Mar
22

Succeeding Andy Pettitte

By

Andy Pettitte gets some work in during Spring Training. (AP Photo/Gene J. Puskar)

Since 1994, the New York Yankees have been the cream of baseball’s crop. They reached the playoffs every year except one, won the AL East 11 times, captured seven AL titles and brought home the World Series trophy five times. Yet, throughout the years of success, the Yankees have not done a very good job of developing pitchers internally.

On Gene Michael’s and Bob Watson’s and Brian Cashman‘s various watches, the Yankees’ system has mostly come up barren when it comes to arms. They brought along Mariano Rivera but nearly traded him before realizing what they had. His emergence is generally considered a fortuitous happening, and the Yankees can take some, but not all, credit for him. If George had his druthers, Mariano would have been elsewhere.

Beyond Mo, though, a handful of others made small impacts. Sterling Hitchcock bounced around the league for a bit but wasn’t much more than a below-average left-hander. Ramiro Mendoza, an unsung hero from the late 1990s, served as the team’s long reliever and spot starter with great success. Only Andy Pettitte has turned into something special.

Number 46 was also one of those Yankee pitchers who was nearly traded, but except for three years in the mid-2000s, Pettitte has been a pinstripe stalwart since 1995. Over 12 seasons with the Yanks, he is 192-109 with a 4.02 ERA and a 113 ERA+. In 40 post-season starts, he is 18-9 with a 3.90 ERA, and last year, Andy won the clinching games in the ALDS, ALCS and World Series.

Yet, Pettitte is no longer a young man. The 2010 season will be his age 38 year, and he is clearly feeling the call of retirement. He wants to spend more time with his family, and after spending a few years going through the “will he or won’t he” dance of re-upping with the Yanks, he confidently returned for 2010. Still, this is shaping up to his informal swan song. If Andy Pettitte retires after this year, few will be surprised.

For the Yankees, then, Pettitte’s looming departure underscores the need to find out what the team has in Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes. Right now, the only starters the Yanks have under contract for 2011 are A.J. Burnett and CC Sabathia. Burnett will be 34, and CC will be pitching in a potential opt-out year. The Yanks could open up the checkbook for a Josh Beckett or Cliff Lee type, but the team can’t spend $80-$100 million on five starting pitchers.

So with Joba and Phil, as much as I don’t like ultimatums, 2010 is the year to see what these two can do. Joba is off of his innings limit but seems to be losing the fifth starter race while Phil Hughes will be entering his second straight season in the majors after some injury-filled developmental years. It is important to remember, too, that Joba will turn 25 later this year and Phil Hughes will turn 24. We demand results now while forgetting their age.

What the Yankees are looking for is an internal low-cost solution, one that can replace Andy Pettitte and maybe another than can replace Javier Vazquez after this year. Can Joba or Phil be pitchers who are 3.5-5.5 wins above replacement? That’s what Pettitte has done for the Yankees over his career, and it’s not a reach to see either or both reaching that range. It is, of course, a matter of patience and a leap of faith for the team to stick with the pitchers, but as the Yanks try to get younger on the field and leaner in the wallet, those who replace Andy Pettitte could be linchpins for years to come.

Categories : Pitching
  • mike c

    cliff lee + joba/hughes for 2011

    • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

      That’s probably what the Yanks will do, but that’s a lot of money wrapped up in pitching over more years than I’d like.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

        Other solution:

        cliff lee Javy Vazquez + joba/hughes for 2011

        • Reggie C.

          There was retirement talk buzzing around Javy. I wonder if he’d be cool taking a 2 yr deal , assuming of course Javy makes us all forget of 2004.

          • Thomas

            This offseason, Javy mentioned about going year to year like Pettitte. Obviously, that could be highly beneficial to the Yankees, but I am highly skeptical that he really does look for a one year deal after the season.

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

              I think something like a 2/26 or a 3/39 gets it done, and I’d have no problem paying Javy 3 years rather than paying Lee 5 or 6.

              • thurdonpaul

                I like this idea better then Lee or Beckett.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

                  Well, Lee isn’t THAT bad of an idea, I just like the lower risk/solid reward of Javy a little better. Lee’s really good, though. Really good.

