Baseball does not move fast enough for Joe West
By
Cowboy Joe has a problem: The glacial pace of Red Sox-Yankees games is getting under his skin, and the players just don’t respect him or the game.
“They’re the two clubs that don’t try to pick up the pace,” Joe West, umpire, crew chief at Fenway this week and sometimes singer/songwriter, said prior to last night’s game. “They’re two of the best teams in baseball. Why are they playing the slowest? It’s pathetic and embarrassing. They take too long to play.”
West’s rant came after players on both teams complained Tuesday night when they were denied time outs by home plate umpire Angel Hernandez. With reporters at the ready, West continued his tirade. “The commissioner of baseball says he wants the pace picked up. We try and still almost went four hours,” he said. “All of baseball looks to these two clubs to pick up the pace… The players aren’t working with us. This is embarrassing, a disgrace to baseball.”
A disgrace to baseball. Strong words coming from an umpire who once quit his job as a failed labor negotiation tactic.
The reaction to West has, unsurprisingly, been swift and somewhat critical. Rob Neyer supported West’s statements but wondered if the umpires should be at fault. Jason at It’s About The Money, Stupid highlighted West’s strike zone. Others have questioned West for speaking out in the first place. Umpires, many believe, should be seen and not heard.
But West has a point, and we’ll get to that in a minute. First, I’d like to address concerns about West’s strike zone as one reason for the game’s delay. The argument alleges that West doesn’t call low strikes, and thus, pitchers are throwing more pitches and the game takes longer. That is partially true, but if we take a look at the normalized strike zone, that argument breaks down. Via Brooks:
It’s true that Joe West doesn’t call a low strike, but he’s willing to extend the zone to his left a bit. By my count, he called nearly as many pitches that were strikes balls as he did pitches that were out of the zone strikes. That’s a spurious argument, and it detracts from West’s valid points.
The valid point is that Yankee-Red Sox games are very, very long. Sunday’s game took three hours and 46 minutes to play; Tuesday’s lasted three hours and 48 minutes. Even last night’s 10-inning affair went on for three hours and 21 minutes. According to figures from last year, an average major league game lasts around 2:52 while the Yankees play games that average 3:08 and the Sox 3:04. When the two teams play each other, they averaged nine innings in 3:30 last year, a good forty minutes slower than league average. Pick up the pace, indeed.
But, as always, the question remains: Does it matter? The Yankees and Red Sox both take more pitches than just about any other team in baseball, and the two teams were one and two in the AL in on-base percentage last year. As I said yesterday, the more pitches a team takes, the baserunners they have, the more runs they have, the more pitchers they see, the longer the game takes.
Meanwhile, from the money perspective, few fans care. In the New York area, YES Network enjoyed its second-highested rated regular season game ever on Opening Night, and NESN had its highest Opening Night ratings in its history. ESPN2, airing the game outside of the two major New England and New York media markets, scored a 2.4 rating, just a few thousand viewers behind the NCAA women’s championship game. The fans have repeated said they don’t mind the long games; they just want baseball.
In the end, I think Joe West’s claims are right. The Yankee/Red Sox games do take too long, and some of that is because the games are sometimes managed as though they are Game 7 ALCS chess matches and not just games one, two and three of the regular season. I think baseball should try to cut down on these lengthy games for the overall health of the sport. After all, we want to see game action and not David Ortiz spitting on his batting gloves for the fourth time in three pitches.
But Joe West is also wrong. It’s not his place to call baseball’s marquee teams an embarrassment. It’s not his place to yell at the players. Let Bob Watson spin his wheels arguing with teams over picking up the pace. The umpires just sound as though they’re whining in the face of baseball’s success, and that is what I find to be a disgrace to baseball.
* * *
Update (5:09 p.m.): Mariano fires back
As Joe West’s comments reverberate throughout baseball, Mariano Rivera has slammed the umpire over his remarks. Brian Costello and George A. King III caught up with the Yankee closer who wasn’t too pleased to hear West complaining about having to do his job.
“It’s incredible,” Rivera said to the two Post reporters. “If he has places to go, let him do something else. What does he want us to do, swing at balls?”
Rivera, a player who has tremendous respect for the game and the umpires, didn’t hold back. “He has a job to do. He should do his job,” Rivera said. “We don’t want to play four-hour games but that’s what it takes. We respect and love the fans and do what we have to do and that’s play our game.”
On the one hand, it will, as Costello and King write, be interesting to see how West reacts the next time he’s behind the plate for a Mariano appearance. On the other hand, Rivera, the Yankees and the Red Sox should be insulted by West’s comments. As many have pointed out, West’s partiality is now in doubt, and Bud Selig should step in to calm this escalating situation.
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I still don’t get why its a bad thing if a game is long. I mean, who’s it hurting?
I think the issue people have is that the games are long because of inactivity (e.g. pitchers taking too long between pitches, too many visits to the mound, too many timeouts by hitters). In that respect, I agree. Yanks-Sox games sometimes drive me insane with the long delays between every pitch and what seems to be absurd over-managing.
And Ben has another point; the teams both take so many damn pitches that it is going to add up over the course of a game. I think all fans of this site will agree that taking pitches = good, but watching hitters take a lot of pitches over the course of a game can sometimes = boring.
