card too long.

      WHO BUT!!
      /Fake Michael Kay’d

    • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

      Maybe, but you/we have no idea what Cashman’s plans are. Just because we talked about, for example, Matsui, doesn’t mean Cashman ever had any intention of signing him. For all we know Cashman’s plans haven’t been affected by other teams’ transactions.

  • dch

    Guys-Granderson for Damon-upgrade-Rotating DH of Arod/Posada/Jeter equal to or better than Matsui. We lose a little offense with whoever plays for the DH that day. That is the worst case scenario and that aint bad.

    • Bob Stone

      Not bad at all.

    • Mike bk

      sorry you cant compare it that way. i mean rotating dh for matsui because what you compare to matsui’s production is whomever is filling in each day for the guy playing dh instead of their normal position.

      • KK

        Exactly. I can’t believe people don’t automatically realize this. The comparison isn’t Tex/A-Rod/Posada vs. Matsui, it’s more like Matsui vs. Jerry Hairston Jr.

        • Evil Empire

          He was talking about in a worst case scenario situation. We’re still going to get a LF and/or DH.

          As long as the Yankees “A” lineup contains only one of Melky/Cervelli/Pena, the team is in good shape offensively, comparable to 2009’s.

    • Rose

      Why would you win the World Series with a team and then gamble on winning it again with a worse team though? That’s not how you should run a team. Gamble on certain players…but subtracting key offensive forces and saying we’ll be good enough (taking under consideration that Posada, Jeter, etc. aren’t getting any younger either) just doesn’t make any sense.

      • DP

        IT’S DECEMBER 14TH. Step off the ledge please.

        • Rose

          Are you reading these posts or just mine and jumping the gun? I’m responding to a post saying that the team (as is) is perfectly fine. Regardless of the date and time and star alignment…the hypothetical is that the team is the way it is now. And that is what I was commenting on.

          • DP

            He said “that’s the worst case scenario.” Every post you’ve made has been overwhelmingly pessimistic about 2010 and saying Cashman is an idiot basically because he didn’t want 3 SP locked into long deals (2 injury risks), he didn’t want to give Cameron 2 years (everyone agreed 1 was best for this team), and he let Matsui walk when there is a TON of alternatives- some of whom are going to have to take less than 6.5 million, simply based on supply heavily outweighing demand. Any of these moves (assuming the Yankees even had a chance to top all offers) can be easily justified, and you act like Cashman is a moron.

            • Rose

              You’re saying this because we didn’t get any of them. Just like everybody was against Granderson until he was actually signed. That’s just the nature of the beast. Had we signed them…you’d be singing a different tune about them.

              That being said. If that was a worse case scenario he was talking about…then I was commenting on that worse case scenario. It’s that simple.

              • Drew

                Just like everybody was some people were against Granderson until he was actually signed.

                • Rose

                  Just like everybody was some most people were against Granderson until he was actually signed.

                • Evil Empire

                  FWIW, seemed to me like most people were on board for Granderson when the rumors started swirling, once the price was defined at IPK/Coke/AJax.

                  And if they didn’t, its because they were too in love with the prospects.

                  Most people objectively found it to be a good move for the Yankees. Not great, but good, and would’ve pulled the trigger if they were the Yankees GM. Except for FanGraph’s Dave Cameron. He fucking jizzed in his pants over us getting Grandy. He LOVED it.

  • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

    How is this St. Louis reporter’s cred anyway? I’m going to call BS on this until I hear some verification from another source. Unless Omar Minyana and MC Hammer took over the Cardinals today, I can’t possibly picture that rumor being factual.

    • Bob Stone

      Do I smell a Boras plant?

      • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

        Something doesn’t smell right. They could certainly get him for six considering the current market; no way they go to eight. A mid-market team absolutely cannot afford to spend $16 million p/s on a player like Holliday, especially for what will likely be a steep decline at the year six mark.

        Even if you front-loaded it for $23 million the first three years, you’re still in a bind—you’re paying close to $12 million for the last five years.

        It just doesn’t make sense.

        • Rose

          It really doesn’t. Especially since they’re going to have to re-sign the best player on the planet in another year. Look where they’re going to start. Say Holliday plays mediocre…that will be added in their negotiations too. It just doesn’t make sense.

          Then again, neither did Matsui signing with the Angels for $6.5M. But I digress.

          • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

            The Matsui signing made sense. I would have liked to sign him but I understand why he received that amount and I understand why the Yankees decided not to re-sign him.

    • putt

      That’s the best Hammer reference I’ve heard all day!

  • http://twitter.com/PerminioNeto Permínio Neto

    Do you guys really believe in that Cards’ offer?

    • http://twitter.com/riddering Riddering

      I don’t want to believe it. Mostly because I’m starting to warm up to Holliday and I don’t see the Cards being a team willing to tie up 40% of their salary on two players.

      • http://twitter.com/PerminioNeto Permínio Neto

        Me neither. I can, but I really don’t want to.

    • Hey ZZ

      If that offer is the real deal. 8 GUARANTEED years and 128 million then Holliday would be signing on the dotted line right now.

      Also Heyman would be tweeting his head off right now b/c of his direct link to Boras. That is a real good deal for Holliday that I could not see Holliday turning down. Given that no one else is like Rosenthal or Heyman is saying a deal is close right now I think there is gotta be something up with that deal like 2 option years.

      • Hey ZZ

        or a heavily backloaded contract

    • ecksodia

      8 years seems ludicrous, yes. Why do they need to go that high? To scare off the Yankees? With Pujols’ extension looming, do they really want to tie up a large percentage of their payroll on two players.

    • KK

      If he really had that offer, he would have signed it by now. I don’t think he’s worth more than 16million per

  • Drew

    After today’s moves it’s hilarious how many people brush off the fact that Cash just got us power hitting center-fielder.

    Man this fan base is wild.

    • Evil Empire

      :::drops stone anchor, looks away from edge of bridge:::

      Wait…what?

    • Alan

      ^ This.

      The Holliday rumor is just that, a rumor. It’s not like Mozeliak held a press conference saying “HEY GUYS, WE JUST SCREWED OURSELVES FOR THE FUTURE.”

      Until he signs on the dotted line, it means nothing. Even if he does sign, so what? We JUST got Granderson, and yet we’re ready to jump off the ledge. Sign one of Duchscherer, Sheets, or Bedard. Maybe add Capps to the bullpen. Look for an LF solution, Byrd?

      In Cashman we trust, onwards toward #28.

    • Crazy Eyes Killa

      but the point people are upset about is that if you have Melky at a corner, and no dh, its not a real gain of any offense

      • Drew

        Do you expect us to enter the season with no DH? Have some patience. Spring Training is in March.

      • Evil Empire

        No LF and/or DH signed YET

        The Granderson trade nets a significant gain in defense if Melky is in LF, and while its possible its not a net gain in offense, its at the very least a prudent hedge since Granderson is 5+ years younger than Matsui or Damon.

        And its December 15th, with an abundant number of options via FA or trade still available. The Yankees will go into ST as the all-important odds-on favorite to win the World Series on paper, even though its kind of meaningless.

        Oh, and we won 103 games last year without A-Rod the first 5 weeks, and CMW basically giving 6 games away for free. And fucking up the handling of Joba, who in 2010, should be much better.

        • http://twitter.com/PerminioNeto Permínio Neto

          I have a small doubt with their defense if no other position player is signed. What about moving Melky and his great arm to RF while slotting Swisher in Left? Don’t you guys mess with Swisher in right. Is LF at YS tougher to play (due to dimensions) than RF? I’d like to know your thoughts.

