Dec
04
Yanks will bid on Halladay, cut payroll
ByJon Heyman tweets that the Yankees have decided that they will in fact bid on Roy Halladay. Toronto, he says, wants some combination of Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, Jesus Montero, and Austin Jackson. Meanwhile, Buster Olney says the Yanks are going to trim payroll; he’s just not sure by how much. Frankly, none of this is anything we didn’t already know, but now it’s semi-official.
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If the Yanks trade Montero I will go and become a Nats fan.
+1
Rebecca,
WHY?
Montero has never played for the Yankees…I know everyone is excited and whatever, but don’t overvalue prospects.
I think this is a lot of fluff anyways…I just don’t see the Yanks seriously pursuing this guy…but making it seem like they intend to might frighten another team into overpaying for him.
In moments of supreme fandom, it cannot be expected for one to act rationally. This is one of those said moments.
Fair enough.
If its consoling, remember that our farm is a heck of a lot better than it once was. We have depth.
Cutting a guy loose here and there to make the Yankees better is sometimes necessary.
I can see people having a hard time seeing a guy like Hughes or Joba setting sail, but when you have a guy like Halladay available, you have to at least consider it.
I still say they don’t get him, but they have to see if they can get him at a price lower than the one mentioned above…which they probably can if they wait out the Toronto GM.
Every team needs irrational fans. “Bid” doesn’t necearily mean the Yankees are going to put together an overwhelming package that Toronto would readily accept.
Say the Yankees offer Montero straight up for Halladay and Toronto does it – have fun being a Nats fan while the Yankees are favorites for a repeat. The chances that Montero has a career as good as Halladay’s are slim. Is he projectable? Sure, but overvaluing prospects is why you’re not running a major league baseball team and Brian Cashman is.
I personally think we should only trade for halladay if we DONT have to give up JOBA, HUGHES, MONTERO.
Now, people may disagree but here are my reasons:
Joba: May not succeed at starting but lets face it, if Mariano went down by injury tomorrow, who’s the ONE guy the Yankees would stitch in the closer role? JOBA. PERIOD.
Hughes: Looked dominating as a setup man, but ultimately doesn’t have that raging bull relief mantality like Joba and seems like he can be more paced, and have filthy control with 4 pitchers to succeed at starting pitching. (No hitter after 5 starts into 6th inning b4 blowing a hammy) and 8 shutout innings this year).
Montero: If we trade him, we are banking on the Twins NOT resigning Mauer because after Mauer, what free agent catcher would you want to play in New York? Montero is our future behind the plate for like 4 or 5 solid seasons before he becomes a DH but still. 40+ HR potential does NOT get traded
Austin Jackson: On the other hand, i WOULD trade Austin Jackson heres why. 1: Yes, he is superb defensively BUT we are banking on him developing this magical bat that hasnt developed yet. He strikes out alot, doenst walk enough and doesnt particularly hit for power (YET); ALL BIG IFS to improve upon. Plus, we have La Leche y Brett The Jet. I love melky because he comes up so big and actually is a decent power threat of 15+ hrs in the new yankee stadium.
Cool you do that. I will enjoy the ’10 world series. Have fun watching some great pitching and all around solid baseball being played by those Nats. Their hightlight this year was Randy Johnson beating them for his 300th win.
Can Montero catch 80+ games at AAA before we anoint him Johnny Bench?
Can Jeter play 80 games at shortstop before we anoint him Honus Wagner?
Sincerely,
Lanny from 1995
HONUS WAGNER lmao
Dude, what is your problem?
Oh… NATS… for a second there I thought you typed NETS. No one is that crazy.
Montero = Dealbreaker
/Liz Lemon’d
THERE YOU ARE, YOU STUPID CRACKER!
/tracy morgan’d
Kenneth: I know how you like this cornbread, Mr. Jordan.
Tracy: LIKE it? I love this cornbread so much, I wanna take it back behind the middle school and get it pregnant.
” . . . my gold record, from that novelty party song . . .”
I like trimming payroll.
Let me just say this, however: if they trade Phil Hughes, I will cry.
Why do you or anyone here care if they trim payroll? You think they’ll knock down tix prices? You think your beer will cost less?
No. The money just goes into the owners pockets.
Yeah I do not get this either, I want the best baseball team I can get. I like to watch Roy pitch, even when he is on a team in our division. So if he was on the Yankees I would appreciate it that much more.
Here’s why:
Trimming payroll now means more payroll flexibility to add to payroll significantly later.
We shouldn’t always just spend money because we have it. We should spend money to get great players. If there aren’t great players available to spend the money on, the smart thing is to trim payroll and wait patiently to spring back into the market when it’s better.
And this team has ever had any issues adding players because of salary??
I guess a lot of teams have 5 mil a yr starters in AAA.
Not adding long term payroll because you dont like the players is a whole different than altogether. But that doesnt mean you sign Joe Schmoe to play LF for the min.
What TSJC said. Trimming payroll opens up salary for much stronger free agent crops in future winters.
