Feb
28
Open Thread: The games are a comin’
By
Well, the Olympics are basically over, so that means Yankee baseball is right around the corner. CC Sabathia threw 28 pitches worth of live batting practice today, and he’ll do it again on Tuesday before making his spring debut on Thursday against Roy Halladay and the Phillies. Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain each threw two sets of 20 pitches today, simulating two innings. Those guys will throw another session of live BP before making their spring debuts on Friday.
Use this thread to talk about whatever you want as you prepare to get back into the grind tomorrow. Anything goes, so have at it.
Photo Credit: Kathy Willens, AP
199 Comments»
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The Mason Williams Watch
I AM SO EXCITED. REAL BASEBALL!!! (Well, not really. But you know what I mean)
2008 All-Star Game on MLB Network right now, BTW. It’s like an hour in, so there’s like 37 hours to go. And I forgot Joe Buck sounded like he wanted to throw up when he called old Yankee Stadium “a jewel.”
Grady Sizemore really could not be hotter.
Is there any chance of a six man rotation if Joba and Hughes pitch exceptional this ST? It would alleviate some of the strain on our SPs after pitching deep into the playoffs last season. Just curious what everyone thinks…
Long answer: No.
No. Anytime you take starts away from the four top starters, it’s a bad move.
Unless three of the four had high inning totals and a late end to the season.
The only way I’d like to see a six man rotation is at the very end of the season if the playoffs are already wrapped up and the starters REALLY need a break. Even then, I’d only do it maybe once or twice through the rotation.
lol. i just hate the idea of one of them going back to the freaking pen.
Why? Joba is so much more dominant in the ‘pen.
“Why?
Jobaevery pitcher is so much more dominant in the ‘pen.”fixed that for you. Why don’t you want phil in the pen then as well?
I want CC, AJ, Andy, Joba, Jazzy, AND Hughes in the pen. TAKE THAT.
I wouldn’t mind Phil in the ‘pen as well. But don’t sit there and tell me you like Joba more in the rotation. I think Gaudin or Mitre would make a great 5th starter. But not Joba.
But don’t sit there and tell me you like Joba more in the rotation.
I like Joba more in the rotation. BOOM.
Troll or lost cause? Hm…
See what Sweet Dick Willie said below. Do you dispute those points?
Doesn’t seem trollish, IMO. When he starts telling us that Joba is a switch-pitcher, though…
How is he a troll?
He thinks that Joba is better in the pen, so does a lot of other sports writers.
MSM ? logic
Fact: Every good starting pitcher is going to be more dominant in the pen.
Fact: Good starting pitchers are more valuable to a team than dominant relievers.
Agreed. Good starting pitchers are more valuable, I’m not arguing that. However, I just think Joba should be to Mo now what Mo was to Wetteland back in the day. That’s all I’m saying.
There’s a really big misconception that Mo was a setup man in 1996. He was, but he was also way, way, more than that. He pitched 100+ innings out of the bullpen when we only had one starter that gave us 200 innings. That’s huge.
I mentioned nothing about Mo being the setup man. What I meant was Joba should learn all he can (warmup exercises, how to get mentally prepared, etc.) from The Greatest Closer Of All Time, so eventually he can fill in and take over the closer role.
OK, if that’s what you meant.
But… why do you think Joba should be a closer? A decent starting pitcher is generally more valuable than a dominant reliever. He’s shown that he can do it, though he wasn’t consistent. He’s a young guy, he’s not going to be awesome from the beginning, but he’s not meant to be a closer or bullpen guy. That’d be selling his maximum ability really short.
But why? Do you not understand that ALL pitchers are more dominant in the pen than in the rotation? If that was the only criteria, then every pitcher should be in the pen. Since you obviously can’t think that’s the case, then what puts joba on one side of the line and other pitchers on the other?
I get the fact that starting pitchers will be more dominant in 1-2 innings of work rather than starting a game and going 7+ frames. I GET IT, I HONESTLY DO. All I was saying is the Yanks should groom a pitcher to take over for Mo because he’s old as dirt (God bless him and all he’s done for the organization). I think Joba would be great for that role, that’s all I was saying.