I know I’d like to watch a game with a ton of stolen bases, hit-and-runs, bunts, and guys taking giant hacks at anything near the plate; that’s why we have the minors and independent leagues. Because if the Yankees played like that, they would probably suck. All that stuff is never fun to watch if your team loses.
THAT is why we have season tix to our AA team. anything you can think of, they do. including thirsty thursday, sit wherever you want night, BP with the team, and vote on the song played in the 8th.
First of all, the stations broadcasting these games, and their sponsors don’t mind at all.
Second: there are two reasons that games take so long to play. First, hitters step out of the box after EVERY PITCH. I mean every single pitch. If the average hitter sees somewhere between 3 and 4 pitches per AB, and these step outs take 15 to 20 seconds, you’re adding nearly an hour minumum to every game (3 pitches, 15 seconds, 70 at bats), 52 and a half minutes. Cut that in half and you’re cutting 25 mins or so. Second reason is pitchers and catchers waste too much time between pitches…pitchers wander around the mound, adjust sleeves, caps, key body parts, and the long series of catcher trips to the mound to discuss what to buy the first baseman as a wedding gift or whatever.
This didn’t happen overnight. It has built up over decades; one only has to look at, say, Ron Guidry looking in, getting sign, windup, pitch, rinse and repeat. Or Roger Maris, stand in the box, couple of half swings, get set. Personally, I really don’t care much, since if I’m watching the Yankees, I’m not mowing the lawn or having to go shopping at the mall.
Also…the likes of Joe West add plenty of time to games. What’s with each umpire having his own strike zone? ‘He won’t give the low strike’, or ‘he won’t give the high strike’. You know what has a good strike zone? The rule book. Pitchers have to probe the plate to find out what a strike is today, and this is a waste of time, too. Maybe umpires should have their own fair territory, too…’he’ll give the wide fair ball call’. It’s so much nonsense. If Joe West wants the game sped up, maybe he should look in the mirror, too (*shudder*)
I think they should make baseball 7 innings long and they should also stop the asshole players quit adjusting the velcro on their batting gloves. It doesn’t make the game any longer, but it annoys the crap out of me especially the players who adjust the velcro after every pitch whether they swing or not. It also annoys me when a lot of players make religious gestures like pointing to the sky. It annoys me when Ivan Rodriguez does the sign of the cross after every pitch. Major League baseball is not a church league.
Maybe we can get the horrible Joe West, Angel Hernandez umpiring team banned from Yankee games. As bad as West is, Hernandez is far worse.
Joe West is an excellent umpire. I’m just saying.
I could have sworn at one point Tuesday night, Marcus Thames asked for time, got out of the box, it was not granted, got back in and Lester still threw a ball.
That happened.
I don’t see how an umpire can complain… You get to watch the two best teams in baseball play each other… and umpires still don’t work 8+ hour days.
I’d like Joe West to switch Jobs with me for a week, than that’ll be a tirade.
Joe West would try and throw your boss out of the office if he cut in line at the copier.
Copier? I do home deliveries for P.C. Richard and Son, i’d like to see Joe West’s Fatass carry a 600 pound refrigerator up 2 flights of stairs.
I wonder what his complaint would be…
You know what I would pay to see that.
I would too. I wonder if he would choose Angel hernandez to help him out…
Angel would yell at everyone. Do it all wrong, try to fit in places it wouldn’t fit. Then evict the customer for complaining
Without giving anyone a timeout.
There is no need to compare jobs. I respect the umpires and they are away from their family from February to October
“They’re two of the best teams in baseball. Why are they playing the slowest? It’s pathetic and embarrassing. They take too long to play.”
This is exactly why. Innings don’t end as quickly when teams are scoring runs. Both the Yankees and Red Sox just so happen to lead the league or come close for the better half of the past decade.
The guys an old fart too…if he’s mad about the way baseball has changed…that’s his problem. He should retire. That’s like me going up to my boss and telling me that I don’t want to work late to finish a project they’re paying me for…or that I don’t want to travel this week because I previously did a project where I didn’t have to.
It’s a game. You play the game anyway you want within boundaries. There is no time in baseball – that’s what sets it apart from the other sports (among other things). So now because you don’t like the length of these games you’re going to try to personally introduce your own half-assed version of a time limit?
There are plenty of younger guys out there that would cut off their arms (if they didn’t have to use them) in order to umpire major league baseball games…and this guy is complaining about it because he’s taken it for granted for nearly 35 years. Somehow that’s now our problem.
I don’t think it is.
get off his lawn!
it’d be cool to see an average time per pitch–find a way to eliminate the tv time outs, putting nine guys up in an inning, etc.
actual how long does it take the average mlb pitcher to deliver 3 pitches and how long does it take the average mlb batter to receive 3 pitches. (double/triple regress those babies to eliminate things like checking runners and joba’s inability to say yes to the pitch jorge calls, tex adjusting his nuts every time he’s on fox, etc)
then we’ll have a real number we can use.
i got two donuts that say the yanks AND sox both play faster, but its checking the runner, stolen bases, extra batters, extra pitches, extra fouls, pitcher changes and then the tv contract imposed insanity that causes the games to actually take longer.
It’s one thing to just criticize the teams, but it’s another to use language like “embarassing”, “disgrace”, and so forth. It makes the attacks seem like they’re grounded in a more personal kind of anger, the kind which you’d rather not have your supposedly impartial umpires exhibit. Will West start making calls against these teams because of their slow play when they’re not playing each other? Because then we have a problem. And what would happen if it were a player criticizing an umpire with these words?