          • Drew

            Swish was adequate in right last year. -1.2 UZR/150.
            Definitely okay considering his offensive production.
            Also, he’s been substantially better than that in his career and it’s possible that after getting accustomed to the Stadium his defense will improve.

            I think I’d rather just leave it as is now rather than have Melky have to adjust to RF.

          • Evil Empire

            Eh, I dunno. Swisher got better the 2nd half of the season after he spoke to Eiland. Melky’s got more range than Swisher and that’s important in the LF of YSIII.

            I’d probably just keep them where they are, I don’t see the move really being a net benefit and isn’t worth the adjustment period.

            I have some doubts about their defense as well – I’d call it about average – but there is no argument that Melky-Granderson-Swisher is a marked defensive upgrade from Damon-Melky-Swisher.

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

              Melky’s got more range than Swisher

              The historical record disagrees with that statement. If Melky has more range than Swisher, he has yet to show it in any tangible way. Swish has better career UZR’s at all 3 outfield spots.

  • Charlie

    well written man. i’ve been busy all day, i barely even realized all this shit went down today. i’m actually relieved to see lackey and halladay off the market, cause i just didn’t think the yanks needed to haul another big contract/trade more prospects.

    • DP

      Players signed contracts with teams other than the Yankees! Trades were made not involving the Yankees! These two facts make Cashman a moron! This is a 75 win team!

      /Rose’d

      • Rose

        I don’t recall ever saying anything like that at all.

        So I guess it’s just as legitimate for me to write something that you would say:

        “I am a racist. I am also homophobic and have strong hatred towards any minority.”

        /DP’d

        • Drew

          I do remember you saying Cashman is an idiot.. Basically because Cam and Godzilla signed(will sign) elsewhere.

        • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

          This will end well…

          • Rose

            You got that dog bone you asked for from Santa already? Good for you…lol

        • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          Dude… I’m speaking up as a friendly voice here… You have to chill a bit. Take a few minutes, go smoke a cig, and just relax a little. I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong, but you’re veering into territory that’s going to get, at best, really fucking annoying for everyone, and, at worst, antagonistic and offensive.

          • Rose

            I might be a little “annoying”…but you of all people should know about “putting words in peoples mouths” about things they didn’t say. You and TSJC lectured me about it a while ago…now we see a blatant act above so I responded proving a point.

            I’m sorry if I offended anyone. I was trying to make a point that I didn’t say those things. I’m a little worried, sure. But when people are saying this team is perfectly fine with no DH, Melky in LF and barely any depth in anything…I am allowed to think otherwise. I’m sorry.

            • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

              You’re just… Getting too close to taking things too far. I didn’t say you’re annoying, I said the territory this conversation is headed to is going to be annoying for everyone (i.e. the fighting and name-calling that’ll ensue if this conversation keeps getting worse). I also said “I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong,” and I meant that… Regardless of who’s right, just take a step back and don’t get into a pissing match with this guy.

              • Rose

                I agree. And I apologize for almost instigating/continuing an unnecessary issue.

                I appreciate your approach as well and will try to compensate in the future.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

                  Group hug.

                  /again’d

        • DP

          Still pretty mad about Matsui going to the Angels for $6.5M!!!

          Unbelievable…

          OR we can do the stupid thing which will probably happen…and sign Jason Bay to a horrible contract because we missed out on whatever Holliday plan Cashman may have had.

          Who the hell knows what he’s doing.

          After today the confidence level took a hit. I really have no idea what Cashman is doing as of right now…

          Everybody we talked about is gone…except for some of the high risk pitchers…that’s about it.

          What looked like a “sit-back” year for the Red Sox…is starting to look like it just reversed on us haha.

          basically mushing our plans into the dirt.

          Looks like Cashman overplayed his hand here. Held on to his cards a little too long and may end up paying the piper this year.

          I got bored, but I’d say these “Rose highlights” speak for themselves.

          • Rose

            The sad this is that this probably took you at least a few minutes of your time…and you got absolutely nothing accomplished.

            Sorry.

            • DP

              A lot less time than you’ve spent freaking out the past hour or so because some reporter claims the Cardinals might have made an offer to a guy we probably weren’t interested in in the first place.

              • Rose

                I mentioned that Cashman might have overplayed his hand…and a few other things…then other people claim that our team is perfectly fine the way it is now. I disagreed. You jumped in pretending it was a wrestling ring and went all out on everything I wrote.

                That’s basically what happened in a nutshell. It had absolutely nothing to do with the Cardinals and Matt Holliday. It had to do with a lot of different things…as well as you instigating the situation from time to time never really knowing what was going on.

                • DP

                  I don’t think anyone said the team is “perfectly fine” right now. My main point is that it’s pretty dumb to start judging Cashman and saying “what the hell is he doing?” just because some guys decided to sign with other teams. We weren’t/aren’t going to sign EVERY good player on the market. I think Cashman deserves a little leeway considering they won the World Series a month ago. As an example you saying “now they’ll sign Bay” like as a way of saying Cashman will now do the dumbest thing possible makes no sense whatsoever, and it is obvious to everyone here that you are getting really over-anxious just because the Red Sox got a little better, and we went an entire day without signing anyone.

                • DP

                  Maybe I didn’t say exactly what you said at any point, and maybe I was exaggerating a bit, but that’s your general sentiment: Other teams got better, which means we got worse, and therefore Brian Cashman is a bad GM having a terrible offseason.

                • Rose

                  But that’s not what I meant by any means. If you read my statements carefully…my main point wasn’t that other teams were making moves and we weren’t. My point was that every GOOD option we haev been talking about for weeks and weeks are dwindling away. TWO of which were signed on the same day (Matsui and Cameron), Bay looks like he’s signing with the Mets, and Holliday seems to be hopefully signing with the Cardinals (if that report and dollar amount was true)…thus giving Damon all the leverage in the world unless we are planning to sign Marlon Byrd or something instead.

                  Cameron for 2 YR/$15.5M and Matsui for 1 YR/$6.5M >>>>>>>>>>>> Just Damon for 3 YR/$25+M

                  I just don’t get it. You would assume that any team would go to the Yankees before solidifying a deal…he shakes them off…I’m just extremely curious what the hell this guy is waiting for or thinking about. There aren’t that many options out there…certainly right now.

                  THAT is what I was nervous/confused/upset about. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with other teams signing players while we weren’t. It was MUCH more than that.

  • dch

    Guys-I loved Matsui and love Damon. But we are not talking about replacing what they did last year we are talking about what they are going to do this upcoming year. The odds are very long against those two replicating what they did last year. Their numbers would probably be decreasing. Neither can field or throw. Granderson and rotating DH makes up for most if not more of their offense, defense is much better, cost lower,more flexibility,etc

  • MR. OCTOBER

    Cashmans next move should be to call Kenny Williams of the ChiSox and ask about Carlos Quentin. Chisox are said to covet Brett Gardner. They also need a lefty hitting DH that provides some defense. Yanks may be able to provide that with Juan Miranda who can play first and dh Konerko if needed. Add a pitching prospect to the mix perhaps get back a prospect as well. Yanks have Quentin Granderson Swisher. Melky and Hoffman if he sticks. Melky can be the fourth outfielder to provide D, allow rest, or even spell Granderson if the lefty woes continue. Hoffman (if he sticks) can provide speed off the bench and additional outfield d. Quentin provides solid defense and can hit when healthy. Hes young only 27 and cheap at the present time.