I think the issue people have is that Joba can start, so making him a closer isn’t where he could be most useful. Why can’t we groom, say, Robertson or Melancon to be the next closer?
Why can’t we groom, say, Robertson or Melancon to be the next
closerbullpen ace?FTFY
Forget this closer nonsense. Use your best relievers when you need them.
Fair enough. I just think they should start grooming somebody to take over for Mo. Personally, I would want to see Joba assume that role. That’s what I was getting at. If you guys can see the future and know it would be a failure to move Joba to the ‘pen, would you mind getting me tomorrow’s lottery numbers?
Works for me (not that any manager will do this).
If you guys can see the future and know it would be a failure to move Joba to the ‘pen, would you mind getting me tomorrow’s lottery numbers?
Nobody’s saying Joba’s going to be a failure in the pen. Joba would probably rule in the pen; we already saw it in earlier years. Mariano wasn’t the starting pitcher Joba was, and look at what he’s done. Meh starters generally = awesome relievers. Great starters probably would be unbelievable relievers, but it’s better to have them starting.
I can’t speak for others, but I at least think it’s a waste of a potentially really good SP to just put them in the pen to close.
I can’t speak for others, but I at least think it’s a waste of a potentially really good SP to just put them in the pen to close.
Exactly.
“All I was saying is the Yanks should groom a pitcher to take over for Mo”
Why is there this notion that this “grooming” needs to happen? There are always good relievers available in free agency, and relief prospects are something that the Yankees have several of.
“I think Joba would be great for that role, that’s all I was saying.”
So would Hughes, CC, Burnett and any other starting pitcher in baseball. Why Joba? And why would it ever make sense to take a starting candidate with potential and stunt his growth in this manner?
This is all I was trying to say: Joba was inconsistent in the rotation and shutdown in the ‘pen. I realize all pitchers are going to be better in fewer innings of work, but I would rather have the Yanks have a shutdown reliever than a mediocre starter, especially since they were moving him back and forth and he ended the season in the ‘pen (and since Mo is getting up there in age). Whether Joba will get better in the rotation only time will tell, but his dominance in the ‘pen is undeniable. I can also comprehend that starting pitchers are more valuable and harder to come by, but so is a dominant closer (ask the Mets). That is the only point I was trying to make. I apologize if it offended anyone.
Whether Joba will get better in the rotation only time will tell, but his dominance in the ‘pen is undeniable.
Which is why there’s no reason whatsoever to groom him for the closer role. We know he could be a closer.
Until he proves beyond reasonable doubt that he can’t start, he stays in the rotation. If that point comes, I’m sure he’ll still be capable of a successful career as a reliever.
I’m definitely not offended, I just like having this debate, what can I say.
Whether Joba will get better in the rotation only time will tell
Right. The guy is only 24. Why not give him another year or two to see if he can figure it out, at the back of the Yankees’ rotation? Putting him in the bullpen at this point would effectively be giving up on the chance that the Yankees could potentially have a very young, effective, and cheap SP. The price of pitching in trades and/or free agency is ridiculous.
I can also comprehend that starting pitchers are more valuable and harder to come by, but so is a dominant closer (ask the Mets).
Billy Wagner with the Mets: 101 SV in 3 years, 179 ERA+, a WHIP of 1.06, 10.8 K/9, 4.26 K/BB. He’s not Mariano, no one is, but that’s not dominant?
(I know what you mean, though.)
Every one wants Jobs to succeed in the rotation.
At this time, I believe he should be starting, lets give him 2010 to prove himself as a starter. HOWEVER, if by the end of this season he puts up numbers like last year’s then I think he is more valuable in the Pen.
Are 70 innings of a 2.5 ERA better than 200 innings of 4.75? One would be quick to say no, however, it is much easier to replace the latter of the two through free agency. A young shutdown reliever also holds more value in a trade than a 4 or 5 spot pitcher.
“Until he proves beyond reasonable doubt that he can’t start, he stays in the rotation.”
Fair enough, I’ll buy that for a dollar. Especially if he’s in the back end of the rotation.
But if they were going with this train of thought, why do they keep switching him between the ‘pen and the rotation.
Upon further review, I guess I’m not as angry that he’s in the rotation as I am that they keep moving him around. Regardless, wherever he goes I’ll be rooting for him to succeed, obviously.