There is clearly a cap at what the Yankees spend and looking at the next 3 years FA it could be a bonanza. Not wasting money now on players who dont deserve top dollar makes good business and baseball sense.
Indeed.
Give ‘em Joba and Ajax and lets call it a day.
No. I’d go Ajax+, with none of those +’s being Joba, Phil, or The Jesus.
and i would respectfully disagree.
and I will respectfully POOP ALL OVER YOUR CRAZY IDEAS!!!!!!!!
BAAAAAAAAH, LOUD NOISES!!!!!
No Joba, no Hughes, no Montero. Patience.
It’s going to cost too much in prospects and money for Halladay. There’s a decent chance that next year, Halladay could be had for just money. I think they could wait it out and still get him.
the too much in prospects is subjective i guess.
i don’t look at Joba as an untouchable in a Doc Halladay deal. I just don’t. I think as long as he is here we’re going to have the bullpen vs starter questions. He will never win that battle here in NY. And I think it could really hinder his ability to be a big time starting pitcher on the major league level.
Thats what i think. Doesn’t make it right or wrong. but thats what i think.
Joba and Jackson is a very nice deal for them and us.
Esp if they feel that Hughes is the better pitcher and Montero will be able to catch full time.
Can Montero catch 80 games at AAA before we anoint him Mike Stanley?
I think as long as he is here we’re going to have the bullpen vs starter questions. He will never win that battle here in NY.
Says who? The MSM may, but the Yankees don’t and that’s what matters. They’re keeping him as a starter. That’s it.
I think as long as he is here we’re going to have the bullpen vs starter questions. He will never win that battle here in NY. And I think it could really hinder his ability to be a big time starting pitcher on the major league level
(thinks for a second)
Nope, I don’t give a shit. Joba will be fine.
My counteroffer:
Let’s trade away all the idiots who say dumb shit like “Joba should be in the bullpen because of his mentality”. Send them all to Cleveland for the rights to Jose Veras back, then DFA Veras.
Or, let’s just have them all killed. Or, let’s just continue to ignore them, which is what the Yankees braintrust does.
I firmly refuse to allow the incessant whining of idiots to force our hand and make us trade away good players just because the unwashed masses are too dumb to think before they speak.
So when he eventually ends up in the bullpen what happens then? do these people come back from the dead after being killed??? Because from his games hes clearly a reliever. No matter how much you want him to be a starter. No matter how many times you watch that game he started in Fenway vs Beckett. Some pitchers are better in the pen. Its a fact of the game. Dont really see the issue with a guy being a better reliever than starter.
Lanny, if it is so obvious that Joba is a reliever then by your own logic Toronto doesn’t make that deal.
Toronto trades for Joba because he projects as a front-end starter.
No GM trades Roy Halladay for a bullpen guy.
Lanny, if it is so obvious that Joba is a reliever then by your own logic Toronto doesn’t make that deal.
Toronto trades for Joba because he projects as a front-end starter.
No GM trades Roy Halladay for a bullpen guy.
B-I-N-G-O.
You can’t say it’s obvious Joba belongs in the bullpen then say he should be traded for Halladay, Felix, Johnson, etc.
I wonder, if Chamberlain has a wildly successful career as a starter, will all the people who said he should be in the ‘pen admit they were wrong?
I wonder, if Chamberlain has a wildly successful career as a starter, will all the people who said he should be in the ‘pen admit they were wrong?
this made me laugh because we all know how absurd it truly is
Because from his games hes clearly a reliever.
Lanny, does it bother you that all the people other than you that think this have been proven to be imbecilic morons on numerous issues, and all the people who disagree with you are some of the brightest and sharpest baseball minds on the planet?
Just wondering.
Some pitchers are better in the pen. Its a fact of the game.
Sure, you could say that. You’d also be right if you replaced “some” with “95% of”. Probably even a higher number would work there.
Dont really see the issue with a guy being a better reliever than starter.
It’s not an issue, it’s a basic fact. The part you’re missing is that a pitcher of Joba’s talent level is more valuable pitching 200 IP as a starter then 70 IP as a reliever.
Really? Why? 200 IP is 30 starts, and in joba’s case that is about 12-14 wins MAX. Joba pitching 70 meaniningful innings means that he will be involved in games where he may record and take part in the victories of 30-55 individual games, rather than pitching “MEDIOCRE PLUS” in 10 of them.
or, he could blow the hold. But you conveniently left that part out. If he was in the bullpen pitching like he was, he would undoubtedly upset some of you
In what i said above…did i say joba should be be a reliever?
Is that what i said?
No, it’s not what you said.
What you said was, lots of people here WANT him to be a reliever, so we should trade him before those idiots affect him mentally and hurt his performance.
That’s the inmates leading the asylum. I won’t agree to that in principle.