    • Charlie

      grammar would help. not a horrible idea on quentin, although he’s had a lot of health problems so there’s got to be some sort of red flag there

      • aj

        Why would they trade Quentin? And why would they trade him, who almost had an MVP season in 2008 to acquire Gardner and Miranda?

        • Charlie

          i didn’t say they would want to trade quentin. but then again, kenny williams is an idiot. quentin had an off year in 2009 just like swish did in 2008 so thats probably what mr october is thinking.

          • MR. OCTOBER

            KW has been known to sell low on guys after an off year. Swisher. Quentin is cheap but is arb eligible from hear on out. He already turned down an extension so hes going to be looking for some money. He has had some injury issues and had a down year.

        • Crazy Eyes Killa

          everybody wants gardner and miranda

          • TheLastClown

            Gardner & Miranda = IPK & Melky?

    • Rose

      The White Sox said no to Carl Crawford for Carlos Quentin. They will have absolutely no part of a package with Gardner as the main piece lol

      • aj

        I’m sure someone on here will come up with some stats that show that Gardner could approximate Crawford’s production.

        • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

          Totally. Like that time I compared DeJesus and Crawford and you spoke up to criticize the idea so in response I laid out some numbers for you but you never bothered to respond and a few of us had a little chuckle at your expense?

          That was awesome. Chump.

          • Evil Empire

            Holy fucking shit, I didn’t know they were so comparable.

            Fuck. I am truly surprised. The numbers don’t lie.

          • Mattchu12

            I still like the idea of trading Gardner and a pitching prospect to Kansas City for David DeJesus, playing him in left field, and signing Johnny Damon.

            SS – Jeter
            DH – Damon (Left Field against lefties)
            1B – Teix
            3B – Rodriguez
            CF – Granderson
            C – Posada
            2B – Cano
            RF – Swisher
            LF – DeJesus (Center Field against lefties)

            And then a left mashing bench player to be the DH, or possibly play the outfield over Swisher with Swish as the DH. Or maybe just Melky in CF with Damon staying as the DH and DeJesus staying in LF. Either way, I love DeJesus’ defense in left field and his bat would prove to be quite the feisty nine-man. Not to mention he’d get a boost from Yankee Stadium and from batting in front of Derek Jeter.

            • Mattchu12

              The left mashing bench player as the DH and the following ideas, are all for when we face left handed pitching if you didn’t get that. Cuz you know, Grandy isn’t really the man against left handed pitching…

          • Rose

            In all fairness…speed and baserunning is a pretty major upgrade…especially when you already have those credentials.

            Look at Gardner, WITHOUT speed he’s a carwash attendant over on Jerome Ave.

            It makes a difference, and I know you stated that…but I just think it’s a little more important than what was made out to be.

            • http://threequarters.cementhorizon.com/archives/kool%20aid%20man.bmp The Honorable Congressman Mondesi

              I not only stipulated that there’s a difference in speed, I also stipulated that the difference in speed is “a big deal.” I hear what you’re saying, but, in all fairness, I made the exact point you’re making.

      • MR. OCTOBER

        They said no to Carl Crawford because of his money situation. Brett Gardner is a poor mans Carl Crawford right now. Posednik is also on their radar but Chicago doesnt want to go two years. Gardner is a guy under control for quite a few more years with a lot of upside. A lot of people feel Miranda could be the DH for the Yanks in 10 why not the Sox then.

        • Charlie

          brett gardner is not a poor mans carl crawford. he can’t hit. like at all, really. crawford’s a good BA/OBP guy and he has decent power.

          • Charlie

            also gardner does not have a lot of upside

        • Crazy Eyes Killa

          that poor man would have to be sooooooo poor, like only wearing dirt poor

        • http://phabfour.blogspot.com/ Double-J

          Brett Gardner is a poor mans Carl Crawford right now.

          So what you’re saying is Brett Gardner is Tom Joad, and Carl Crawford is Rockefeller, amirite?

    • Evil Empire

      This would be the ultimate test of Kenny Williams’ stupidity.

    • Drew

      I see no situation short of trading Jesus in which the Sox would part with Quentin.

      • Charlie

        you dont trade jesus. jesus trades you

    • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

      Cashman: So Kenny, I was thinking you guys get Brett Gardner, Jim Abbott, that girl from Indian who had like six legs, Pat Venditte, a juicy NYY steak, aaaaaaaaand Dellin Betances.

      Williams: I’m stupid, not retarded.

      • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

        *India

        • Evil Empire

          AHHHHHHAHAHAHHAA

          I remember the India spiderchild.

          Fucking A.

    • Pittsburgh Pinstripes

      I like this a lot!

      • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

        I’m selling the Brooklyn Bridge. Interested?

  • aj

    EGAD man! MLBTR says that The CARDS are going to offer Holliday atleast 8 years at 16M per. Are they insane? And they say the Yankees may give the Cards trouble for him. HA! 8 years, no chance.

  • Jobamania

    8 years? that is just fuckin INSANE.

  • Jobamania

    trading lee to get to halladay leaves philly in the same exact position in last year.

    they got to the world series and 1 guy can only pitch so much. and you cant pitch better than how cliff lee pitched….

    makes no fucking sense lol

    • Drew

      Well, it does make sense. They want an Ace/Cy Young Candidate for the next 4 years. They had no security with Lee because Lee will enter FA.

      • Jobamania

        while mortgaging the future even more.

        lee is over a year younger, cant extend him?

        • Drew

          They tried to extend Lee and they were convinced that he was entering FA. I can’t give you a link but I did read that.

        • http://www.teamnerdrage.com dr mrs the yankee

          Lee is looking for his payday, Halladay said he’d settle for less.

      • aj

        Halladay will enter FA next year too. They have to sign him long-term, they could have done that with Lee without losing the prospects.

        • Jobamania

          they already agreed to 3 years 60mm extension.

          so they pay 15.75 this year and 20 million for the next 3.

          im sure u can extend lee for that.

          • Hey ZZ

            nope. Lee is set on testing FA

          • BklynJT

            Lee was looking for CC type money.

    • Alan

      They’re getting Halladay because he’s more inclined to sign a deal than Lee. Lee wants FA type money, whereas reports have shown that Halladay does not have the same requirements. Finances win the day.

  • aj

    Just for fun, MLBTR’s predictions for the free agency on November 9, 2009. Besides Scutaro and Pettitte, a little off.

    1. Matt Holliday – Mets. The Mets could grab headlines by signing Holliday to a six or seven-year deal for more than $100MM.

    2. John Lackey – Yankees. Last winter’s strategy of signing the best two starters and the best hitter available contributed to the Yankees’ World Series title. With rotation question marks after C.C. Sabathia and A.J. Burnett, it makes sense that the Yanks will pursue the best available starter in Lackey.

    3. Jason Bay – Red Sox. It’s been rumored the Red Sox are willing to offer four years and $60MM to Bay. That seems to be a fair opening bid, given his defensive struggles.

    4. Chone Figgins – Angels. The Angels have internal options at third base, but he’d be hard to let go after a career-high .395 OBP and excellent defense at the hot corner.

    5. Randy Wolf – Mets. The Mets regrettably chose Oliver Perez over Wolf a year ago. As the best available starter aside from Lackey, Wolf is primed to get a three-year deal worth more than $30MM.

    6. Andy Pettitte – Yankees. With all the good vibes surrounding Pettitte’s work this year, it’s hard to see him anywhere else. The Yankees might have to guarantee more than $5.5MM this time though.