“lets give him 2010 to prove himself as a starter. HOWEVER, if by the end of this season he puts up numbers like last year’s then I think he is more valuable in the Pen.”
You’ve got yourself a GD deal.
But if they were going with this train of thought, why do they keep switching him between the ‘pen and the rotation.
How much “switching” has really happened though? They moved him into the bullpen for the playoffs this year, which is typically what teams do with the starters who don’t make the postseason rotation.
In ’08, they started him in the bullpen to control his inning.
It’s not as if they’ve been shifting him back and forth every few weeks. They’ve treated him like a starter for the last two years. Now this year, the wheels are finally off.
They “kept switching him” to control his innings. Have you missed the entire conversation that’s been going on over the last three years about the need to control the workload of young starting pitchers? That’s what the “joba rules” were all about. I’m not entirely convinced it’s possible to know who Joba is and not know this.
At this time, I believe he should be starting, lets give him 2010 to prove himself as a starter. HOWEVER, if by the end of this season he puts up numbers like last year’s then I think he is more valuable in the Pen.
Long Version: Last year’s numbers were not bad. The “problem” is that they did not meet the mostly unrealistic expectations that had been built up around a 24 yr old starter in the AL East who is still getting used to starting for an entire season in the majors. While it is likely that he will improve, similar numbers should not be met with an immediate move to the pen because he would still be a 25 yr old with tremendous upside who is showing the ability to get ML hitters out with some consistency. If he’s 29-30 and still putting up the same numbers, or shows a massive regression for 2-3 seasons, then you could make a case for moving him back to the pen. Otherwise, he should be given time and opportunity to reach his potential.
Short Version: “WHY THE FUCK IS MY BURRITO TAKING THIS LONG TO COOK IN THIS MICROWAVE?!?!?!?” (C) tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a Archimedes Torquemada
I just finished my fantasy draft and ended up with a slew of veteran players/players coming off injuries and I was curious what you guys thought about a couple people I ended up with..
How do you think Chipper Jones/Derrek Lee/Reyes/Beltran will do?
Also was Justin Upton a bad third round pick for the year?
ESPN had him at 37/109/.288…. I don’t see how they got that.
And.. anyone’s opinion on Jay Bruce?
Chipper- can’t say I love a guy who’s turning 38 off his worst year AND struggles to stay healthy even when things are going good.
D Lee- Like
Reyes- Like
Beltran- Like minus steals.
How the hell did J-Upside last til the 3rd round?
And Bruce- LOVE (for where you probably got him)
haha I was as shocked as you.. some people overlooked him I guess… Lincecum was taken third overall.. weird bunch.
I think Reyes will have a bounce back year.
Beltran is a mystery. Lee hasn’t been the same since the wrist injury
I’d trade them both. Chipper is great, but he’s really starting to break down.
For fantasy, I always strongly consider guys in their contract year.
Lee hasn’t been the same since the wrist injury
Did you see what he did last year?
Underrated. His numbers are sick.
D-Lee <33333
Should've won the MVP in 05. Like, a lot. Sorry, Albert.
Yea, he really took after it was clear that every homer he hit was meaningless. Tallest dwarf on a terrible team.
I might be evil for this but I want the Twins to make the playoffs but only to lose in the 1st round while the away team celebrates on their turf. All of that, just to see Mauer’s priceless face of watching the other team celebrate on his home turf.
Fyi, I don’t want him on the Yankees. Not because of the “Mauer staying on the Twins is good for baseball” crap but because the Yanks are already locked up with huge contracts and adding a huge contract for a catcher who wont stick at his position for long is a bad idea when 1B and 3B are taken for 7+ years.
Was this written before the 2009 ALDS?
No. I mean it happening again in the 2010 season.
ZOMG!!! This has to be the best baseball game ever, EVER! Look at this:
Ooops this is it:
I traded in MLB ’09 and Madden ’10 today to get extra bucks for buying ’10.
Hey how much did you get for the two? Which store?
Gamestop, and $33.75.
Damn, 33 is more than I expected. Nice.
Yeah, they’re having some promotion in which you get 50% more than you’d normally get? I didn’t ask questions, I was just pumped that I got that much.