You didn’t, but more importantly, no one important on the Yankees has said he’s a reliever. Their plan’s to keep him as a starter and they have yet to say they’ll deviate from that in ’10.
i personally think it’s a mistake to bid on halladay. obviously there’s a strong chance toronto doesn’t accept the deal, but just idea of losing the organization’s closest position prospects and/or young, cost-controlled pitchers with upside in the same deal for a guy (entering his decline years) who they could have for only one season rubs me the wrong way. i’d rather the team retain those pieces in an attempt to get younger rather than send them off elsewhere.
the yankees do not need roy halladay. plain and simple.
the yankees do not need roy halladay. plain and simple.
Plain and simple that’s not true. We were uncannily healthy and got ridiculous contributions from guys in their late thirties last year. That does not happen often nor should it be counted on happening again.
No, it shouldn’t be counted on, but trading for a 33 year old who’s pitched a ton of innings the last few years (yes, Halladay’s a freak and might not break down) isn’t good insurance for other guys who are older.
They said the same thing about CC…the Yankees won’t need 240 innings out of Halladay in the regular season. They’ll need 200-220.
The CC and Halladay situations are not analogous. If Halladay was an FA right now, I’d want the Yankees to be all over him like deliciousness on a slice of pizza.
But the inning nonsense is.
Theres a big difference in pitching for a team that is rebuilding and for a contender with depth that can provide its pitchers with rest toward the end of the season for the title push like we did with CC.
Everyone was moaning and complaining last year about how many innings CC had on his arm the past two years in Cleveland and Milwaukee, but that did not need to be the case for NYY. That’s why they stockpile arms and sign.trade for guys like Mitre and Gaudin.
Sabathia was 28 coming into the ’09 season. Halladay will be 32. There’s a difference.
Plain and simple that’s not true. We were uncannily healthy and got ridiculous contributions from guys in their late thirties last year. That does not happen often nor should it be counted on happening again.
Pat, everything you just said is true.
Doesn’t mean that we “NEED” Halladay, though. Needs and wants are far from the same thing. In order for us to “need” Halladay, we would have to have a team that’s not good enough to win without Roy Halladay.
Our team IS good enough to win without Roy Halladay. He’d make it easier, yes. Far easier. But he’s not a necessity. He’s just not.
I mean the fact that the Yankees are the current world champions, pretty much shows they don’t need Roy Halladay.
We were uncannily healthy and got ridiculous contributions from guys in their late thirties last year. That does not happen often nor should it be counted on happening again
so you’d be willing to sacrifice the future of this team for a guy who had an up and down season and struggled with a pulled groin when we can just give him money when/if he hits free agency rather than give the jays our prospects?
Up and down season? 239ip 1.12 whip and a 155 era+, all in the AL East. Sounds like a hell of a lot more ups than downs if you ask me. Anyway, I love our prospects, I really do. I was the one sparring with that Scouting the Sally jokester because he dared besmirch the name of my boy Manny Banuelos. That being said there is a chance Ajax never develops that power stroke and his 2009 line really was artificially propped up by the high babip. There’s a chance Hughes’ changeup never becomes serviceable and there’s a chance Joba’s shoulder or biceps tendonitis turns out to be severe. There are no “chances” with Halladay. Barring some sort of catastrophic injury he’s pretty much a lock to be better than Joba or Hughes over the next 3 or 4 years. Having him atop the rotation with CC is almost a guaranteed WS appearance in that time span. With many more top notch prospects down the road I would be willing to give up an AJax and Hughes/Joba for the security of having Halladay in our rotation.
Also factoring into my decision is my belief that Halladay will age well as he gets older. At 6’6″ 220 he has a great pitchers frame and his windup is very simple and stress free. Not only does he pound the zone with 2 mid 90′s fastballs but he gets insane movement as well. Couple the movement with a very good changeup and dirty curve and you have a guy who should be able to be very effective pitching with diminished velocity into his late 30′s. JMHO
It’s not a mistake to bid on Halladay. It’s a mistake to buy on Halladay if the price is wrong. Bidding just drives up what everyone else would have to pay.
fair enough – from what i’ve been trying to get across that’s what i meant (bid vs. buy) but clearly didn’t think it out enough before i hit Add comment.
youe comments are why i pefer mikes idea of pursuing josh johnson who is 25 yrs old and almost as dominant as doc h.
Trade top youngsters for Halladay — and cut payroll too? Sounds like the worst of all possible worlds. Let’s hope one of these at least is wrong.
Heyman said we’d “bid” on Halladay. He didn’t say what the bid would look like.
Methinks the bid will be a nice lowball offer. We’ll throw our AJax and nothing else of substance package out, and see if Anthopolous panics and takes it. When he doesn’t, and someone else trumps the bid, and Anthopolous comes back to us and says “Throw in one of the Big Three, or I have to send Halladay to Unnamed Destination X”, we tell him “Goodnight and good luck.”
JMHO.
if by big three you mean joba huhes montero then yes.
if by big three you mean joba hughes ipk i say IPK as fast and loud as I can and then try to get the paperwork signed as fast as hu7manly possible
Yes, Joba/Hughes/Montero.