Not allowing black players into the league for several decades was embarassing and disgraceful. This is just inconvenient.
/perspective’d
bingo.
I second this comment. It definitely calls into the question the objectivity an umpire can have when he comes out with such damning statements against two teams.
If I’m Theo and Cash, I’ve placed a call into MLB today and demanded that West not umpire another one of my games. Won’t happen, but I’d get the call on record.
Seriously.
Ballsy stance everybody. Disagreeing with discrimination.
In all seriousness, I agree. West made this into way too big a deal.
This was an excellent comment. +1
Nothing seems to get done though unless it goes public. Baseball has been talking about this behind closed doors for a number of years now, and there has been absolutely no improvement. It is time for a serious debate to take place in the public sphere and I am happy Joe West spoke up.
Is it an umpire’s place to do this, obviously not. But was it necessary, I think so. I doubt anything substantial comes of this, but I hope it does, and it is a step in the right direction.
In the interest of speeding up the games, the Yankees and Red Sox have been forced to sign, and start the following hackers:
Bengie Molina
Pedro Feliz
Yuniesky Betancourt
Jeff Francoeur
Jose Lopez
Aaron Rowand
Yunel Escobar
There will be a dispersal draft before the next Yankees-Sox series, in which the Sox will have the 1st pick. The Sox are required to pick up four of these 4 players, the Yankees only 3 because they already have serial-hacker Robinson Cano in the lineup. The Yankees, however, will have to pick up the salaries of all 7 players, because the mid-market Red Sox simply cannot afford it.
Sincerely,
Bud Selig
I’d take Pablo Sandoval. In the time it takes him to hit a double, Nick Johnson is just getting warmed up.
This is brilliant and I really think it would help baseball become popular again.
Other suggestions:
-Raise the mound
-Go to 4 balls, two strikes
-5 innings of play
-Old Hoss pitches all Boston games
-When a game is tied after nine innings, no more extra baseball. Just play footage of Selig throwing his hands up and call it a tie.
Lets go 21 outs instead of 27 bam, shorter game.
ietc
(Pedro Feliz was playing first for the Astros the other day. What in the world?!?!?!)
I’d like to point out one reason why Red Sox/Yankees games take longer. A large portion of Red Sox/Yankee games are nationally televised either on FOX or ESPN. All of these games have extended commercial breaks between innings adding roughly an extra 5 minutes onto the game (I am not sure if pitching changes are longer, if they are then the time is longer). This something entirely on the TV stations and Major League baseball, not the players (in fact, many of the players dislike the extended break).
Obviously, this is just a few minutes added to the average Yankee/Red Sox game, but it isn’t just the players fault.
In the end, I think Joe West’s claims are right.
Also, umpires are part of the game. And just like the playing surface, we really shouldn’t ever have a need to discuss them. If it/they become big issues, something has gone horribly wrong.
Or the foul poles are complaining about things that ARE NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS.
You agree that the Yankees and BoSox are pathetic and embaressing disgraces to baseball?
you got that from my post?
my bad.
let me remove some of the crap and repost:
Also, umpires…horribly wrong…complaining about things that ARE NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS.
best i could do with the words that were already there
Oh, I sort of only saw the first sentence and stopped reading, my bad.
(hangs head in shame)
What I found interesting was that even though the umps were trying to not call time for the batters the defensive players themselves stopped playing until the batter was set again so unless the umps start penalizing the defensive team they can’t really force the pitcher to throw. If they really want to speed things up (I’m not advocating this)instead of trying to police the batters stepping out they should just prohibit meetings on the mound (or limit it to one an inning) including when a picher is changed; just signal from the dugout and give a relief pitcher a set time (3 minutes or so) to get to the mound and finish his warm-ups otherwise ump calls ball 1.
Joe West should have been thrown out of baseball a long time ago. He is a terrible umpire and is known to bait players. If there is a disgrace it is he who is disgraceful. He should be thankful he is still getting a pay check because his firing has been a long time coming. Shut your pie hole Joe and let the 2 best teams in baseball play their game. Don’t be in such a rush to get to your favorite restaurant. You could use missing a few meals you fat tub of lard.
I don’t think Joe West cares what you or anybody thinks about Joe West.
Hey, West, the Yankees took Joba out of the rotation. What more do you want?!
Personally, I don’t give a crap how long games last. It’s not a key factor in my enjoyment of the game. Some 2 hour 40 minute games are dull while a 4 hour game could have me gripped on every pitch.
But enough about me. Are there really that many fans out there who are upset about the length of games? Is it affecting ticket sales and ratings across the leagues? I’d hazard a guess that it’s a big fat no. When the Yankees visit stadiums, you see attendance go up. (Especially in Baltimore and Miami.) I don’t think many people buying tickets for Yankee road games are inhibited by game time.
There are so many factors to game time that singling out hitters getting time seems overblown. It’s also a lot to ask for players who have been playing for years with lax time enforcement to fall in line in one game. For example: after having an entire career where he’s been allowed to step out, adjust hit batting gloves, and settle back in Jeter’s supposed to have all new habits ’cause Selig said so?