    7. Jose Valverde – Phillies. One way to shore up a shaky bullpen: sign the best closer available. Few teams are seeking closers, and even fewer have money, so the Phillies should be able to get a relative bargain.

    8. Marco Scutaro – Red Sox. It’s difficult to place Scutaro, because not many teams with shortstop vacacies will be willing to pay the three years and $18MM+ he’ll likely demand. The Sox would be getting the best available shortstop here, but they could instead choose Jed Lowrie and/or Alex Gonzalez.

    9. Adrian Beltre – Twins. The Twins made a large upgrade at shortstop by acquiring J.J. Hardy. Beltre would give them fantastic left-side infield defense and another possible 20 home run bat. The Twins had interest in trading for Beltre a year ago, though the Scott Boras client added them to his no-trade clause.

    10. Rich Harden – Red Sox. A one-year deal with a $7MM base salary would be difficult for Harden to resist. His injuries are maddening, but he leads free agent starters with a 10.9 K/9.

    11. Mike Cameron – Padres. The Padres are tight on cash, but bringing back Cameron to play center field makes sense on a one-year deal worth $7MM or so.

    • Drew

      heh. Mo bless em for trying. It’s definitely not an easy proposition and opens you up to tons of criticism.

    • Bo

      You make it sound like anyone at mlb tr is an expert. They are great at what they do there. Compiling links. But you dont hit them up for analysis.

  • Jobamania

    5/100
    8/128
    which do you take?

    • Evil Empire

      8/128

      Pretty hard to leave $28M on the table.

      • Drew

        Especially considering that in yr 6 you are 36.

        • Hey ZZ

          depends how the deal is structured. If 8 for 128 is seriously backloaded, 5 for 100 may end up being more in the long run.

    • Jobamania

      i think i would take the 5 year deal
      hit the market again at age 35.

      • Evil Empire

        And what if you get hurt in your first year? Or fall off a cliff in your last? Or whatever?

        Get the most money that you can get, as soon as you can get it. Period.

        • Jobamania

          oh god forbid you only make 100 million dollars!!!!

          • Evil Empire

            Why wouldn’t you want to make sure you made an extra $28M though?

            I mean, I’m assuming you’re just trying to get at the core point that the Yankees should offer a shorter length but higher AAV deal to Holliday. It usually doesn’t work that way, unless Holliday felt like taking a discount to put on the pinstripes.

            • Jobamania

              it leaves your options open
              age 35 is hardly washed up, especially with someone as athletic as holliday.

              what if pujols walks? what if the cardinals lose year after year? hitting the market once more before retirement may be great for a player.

              • Evil Empire

                You can try to spin it all you want but Scott Boras would say “take the 8/128″ and at the end of the day, that’s the opinion that matters.

        • ROBTEN

          This.

          Could an age 36 Holliday really expect to make significantly more than $9.3 million per year for more than three years to make up for the missing $28 million? How much more? Is it worth the risk when you might “fall off a cliff” in that time, as Evil Empire points out? How many 35-36 year old outfielders are getting offered that much money on a new contract that runs for more than three years?

          It is really, really unlikely that any player turns down $28 million dollars when there is virtually no chance of recouping that money.

  • pete

    Carlos Delgado

  • MR. OCTOBER

    8/128 is nuts for Holliday. I thought the Yankees might have been waiting him out and talk when the price went down but 8/128 is insane to turn down. Especially from St L who is usually competitive and a nice place to live. Wow!

    • Bo

      maybe he doesnt want to play/live in stl. It is a perk of free agency. u can choose where u want to play and live

  • Hey ZZ

    Someone else asked this question, but I thought it was interesting so I will ask it here:

    Can you name another team’s 4-5 starters that you would take over Joba and Hughes?

    • Charlie

      just thinking about this year or long term? either way though its tough

      • Hey ZZ

        this year

    • Drew

      Me personally? Nah.

      If I was a Sox fan I’d argue Laptop-Larcenist and Dice-BB.

      • Hey ZZ

        So the Yankees have a 1-3 that just won a WS and the best 4-5 starters in the league. Fuck, we are screwed.

        • Jobamania

          last year everyone stayed healthy.

          • Hey ZZ

            Then you must have missed when our #2 starter was non-existent

            • Charlie

              huh?

              • Hey ZZ

                I was referring to Wang when he said everyone stayed healthy

                • Charlie

                  gotcha

            • Jobamania

              whos our fallback this year? alfredo? woooooohooooooooo

              • Drew

                Nova, Gaudin, Ace, Mitre, Kontos, Wang/Sheets/Dusch, etc..

                • Jobamania

                  which is why we need sheets in the first place ;)

  • Charlie

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....oston.html

    I didn’t realize this, but apparently they agreed. 2 years/ 15.5 mil

    • Jobamania

      old news bro
      sucks, i know

      • Charlie

        yea but he’s pretty old for a 2 year deal. personally if we’re talking 2 years i’d rather damon over cameron cause he’s got the better bat and can move to DH after the first year

        • Jobamania

          if only damon would agree at a 7.5mm salary, but no, hes delusional

          plus cameron still plays some of the best CF in the game while damon plays some of the worst LF

  • Charlie

    lets say the eight year st louis offer is bullshit. the yankees come in with a 5/110 offer. do you want it? i’d go for that. even though its another long term committment, the lineup would just be flat out insane if you stick holliday in there

    • Bob Stone

      I like it.

    • Evil Empire

      $110M? Probably too much, I’d be afraid that would limit the team from other acquisitions in the future.

      5/90 and I’d do it if I was Cashman for sure though.

    • Jobamania

      this is where i was going with the whole 5/100 or 8/128 thing.

      again this is just a pipe dream

    • Drew

      Nah. I’d rather keep that money so we can make a move for some of; Mauer, V-Mart, Berkman, Lee’s (D and C), C-Pena, CC, Dunn, Manny and Mags.

      • Charlie

        is this partially or completely a joke? manny? mags? derek lee? wtf

        • Jobamania

          lol seriously
          wtf

        • Drew

          No joke.
          I’m not sure where the disconnect is.
          Are you just assuming Manny, Mags, and Lee will have bad 2010’s?
          I figure they all may be open to DHing for us.

          Lee with an OPS+ of 145 in 09.
          Manram 155.
          Mags 109.

          • Jobamania

            why in the world would you want manny on this team?

            and mags? he has no power.

            • Evil Empire

              I know exactly why he’d want ManRam on this team, and I’m with him.

              Honestly, if we’re willing to consider Jim Thome as a DH for his age 39 season, why the hell wouldn’t we consider one of the top 5 greatest right handed hitters of all time as a DH for his age 39 (or is it 38?) season? For fuck’s sake, he OPS+’d 155 last year.

              • Jobamania

                his drama is just not worth it dude. can you imagine if we had signed him like so many of us drooled for? just no.

                • Drew

                  Well yeah, it would have sucked to have the PED storm but Jeter, Damon, Teix, Al, Manny makes that storm subside.

                • Evil Empire

                  Yeah, I can imagine what would’ve happened. Besides missing out on 50 games, which did suck, he would’ve OPS+ around 155.

                  The drama you speak of is the media driven imaginary narrative that us, as fans, are subject to because we take what we can get. He’d be totally fine in the Yankee clubhouse. He’s buds with A-Rods and Girardi seems to be getting better and better at relating to any and all players.

                  He’d be whacky and awesome and mashtastic for a 1 year rental with a team option or something. Not sure if he could get more than that in 2011.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

                  Manny Ramirez: good at baseball

            • Drew

              I’d want Manny because he is a very good hitter.