Lol, Scott Baker got pwnt in that clip.
In “opposition” to Kyle’s query above:
How long will it be before a team once again tries a four man rotation, so it can give its best starters more starts? If done carefully, that is very strict pitch counts, it would have the possibility to be successful, no? Am I crazy?
Sorry, but I think you’re crazy =P. It’d have to be a team that is VERY top-heavy in pitching with the top three guys or so being able to take a lot of abuse, and a really strong bullpen. I just don’t see it happening.
. . .VERY top-heavy . . .
Where is TSJC when you need him?
I like it, Matt. Don’t know when or if it will happen, though.
The old Orioles mantra still holds true: it’s easier to find four good pitchers than five good pitchers.
How many pitches would you expect them to throw a game? Would it be roughly the same as they throw now, but over more games? Would handing every start over to the 5th/6th reliever in the bullpen in the 5th/6th inning help win more games? The proposal isn’t just throwing your pitchers out there for 100-120 pitches every 4th day, as you’ve said, so you have to analyze what you’re trading off here.
I would say between 90-100 per game, with an absolute max of 120. For this strategy to really work, though, you’d have to stock your bullpen with lots of guys capable of going multiple innings.
So, basically, you’re not limiting their pitch counts at all, because that’s pretty much what the limits are now for most pitchers. But you’re expecting them to start 8 more games. And, to make it work, you need to get 4 quality arms in the pen (behind your closer/setup guys) that can all throw multiple innings — when most teams are lucky to find 3 that can throw ONE good inning.
I think that strategy would be one in which you could break in young pitchers in the bullpen and still groom them to be starters. That is, they’d face major league quality hitting and get a good amount of innings. You could also limit pitches to 85-100 if you’d like. I doubt any of this ever happens, though.
here’s a question: let’s suppose girardi leads the yankees to another world series victory this year and gets signed to a multi-year deal in which the yankees win two more world series. over that span, girardi wears the numbers 27, 28, 29, and 30. the yanks want to retire his number. however, which number do they retire?
the last championship he wins would be my bet…
Even though he’d go in as a manager, he could go in with his player number, 25.
41
i was at the stadium today for the tour. it was fantastic, if anyone is thinking of doing it but is not sure, for what its worth i highly recommend it.
AAHHHH BASEBALL
My thoughts exactly.
I, for one, am absolutely thrilled the Olympics are essentially over. What an awful consortium of “sports” that showcase is.
Curling? Bocce and shuffleboard on ice. You can play while pregnant?! Downhill and Nordic skiing? They’re strapped to narrow boards with poles and they move down a mountain? Endlessly fascinating. Luge? Soap box derby bobsled on an ice road.
Speed skating? People in lycra onesies skating around in a circle? Oh boy, don’t spoil the ending by telling me how they win! Ice skating? They’re dancing with skates. That, along with freestyle skiing and snowboarding, along with hockey, are at least defensible as entertaining on some level.
I’ve come up with a brief list of suggestions to improve the Winter Olympics.
*Ice fishing with explosives.
*Target shooting added to Cross Country Skiing
*Hungry bears attached to polls for Downhill Skiing
*Snowball fights played with cannons
*Avalanche pinball
*SUV Jousting
*Target shooting added to Cross Country Skiing
You mean the biathlon?
That was tongue-in-cheek to go along with the other war-based inclusions. Too subtle, perhaps.
Yeah, with all the petty nationalism involved, they may as well just have the athletes form paintball teams and start a mock war.
Now that I would watch.
Agreed. The Olympics stink, and I hate them.
Did you know that feline AIDS is the number one killer of domestic cats? Thanks, Debbie Downer.
This article makes scouting seem insanely easy. I’m very suspicious Gene wrote this himself.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn.....ski/100228
I don’t think Joba has the intellectual capacity to go through a lineup three times.
Uhh, are we talking about the same job that someone on LSD can pitch a no hitter?
He won 14 games last year with a 2.89 ERA. Lincecum won 15 with a 2.48. See what I’m saying?
No, I don’t. You just told me 2 pitchers were basically even, and your evidence is 2 flawed stats that one did better than the other in.
A-Rod is hard to watch. He’s such a phony. Hard to stomach.
Cute.