                  I’d say it’s:

                  Javy for 3yr/12-14per >>> Lee for 5yr/18-21per >>>>>>>>>>> Beckett for anything/something

                • thurdonpaul

                  Mr. tsjc, Ok im on board with that. You have any beer there to toast to it ?

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

                  (cracks open two tasty Pinstripe Highlander Irish Stouts™ and hands one to thurdonpaul)

                • thurdonpaul

                  mmmm yummm ty Sir

                • radnom

                  How does the Irish Stout not reference Mantle in some form?

      • Tom Zig

        Cliff Lee:

        5 Years, 18 Mil.

        Javy Vazquez:

        3 years 16 Mil

        Just guessing.

      • mike c

        hypothetically, if the price point is 3/60 for lee and 3/40 for JV, i’d go for the gusto and do it ’98 style

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

          I’d be shocked if Lee accepts a 3 year deal a year after Lackey and two years after Burnett both got 5/80s.

          Shocked.

          • thurdonpaul

            But isnt there some injury concerns with Lee ?

            • Zack

              He had offseason foot surgery, but that’s it.
              Far less than the injury concerns Lackey and AJ had.

              • bexarama

                He also has another issue that just popped up. A muscle tear, or something?

                • thurdonpaul

                  Yeah, ok I thought I heard about something else.

                • Zack

                  http://www.rotoworld.com/conte.....38;id=3565

                  He has a “lower right abdominal strain” and is expected to miss his first start.

                  I wouldnt call that an ‘injury concern’ when talking about a long term contract.

                • Tom Zig

                  Is that code for I’m not going to appeal my suspension?

          • mike c

            He’s a year older than lackey, although much more talented a pitcher. I’d go in on 5 with him– keep in mind CC could very well opt-out that year and we need some insurance

            • Zack

              Insurance = they can out-bid everyone again for CC

              • mike c

                i suppose, but signing Lee would give the Yankees a definite advantage in renegotiation with CC. and in the end CC+Lee > CC+JV

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

                  …and in the end CC+Lee > CC+JV

                  Sure, but is it worth two extra years of contractual obligation and 40-60M extra in total value? Perhaps not.

                • Reggie C.

                  The thing nobody’s brought up & likely the generator for the Lee argument is the fear that AJ Burnett will forget what Doc taught him & regress. if Cash has faith in Aj , we definitely make no run at Lee.

                • WIlliam

                  That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever read.

  • steve s

    Bleich hasn’t shown us yet that he is up to the task but his motion sort of resembles Pettitte and he is a high enough pick to cut some slack until he finds his stuff. He certainly fits the internal low-cost parameters.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

      If Bleich/Nova/ZMac can all have solid seasons in Scranton this year, it would go a long way towards providing enough 6th starter options to move both Joba and Hughes into the rotation together with no training wheels.

  • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

    While I want them both to have success this year, it is far from a make or break year for either of them. Just for fun, below I will list 5 young stud AL East pitchers, in order from oldest to youngest.

    Clay Buchholz
    David Price
    Wade Davis
    Joba Chamberlin
    Phil Hughes

    It puts things in perspective. The 1st 3 are getting time to develop, and are viewed as the future. Joba and Hughes are viewed in some regards as busts already, and they are the youngest of the 5.

    • bexarama

      Thank. You.

      I also remember the panic on another site when Hughes was pitching against Price in an early ST game and I think Joba had pitched the day before; Price was touching 95 or so while Joba and Hughes were getting kind of beat up and apparently this meant that the Yankees had ruined those two FOREVAH. These people aren’t really anywhere to be found now that Hughes and Joba are doing better.

    • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

      It isn’t make or break for their careers, but the Yankees are going to have to make some tough pitching decisions that would be far easier if Hughes and Joba both put it all together this year. No one’s writing either off with bad seasons in 2010, but the economics and the Yanks’ current contract obligations make the next six months fairly important for the pitching staff.

      • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

        I completely agree with that, I wasn’t implying that you were writing off their careers. I think if one of them shows enough this year (and really Joba just needs to pitch a little better than last year), that you can be pretty comfortable with both of them in the rotation next year, even if they aren’t in the Cy contention. If Joba regresses, and Phil doesn’t get a chance to pitch 175 innings, the questions, for the Yankees, but not about their careeers, will be huge.