I can understand that the games takes a long time between the Yankees and the Sox, but considering that both their average team games both take over 3 hours is three and half hours that unreasonable. Both teams take a lot of pitches and there are a lot of pitching changes. The one big complaint about the series would be be all the timeouts which should be to the umpire to cut down on, but calling it disgraceful is just idiotic as last nights game was a very fun and competitive game throughout.
That’s a great point that I hadn’t seen yet.
The Red Sox and Yankees are the two biggest draws for opposing stadiums. People are showing up, advertisers are paying money, national TV networks want to show their games.
If you asked any baseball fan if they wanted to sit through a 2:15 Royals-Indians game or a 4:00 Sox-Yankees game, even those people who are sick and tired of hearing about the rivalry would still rather watch them play the longer game.
The only people it appears to really bother is the 350 lb umpires.
Wrong. It bothers me and I love baseball.
There are plenty of people out there for whom the length of games is an impediment in enjoying baseball. I’ve heard “baseball is boring” so many times that I’m sick of it. Certainly a 3-1 game that takes 3:20 to play is going to seem less exciting to the casual fan than if it took 2:30 like it probably would have 30 years ago. Same amount of apparent action in less time equals more “excitement”.
TV ratings might be better with shorter games. You’d almost certainly have more kids watching night games (or watching deeper into the game).
Is it worth making arbitrary rule changes to shorten the game? I don’t know – probably not.
I think we all know that the real issue at hand here is that Joe West gets grumpy if he doesn’t have a snack every 3 hours. Someone give that man some garlic fries!
Just look at the photo. He’s telling Andy about a burrito he is going to heat up after the game and licking his lips.
I posted on this a little while ago. I’m not sure if I can link it, so just click on my name if you want to read it.
The data does show that the games are taking longer per pitch than for other teams, and that Yankees-Red Sox from this weekend was particularly egregious. That said, it wasnt West’s place to say anything. Enforce the rules, and players will have to fall in line.
Agree on both counts:
-the relevant stat is time-per-pitch. Baseball can move the needle on that. # of pitches shouldn’t be part of this discussion.
-the umpire CAN move the needle on time-per-pitch. This umpired tried, but perhaps he can encourage pitchers to throw strikes when batters call time out, because he’s not granting time outs.
Also is an umpire wants a quicker game then he should have a bigger strike zone. As long as it is consistent the players won’t mind and it will quicken up the game. If people in baseball are legitamely concerned about length of game they should strongly consider re-raising the mound back to 16 inches and having a larger strike zone, but that is not going to happen so they should live with the rules put in place.
Yankee games last yr averaged 2:53 against everybody not named the Red Sox. So it’s clear that it’s only the Yankees/Sox games that are the problem (although I don’t agree it is a problem). And it makes sense, since they are the most patient teams and neither team wants to make a mistake with a pitch (more so that most other games). Every pitch matters and it just causes a more deliberate pace. Personally, I don’t mind at all when the games go long, assuming the quality of play is good. And it almost always is when these two teams meet up.
Wow. Do you have a source on that bit of data in the first sentence?
I did the match based on the numbers Ben gave in his post. All yankees games averaged 188 minutes. Sox games averaged 210 minutes. Multiply 210 * 18 games and you get 3,780 minutes. Subtract that from 30,456 (162*188) and you get 26,676. Divide that by 154….oh crap. I should have divided by 144. That means non Sox games avg 185 minutes. So 3:05 minutes per game. Thanks for asking. I was able to bust myself!!
Aight, that’s what I got.
Careful with the math. I did it per 9 innings because of extra-inning games. That 15-inning Yankees/Red Sox game skews the data. So the Yanks and Red Sox get through 9 innings of baseball in 3.48 hours — or 3 hours and 29 minutes more or less. That doesn’t mean they play games that quickly. There’s a subtle distinction that alters the calculation.
You sure that’s true? At 3:30 for 18 games is means the other 144 games would be at just over 3 hours. Unless I messed up the math
One thing I found really interesting throughout the playoffs last year (particularly in the ALCS and WS) was how often the Yankees’ catchers used multiple signs without a runner on 2nd. It barely got mentioned in the broadcasts, but it tells me that Girardi is concerned about sign stealing, beyond the scope of “gamesmanship.” There were plenty of visits to the mound when the pitcher and catcher wanted to clarify what was being thrown – then after Posada got back to the plate, Jeter would go to the mound to make sure he was in the loop, etc.
I honestly don’t recall the Yanks doing that this week, but Girardi strikes me as a dilligent guy who likes to proceed cautiously. We’ve all seen him make trips to the mound without pulling the pitcher. We’ve also seen him frequently go to the bullpen based on matchups. I suppose part of that is personnel-related.
Yankee (and Red Sox) games are so heavily scrutinzed that I can’t blame a batter for wanting to step out of the box to clear his head. Nor can I blame a pitcher for stepping off the rubber to scrape his spikes, or throw over to first. I’d rather the players take the time to keep themselves focused than just give away ABs or extra bases just for the sake of keeping the game under 3:00.
Of course the fact that the Yanks have multiple OBP threats plays the biggest role in game length.
I’m actually surprised more teams don’t look at the length of time it takes for the Yanks and Sox to play a game and use that as a model for their team. They are arguably the two best teams in the game, and they both play slowly… maybe there’s something worthwhile to their dilligence.