              As for Mags, he had a down year. It was his lowest slugging% since 1998. After a horrid start he managed to rebound. It’s very possible he comes back to have a good 2010.

              C’mon man, I named 10 people that may be able to contribute to the 2011 Yankees.

          • Evil Empire

            Maggs I’d be very lukewarm about, but ask me again after 2010.

            Everyone else I’d be totally down for on short-ish term deals. El Caballo as a DH hitting #5 would be fucking sweet, I think he’ll continue to mash for several more years.

            If we could sign Crawford for something like 4/52 (the Damon deal), that would be great. He’d be a useful piece.

            • Drew

              Eh C Lee was Cliff not Carlos. I love Carlos but I don’t think he’s a FA.

              • Evil Empire

                ooooooooooh shit. You’re right. I’m too tired to look at Cot’s right now and fact check.

                That said, I’m down for Cliff Lee as well. You forgot Beckett, by the way. He’s another guy very much worth considering.

  • YankeeGaGa

    RF- Melky/Swisher
    CF- Granderson
    LF- Bay/Melky
    DH- Swisher/Bay
    Thoughts?

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

      Jason Bay: DO NOT WANT

      • Rose

        Oh no please no Bay

    • Bob Stone

      No Bay please.

  • Jobamania

    well fuck this..

    The Yankees have reached out to Jason Bay’s representatives, a source tells Michael Silverman of the Boston Herald. While the Mets, Angels, and Mariners are said to be the frontrunners for his services, the article says that the Bombers are “lurking in the weeds.”

    Silverman stresses that the Yanks are not believed to have made an offer at this point and their level of interest is currently unclear.

    • Jobamania

      we should take damons 3/39 offer send it to jason bay’s reps

      id be cool with that tbh

      it would also burnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn boras/caveman

    • Evil Empire

      Ehhhhhhh … that’d be very much dependent on the size of the contract. Fuck. Now I gotta think about this shit seriously and evaluate whether I want Jason Bay on the Yankees.

      His bat is fucking legit, no question about that. His defense isn’t as bad as the UZR would have you believe (LF in Fenway tends to make UZR unhappy because its heavily based on range, or at least that’s what I’ve heard), but its certainly still below average.

      Sigh. Boston’s 4/60 sounds about right I guess.

      • Bo

        How is replacing Bay with Cameron good for the Sox?

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

          Because Bay’s wicked overrated and Cameron is wicked underrated.

          Cameron’s outproduced Bay each of the last three years.

  • Kyle

    Have a little faith in C-Money guys. This is ridiculous and exactly the kind of talk that I regularly bash SUX fans for.

    This was not a good deal for Boston. Cashman played early and forced the SUX into a predicament where they were pressured externally to make a significant move.

    Lackey was a slightly above average pitcher in a weak west. He is going to get hit HARD in the east and will continue to for the duration of this contract. Think the SUX can sign Beckett for a lesser amount? HA! I think Beckett walks after this contract and you are looking at Lackey as their “ace.”

    Give it a rest and don’t get caught up in the hooplah. This is the first season that Cashman had complete control of the franchise and he brought us a title. He knows what he is doing and isn’t about to jeopardize the current team or our future to play tit for tat in the newspaper headlines.

    CHILLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!

    • Jobamania

      they already have lester as their ace.

      • Bo

        How is adding a frontline starter not a good deal for them?

        Now losing Bay and replacing him with a subpar player like Cameron hurts them.

  • Tom Zig

    The Red Sox are clearly taking the run prevention route. Yes their 1-3 is better than the Yanks’ 1-3, yes their defense is better than the Yanks’ defense, good for them. What fun would it be if the Sox absolutely sucked next year? Winning the AL East next year will be that much sweeter.

    • morrison

      Umm, the red sox #1-3 pitchers are better than our, really?

      1)CC>>> Lester
      2)Becket> Burnett
      3)Andy = Lackey
      I don’t think my opinion is that off what most fair critic would judge these two rotations at the moment. Plus, CC is the best pitcher of the bunch by far at the moment.

      • JMK THE OVERSHARE’s Milton Bradley Fat Park Factor

        Let’s be fair here. Lackey is a better pitcher than Andy. Beckett is much more consistent than AJ. It’s not a big gap or anything, but they have the edge there.

        Seriously.

        • jonathan c.

          Lackey and Pettitte are closer than you think.

        • hakeem “single celled sentient”

          seriously,

          them having the edge is what’s worrying. No Matsui and still no Damon. I know I’m not the sharpest pencil but I’m seriously concerned.

          • Mike HC

            You should be concerned. Boston has a ton of talent, and depending on injuries and which team gets hot at the right time, things can go any which way. That is the beauty of sports.

            But, on paper, the Yanks should still be better. With adding Granderson, we only need to add one more hitter to equal our lineup of next year, and still have the possibility of adding two hitters, which would make the lineup better.

            We are also clearly not done with pitching, whether it be bullpen, starting, or both, so our rotation should also be just as strong if not stronger than last year.

            It will just come down to who is having better years. Will Jeter and Jorge ever truly decline? Will Swisher repeat his year? ARod stay healthy? Cano a repeat year?

            • Mike HC

              Oh yea, we already lost Kate Hudson, an irreplaceable piece of last years WS team. That could do irreparable damage. Poor old ARod will never be able to find another, you know, with his shitty looks and empty bank account and all.

              • hakeem “single celled sentient”

                you see, all i needed was a pep talk.

          • Rose

            You’re not alone.

        • Zack

          Beckett and AJ have basically the same exact career numbers.

          And Beckett has had 1 ace-like season in Boston, wouldnt call him consistant

    • Chris

      I’m not certain that their defense is superior. They were basically at the bottom of the pack in 2009 while the Yankees were at the top. As it stands now the Red Sox and Yankees both significantly improved their left field defense. Of course, there are a lot of moves left to be made (Red Sox 3B, Yankees LF, etc) so we’ll have to reevaluate in the spring.

      • Bo

        LF defense in Fenway park??

        You dont need gold glovers with the monster there. you need a big bat ala Manny.

        Cameron aint that.

  • Pingback: What are two great ETF’s to invest in for 3 or more years for good returns? | ETF Trading Course

  • larryf

    The binder guys, the binder.

  • Mike HC

    Boston was not going to stand still. It seems as if them and Tampa might still be our toughest competition in the AL, especially considering the Angels lost figgens and Lackey.

    Boston, as usual, will be there in the end. You had to expect them to get better. The Lackey deal, Scutaro (on a smaller scale) and they have V-Mart for the entire year, which will make a difference. They are also making a concerted effort to improve their weak D from last year. They should be better this year.

    • hakeem “single celled sentient”

      Not making knee jerk reactions actually may work out in our favor long term. Looking at the quality of available free agents next year with the added bonus of not having to lose prospects if this current line up can be as good as last year then we might actually be dominant over the early part of this decade.

      • Mike HC

        I agree with that. While Boston will probably shorten the gap this year, the Yanks have to also be concerned with 4-5 years down the line. When all of our aging core are truly on their last legs as 39 and 40 year olds, the team has to keep some flexibility.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

        Not making knee jerk reactions actually may work out in our favor long term. Looking at the quality of available free agents next year with the added bonus of not having to lose prospects if this current line up can be as good as last year then we might actually be dominant over the early part of this decade.

        I have nothing to add, I just wanted to repeat that louder to make sure everyone heard it.