Now if you’re asking me my favorite guy to watch, it’s the Kung-Fu Panda — Pablo Sandoval of the Giants. Oh, is he funny.
Is this guy a professional baseball scout or a 9 year old kid?
The starting rotation is OK, but those four guys in the bullpen — Jesse Crain, Matt Guerrier, Jose Mijares and Joe Nathan — are nails, man.
Throwing Jesse Crain in there is just lazy.
In the NLCS, I’ll take the Cardinals and the Dodgers. I can’t take the Phillies because Lidge scares the hell out of me. Because of his inconsistency, they’re vulnerable late in the game. In a playoff situation, the closer is in there every night.
I guess this sort of drivel is to be expected from a B-Jobber. But seriously? You can’t pick the team because the closer who’s been on the team for 2 World Series trips in a row is on the team.
Early in the article: But three of those guys — Jonathan Broxton, Ronald Belisario and Ramon Troncoso — combined for more than 200 games last season. That’s a lot. There’s been studies done about productivity for relievers after they pitch in 70 games the year before. The drop-off is pretty good. So that’s a concern.
Late in the article: I think Broxton, even though he blew a lot of saves last year,
OK this HAS to be bad, he just said the guy is due for a drop off, and complained about Lidge’s inconsistency.
has a chance to be special. He throws 100 mph, and he’s got the best grade you can have on a slider.
Oh.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn.....ski/100228
Heh, I think I posted the same article on the Off-Topic thread. Gene really sucks at writing about baseball (check his articles from the World Series, they’re BAD). He says a lot of truly obvious things. Plus, how the hell is A-Rod hard to watch play? I’ll take that sure, maybe he’s hard to watch an interview with or something, but watching him play is just… lovely. I also love how his conclusions are basically “everything will be the same as in 2009.”
I won’t mind if the Yankees win again, though.
I read that same article earlier today…
And like you had no clue about the Cain-Lincecum comparison.
Also read this earlier today. Scout X was definitely just some dude who brought a clipboard and a radar gun to the park.
It’s a poorly written article all around. It starts off with a clear question in bold (“Can anybody beat the Yankees?”) thus implying initially that it is an interview. But it then switches so that key points are in bold, but does so inconsistently, so what “I don’t pay to see games” is represented as important as “In the NL East, Philly wins.”
However, based upon this groundbreaking level of useless analysis – “When I look for breakout players, I look for good, young players who have some experience who are on good clubs, with good players around them” – I think the identity of “Scout X” is clear:
It’s Joe Morgan, a man who has forgotten more about baseball than you and I and he will ever know.
Haha, well done, ROBTEN.
Thanks. I owe it all to your hard-hitting investigation into the David Eckstein “All-Grit” diet. Following the GVP’s training regimen, I too have become emaciated and frail in just 4 weeks and my posts have never been grittier!
Hah, thanks. I’d love for you to drop in for a guest post or something more if you’d be interested.
or something more
Run, ROBTEN. Run.
Thanks, I’ll definitely think about it.
Although Jack’s post now has me
excitedworriedexcitedintrigued about your offer…haha.. George teaching Derek and Bernie how to hit on Seinfeld right now.
–We won the World Series!
–In six games…
Are you the one that put us in that Ramada in Milwaukee?
I frickin love that scene. Cutest thing ever.
Tex and A-Rod are in luuuurve:
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....z0gqx3En98
also, Mike Cameron pulled his groin, I think (that’s what she said).
http://nimg.sulekha.com/Sports.....-12-13.jpg
http://media.nj.com/yankees_ma....._large.jpg
There’s no denying their facial expressions. They are one.
Alex Teixeira would be one awesome ballplayer
Teixeiarod is the same person.
I’ve seen that second one before, but it never fails to amuse me.
Just remember, they hate each other, according to Gammons!
Screw off.
I have always been a supporter of Joba in the rotation and still believe that, but is it possible that Joba mentally is not fit to be in the rotation and can’t get through the lineup 3 times like that. It’s definately something that the Yankees can fix but cud it be possible
what does that even mean?
I didn’t know Scout X posted on RAB!