Sorry for the redundant catchphrase ambiguity.
Its gonna be real hard to cut payroll AND get Halladay. I don’t believe a word of any of this.
They said they wanted to cut it last year and the only reason it dropped was because the hid money in a signing bonus for CC.
185 is not even an option.
Ya beat me to it.
With the extension that Halladay is going to demand, there is no way the Yanks can trade for him AND cut payroll. It’s just not possible. And that doesn’t even take into account the LF and DH needs.
I believe the Yanks are just posturing– just to keep teams thinking that they are involved and drive up the price.
With the extension that Halladay is going to demand, there is no way the Yanks can trade for him AND cut payroll. It’s just not possible.
Important point of clarification: Those are two separate comments from two separate writers.
Heyman said we’re going to try and get Halladay.
Olney said we’re going to try and trim payroll.
Together, they may in fact be mutually exclusive, but they weren’t linked together by one person, they were two separate statements by different people. Heyman may anticipate us INCREASING payroll, and Olney may anticipate us NOT adding Halladay.
Olney is just telling us what someone ie Cashman told him. They are going to try to trim payroll. What GM this time of yr doesnt say that??
Exactly!! What GM doesn’t do that?? I’ll tell you: None of them!! They all do it !! Why can’t people see that??
I don’t think the Yanks are going to get Halladay, but that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t help the team
He would help any team.
Yes he would.
Seriously, CC and Halladay as your one two punch with AJ and Pettitte in the 3 and 4 slots?
That’s lights out.
Yep.
I also think CC/AJ/Andy/Joba/Phil could be lights out. Trading for Halladay then having to extend him is a very, very large cost.
True, which is why I don’t believe the Yankees or any team will have to give up as much as some people project right now. BUT, they will have to give up Joba or Hughes, no question.
And they shouldn’t be interested in doing so.
Shouldn’t be interested in what, trading Hughes or Joba or overpaying or both?
Maybe I’m a minority here, but if I can give up a package centered around one young pitcher and get a workhorse ace like Halladay, I do it, especially if it doesn’t mean giving up a Jackson or Montero.
Joba did pretty good in the first half…he fell apart the second half. Hughes failed as a starter in the first part of the season and was lights out in the 8th inning. It goes back to that Joba in the Pen argument…you have to TRY and develop these guys as starters, otherwise they are just relievers and I’m sorry, but relievers (with the expection of ONE MAN=Rivera) are never as valuable as front line starters.
If one of those guys works out well down the road and stays with teh Yankees and the other goes elsewhere and does well, then I am fine by that if I am getting a guy like Halladay.
But then this is the whole problem right? Cashman has to forecast which one will be better and how good that one projects at this point and with their current resume to date.
Your guess is as good as mine. I like them both…I think that if Joba sticks around, he could actually shake out as a starter, maybe 3 hole. Otherwise, he could be the heir apparent to Mariano. Phil, if he develops a deeper repertoire could also shake out as a starter but I am not really convinced that he is closer material like Joba potentially could be.
Opinions are like_______, everyone has one
Shouldn’t be interested in what, trading Hughes or Joba or overpaying or both?
Maybe I’m a minority here, but if I can give up a package centered around one young pitcher and get a workhorse ace like Halladay, I do it, especially if it doesn’t mean giving up a Jackson or Montero
They shouldn’t be trading either one. I’d also give up Austin Jackson 100 times before giving up either Hughes, Chamberlain, or Montero.
Joba did pretty good in the first half…he fell apart the second half. Hughes failed as a starter in the first part of the season and was lights out in the 8th inning. It goes back to that Joba in the Pen argument…you have to TRY and develop these guys as starters, otherwise they are just relievers and I’m sorry, but relievers (with the expection of ONE MAN=Rivera) are never as valuable as front line starters.
So we agree that Hughes and Chamberlain should be starters? They both should. Both have been relatively inconsistent in the rotation because they’re both under 25, had relatively little time in the minors, and are learning to pitch on the ML level.
Your guess is as good as mine. I like them both…I think that if Joba sticks around, he could actually shake out as a starter, maybe 3 hole. Otherwise, he could be the heir apparent to Mariano. Phil, if he develops a deeper repertoire could also shake out as a starter but I am not really convinced that he is closer material like Joba potentially could be.
I’m willing to be that neither one of them ever becomes a closer and they’re both mid-rotation guys at worst. Both of them have the potential to be A1 quality pitchers and they should be given every chance to do so.
I’d like to hope they are both pegged to be starters because if either of them isn’t, we’re kinda wasting our time trying to come up with reasons why they SHOULDN’T be traded to the Jays.
On the subject of not trading either, it ain’t gonna happen for Halladay. The Jays will, and SHOULD, require that an ML ready young pitcher be included.
If not, why not just take the draft picks?
Seriously, CC and Halladay as your one two punch with AJ and Pettitte in the 3 and 4 slots?
That’s lights out.
Damn straight it’s lights out.