  • Hughesus Christo

    Yet another reason to put Phil Chamberlain in AAA after Joba Hughes secures the 5th starting spot.

    Also, I felt the same way last year, but Pettitte is on the precipice of uselessness, even if he avoids major injury again. His margin of error is way down. He is now on the Moose Plan™.

    • http://www.audiencesounds.com/ Templeton “Brendog” Peck

      so is he going to learn to pitche like jamie moyer? the 2008 version please, not 2009.

    • Beamish

      Absolutely – they are both Starters. The “loser” of the 5th Starter battle goes to AAA. Of course that has to be Joba or else Hughes will simply have to come up and go to the pen due to his Option Clock expiring.

      I would like to Joba stay at AAA as a starter from half the season then come up to take the 5th Starter role while Hughes is forced to the pen by his innings limit. It would also mean no one in the rotation is hurt.

      Also I think spending a few more months in AAA would teach Joba a bit of that humility he seems to be lacking. He is good – but he is not great…yet. I have never been impressed by his 5 cent head behavior but I do love the million dollar arm.

  • Tom Zig

    Can Joba or Phil be pitchers who are 3.5-5.5 wins above replacement?

    I’d be ecstatic if just one can put up a 3.5 WAR this year. That would be a huge step in the right direction.

    • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

      If/when it’s Joba as the fifth starter, I think he can do 2.5 WAR this season.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

        Yeah, Joba put up a 2.4 WAR last year despite sucking horribly the last two months of the year.

        I think the biggest thing keeping these kids from being 3.5 WAR pitchers is the fact that they’re constantly being removed from the rotation for one reason or another. If that stops and they’re given the rotation spots that their talent merits they deserve, they’ll be fine.

        • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

          Where are you seeing 2.4 WAR? FG has him at 1.5 for last season and StatCorner (tRA based WAR) had him at 1.4 for SP and 0.1 for RP, so also 1.5.

          • http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0902/mlb.alex.rodriguez.through.the.years/images/1993.alex-rodriguez.jpg Drew

            He looked at the projected line on FG.

            • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

              Ah, yeah. I see that, too.

            • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

              Yeah, whoops, my bad.

              (pours self a bitter, humbling Pinstripe DFA IPA™)

              • http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0902/mlb.alex.rodriguez.through.the.years/images/1993.alex-rodriguez.jpg Drew

                You are not who we thought you were.

                /Bizzaro Denny’d

                • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

                  And we didn’t let him off the hook.

              • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

                Taste your own tears, Tommie.

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

                  The only thing I have to comfort me is the knowledge that my sample size is still very large.

  • http://twitter.com/JamalG_BB Jamal G.

    I’m a proponent of the Yankees signing Cliff Lee – ~$20M per annual for three starting pitchers on the wrong side of 30 that are signed for at least three more seasons (by 2011)? Considering Javier Vazquez says he wants to sign one-year contracts from here on out, that benefit of a Lee mega-deal does not outweigh the risks in comparison to a short-term Vazquez deal.

    Even if it’s not Vazquez, I hope the Yankees can find an alternate to signing Josh Beckett or Lee.

    • http://www.soxandpinstripes.com JGS

      wouldn’t that make you an opponent of signing Lee?

      • Tom Zig

        Yeah I think that’s what he meant.

    • bexarama

      I assume you mean not a proponent based on the rest of your comment.

      If Vazquez does well this year, and he really does want a one-year deal, I’d get that done in a hot second. Even if he wants a longer deal than just one year, I don’t think he’ll want as much as Lee or Beckett. Also, I’ll root for the laundry, but don’t make me root for Beckett. Plz, Yankees. ;_;

      • thurdonpaul

        I agree, please dont make me root for Beckett.

        • http://www.soxandpinstripes.com JGS

          I threw up a little bit just thinking about that

      • Tom Zig

        but don’t make me root for Beckett

        Well he would have to shave those pubes off his chin, and I don’t think he wants to stop being a giant douche. So it looks like it’s a no-go.

        • thurdonpaul

          Sounds good to me.