I’ve never seen a situation where so many people are capable of reading someone’s mind as I see with the thousands of idiots who claim to have keen insight into the mind of Joba Chamberlain.
eh–we saw the same thing with A-rod last year in the hype for the Roberts book. We have nothing else to talk about, so everyone becomes an armchair psychologist
I still remember Joe Buck and Tim McCarver analyzing his gum-chewing from the ALCS
::headdesk::
best part of season tickets: not having to listen to those morons (for home games anyway)
http://www.chicagonow.com/blog.....button.jpg
I’ve tried. I need some kind of background noise when I have a game on. If there were a way to just mute the announcers, that would be awesome
http://eplteen.files.wordpress.....player.jpg
That’s the best part of season tickets?
best part = awesome perk of, but you are right
What evidence do you have of this?
I think Joba thinks that we think that his mentality is incapable of thinking and performing as a starter.
Just a hunch.
Last time I checked, the catcher calls all the pitches so it doesn’t really matter how “smart” Joba is. He just needs to be obedient.
After watching Joba bounce back and forth from the rotation to the pen, I’ve come to the conclusion that his problem is the same no matter where he is.
He doesn’t know what pitch to throw. He’s incredibly gifted, but Joba just throws.
He gets ahead of Michael Young, and then grooves him one. Same story to David Delluci.
In the Series, his fastball was working, and he retired two batters, but risked it throwing a fastball right down Broadway to Feliz. There was no need for that with the bases empty.
Either way, Joba needs to learn how to think it through.
And that’s something that will come with time and experience…improving his control will go a long way towards helping that, too.
You know who else struggles to understand the nuances of pitching at first?
99% of young pitchers.
People act like Joba’s struggles are something new. They’re not. Almost every young pitcher needs to “learn how to think it through”. Please stop acting like this is unique to Joba.
You know why people act that way? Because it’s been a pretty long time since the Yankees have developed someone with Joba’s level of talent and they’re not sure how to react when he struggles.
Good point, Matt.
Joba has shown the ability to get through a lineup three times at all levels in his career. He’s an expressive, dramatic guy with a live arm who excelled in a role he should have excelled in (set-up man). But he’s young and hadn’t had his arm tested in that many innings before, so people knee-jerk react and think he’s not capable of excelling as a starter. The results were mixed, but very few guys just waltz in and dominate. It’s foolish to have that expectation in the first place. However, as a starter in the big leagues, he’s put up a line of a 4.18 ERA, a WHIP of 1.48, a SO/BB rate of 2.04. Hitters overall have put up .266/.351/.407/.759 against him in that role. It’s not great, but it’s not like he’s Kei Igawa.
This is all just more unfounded vitriol because the media and unfortunately, many fans, have little patience and even less higher-level reasoning skills.
Provide some tangible evidence that suggests Joba lacks the mental capacity to be a starter.
amen, hermano
Just let Joba start and let him come out of the bullpen on his throw day! Twice the Joba and a nice little compromise.
So if Joba is too stupid to start games, what happened when he went on a roll in July?
He’s obviously capable of starting games, he’s struggling like what every young starter does.
So if Joba is too stupid to start games, what happened when he went on a roll in July?
It’s a sad story, really. (sfw)
omg. you win this thread. (applause)
IETC.
Fantastic. Simply fantastic.
He went to summer school obviously.
Get that shit outta here man.
That banhammer needs dusting off.
Man, all Kevin Durant does is get buckets. Kid’s insane.
he is, knicks should grab amare and then wait for him
If they come into 2011 with only Amare, millions of people will be pissed.
If they start losing out on the top guys, sign a B or C level guy instead, and spend the next ten years being the #6 seed and never sniffing a championship, people will be MORE pissed.
why in the world would KD leave OKC for the Knicks? OKC is going to be a perennial contender in a year or two with an insane core of players under 25. They also have cap room. If they ever get a good defensive big, look out.
they are also oklahoma city.
But teh benchpress.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/.....id=2894925
I wonder how much Greg Oden can benchpress…
he can’t even stand holding his own weight without his legs exploding. poor kid though.
With his arms?
I was waiting for that. You never disappoint, Steve. (golf clap)
Who is primed for a better year? David Price or Joba Chamberlain?
No idea. I think they’ll both improve greatly.
Hopefully less so for Price.
Spammers should be drug out into the street and shot.