So is banging hot cocktail waitresses, because they’re hot. However, looked at strategically, it may not be the best long-term solution to bang said hot cocktail waitress until the moment and opportunity is right, i.e., until you’re sure you can bang her and nobody will find out.
If not done carefully and deliberately, it may backfire on you and you may regret it.
Sincerely,
Tiger Woods
Tiger…your wisdom is divine.
I’ll remember this
Having the best 1-2 punch since Randy Johnson / Curt Schilling would be nice.
Starting pitching wins titles.
If they think Joba isnt of the top class they have to get involved with this.
Or, if they think they can keep Joba regardless of how he turns out and still get Halladay, they have to NOT get involved with this.
Cuts both ways.
What makes you sure Phil is top of the class?
And which team wouldn’t he help, exactly? That’s like saying I don’t think I’m going to land a better paying job than the one I currently have, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t help me.
I don’t ever believe a word Heyman says… but if the Yankees do pursue Halladay (and get him) I will be pissed if it is for Montero, Hughes, Joba, etc. I have no desire for him at all, he could rot in Boston for all I care, if we trade for anyone it will be for King Felix.
Yeah lets trade for someone whose not even on the trading block.
I’m sure you and everyone else will be crying and moaning when Halladay is 21-7 with a 3 ERA.
You always miss the point, no one says he wouldnt be great for 2010 and 2011. But paying him 20m+ when he’s 36, 37, and 38 is not a good investment, espcially when you already have the best team in baseball.
And especially when he costs not just money but prospects too.
That too. But I know Lanny doesnt like prospects unless they’re 35 and proven so wasnt even going to start with it.
Lanny loves prospects, as long as they aren’t on the Yankees. Or were drafted by the Yankees, and not signed. I bet he has a Casey Kelly poster in his room, replacing the Lars Anderson one from last year.
Forgot about that. Garret Cole is a great prospect, if Yanks signed him he would be overrated.
everyone is on the block if you offer enough. plus seattle has said, including at last yrs trade deadline, that they would listen.
Halladay would be a real nice short term get. He would make the Yankees the best team in MLB for as long as he is on the team over the next 3 seasons.
Olney also says “hes not sure” how much they are going to cut by. That means nothing.
The Yankees cut payroll last season and signed the biggest 3 FA’s out there.
Its all a bunch of negotiating/propaganda ploys that they are using twitter/the espn crew for. I think it’s genius.
very true, technically the Yankees could sign Holliday AND cut payroll
I think there are stories that say they’re cutting payroll every single yr. Makes a ton of sense to take all that revenue and not upgrade the team. Its negotiating. Its what every team says this time of yr. You dont give agents/players any slack.
Why people buy it I have no clue.
I would hate for them to think that they don’t have to fill Matsui’s 2009 production somehow only for them to find out midseason they need to trade for a bat.
I’m fine with getting Halladay, as long at its not for Toronto’s current asking price.
uh..Vernon Wells come on down?
I’m joking, I think? lol
The “I think lol” scares me.
You DON’T want Vernon Wells here. You don’t.
lol good point…
no way in hell I want Wells in a Yankee uniform.
That’s more like it, Mr. Wayne.
I keep trying to come up with a scenario where it would be acceptable to take on Wells with Halladay, and I can’t do it. Even Halladay and Wells for nothing wouldn’t be worth it, unless Halladay agrees to a 4 year extension for the league minimum.
I don’t like trading for Halladay when Felix is a FA next year. It’s like Johan all over again.
On the other hand that rotation would be so sick. I don’t know, losing Hughes and/or Montero would really really kill me though. Whatever happens happens I guess.
Basically Montero is ticketed for a Yankee career as a DH. As great as he projects with the bat (and even that is simply a projection without 100 % certainty) he will eventually either be a defensive liability at catcher/outfield or he’ll be clogging the DH spot when older Yanks need to get parked there. If you can keep Hughes/Joba then trading Montero plus lesser prospects for Halladay is the move to do in order to give the Yanks their best shot at repeating as champs over the next 2-3 year period.
Except all of the scouts who have actually, you know, seen him with their eyes play baseball say he’s improved tremendously behind the dish to the point where he is actually a legitimate option at catcher.
Moot.
Whether he’s a catcher or a DH, he’s an amazing hitting savant. I want him here, regardless of where he plays.
Not worth giving him up for a guy who A) doesn’t fill a need, just a want and B) will be on the market in a year in all likelihood anyway.
+2
A) doesn’t fill a need, just a want
Anything that improves the team is a need. Improving one starting pitcher spot from 3 WAR to 7 WAR is just as important as improving at LF from 0 WAR to 4 WAR.
If you are telling me that Montero is the Yankee catcher for next 15 years or so and the pitchers will want to pitch to him then sure he is an untouchable. I have actually seen him play and have also read and heard various scouting reports about him and none that I have seen project him to be more than an adequate catcher at best with a need to move him out from catcher not too far down the road (if that is what you mean by “legitimate” then I guess we are looking at the same info with differing glass half-filled or half-empty reactions).