Give me a 4 hr Yankee game over a 2.5 hr Royals game any day of the week.
People thought the Phillies were stealing signs, hence the multiple signs and mound visits. It was a concern I heard in the NLDS and NLCS as well.
Clearly, Joe West should ump the Mets. Then, he’d seem something that is really embarrassing and a disgrace to baseball.
Then he’d have to deal with an extra 30 minutes per game of injury timeouts.
I’ll tell ya what. If I can prep the data within a decent amount of time this weekend (I think retrosheet has it), I’ll prep a regression analysis based on all of the possible factors that lead into game time. Regress game time on factors such as # of pitches, # of pitching changes, # of commercials, etc., and see if matchup has a strong stastistical effect.
I’ve already done things like this for the NFL.
That would be amazing.
Yes Pls Thanks in advance. And please add a dummy variable for Joe West’s crew. Just for fun.
Pretty sure Joe West just likes his name in the paper.
I don’t think it was his place to spout off about it and I think targeting the hitter’s occasional time outs when the pitcher holds the ball too long is a little silly. There are way too many factors at work to just target hitters and deny time outs, thinking this will improve game length.
Red Sox vs Yankees is one of MLB’s crown jewels of fan interest. It gets ratings. Everything is magnified, including the coverage. Speeding up those games shouldn’t be the object of focus, making them as entertaining as possible should be.
The next time Joe West is behind the plate with Mariano Rivera on the mound should be interesting.
The Yankees closer ripped the umpire after West criticized the Yankees and Red Sox over the pace of their games. West was the crew chief for this week’s series between the teams.
“It’s incredible,” Rivera told The Post. “If he has places to go, let him do something else. What does he want us to do, swing at balls?”
West made his comments to NorthJersey.com after Angel Hernandez refused several requests for time out by Derek Jeter and Jorge Posada working the plate Tuesday. Before Wednesday’s game, West told the newspaper the teams were “pathetic and embarrassing” and a “disgrace to baseball.”
Those comments did not go over well with Rivera.
“He has a job to do. He should do his job,” Rivera said. “We don’t want to play four-hour games but that’s what it takes. We respect and love the fans and do what we have to do and that’s play our game.”
http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/.....kIMoMHjiZP
If the good Mo has spoken, Joe had better fall in line or live in fear of a smiting.
Mo speaking up, you know he wasn’t happy.
dear lord I love Mariano Rivera. I suspect only someone like him or Jeter could get away with saying that. But good for him. We all know West is gonna get hit by a lightning bolt soon.
dear
lordMo, I love Mariano Rivera.Fixed.
ha ha! Thank you.
I can’t imagine the shame an ump must feel when he gets pwnd publicly by Mariano Rivera. Sorry, Joe West… You will now be remembered only as a punchline.
Joe West is an ass, ’nuff said. I’m not even going to bother to explain my side of the story.
Works for me.
I actually kinda agree with his sentiment here. The games are ridiculously long and I do indeed think something should be done about it.
I would personally be for drastic changes. I don’t think speeding up the little things is going to make that much of a difference. I know this is a fantasy here, and would never happen, and is almost blasphemy, but I would cut the game to 8 innings, maybe even 7. I would also make it an eight man batting order, completely eliminating the pitchers spot in the NL and DH in the AL, thus also evening the playing field between leagues, and making sure the best players still get their usual at bats in.
When baseball began, starting pitchers used to go all nine innings, maybe eight. As the game evolved, starters barely get through 6 and you need three other middle relievers to even get to your top reliever. Half of the middle relievers in MLB are not that talented and should not be major leaguers and/or pitching a lot of innings. Fans watch the game to see the top talent. Going a seven inning game will eliminate the need for shitty relief pitchers that nobody wants to see anyway. Top starters, straight to your top relievers. The game was not meant for 90 pitching changes consisting of talentless relievers that only get one or two outs an appearance.
Taking away the pitchers spot and the DH would kill two birds with one stone. One, it would have both leagues playing by the same rules which needs to happen. But that is a different issue. Two, it would still allow the hitters to get in their normal amount of at bats, thus not limiting guys to only 2-3 at bats per game.
My changes are drastic, maybe too far, but I really think something like this has to be done.
Maybe too far???
Yes, but I think having 9 inning games approach 4 hours go even further. It is really not acceptable.
Don’t get me wrong. I love baseball, and can endure (and I do mean endure) these four games, but it is really not how the game was meant to be played. There needs to be some rule adjusts to account for the “modern” game.
None of that “has to be done.” Baseball is extremely popular and makes more money today than at any other point in its history. It’s not like nobody is going to ballparks and the sport is dying, all because people don’t like the length of the games.
True.
It should be done. In my opinion of course. I’m expecting about nobody to agree with me here.
Yeah, I think that’s probably true. I don’t mean any offense or anything, I just think those ideas are massive overreactions to a problem that doesn’t really exist. The game is insanely popular.
It would take a lot to offend me and that also goes for people that actually know me beyond a messageboard handle.
But you are correct in that I don’t necessarily think my changes are needed for the popularity of the game. They are basically my own selfish ideas for how the game would be perfect for me.
Quite simply, three hour games are too long (for me). Four hour games are straight insanity inducing (for me). The only thing I can envision that would cut about a half hour off the game is to eliminate an inning or two. I don’t “trying to speed up the tempo” is really going to make much of difference or a difference at all.