The Mariano Cantradiction-
It has been well documented on this site and around baseball that an average starter >>>>> a dominant reliever. I agree with this. However, how does this aply to Mo. Are Randy Wolf and Just Duscherer more valuable than Mo. If any decent starter can really pitch a sub- 2 era, why is mo so great. I generally agree that a decent starter>>>>dominant reliever, but why will Mo go down as one of the best pitchers in history, when Pettite, Burhle, Wakefeild, or Wolf could supposedly be just as dominant.
Mo goes down in history because he’s been given the opportunity to shine in the big moments and has come through over and over and over again. If Mo had pitched with the Royals, and never been in the postseason, his reputation would be greatly diminished.
That, too.
Mo is so great because he’s done it for longer than anyone else at his position. He is the very definition of “statistical outlier” in terms of health, effectiveness, and longevity.
this. Plus he did it in the AL BEast.
Word.
This too. Papelbon has been absolutely lights out, but will need 15 more years or so to do what Mo has done. Papelbon, in his 3rd year as a closer already showed some regression, which could certainly just be an “off” year. Look at what Eric Gagne did for a few years, off the charts good. But most of these guys just don’t last like Mo has.
Word up, yo.
Are Randy Wolf and Just Duscherer more valuable than Mo.
Over one season, yup. Over their careers, no.
And FWIW Mo has been worth more throughout his career than Andy or Wakefield according to this.
That’s always surprised me. If Andy doesn’t get hurt in ’04, he’s probably past Mo.
Yep. I used to say that, sentiment aside, I’d take Andy’s career over Mo’s, but maybe not.
You know what could contribute to it is leverage. Pettitte’s leverage per that WAR system is 1.0; Mariano’s is 1.8.
Pettitte was only worth 0.6 WAR in 2006 according to that site. I don’t know the way they calculate things, but that seems… screwy to me. 214+ innings of a slightly above league average ERA and a 2.5 K/BB is worth only 0.6 WAR? Granted, he had a pretty high WHIP.
FWIW Fangraphs’ WAR puts him at 3.5 for that year.
2006: 214.1 IP, 4.20 ERA, 1.437 WHIP, 178 K, 2.54 K/BB–0.6 WAR
2007: 215.1 IP, 4.05 ERA, 1.426 WHIP, 141 K, 2.04 K/BB–2.9 WAR
translation: the NL sucks
If you removed Mariano and replaced his 60 innings a year with a replacement level player, and you removed Pettitte and replaced his 200 with a replacement level player, the Yankees would be in much worse shape because of the removal of Pettitte.
why will Mo go down as one of the best pitchers in history, when Pettite, Burhle, Wakefeild, or Wolf could supposedly be just as dominant.
Why is Jim Rice in the Hall of Fame? The media is comprised of idiots.
Mariano is the best closer in history. One of the best pitchers? No. If Tim Lincecum has 2 more years like the last 2, and then retired, we wouldn’t regard him as one of the best ever for the same reason: not enough innings.
But why should being the best closer in history mean something if you have the same talent as a slightly above average starter?
Slightly above average starters would probably make incredibly awesome relievers. Considering Mo’s age and what he did when he was a starter (granted, it was a pretty SSS), he likely was not going to be even a league average starter.
But why should being the best closer in history mean something if you have the same talent as a slightly above average starter?
Because people vastly, vastly overrate the value of a save.
You are asking me uncomfortable questions.
But really, it shouldn’t. The only thing we know is that Mariano DID turn into the most dominant closer in history, when we don’t know what kind of a starter he would have been. So we can’t compare starter!Mo to closer!Mo, and say, “well, starter!Mo pitched to a 4.70 ERA (in his hypothetical starting career) while closer!Mo pitched to a 2.20, therefore a 2.20 closer = a 4.70 starter, and neither should be considered great pitchers.” The only thing we KNOW is what he has done, and in comparison to his peers (closers), it’s remarkable. …If I’m making any sense. Which I’m probably not.
What about Sandy Koufax?
Koufax pitched for 12 years, and had 2300+ IP. If Mariano can go another 15 years and get somewhere around that inning total, then maybe we can say he’s one of the greatest ever. (Still not as good as Koufax because he’s a reliever- easy to do then starting, but whatevs.)
easier*
Any hope for Edwar on an NL team?