An adequate catcher with the offensive potential of Jesus Montero is anywhere from Jorge Posada to Mike Piazza. That’s something untouchable.
Just to give you a specific recent source take a look at the current USA Today Baseball Insider edition which projects the 2012 Yankee line-up (as well as the 2012 lineup for all other teams) and has Montero projected as the DH in 2012 with a scouting report that he’ll be an average catcher at best. You can go ahead and belittle the source but I’m sure we’d all like to be the guy skilled enough and credible enough to have qualified for the job of writing that article!
If Montero is even an average catcher, he should be catching. If Montero can’t catch and has to play DH, that’s fine. Instead of a Mike Piazza-position-based ceiling, you get a Frank Thomas-position-based-ceiling. That’s perfectly fine with me.
Go back and read the Project Prospect article a few posts down. It called Montero a possible “once in a generation talent” with the bat. You don’t trade that for a 33 year old, no matter who it is. If you wanna talk trading Montero for Felix or Josh Johnson, yeah, I’ll listen, but not for Halladay. I’d likely trade Joba or Hughes before trading Montero. For Halladay, I’d likely trade neither of the three.
bonestock,
Felix I think is a FA after 2011…and he’ll NEVER become a FA unless the Mariners are the dumbest organization in baseball.
They have the money to get something done with Felix if they want to and apparently they do.
Mad Prince…there’s a reply button. It makes all conversations eminently readable.
Also, if Felix wants to hit FA, which, at 25, as one of the premier starters in the AL, is very possible, there’s nothing the M’s can do about it.
If I’m Felix, I’m making the M’s pay market value if I’m going to stay, especially if they’re still not in contention by then. I’m going to do this by actually hitting the FA market & letting myself & my agent see what offers are out there.
The guy’s the young stud, why wouldn’t he want the biggest SP contract given yet?
Felix has a say in the matter, assuming they don’t kidnap his loved ones. Can Seattle pay as much as us or the Red Sox or whoever? No, they can’t.
I would like to have Halladay, but for 2 of the 4 guys listed, i’ll pass.
Sign me up for King Felix. Talent, Age and Money is right. Halladay has just the talent.
trade for felix when he is in the last yr of his deal and seattle realizes he has $$ in hios eyes and wont sign an extension, then he will cost less (but still astronomically high) because you remove the team control aspect. as of now it would take joba hughes montero and ajax to get felix. ansd i aint down with that.
and as for halladay, 5 yrs of cost controlled hughes and joba to me is better than 4-5 yrs of astronomically highly paid halladay at age 33-37(38)
Well, all 4 for King Felix, I doubt that, Joba and Hughes along with two lesser prospects, yes. The Yankees wouldn’t even consider all four for anyone. If Mariners say no, than it’s no until they’re ready to trade him.
I’ll keep everyone instead of going after Halladay if it costs two out of the four listed.
As for the cutting payroll part, couldn’t the yankees resign both Damon and Matsui and still cut payroll? I still think this is likely.
Just to reiterate:
A) CC and AJ are under contract.
B) Andy Pettitte can be had on a one year deal.
C) Joba and Phil are solid young starters, maturing. Both have already shown the ability to be dominant starting pitchers. Both are legit ace prospects, which is why they’re desirable to others.
and:
D) The next two offseasons, there are, by my count, 8 legit “Game 1 of a playoff series” ACES who are scheduled to hit the market:
2010: Halladay, Lee, Beckett, Webb
2011: Felix, Cain, Verlander, Josh Johnson
All 8 won’t hit the market. At least 2 or 3 will.
Be patient.
Correctamundo. We have 5 starters, if we do need one like we did this past year, we can use guys like Gaudin and Wang when healthy if we do sign him.
You would think after winning the World Series we’d just let Cashman and others do what they do when they do it.
Then we would have nothing to talk about. Cash needs to hear from us. Isn’t he already contributing? Don’t forget Jose Molina to clinch the Halladeal….Gotta put a smiley after that
In fairness, Beckett is more hype than he is performance. He’s good, but he ain’t that good. And Webb is coming off serious surgery. Lee will be 32 at FA in 2010. Just sayin’.
Felix (!), Cain, Verlander and JJ all look very tasty though.
Obviously an html fail. Emphasis was on “that.”
I think it was just the hand of Beckett’s gritty spirit reaching out through the interwebs to mess up your flippant dismissal of “the greatest post-season pitcher of all time”! (© ESPN)
Casey Kelly is the greatest post-season pitcher of all time. You should know better.
Casey Kelly is ALSO the greatest post-season HITTER of all time, too.
I know Lee will be 32, but if we don’t have to give up prospects and there are no major red flags this year I’d still love to have him.
Yanks have to bid on Halladay if only to keep Boston from stealing him…
No.
He might just mean putting in the bid to drive up the price for the Sox, not actually make the deal to keep him out of Boston.