    • Zack

      Arroyo, Bedard, De La Rosa, Duchscherer, Garland, Harden, Harang, Lilly, Huroda, Millwood, Sheets, Westbrook.

      Those are the alternates who will be FA (excluded the Pavanos, Suppans, etc). So really you dont have a lot of options- unless Cashman can pull off another Javy-like trade.

      Ideally, I’d want Javy back, Joba to step up for an entire year, and leave the 5th spot open for Hughes.

      • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

        Ideally, I’d want Javy back, Joba to step up for an entire year, and leave the 5th spot open for Hughes.

        That’d be nice.

        • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

          I agreed, though for a second I thought it said “Joba to set up for an entire year.” Glad it said step up.

          • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

            Would I ever agree with Joba setting up for a year?

            • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

              No, neither would Zack. That’s what scared me.

    • http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0902/mlb.alex.rodriguez.through.the.years/images/1993.alex-rodriguez.jpg Drew

      Please Cash, offer Javy arbitration. Assuming all goes as planned of course.

      • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

        Agreed 100%.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

        Agreed. Putting aside for a moment the likelihood of the players accepting (which, as Mondesi rightly repeats, must be a consideration in the calculus), in a vacuum, offering a 34 year old Javy Vazquez (coming off an 11M salary) arbitration is a much safer “worst case scenario” than offering arb to Andy Pettitte, Johnny Damon, Bobby Abreu, Xavier Nady, etc. over the past few years.

        Jazzy accepting arb and winning his decision still wouldn’t lead to him being grossly overpaid for his market or becoming a roster permutation liability. Whether he accepts or declines, it’s a win-win for us.

      • YankeesJunkie

        Javy has a really good shot to be the Yankees second best pitcher this year IMHO. Hopefully, Javy will shut up the fans that don’t know jack about baseball and just remember 2004, that was six years ago and Javy has been a consitent pitcher every since leaving New York. While Lee would be nice to have years 4 and beyond of his contract would probably not be to fun to watch. In a perfect world Joba and Hughes both become starters in 2011, where the winner of this year’s competition starts 30 games and pitches more like a #3 starter rather than #5 starter.

        • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

          Javy will shut up the fans that don’t know jack about baseball and just remember the 2nd half of 2004, or even one pitch in 2004.

          A little addition to your spot on comment. I fully expect Javy to be the 2nd best pitcher on the team, unless Joba makes the leap.

      • Tom Zig

        That’s the thing, Javy isn’t making a whole lot of money (11.5 million in 2010 via Cot’s). So why not offer him arbitration? Say he accepts what will he get like 13-14 million? That’s not bad either. If he rejects the Yanks get two draft picks.

        • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

          Or even this. Javy gets $17 million in arbitration, which of course would mean he just had a lights out year, so of course you’d take him at $17mil for 1 year.

  • Reggie C.

    It’d be nice to have TWO bonafide aces front the staff in CC & Lee, but tied-up money & a slow economic rebound are real considerations. Writing that luxury tax check is probably Hal’s worst day of the year.

    • thurdonpaul

      Maybe he writes that check the day before steak an bj day so it doesnt sting for to long :)

      • Snakes on the mother effin plane

        I love that day.

    • YankeesJunkie

      I just don’t see the Yankees signing Lee, I think they will make a real hard move on Crawford and hope that Hughes and/or Joba develop into top line starters which they could as they are both still very young.

      • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

        2010 Opening Day Rotation:

        CC-AJ-Jazzy-Joba-Hughes. Book it.

        • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

          2010? So Pettitte retires or gets injured in the next 10 days?

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

            (hangs head)

            Oh, this is gettin’ ri-god-damn-diculous!

            /Vitchard’d

            • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

              Wow. Maybe you need to retire.

            • thurdonpaul

              Tommie, thats it, no more beer for you.

            • Tom Zig

              Passes a delicious (and by delicious I mean, it has all of the poor qualities of Milwaukee’s Best Ice and Steel Reserve and none of the good) Pinstripe DFA IPA to TSJC

            • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

              This is the 2nd time, same topic. You’re lining up the DFA’s left and right.