  • Mac

    Obviously Lackey was a good move for the Sox. They did not over pay for him and next off season they are going to have to find a catcher and a big time hitter to replace Ortiz. So this gives them a lot of insurance if Beckett demands to much money.

    The Yanks spent a lot of money last year and it paid off with a championship. They really just need to find a few 1 year patches to solidify this seasons team.

    With the people left on the market I would sign Delgado and Sheets.

    Delgado would basically be the full time lefty DH for 2010 that would protect Alex and wouldn’t need to be signed to more than a year.

    Sheets can be offered a 1 year with an option incentive laid out contract. If he pitches well, they can pick up his option and he can potentially replace Pettitte. If he doesn’t then they have plenty of money between him and Andy to go after one of the many high end starters (Webb, Lee, Beckett, Cain?).

  • dkidd

    cc (29)
    phil (23)
    joba (24)
    tex (29)
    granderson (28)
    cano (27)
    swisher (29)

    even if we don’t sign damon, even if jeter/posada/a-rod fall off a cliff, i like our chances for the next five years

    • Doug

      except cc can opt out after 2011, swisher and cano’s guaranteed $ ends after 2011, and granderson’s in 2012.

      • dkidd

        you’re right

        even if we don’t sign damon, even if jeter/posada/a-rod fall off a cliff, i like our chances for the next TWO years

      • Zack

        because they suddenly cant resign cano, swisher and granderson?
        and cant sign any SP to replace cc?

        • Doug

          did i say that

  • JobaWockeeZ

    Ugh pass on Bay.

  • Keanu Reeves

    From Victor Rojas’ Twitter (http://twitter.com/VictorRojas29/status/6693764325):

    2 things this morning…i still can’t fathom anyone paying Johnny Damon $9mm+/yr & the rumored 8-yr “offer” to Matt Holliday is no bueno

    Not sure what he means by “no bueno”.

    • Matt Flynn

      no bueno=no good

      • Keanu Reeves

        I mean, I know what it means literally lol.

        What I was getting at is that I’m not sure if he means the report about the offer was bogus or if he thinks it was a crappy offer.

  • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

    The Yankees still do have plenty of options left for the LF/DH situation. As discussed yesterday, the Holliday option looks a little bit better today, Damon’s still on the table, and despite the loss of Matsui, there are other short-term DH options on the table in the persons of Delgado, Thome, and others.

    • Doug

      forgive me but how does holliday’s 5/$90M+ contract demands look better today? unless you mean that his demands will likely decrease since he has fewer potential landing spots

      • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

        Well, there’s that, and the fact that the Yankees don’t have anyone knocking on the door of the OF anymore, along with the fact that future options are looking crappy as well, that IMO, make Holliday look a little bit better today than he did before. They don’t need him, and I don’t think he’ll be their #1 target for left field, but the option is a lot better now that there’s no more Austin Jackson and that the Yankees’ leverage w/Damon has faded a bit.

        See this comment for further discussion: http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ent-718480

        • Doug

          I hear ya, Matt (and thanks for the link). Personally, would still prefer a non-Holliday option. Just hate the idea of another $100M+ contract. I want the Yanks to have plenty of financial flexibility for next year’s FA class and beyond.

          • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

            I definitely don’t think the Yankees would go $100MM for Holliday, and they shouldn’t. 5/90 is definitely the absolute highest they should go. If that 8/128 deal from the Cards is real and the Yankees come in and offer more AAV, Holliday’s gotta decide what’s more important: money or time?

            I’ve said all along, Matt Holliday would be a good fit for the Yankees, but it’s the price that’s prohibitive. The talent is there for sure, it’s just a matter of cost/what else is out there. As the Yankees options start to thin out, and the price drops a bit (that StL offer is the only official one, right?), Holliday could be more of an option.

            Next year’s FA class doesn’t offer much, either. Say the Yankees pass on Holliday and target Crawford. He’ll want a “long” term deal that would likely expire the same year Holliday’s would if he signed this off-season. I’d say Holliday is a better bet to keep producing at this level than Crawford is.

            • Doug

              was thinking more of the pitching side of things in next year’s class. would be nice to have $ for lee, beckett, et al.

              as for LF, not sure what other options i like. would probably still try and ink damon for 2/20 max.

              • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

                True. I think the possibility of Lee hitting FA is much greater now than it was this time yesterday.

    • Bo

      You really think they’d touch Delgado or Thome?

      Esp with Miranda just waiting in the wings??

      • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

        Yes, I do, because I don’t think they have much faith in Juan Miranda.

  • dkidd

    i’d actually be fine with signing delgado and calling it an offseason. melky as the starting lf doesn’t scare me

    • Keanu Reeves

      I’m fine with your scenario, but I’d like to see them add some starting pitching depth. Whether it be Sheets, Duchscherer, Escobar etc.

      Also, while Delgado’s fine, IMO I’d rather have Thome than Delgado.

      • dkidd

        thome would also work on a 1 yr deal

        obviously sheets has crazy upside, but i want phil and joba to get a full year in the rotation

        of the pitchers, i’d prefer escobar (more likely than sheets to take a 6th starter role, less likely than dusch to crap his pants)

        • Keanu Reeves

          I’m all for Joba and Hughes in the rotation and you’re right, Sheet isn’t likely to settle for a 6th starter role. But if you can get a healthy Sheets (obviously a question mark) at a low price you have to pull the trigger.

          • dkidd

            he’s healthy now, but i don’t trust that “healthy-sheets-now” equals “healthy-sheets-in-august

            it’s time to turn phil and joba loose!

            • Keanu Reeves

              Yeah, good point.

              However, adding him to a rotation that had the depth of both Joba and Hughes could help ensure the health of him and Pettitte by using the 6th guy to give Sheets and Andy an extra day of rest here and there.

              Just sayin’.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      I think we all agree that Melky in LF is fine so long as there’s a real DH. That’s probably what’s going to happen.

  • Rose

    Here’s a question. How do the Phillies end up getting MORE than the Blue Jays on this deal?

    The Phillies get Roy Halladay and $6MM from the Jays. They also get Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies and Juan Ramirez from the M’s.
    The Mariners get Cliff Lee from the Phils and they could be getting more.
    The Blue Jays get pitcher Kyle Drabek, outfielder Michael Taylor and (probably) catcher Travis D’Arnaud from the Phils.

    I’m assuming the Blue Jays prospects are much better than the ones the Phillies are getting? But it still seems like they’re getting shafted. Phillies seem to be making out like bandits. Roy Halladay, $6M, AND a handful of prospects in return. Not bad.

    • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

      The $6MM the Phillies are getting probably helps them more than the prospects. That covers the difference in salary between Halladay and Lee. Still, I find it odd that the Phillies gave up Lee. If they really wanted Halladay, they probably could’ve worked out a deal with Toronto alone. A 1-2-3 off Halladay-Lee-Hamels would’ve been nearly untouchable.

      • Bo

        Terrible move not adding Halladay to Lee and giving yourself the best rotation in the game.

        Esp if you are trading Drabek and Taylor anyway.

        And Lee was signed to a great contract for the 1 yr.

        • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

          Yeah, Lee’s contract this year was incredible.

        • Keanu Reeves

          The problem wasn’t Lee’s contract for this year. It was the fact that the Phils weren’t going to be able to sign him to an extension.

          Ya, they’ve given up a lot, but they’re going to get Halladay signed to an extension an ensure they have an ace for a few years to come.

          • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

            I wonder how the Halladay money/extension will affect Cole Hamels’ future (deal’s over after ’11).