That was a bad joke, right? Right? … Right?
I hate to agree with Joe West but I think that speeding up the pace of baseball games would go a long way towards boosting national interest in the sport. The number one complaint I hear from people who have lost interest in baseball is that the games move too slow. They could maybe try adding a delay of game clock like they have inbetween plays in football.
Raise the mound and make the strike zone bigger would both go a long way and probably cut the time of the games about 10-20 minutes which is quite a lot.
Taking away offense is not the answer though. Fans are attracted to offense, not 1-0 pitchers duels. I like your ideas, and it would speed the game up, but I don’t think that is the way to go, especially if you are trying to attract interest to the sport.
The problem with a delay of game clock is who would be penalized for it going over, because both the pitcher and hitter could be to blame. For example, if the clock is 10 seconds and the batter steps out 3 seconds in and comes back in with 2 seconds left, the pitcher is forced to throw it right away. If the pitcher doesn’t throw in time, then who get penalized, because both wasted 5 seconds. Also, a delay of game clock would make it very easy to steal (pitchers couldn’t throw over enough and runners could easily know when the pitcher is going to throw home and go on first movement).
Also, the delay of game clock only works in football, because the network can cut to replay of the previous play while the offense is in the huddle. Each pitch is probably not a replay worthy event like every football play.
You tell him Mo.
To merge two threads:
This is a $1.6 bajillion dollar enterprise. I’m sure that’s a fact not lost on Girardi when he takes a trip to the mound, or ‘overmanages’ a key batter/pitcher combination.
“an average major league game lasts around 2:52 while the Yankees play games that average 3:08 and the Sox 3:04″
OMG an extra 16 minutes!?!?!
Even three hours is too long though. 9 inning games should average 2 hours 30 minutes in my opinion.
Maybe everyone likes the three hour games but me, but they are unnecessarily long. All of baseball needs to have quicker games. And if games average 2:30 across baseball, the Yanks would still be approaching three hour games anyway.
That means every half inning “should” take 8 minutes?
What does a saved 30 minutes between 10:30 and 11 at night do for you?
I mis wrote there.
I meant “entire games” should take about 2:30, not 9 inning games. I propose cutting an inning or two off a game. 7 or 8 inning games.
The extra half hour does make a difference to me.
Sarcasm?
hahah. I knew this would be completely out there.
Not sarcasm. I really would propose cutting an inning or two off the game. 7 or 8 innings is enough, in all seriousness.
And like I wrote in my post above, I realize that this is basically blasphemy.
Joe West has a point even if he made an ass of himself making it. It is pretty ridiculous that hitters have to step out of the box and adjust their gear every single pitch. The league tried to crack down on this a number of years ago by enforcing the rule that says the hitter has to keep one foot in the box but enforcement fell off pretty early on.
This might be a case where baseball should enforce a much more strict rule in the minor leagues where the players have little power to argue. Then as the major league rosters turn over there would be less resistance to enforcement at the big league level.
It is pretty ridiculous that hitters have to step out of the box and adjust their gear every single pitch.
Agreed, but that’s all 30 teams, not just the Yankees and Sox. He specifically took shots at them.
Probably because he knew it would get press time. If it was after a Royals-A’s game, or just a general statement, people would have brushed it off. But to take a shot at the teams that play in the #1 and #13 media markets gets his point, or Selig’s point, or whoever, more press time.
“It is pretty ridiculous that hitters have to step out of the box and adjust their gear every single pitch”
It’s ridiculous that players want to have their equipment perfect when trying to do their job? Sure guys shouldnt walk around to do so, but alot of guys dont.
This is all just nitpicking.
Sigh, of course once again “Country” Joe West is trying to get his name in the paper. This lard ass is always trying to be bigger than the game. Maybe games would be shorter if he would called them consistently or if he didnt bait players/managers into arguements. Those arguements can halt play for a long time too.
I agree with everyone else in that he should just shut up and be thankful that he still has a job. I’ve see previous posters talk about Joe, Angel Hernandez, and even CB Bucknor to name a few. The fact that we know these guys by name tells us everything we need to know about their umpiring skills.
“Umpires should be seen and not heard.”
/Baseball Gods’d
I have watched the yankees play a bunch of teams, and watched a ton of other games as well. And right now, all of the things that the Yankees do that could feasibly be corrected (taking a while between pitches, fiddling with gloves, etc. etc) are done just as much by other teams. So if you’re going to correct those things then you have to enforce the new rules across the board. So you’d still wind up with the Yanks and Sox playing the longest games, and playing much much longer games when they play each other.
Both the Yankees and the Sox take a ton of pitches, get on base a lot, and just in general don’t make many outs relative to the rest of the league. Outs are essentially the “clock” of baseball, and the two teams that make them at the lowest rates are bound to play the longest games. Neither MLB nor Joe West should ever ever EVER have any control over this.
Also, JoeG makes a ton of pitching changes with the bullpen, which takes a long time. It is a style that he has been using throughout his tenure, and to excellent general effectiveness. This is also something that neither the umpires nor MLB should EVER have any say over either.
Sure, players stepping out the box adds time. But A) not that much, and B) no more than it does for every other team, since every other team does the same thing.
Nick Johnson should be banned from baseball.
IETC.
same.
as did I.