              Subconciously, I think you want Pettitte hurt. (and now bexy will proceed to stab you)

              • bexarama

                I was just coming here to say NOOOO STOP WISHING FOR ANDY TO GET HURT I HATE YOU ALL, heh.

              • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

                Yeah, I’m gonna stop sayin’ what crawls up in the ol’ noggin there…

                • thurdonpaul

                  I have faith in you tommie just take a couple of deep breaths, you can get through this .

                • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

                  just take a couple of deep breaths, you can get through this.

                  TWSS

          • YankeesJunkie

            I guess this guy has a plan to get Andy P. injured in the near future.

          • Tom Zig
          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

            2010? So Pettitte retires or gets injured in the next 10 days?

            Nope: We’re going to trade him to the Dodgers for the rights to Jamie Hoffmann.

            There, I spun it. I’m golden again.

            • bexarama

              (curls up in the fetal position, sobs)

            • thurdonpaul

              Wow, what a great idea. Im offering you a soda to toast.

      • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

        Gut reaction with a little bit of thought, I want neither Crawford nor Hughes.

        • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

          That should read “Lee”, not “Hughes.”

          /DFA IPA’d
          /eating mocking words @ Tommie

          • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

            WHAT THE HELL’S GOIN’ ON AROUND HERE?!?!?!

            /VinceLombardi’d

        • YankeesJunkie

          I have to disagree, Crawford would be a great addition to the Yankees lineup with great offense and defense and give the Yankees just give the Yankees another boost to the already best offense in the league.

          • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

            But is it wise to sign a guy who relies on his legs/defense for value and has average-at-best OBP and power skills to a long term deal? A short term deal–three years–would be fine, I guess, but anything longer than that could be dangerous. The risk in signing mini-CC, though, is likely a lot smaller than the risk in signing Lee.

            • http://www.audiencesounds.com/ Templeton “Brendog” Peck

              see: luis castillo

              • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

                Eh; Crawford may not have much power, but compared to Castillo, he’s fuckin’ Harmon Killebrew.

  • Hughesus Christo

    I wouldn’t want to sign Lee to a huge deal under any circumstances. The track record isn’t there. 20+ a year? Get the Mitre out of here.

    • mike c

      he’s worth 20 all day, maybe less on a longer deal, but he’s the elite FA pitcher for the next couple years for sure.

    • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

      Well, if he’s commanding a 20M per contract, it’s because he had a dominant 2010 year, and that would give him three years in a row of Cy-Young level production (’08-’09-’10).

      That’s enough of a track record. Is his pre-’08 track record pretty weak? Sure, but he’s getting paid for who he is NOW, not what he was then.

      ——————–

      Fun Comp time:

      Pitcher A
      First 6 seasons: 125 starts, 94 ERA+, 1.375 WHIP
      Next 2 seasons: 65 starts, 147 ERA+, 1.178 WHIP

      Pitcher B
      First 5 seasons: 157 starts, 106 ERA+, 1.317 WHIP
      Next 3 seasons: 97 starts, 145 ERA+, 1.140 WHIP

      Pitcher A is Lee. Pitcher B was recently a free agent and got a fat new contract from a team looking for an ace, and he rewarded them handsomely. I’ll give you one guess as to who he is.

      • Tom Zig

        Daniel Boone?

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

          Sorry, no. I was looking for “Sardo Numspa”.

        • mike c

          Boone Logan

      • Zack

        Randy Wolf?

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size

          Not sure if serious…

      • bexarama

        is Pitcher B Sabathia?

        • kunaldo

          That was my guess too

        • http://twitter.com/tsjc68 tommiesmithjohncarlos a/k/a The Large Sample Size
      • Hughesus Christo

        Your comp to CC (I assume) is meh. Sabathia started pitching in MLB at 21, didn’t see his numbers wildly swing back and forth during his career prior to the deal, or look for his gigantodeal at 32.

  • Renny Baseball

    Media is getting ridiculously carried away with anointing Phil the 5th SP. “Reporting” is atrocious, instead selective and non-factual, present company excluded.

    • http://mystiqueandaura.com/ JMK the Overshare’s Mystique and Aura

      Teetering on the edge of off topic.

  • dkidd

    is andy a hall of famer?