            • Zack

              Well if he’s 2009 Coles going forward and not 2008 Coles then you have to think they’ll let him walk or trade him

              • http://bronxbaseballdaily.com Matt ACTY/BBD

                I’d be willing to be a lot that Hamels rebounds in a big way in 2010. Pretty much everything of his last year was as good as (or better than) ’08 except he had some bad luck on BABIP.

            • Keanu Reeves

              That’s an interesting point. I think a lot of that also depends on how he bounces back this year.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

            The problem wasn’t Lee’s contract for this year. It was the fact that the Phils weren’t going to be able to sign him to an extension.

            Exactly, and they wanted to move Lee now while they could get three solid prospects for him rather than let him walk and only get two.

            Granted, it’s a gamble since you pass on the opportunity to have a dynamite team for this one year, but looking big picture, they made it to Game 6 of the WS with a Lee-Hamels tandem last year. A Halladay-Hamels tandem may be enough.

      • Rose

        I don’t think they could afford the two of them along with everybody else. After all, they needed to afford Polanco at 3B lol

    • Drew

      I looked last night and don’t have time now to look it up again but two of the prospects the Phils are getting were in A ball last year. One of which doesn’t have all too impressive numbers as a pitcher.

    • dkidd

      unless i’m mistaken, it’s 2 separate trades (no players/$$$ exchanged by toronto and seattle)

      blue jays get a decent haul from the phils considering everyone knew they had to trade doc before spring training

      phils give up cliff lee and don’t get give any of seattle’s top 3

      • dkidd

        don’t GET any of seattle’s top 3

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

      Here’s a question. How do the Phillies end up getting MORE than the Blue Jays on this deal?

      They didn’t.

      I’m assuming the Blue Jays prospects are much better than the ones the Phillies are getting?

      They are.

      Drabek, Taylor, d’Arnaud >>>>>>>>>>>>> Aumont, Gilles, Ramirez

      Drabek is much rawer and further away than Joba/Phil, but the ceiling is similar. Ditto Taylor v. Montero. d’Arnaud is comparable to Romine.

      The package they gave the Jays for Roy Halladay is like a slightly less experienced version of Joba/Montero/Romine.

  • Rose

    I’m kind of putting the pieces together (albeit, doesn’t mean it’s correct…but looks valid)…

    Seems Cashman overplayed his hand…passed on Matsui, Cameron, etc. so he could try to pull off a Holliday deal. Cardinals weren’t going to let it happen…so now Cashman’s plan took a hit…his cheaper alternatives (other than Damon…who might not be so cheap anymore) are mostly signed…so now he’s (hopefully only) doing his due diligence on Jason Bay.

    I really hope he doesn’t get him…

    • Nady Nation

      Ever consider the fact that Matsui and Cameron might not have been a part of Cashman’s plan? Just because you love Matsui and feel he should’ve been signed does not mean Cashman believed that was the best move for the club going forward. Maybe he didn’t “miss the boat,” but rather “had other plans.” You really do need to chill out. The team just won the World Series, remember? Seems like the man in charge would have an idea of what he’s doing.

      • Rose

        I’m not upset. I’m writing what I THINK may have happened. This doesn’t mean that I’m angry or suicidal.

        Maybe you guys need to calm down. It’s just an idea of what happened. That’s all.

        • Nady Nation

          “Rose says:

          December 15th, 2009 at 12:17 am
          Still pretty mad about Matsui going to the Angels for $6.5M!!!

          Unbelievable…”

          Of course, how could that be construed as being upset? Clearly it’s the rest of us who need to chill out, you’re taking a very level-headed approach to all this.

          • Rose

            Which would you presume sounded more angry or “legitimately” upset…

            “Still pretty mad about Matsui going to the Angels for $6.5M!!!”

            OR

            “Still pretty mad about Matsui going to the Angels for $6.5M”

            Perhaps in a comic book the first one would be the answer? Every other scenario it is not.

            While I am sad to see him go…I have never been violently upset or angry or out of control because of it. YOU made all of that up in your head.

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

              They both sound angry and upset.

              Exclamation marks are fairly worthless pieces of punctuation, which is why academic and news writing eschews them. The words “pretty mad” in BOTH sentences indicate that you’re upset. The lack of exclamation marks does not make the second sentence “not upset”.

              • Rose

                It all depends on the assumption the other peson is making. The perception of the post I guess. I personally don’t think when somebody throws 3 exclamation points after something (especially in the age of AIM, Facebook, BLOGS, etc.) does anything but show that you’re playfully upset about something.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

                  It all depends on the assumption the other peson is making.

                  No, it doesn’t.

                  You have repeatedly asked for people to not interpret your words the way they are written and to give you excessive leeway. That’s not a fair request to make of people. It’s selfish and counterproductive.

                  You are what you say. Your words are who you are. If you don’t mean to say things with intensity, do not pick intense words. Your punctuation will NEVER save you.

                • Rose

                  According to your perception and assumption. You choose to disregard certain punctuation therefore see things written as black or white apparently. And that’s fine. the majority of other people I talk to on a computer see things entirely different. That’s all.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

                  According to your perception and assumption.

                  No. According to your words.

                  All we’re doing is reading your words. Nothing more.

    • Zack

      How many times do you feel you need to write this?
      7 posts in the same thread saying Cash overplayed his hand when the offseason isnt even over yet? When its December 15??? When the Yankees are still the best team in the game?

      • Rose

        Zack,

        Nice of you to join the conversation. For somebody who has contributed nothing to the table…it’s at least good to see that you’re still breathing and focus more on posts that annoy you rather than putting in any opinion of your own on the main topic.

        • Keanu Reeves

          The fact that he hasn’t contributed to conversations thus far does not change the fact that you have stated your opinion very repetitively throughout this thread.

          I’m not saying you don’t have the right to your opinion, but don’t call out others for disagreeing with it. Especially if your reason is that they haven’t contributed to the conversation enough.

          • Rose

            If he can comment randomly on things he doesn’t understand (this post)…why can’t I call out the fact that he’s contributed nothing…yet complains about others who do frequently?

            Again, this post wasn’t meant to be angry…it was an IDEA. MY IDEA. I’m not spoon feeding it to you…if you disagree or whatever then ignore it. It’s that simple.

            • Keanu Reeves

              I’m not commenting on what he’s doing. I’m commenting on what you’re doing. If he wrote a similar comment to another poster, I would have the same opinion.

              And I really don’t think anyone has claimed your post was “angry”. I think you’re simply running into people who are tired of the negative outlook you have.

              You have every right to your own opinion, but you can’t expect that you won’t get criticized for it. Especially if you post it frequently.

        • Zack

          I’ve already stated what I think should be done numerous times on this site, Melky in LF and sign one of the many DHs available, doesnt really matter who cause they’re all DH and all have negatives somewhere in their game.

          What have you contributed except the same post over and over again saying Cash overplayed his hand because he didnt do what you wanted him to do?

          • Rose

            What have you contributed except the same post over and over again saying Cash overplayed his hand because he didnt do what you wanted him to do?

            Lot’s of stuff. Check it out.

            • Zack

              Yeah, I saw what you contributed. Cash overplayed his hand, no confidence in Cash, Cash is just sitting back, Cash’s plan is in the dirt, Cash overplayed his hand. And you commented on Doc, Quentin and Bay, congratulations that you can comment on boards at 2am.

              You’re taking pieces of the offseason and trying to say that YOU know Cashman’s plan and that your opninion is more valuable than anyone here.