If people are complaining about times of baseball games then stop watching baseball and watch a game that has a clock like hockey, basketball, or football. That’s the purity of baseball, it’s timeless. A clock doesn’t just run out, the team has to deserve to win by getting at least 27 outs.
THIS.
If an extra 30 minutes is so important that it ruins your life when you watch baseball, then maybe our priorities arent in the right order.
I also have a problem with the length of these games. It’s been months since I’ve watched baseball, and I’m out of practice. I typically don’t show up at a bar at 7:00 and drink for 4 hours straight anymore. I keep getting accidentally trashed and feel like shit the next day.
You know you can get a TV at your house/apartment/dorm, too?
What West said is what MLB had been saying since the days of Ubberoth(?). Regardless of whether hes a fat ass or not in not in question. Fans have been saying that baseball games at times become very dragged out and unnecessarily lengthy. Look at the All Star games a couple of years ago when the Commish called the game and it ended in a tie. Why? TOOOO LOOOOONNNNGGGGGG. Should Joe havee expressed that out loud? Ehhh probably not, but he’s got enough years where he can say it, get a little talking to from the Commish’s office and keep it moving.
I umpire on the college (Div. !) level. When my two “star teams” start dragging, anything between the dugouts ad nose and toes is a strike. And antoher point to concern yourself with is “The Commioner’s Office instructed them (umpires) to speed the games up” so you can’t very well penalize the person you told to do it when he does it, penalizing for doing it because your office starts getting callls. Bud is the weakness most jellyfish back Commissioner in the office ever. But it is what it is ladies and gentlemen….it is…what it is.
is it?
With all due respect, your job is to call a proper strike zone, regardless of whether the teams are dragging on or not. By not doing so, you’re doing a shitty job.
If there’s something the teams are doing that is against the rules, you enforce the rules within your power. Calling pitch-outs strikes serves no justice to anyone.
Regarding Selig: Yes, the initiative to speed up the games originates with his office. This is ultimately his fault. But beyond that, West can certainly be penalized for the things he said, which were not constructive and blurs the possibility of there being impartiality and objectivity. That’s a punishable offense.
Co-sign on all of this, well said.
Do: Enforce the rules and do your job. Don’t: Change the rules because you think the game is taking too long or make public statements calling out particular teams for doing nothing against the rules.
Rules? The rules say players can’t call timeout. Only the umpire can. So it’s completely within the umpire’s discretion whether the player should be allowed to have timeout to step out of the box and adjust his crotch, batting gloves, and do the exaggerated eye blink thing that Posada and Pedroia do.
The games take too long. Way too long. Most of you guys have no idea about this, because you didn’t watch baseball games in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, when games averaged just a bit over 2 hours, instead of a bit under 3.
W. Clark,
I can see your point to make teams move the game but by enlarging the strike zone you are violating the rules.
If a pitcher alters the baseball he gets ejected so why should an umpire be allowed to break the rules?
Doesn’t that effect you integrity?
how about they cut the time between innings by 30-45 seconds and save 10+ minutes that way.
For a Yanks -Sox game just increase the price of commercial time.
Poor Joe. Having to wait almost 4 hours for his donut fix must have been tough. Two of the premier teams in the league played a great hard fought series to open the season which was anything but a disgrace to the game. That double chin Joe’s sporting on the other hand…
Yankee/Red Sox games do take too long. However, I think there are a few points that aren’t addressed.
1. Oftentimes, these games are on ESPN or Fox. Maybe it’s just me, but those games always seem to take a little longer. There’s extra things going on that seem to slow it down. I might be imagining it, but it seems that way to me.
2. The Yankees average 16 extra minutes and the Red Sox average 12, right? How much of that is simply because both teams have very patient hitters who see a lot of pitches and have for a long time?
3. I imagine one or two pitchers can have an effect. When you have, say, Andy Pettitte and John Lackey dealing like they were last night, it’ll go quick (and I’d say 3 hours and 20ish minutes is pretty good for a 10 inning game). When AJ Burnett loses his fastball command, pull up a chair, we’ll be here all night.
I forget which book it was in, but I read something saying one way to shave some time off would be doing something about the “entrance music”. A lot of guys wait til their song starts before they even start moving to the plate. It’s not going to shave a half hour off a game, but a few minutes, sure.
He has some solid points that shouldn’t be ignored, but I hate that he called out specific teams, calling them pathetic. Do I think Joe West will intentionally call things differently for those teams, no, I don’t, but subconsciously anyone might call things differently if they have a particular feeling about a team. Look at it this way. I believe I’m fair, and I’m sure everyone else here does too. But when there’s a really close play at first, don’t you instinctively get annoyed if the call goes against the Yankees? My first reaction is always “Come on, he was safe!” (or out if that’s the case). I’ll gladly admit my error when I see the replay, but my initial reaction is effected because I’m rooting for the Yankees. Umpires don’t have the benefit of watching a replay and have to make that quick call.
How bout they don’t start yankees-sox games at 8…
Agreed. I have much more of a problem with games starting and, thus, ending so late, than I do with them being a little long.
Why does Posada call time outs, does he need to take a leak on his hands between pitches?!
http://sadtrombone.com/
http://images.icanhascheezburg.....689921.jpg
Aw, PUPPY! You have found my soft-spot, Andy. Let’s keep that between us.