I might have misinterpreted what he said. I thought his line was closer toward “we need to get him, we can’t let the Sox steal him from us!” not “let’s drive up the price so the Sox at least mortgage part of their farm to get him.”
If it’s the latter, I sincerely apologize; that’s all smart thinking. If it’s the former, well…no.
Its the latter… need to keep the sox honest…
I really expected a lot more blood to be spilled in this thread. Obvious point: Just because they’ll “bid” on Roy, doesn’t mean anything. They’ll probably throw in a lowball offer and maybe up it to something like AJAX, Z-Mac and a high-upside guy still in the low A’s (Viz, Jairo, ManBan, Delllin?) or at most, Romine. Cash knows the Jays are in a poor position to bargain and really, Halladay is not even close to a need. It would be a decadent, lustful indulgence. He’s not just going to offer up 72 virgins, Hughes and Montero for a year of 33-year old Halladay.
So, here’s the hypothetical: Ajax, Z-Mac, Romine, Jairo for Halladay (who would never re-sign anyway). Three guys that all have good future value, but are unlikely to be superstars, but good pieces and a high-upside pitcher with injury concerns. If you’re the Jays, you take that, right?
For the record, I don’t want Halladay unless we trade the baseball equivalent of Brian Scalabrine for him. Not for one year, his age (and the age of the rest of the rotation) with that salary. Big picture.
I just like throwing out stupid hypotheticals.
Please vote for Brian Scalabrine for the NBA All-Star game. If he gets 250,000 votes, he’s getting a spray tan. That will be a legendary OMFG moment.
I’d be bummed at first if we had to give up Jober and Ajax. But then, I’d be happy. After all, Joba can come back in 4 yrs.
[...] Jon Heyman (via RAB), we learn that the Yankees have decided that they will bid on Roy [...]
The best part of Heyman’s post?
“The red sox have the best chance, tho.”
Keep hummin on Theo, Heyman, you’re doing a GREAT JOB!
I heard Theo might flip Scutaro for Halladay. And the Jays will throw in 7 mil.
I heard that Theo will offer Scutaro, but the Jays will decline and send Halladay for a slice of pizza and some good wishes because they know that Boston suffers as only the 16th biggest market in baseball.
I think that’s probably accurate. The Red Sox seem to be willing to give up more than anyone else for Halladay, thus they are the favorites. It’s not a matter of who has the best propspects – more important is who will be willing to give them up.
You have a point, but the Red Sox MO is NOT to give up the big prospects for someone as old as Halladay. I don’t know if they’re really that much more willing than the Yankees are.
If the rumors are accurate, then they were more than willing to give up prospects at the trading deadline. Not sure why things would have changed, but it seems like they have.
I really don’t think the rumors were accurate.
What is the sense of having this huge billion+ dollar stadium that brings in the revenue streams if we do not use it to our advantage… cutting payroll is a joke. In five years I want to payroll at 250mil! or else!
Seriously though, if we are to cut payroll I think it is best we keep our young players/prospects so we don’t create holes for ourselves. 185 can’t be done if you want to pay Halladay and have a LFer… or a 2 and 5 hole hitter.
We said we’d cut payroll last year too. We did. This 185 number is a bullshit figure that was probably tossed out there as leverage towards agents. Plus, that number was tossed out there before we won 27.
Drew, amen.
Lowering payroll is ok with me, as long as that money does not go directly into their pockets, and is instead invested back into baseball operations… e.g., scouting, development, drafting, international signings
It will be interesting to see how we get Halladay (or any frontline starter) and keep payroll down to $185 mn.
Frank, I think its ALL just a bunch of fluff.
The Yankees payroll will be at or higher than $201 million next season if the right players are had.
Heyman is just trying to get something going on the quiet quiet boards.
When Marco Scutaro is the hot topic of the day, the baseball world sucks ever so slowly.
For a few moments, it was all worth it. Years of toiling in obscurity had paid off. “Marco Scutaro,” he said to himself, “you are the center of the baseball world.” He slowly sat down, wondering if he could ever really take it all in. He picked up the phone and tried calling his mother, the one person who had supported him when all others had said that he should quit his dream, but then he remembered that there was a communication workers strike back home and the lines would all be busy. He thought about his Abuela and how much she, too, would have been proud of him, and wished she was still alive to see this day.
Then, he turned to his computer to see what else everyone was saying about him…and it was all over.
“When Marco Scutaro is the hot topic of the day, the baseball world sucks ever so slowly.”
Silently, and with tears filling his eyes, Marco Scutaro shut off his computer. His day in the sun was over.
[Golf clap]
Well played.
Awesome.
Eh. No surprises here. Naturally the Yanks would make an offer, it’s just a matter of A) how much (in other words, Hughes, Joba, Montero, A-Jax?) or B) they know something we don’t and are putting a lot out there just because they know another team (most likely Red Sox) would bid more to get him. In other words, they might just be driving up the price.