              So let me try: Cash moved one top prospect this offseason, that must mean he’s looking to move Jesus, Joba AND Phil this offseason too.
              See the dangers in fans trying to connect dots to think they know a GM’s plan?

    • Keanu Reeves

      Seems Cashman overplayed his hand…passed on Matsui, Cameron, etc.

      I don’t see how he overplayed anything. If he wanted Matsui, he would have matched the Angels offer; he obviously knows something we don’t. And yeah, I was a proponent of Cameron, but if the Sox want to give him two years to replace Bay’s production, fine by me.

      So now Cashman’s plan (re: Holliday) took a hit

      How do you know that was his plan? To me, it seems more likely that Holliday wasn’t in the plans because of the contract demands and the fact that they seem totally comfortable with Melky in left.

      • Rose

        How do you know that was his plan?

        I’m kind of putting the pieces together (albeit, doesn’t mean it’s correct…but looks valid)

        • Keanu Reeves

          Fair enough.

        • Nady Nation

          Totally does not look valid at all. Your opinion alone does not count as validity.

          • Rose

            It does to me. A lot more than your opinion does.

            • Nady Nation

              Well no one else on this board considers your opinion to be validation of anything other than irrational rambling. But by all means, continuing losing your mind over not signing a 35 year old DH with chronic knee problems to a one year deal.

              • Rose

                But by all means, continuing losing your mind over not signing a 35 year old DH with chronic knee problems to a one year deal.

                Ironic how you can create non-existent scenarios and assume I’m doing things I’m not…but you’ll be the first person in line sticking up for somebody because he’s never contributed…but my comment on how he’s never contributed “isn’t fair and shouldn’t be made”. LOL

                • Nady Nation

                  “Ironic how you can create non-existent scenarios and assume I’m doing things I’m not”

                  http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ent-719416

                  Apparently I’m imagining you relaying your anger about Matsui’s departure earlier in this very thread.

    • A.D.

      We get it, you’re going back to your Axl days and are flipping out over relatively minor issues.

      Maybe Damon gained some bargaining power, but in reality there aren’t other teams out there (that we’ve seen) dying to sign him, that’s really what matters, more than the Yankees other options.

      • Rose

        I don’t think I was “flipping out” at all. You’re assuming I was flipping out. I was just attempting to put pieces together…very simply. I’m very cordial and happy right now. Maybe it’s YOU who needs to chill.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

      I’m kind of putting the pieces together (albeit, doesn’t mean it’s correct…but looks valid)…

      Seems Cashman overplayed his hand…passed on Matsui, Cameron, etc. so he could try to pull off a Holliday deal. Cardinals weren’t going to let it happen…so now Cashman’s plan took a hit…his cheaper alternatives (other than Damon…who might not be so cheap anymore) are mostly signed…so now he’s (hopefully only) doing his due diligence on Jason Bay.

      I’m going to suggest an alternate course of action.

      A) Stop trying to “put the pieces together” in an effort to read between the lines and figure out what’s going on behind the scenes or anticipate what’s going to happen next.

      You do it a lot, and, to be frank, you do not do it particularly well. You tend to do it to constantly determine that the team’s strategy is wrong and that the future result will be bad. I’m not speaking only of this offseason hot stove, I’m speaking of pretty much everything you’ve ever commented on, ever. I’m not trying to be snarky, I’m trying to be genuine and forthright. You jump to a lot of conclusions, and they’re all negative. Sure, you’re right on occasion, but you’re not right enough to make this endeavor a worthwhile one for anyone, least of all yourself.

      B) Just be patient, sit back, and watch what happens. Don’t try to read people’s minds. Just watch and react to what happened, not what you think WILL happen in the future.

      Spoken not as an insult, but as a friend who’s been around the block with you once or twice.

      • Rose

        I just don’t understand why I can’t post what I think is happening on a message board.

        It’s just as arbitrary as saying “I don’t want Jason Bay on our team” after news has come out that Cashman has looked into him. Of course maybe with a little more detail.

        I’m not trying to instigate everything but this “you can’t say that…you can only say this” routine on here is outrageous. You should be able to speak your opinion regardless. And the funny part was…I wasn’t even insinuating that it was the end of the world or anything…I was just simply putting the pieces together.

        I appreciate your advice and I know we’ve been around the block before and this isn’t a “you’re wrong I’m right” kind of response to it. I just don’t understand why opinions are such a soft subject while assumptions of the opinions always take the upper hand.

        Oh well. I’ll try to take it down a notch regardless.

        • Nady Nation

          If you post the same opinion 80 times in one thread while coming off as anxious and angry, be prepared to have your opinions disagreed with.

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada

            Vehemently.

            It’s not the opinion, Rose. It’s the repetition and the intensity. You say it once, maybe people let it slide. You say it over and over again, people get tired of it and want to pick a fight with you, and that leads to more and more retrenchments.

            And, again, speaking frankly, you’ve already burned a shitload of your collateral and your grace periods.

            • Rose

              And, again, speaking frankly, you’ve already burned a shitload of your collateral and your grace periods.

              I’m not looking for grade periods. I’ve seen several people on here be quite cordial with me up until they found out I used to be Axl and then immediately turn on a dime and make it a point to disagree with me at times. Why would I care about getting these people to like me? They’re just as…if not more irrational than they think I am.

              As for the repetition, with the new news of looking into Jason Bay…it now looked like more likely of a scenario. But whatever. It’s over.

        • Zack

          No one said you’re not allowed to have your opinion, you’re missing the point.
          I dont care if you want to sign Lackey, Bay, trade for Halladay and Lee, that’s your opinion. But the fact that everytime I scrolled down thisthread I have to see a new Rose post pops up about how Cash screwed up and his plan is in the dirt then I’m going to comment on it because we get your damn point.

  • Ansky

    Well now that Hit-deki and his pornos are gone…do the Yanks give Jack Cust a look for DH?

    • Zack

      He’s not plan A, but he’s better than Miranda.
      His splits are strange though, he actually hits better at Oakland Coliseum than on the road, always thought Oakland was a pitcher’s park.
      Home OPS: .846, .896, 1.047
      Road OPS: .708, .800, .779

  • Mark D

    Does anybody else think that Matsui wanted a full time job? I am sure he was getting the hint that the DH spot would be used 3 or so times a week to rest players and a man with his pride may have wanted to go everyday. Its not like the Angels are ot fighting for a playoff spot and he has a pretty much everyday role with them.

    Sometimes the player makes a move based on something other then cash

  • HC

    Fallback Yankee DH: Platoon Miranda (RHP) and Gomes (LHP). Also, what happened to Garritt Atkins? The guy feasts on LHP so maybe worth a flier.
    LF Fallback: DeRosa (if he’s cheap). Could be a good platoon against LHP too.

    That leaves us a chance to get Ben Sheets on a ST deal and still have a lot of financial flexibility for next year’s FA class. Sign Mauer, move Posada to DH (and maybe 30-40 games at C)…

  • JohnC

    White Sox just got Juan Pierre from Dodgers. NOW WHERE WAS CASHMAN ON THAT ONE????????? WHEN IS HE GONNA WAKE UP?? HE IS KILLING THIS TEAM!!!!!!!!!

  • yanksfan4life52
  • yanksfan4life52

    I’m assuming most guys bitching about the Yankees not doing this or that all the time are guys who have only been fans since the 90’s,the spoiled boys.Yeah Cashman is killing the team.HR JUST WON A WORLD SERIES MORON.