I don’t see why not. His K rates are no joke, I can definitely see him latching on in the NL. Hell, he could probably win 15 games with Dave Duncan as his pitching coach.
Just look at what Latroy Hawkins did when the Yankees shipped him out of town and he landed in the NL. He was absolutely dominant. I don’t expect that from Edwar, but if I’m an NL team I give him a chance. At his worst he’s terrible, but at his best he’s certainly a capable reliever.
He could be an average middle relief guy in the NL West.
Oh and I’d be remiss if I didn’t include this:
He could close in the N.L.
/Gammons’d
I feel like I should come in and explain this joke again like I did that one time.
I appreciated the backup on that one.
/Salty’d
Man Salty is getting torn apart these last couple of nights.
Oh we love Salty.
So begins The Marriage Ref. I hope this works out, but I know it won’t.
Well the intro was terrible.
Do you own stock in the show?
So I was watching MLB Network’s recap of the 2003 season the other day and they showed the game where six pitchers combined to no hit the Yanks.
It got me to thinking. Would it be feasible to have nine mediocre to good pitchers combine to pitch games every day?
Each pitcher would get one inning and batters would always be on their toes. They would never face the same pitcher twice. I mean the Yankees for example have plenty of relievers who are capable of getting three outs and most pitchers are capable of doing the same.
I was just wondering if you guys think it would be possible to get Nine pitchers to each pitch for three outs a game. If they were good enough I figure a record for no hitters could be reached.
What do you guys think?
So CC for the first, AJ for the second, Pettitte for the third, Vasquez for the fourth, Aceves for the fifth, Robertson for the sixth, Hughes to the 7th, Joba to teh eighth and Mo to close it out?
I keed, I keed. I honestly don’t know what to think of 9 pitchers pitching on the same day.
You’d have to have either like a million pitchers on your roster or pitchers that could pitch pretty much every day with no rest in between.
Well I figured that if you had nine pitchers who had previously been starting 32 games a year, one inning a day wouldn’t bother them all that much.
Aceves was a starter before and his shoulder started to act up with the infrequent relief appearances.
That’s interesting, but I was just wondering if it would even be possible.
Anyway, I figure that if a pitcher started pitching an inning a day for a while, their bodies would become acclimated to the strain.
Anyway, I figure that if a pitcher started pitching an inning a day for a while, their bodies would become acclimated to the strain.
I strongly agree with this proposal.
Sincerely,
Joe Torre
ietc but Scott Proctor probably did not.
Oh man. Memories… poor Proctor…
I don’t think it’s feasible — heavily used relievers tend to have ~70 appearances per year, which isn’t even every other day.
Ok. Thanks. That’s what I needed to know.
I would think that the consequence would be a law of diminishing return. You cannot assume that simply because a pitcher throws to one batter or one inning that they will never allow men on base. As such, the problem is that the more pitchers you bring into each game, the more you risk one of them not having their best stuff and blowing up, requiring that you then bring in another pitcher. If one or two pitchers have bad outings, you’ve essentially destroyed your bullpen.
Or, to put it another way:
If CC has shown an ability to get multiple hitters out on a regular basis, why would you place an artificial limit on this just to bring in a series of subsequently less effective pitchers?
What makes starters so valuable compared to relievers is that they can go through a line-up multiple times. Rather than turning everyone into a reliever, the key should be developing as many good-to-great starters as you can.
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Presumably as payback for making him answer the question “Minka or Kate?” back when Kate was still relevant, my little brother made me choose “the most purely physically attractive player on the Yankees, entirely separating looks from baseball skills.”
Even when we went to an open-tournament format (“All right, you’re down to 16 from the first round… now let’s go to Round 2 and get you down to Top 8″) I couldn’t determine the winner.
Bottom line: I’m bad at making decisions. Or maybe I’m bad at judging men purely on their looks.
Hey, the Yankees have some damn fine men on their team.
Word to that.
Though, heh, that wasn’t really the point of what you were trying to say. So let’s just say we are very lucky that we have a bunch of good-looking guys who are also, far more importantly, exceptionally talented at baseball.
LOL. I commend you for finding a point in there.