Deal, I’m off to use the brass section on some lamers attempted wanking gag!
It would be nice if some of the posters on this site could discuss the issue without resorting to ad hominem comments. Joe West’s size has no bearing on the validity of his comments, nor (as Ben’s story points out) does his strike zone. And if he likes to see his name in the papers, well, that too is irrelevant. The question is, are the games too long? And if so, can anything be done about it?
The question of whether the games are too long is a matter of opinion. I’m solidly in the camp that games are too long. I haven’t watched a regular season game from first pitch to last for years. I read four Yankee sites a day and love following the team, but I have no interest in watching pitchers walk around the mound or batters step out of the box time after time. But that’s me. If somebody else wants to spend 3:30 watching a game that’s fine, and if 80% of the fans are happy with it, then I guess it will stay that way. I realize there is an entire generation out there that thinks 3+ hour games are normal, and has never known anything else. But personally I don’t think they are at all necessary.
Obviously I have no problem with the parts of the game that are actually baseball: working counts, pitching changes, scoring more runs, whatever. Mo’s question (“What does he want us to do? Swing at balls?”) is a straw man argument. Obviously West never said that, so Mo’s comment completely sidesteps the point. It’s easy to make yourself look correct if you’re allowed to put words in the other guy’s mouth. Mo is a great relief pitcher, but he’s not a logician.
So… how could time be saved? Several people have commented on the matter of adjusting batting gloves after every pitch. IMO, that is a ridiculous waste of time. What happened while you were in the batter’s box a few seconds ago? The velcro slipped a millionth of an inch? And now you can’t hit the ball? Clearly it is a psychological thing, a crutch, and if it was done away with the players would adjust. If Ted Williams and Yogi Berra could stand in the batter’s box and hit, so could today’s players. Man up. Stand in there and hit the ball.
And contrary to what several people have said, that time can add up. How many pitches are there in a game? 300? If batters step out 120 times (I’m guessing here; if I’m wrong feel free to correct me) at perhaps 10 seconds per time, that’s 20 minutes that could be saved. It’s a start.
Another non-baseball time-waster is the endless commercials, but that’s where we get reminded that baseball is a business first, and a sport second. I’d love to see something done about it, but I’d also like to see world peace.
Final point: The best game ever played (Game 7, 1960 World Series) had 71 at-bats, 24 hits, and 19 runs scored, and only took 2 hours and 36 minutes. So forget the arguments about how Yankees – Red Sox games have more men on base. Totally irrelevant. Ask yourself, what has changed to add 40 or more minutes onto every game? Answer: Once upon a time the players actually got on with it and played the game.
Maybe if the pitchers had taken a bit more time they would have performed better in that game.
The use of the words “pathetic” and “embarrassing” absolutely make me furious, and are out of bounds to the point Joe West should be suspended. PERIOD. And if he demonstrably calls Mo differently after this, he should be fired.
The last time I was “embarrassed” watching a ball game was here:
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play......id=7078739
One of his honored colleague’s. Or Marty Foster’s gem:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4309843
Institutionalized sloppy umpiring is far more pathetic than a four hour game.
/Apologies for the rant. I just think that’s a lot of ****ing nerve.
Joe West should be fired, He has always sucked as an Ump and holds Grudges, There is no way he can be impartial when it comes to doing Yankee or Red Sox games. Both Mariano and Curt Schilling is correct in calling out West
This is insanely hypocritical of West and MLB. MLB loves Yankees-Sox so much that they put them on every national game they can. Longer commercial breaks and more pomp and circumstance. MLB doesn’t care then. However, when a batter dares step out of the box it’s a huge deal. Insane.
The position taken by West is a “disgrace to baseball”.
This is baseball at it best and what he is worried about is “time”.
The appreciation of true fans of the game come from the intricacies of the game, the amazingly smart choices by the players of both these teams make, their infinite patience and strategies involved in pitching.
Maybe West should be demoted to little league games, so that he can go back to his country music sooner and more importantly spare us the bull.
Yeah, he’s right though the games take too long.
Hah, an ump complaining about the players, that’s rich.
All baseball games take too long, not just Yankee games. It is a problem. It’s a big problem. It’s also foolish and short sighted to look at modern baseball attendance and TV money and conclude there’s no problem. Baseball has a core of very loyal fans, but new fans to the game, kids, and broad national appeal, are very poor for baseball relative to football. Baseball could be in serious trouble in 15-20 years if they don’t address important issues concerning the overall appeal of the game as a spectator sport. And the pace of play has alot to do with baseball’s overall appeal.
They shouldn’t grant timeout just because the pitcher and catcher can’t get the signs right. They shouldn’t give a batter time out any time he wants. Get in the batter’s box, and stay there. Don’t step out between pitches. There are many, many other things which slow games down, but this – repeated timeouts and stepping out of the box – is one of them, and it is needless.
The players need to shut up and play baseball.
Please also remember this: “Cowboy” was a National League umpire, and prefers the style of play resulting from the weak bottom third of the order in the NL due to the pitcher batting.
Taking pitches in the NL doesn’t have the same benefit as the AL, with its potential for true 9 man line-ups.
With more “automatic” outs regulating the “clock” of 27 (the #8 is usually a glove man), there are fewer true scoring opportunities when hitters 3-4-5-6 bat, and they have to make their ABs count.