Does the Boss’s declining health (its declining, right?) lend some urgency to acquiring Halladay to give the Yanks the best shot getting to and succeeding in the playoffs over the next 5 years.
If I’m Big Stein, why would I care about prospects?
If you were Big Stein then you would have the same impact on the Yankee’s FO decisions these days as you, Johnny blog poster, do. Which is to say, none.
Really? I have as much say as the owner? Sweet!
Trade Joba, Hughes and Montero for Jose Veras!!! DO IT!!! NOW!!! CASHMAN, YOU’RE FIRED!!!
Well obviously what he’s saying is that Big Stein is no longer the real owner. Hal is.
Sooo if George, who actually is the REAL OWNER says:
“Hal, I’m not long for this earth… We’re on top now… Keep is there!”
Hal would reply:
“Sorry Dad, I know you’re gonna kick the bucket soon, but I’d like to hold on to Joba cuz its really a wise long term decision.”
Really? I mean, really???
This post is logically incorrect on several levels:
1. There is strong circumstantial evidence that George Steinbrenner has decreased mental faculties, and is in no position to counsel anybody, unfortunately.
3. Um, keeping Joba IS a better move than keeping Halladay. Whatever George says. So yes, I believe that even if George were healthy Hal would argue that point.
Are you keeping point #2 a secret? Damn You!
“logically” incorrect? Huh?
The only assumptions I’m making is that Steinbrenner is close to the end, likes to win and that Halladay gives the Yankees a better chance to win over the next 1 to 5 seasons than Joba or Hughes or Montero.
I don’t think we’re disagreeing on logic whatsoever. I think we are disagreeing on whether Hal would base or force any decisions on trying to please his father before he dies.
Since neither of us are “in the know” with the Steinbrenner family there’s really no way to find out.
The Yankees should tell the Blue Jays to bring Roy Halladay to some venue, and have like 30 doors. Tell the Blue Jays that our 30 best organizational players are behind the doors and they can have whoever is behind whichever door they pick. Ah, but there’s a catch. Behind all 30 doors is a tiger ready to maul Anthopoulous! We steal Halladay and run away! Problem solved.
Can we steal Josh Johnson?
Well, the plan all hinges on whether we can convince Cano to use the Ninja suit. If not, all will be lost.
[BTW, in all seriousness, I find it highly unlikely the Marlins trade Johnson]
Ryan (Providence, RI)
Clay Bucholz, Josh Reddick, and Casey Kelly for Hanley Ramirez and Josh Johnson. Who says no?
Klaw(1:04 PM)
Mike Hill was pretty explicit that Johnson is not available.
I cannot believe Klaw didn’t destroy that questioner.
Haha seriously. Joba, AJax and Heathcott for Pujols and Wainwright. Who says no?
He works for ESPN, so it would be a conflict of interested to talk down the Red Sox organization
wth does some combination of hughes, Chamberlain, montero, Jackson mean?
If they think they are getting any more than Jackson + for a 34 y/o doc, I HAVE A BIGGGG BRIDGE TO SELL THEM!!!
Let’s remember that the Jays are dealing from weakness here. All they have to offer, really, is one year of Halladay plus some exclusive negotiating rights, and they are facing losing him for two draft picks after 2010.
Ultimately, they will take what they can get. Few (no?) teams are going to give up good prospects for Halladay unless they are able to sign him long-term, and that will be expensive. There’s a huge conflict of interest between Halladay and the Jays here. The Jays want lots of players. Halladay wants lots of money, and Halladay has the upper hand.
My bet is he gets traded for a lot less than expected.
Minor League Totals thru Age 22:
AJax:: .287 .355 .409 .764
Scouting-Power: 46 / 71 Speed: 86 Contact: 36 Patience: 56
Melky: .296 .349 .420 .769
Scouting-Power: 33 / 64 Speed: 68 Contact: 81 Patience: 39
Basically, both have put up the same numbers. However, except for the all important CONTACT field, AJax projects significantly higher. I do know AJax is a natural athlete who got into baseball late, so he is/will be behind Melky in terms of his natural talent translating into baseball skills.
NOBODY in the Yankees organization thinks AJax is a star. They do however believe that he will be AT LEAST an average offensive, above average defensive MLB Center fielder.
Melky’s 3 year MLB line sits at .269 .331 .385 .716.
AJax hopefully offers a moderate upgrade over Melky, will be cost controlled for years, is a legit base stealing threat, and allows Melky to be a decent trade chip. AJax does however really need another full year or more in AAA before he graduates.
Also notice AJax’s scouting Power numbers are reasonable better then Melky’s.
[...] salary through arbitration, and frankly he was a non-tender candidate. Considering the Yanks are looking to trim payroll, this is about $2M they can better spend elsewhere. Posted on Monday, December 7th, 2009 at [...]
[...] close to minimum, so it’s more like $187M for 22 or 23 guys. The payroll is expected to be between $190-200M next year, meaning they have roughly $10M to figure out leftfield, designated hitter, and possibly another [...]