    11 seasons of 14 or more wins, 9 of them in the al east
    5 seasons of top 6 cy young voting
    post-season success

    i still say no, but it’s not an obvious answer

    • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

      No. He’s in the Hall of Very Good, but not the HOF.

      • dkidd

        gotta love his durability. except for 02 and 04, his games/games started looks like…

        33 33
        34 34
        31 31
        34 34
        36 35
        32 32

        and so on

        • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

          Yep, that’s awesome. But it shouldn’t put him in the HOF.

          • dkidd

            agreed. if i was voting, i’d take 5-7 years of dominance over 15 years of very good

        • http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

          36 35

          Are you telling me he came out of the pen once?

          Andy Pettitte is a stahting pitchah!!!

    • thurdonpaul

      I think if Andy pitches 2 or 3 more years at his current production theres a very good chance he makes the hall of fame.

    • bexarama

      No way, and this from someone who likes him a lot. The only argument you can really make for him are the counting stats and even then, they’re not that impressive, mostly just because he’s pitched for so long on generally very good teams.

      He’ll get votes but it’ll be like voting for Jack Morris. I just hope he doesn’t get more votes than Mussina and people won’t write dumb articles defending their votes for Andy and non-votes for Moose with stuff like how Pettitte was “just a winner” and Mussina “couldn’t handle pressure” because then I’ll feel obliged to make fun of them, and I’ll feel bad for saying bad things about Andy. :(

      • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

        Mussina should be in. If Glavine is going to get in, Moose had better get in. Moose >> Glavine.

        • bexarama

          Yup. Though Glavine’s peak was very, very good. I was surprised at how meh his stats are overall for a guy that’s considered an absolute no-brainer first-ballot Hall of Famer, though. Damn you, magical 300 win total!!!!

          • Snakes on the mother effin plane

            Which raises the question, how many more years before some other threshold – 250? – becomes the new 300?

      • dkidd

        andy vs moose is the perfect case study for old-school proponents of “clutch”

        • dkidd

          mussina: prickly northeasterner who loved crossword puzzles
          andy: gutsy, gritty gamer who loved christ, spoke with a accent, and raised his game when it mattered most

          • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

            And did HGH.

            I’m not saying it should count against him, but it will in the eyes of the voters.

            • http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

              Then again, I don’t doubt the voting body’s ability to be hypocritical so they may let Andy slide.

            • bexarama

              When the Yankees win #28 this year and Andy gets his 20th postseason win ;) he will get an equal number of dumb “20 wins in the postseason!” votes as he loses dumb “BUT TEH STEROIDS!!!” votes.

        • bexarama

          the silliest argument against Moose being “clutch” was I think 1996 when he had like four chances to get win #20 and couldn’t get it. He did get beat up in three of those starts, but the last one of those starts was a game where he went 8 innings, gave up 1 run, struck out 9, and got a ND. Plus, frankly, that Moose was even that close to 20 in that year was kinda weird, as it was, all things considered, one of his weakest years with the Orioles. 103 ERA+, 4.04 FIP.

          On the other hand, Pettitte went for win #20 in his last start of 2000. He gave up nine runs and walked more guys than he struck out (4 to 2) in 1.1 innings. So… yeah. (I wish sites like this/LoHud existed toward the end of the 2000 season. The panic would have been delicious.)

          • dkidd

            i remember gammons saying that mussina’s problem was that “he doesn’t pitch to win, he pitches not-to-lose”

            not sure how that qualifies as a problem, peter. he managed to “not lose” 270 times

            • Snakes on the mother effin plane

              Actually he “didn’t lose” more times than that if you add his NDs…

          • CS Yankee

            A) Moose might of been the best pitcher in MLB for 1-3 years while on the O’s
            B) Pettitte was never the best pitcher in MLB but had complete redemption in the ’96 WS after the MSM pronounced the Braves better than the ’27 Yankees & outpitched the Braves #1 gun in doing so.
            C) Glavine was never the best pitcher on the Braves and often was their #3 guy behind Maddux & Smoltz. Has over 300, but was a Met.

            I’ll take B for the clutchness please.

  • http://www.theyankeeu.com/ Nostra-Artist

    Thanks for the link, Ben. Always appreciated.