Jul
25

Open Thread: Busy afternoon

By

"Wait ... for Joe Saunders?!?" (AP Photo/Kathy Willens)

There’s been some breaking news within the last hour or so, so let’s round it up here:

So there you go. Talk about that stuff, or whatever else you want in this open thread. The ESPN Sunday Night Game features the Cardinals and Cubs (Carpenter vs. Dempster), about the 13th consecutive week the 45-53 Cubs have appeared in the Sunday night game (or is it just me?). Have fun.

Categories : Open Thread

164 Comments»

  1. Jobamania says:

    joaquin?
    isnt that arias?

    i think you mean joakim

  2. * The Angels acquired Dan Haren.
    * Alex Rodriguez left today’s game after hit by a pitch in the forearm/wrist.
    * The Yankees made a “big proposal” for Joakim Soria.
    * Al Aceves will join the team for the upcoming road trip.
    * Curtis Granderson hit two beautiful homers.

    Fixed.

  3. rebecca from phone says:

    I am the ptbnl

  4. ZZ says:

    I would give up a better package of players for Soria than I would for Haren.

    • Jobamania says:

      not sure about that, but i would definitely like soria more than haren in terms of what i feel his performance will be and how much we need him

    • Bryan says:

      I’d start with Joba then add one or two additional prospects.

      I have no clue if this would be enough to get it done however.

    • I get the wisdom of that only if you believe that it’s harder to acquire a reliever of Soria’s caliber than it is to acquire a starter of Haren’s caliber.

      I disagree, though. Starters are always more valuable and desirable than relievers, and trading useful parts for relievers (even excellent ones) isn’t wise, you’re better off accumulating multiple elite young arms and making your own elite reliever internally.

      I’d rather have good starters and bad relievers than vice versa.

      FWIW:
      Dan Haren, career WAR: 29.2
      Joakim Soria, career WAR: 6.8

      • Angelo says:

        Pretty much. I wouldn’t expect ZZ to say that.

      • ZZ says:

        I don’t find the calculus to be the same when it comes to the Yankees.

        I have said it a few times on here, but I think “WAR” has very little meaning to the Yankees. The value most players have to them is dramatically different than it is to other teams.

        Back end relievers are much more valuable to the Yankees than most teams because they are basically in the playoffs every year.

        In a way the playoffs are kind of the “real” or second season for the Yankees and it is hard to put a concrete number on the value a player provides during that time.

        Soria has proved to be one of the few non-volatile relievers and has the stuff/control to back it up. His contract is very team friendly of course is a huge plus as well.

        There is also the opportunity cost if Soria is available now. There are very few reliable relievers like Soria out there, so “passing” on him is costly due to the alternatives.

        Haren on the other hand has some red flags like his performance this year and his 2nd half struggles. Also, his contract while pretty good for a SP is not cheap.

        The Yankees as presently constructed, with future FA considerations, and their farm system IMO would have a much easier time of “replacing” Haren.

        With all the considerations, while theoretically Haren is more “valuable,” I think Soria is more valuable to this team.

  5. Chapman says:

    The Soria report reeks of a Jon Heyman fabrication, no one else is reporting it, he is way off all the time.

  6. Pat D says:

    I’m going to spend the rest of the night ignoring baseball because I’m so pissed off about the Yankees getting jerked around twice, with a week left to go in this insanity.

    In good news, Boston lost. Ha! They’re becoming irrelevant fast, and I hope the Angels win 2 of 3.

  7. EndlessMike says:

    I was always a Joba supporter and still believe he can be a great reliever.But it’s two weeks of triple A for him.It’s obvious he has a mental problem.

    Either fix Joba or trade him.There’s no way he heads back to the rotation at anytime.

  8. Grandy says:

    Next on the rumor mill: Soria and Greinke to the Yankees. Ha. While I wouldn’t mind that, I don’t think it’s possible. I wonder what Cash’s next move is.

  9. Ross in Jersey says:

    Sox lose again. Maybe if this turns into a two team race, we don’t need that extra starter after all.

    • Evan3457 says:

      Bingo.

      And because of the day off on the 5th, Yanks can, if they want, skip over the Mitre/Moseley/Gaudin/Nova/Whosis spot in the rotation against both the Rays and Red Sox (after they finish up with Cleveland).

      Indians: Vazquez, CC, AJ, Mitre
      Rays: Hughes, Vazquez, CC
      Jays: AJ, Mitre, Hughes
      Red Sox: Vazquez, CC, AJ, Hughes

      At the time the Sox series ends, Andy will have been out for 3 weeks, and the Mitre mess gets maybe only one more start before Andy’s ready to return. It will be against Texas, however (ugh). In Arlington (cringes involuntarily).

      By that point in time, Andy will have been out for

  10. Johan Iz My Brohan says:

    I would have liked Haren, but the Angels need him a lot more than we do.

    Now who do we want to play in October? The Angels or the Rangers?

    • Bryan says:

      Texas no question.

    • Ross in Jersey says:

      The Angels. The Rangers have a way better offense and bullpen. Angels rotation is pretty good now, but the Yankees have good numbers against a lot of them.

    • Tom Zig says:

      We wont be playing either of them. We’ll draw the ALC team and the Rays/Red Sox will draw the ALW team. We’ll win the ALDS and so will the Rays/Red Sox to set up an epic ALCS showdown.

      • We wont be playing either of them. We’ll draw the ALC team and the Rays/Red Sox will draw the ALW team. We’ll win the ALDS and so will the Rays/Red Sox to set up an epic ALCS showdown.

        That’s right, I’m writing them off right now. Book it. That squad is a dead team walking.

        • Ross in Jersey says:

          You mean Victor “should be a DH/1b” Martinez and Dustin “overrated” Pedroia coming back won’t immediately make them gain 8 games in the standings? Surely you jest.

          • Pete says:

            Be fair; Pedroia is an excellent 2B. Probably the third best in the game right now, behind Utley and Cano. The dude has a .381 wOBA and a +6 UZR this year.

            • Be fair; Pedroia is an excellent 2B. Probably the third best in the game right now, behind Utley and Cano.

              That’s not praise of Pedroia, it’s damnation of the rest of the 2Bs in the league.

              And yes, Dustin Pedroia is the third best second baseman in baseball, but he’s also overrated. Those statements aren’t mutually exclusive.

              Both he and Ian Kinsler are a clear and large step below Utley and Cano, but they both get mentioned in the same breath thanks to their ridiculously inflated home splits in their Mickey Mouse ballparks.

              • Angelo says:

                Mickey Mouse ballparks.

                How the hell did you even think about this? IETC

              • Bryan says:

                Pedroia is one of the most overrated players in baseball. He had a good 2008 season, but he only won MVP because there weren’t any other clear cut candidates. His 2009 was average, and 2010 appears to be the same.

                • Angelo says:

                  Dustin Pedroia’s WAR (according to fangraphs) over the passed 3 seasons:

                  2008: 6.6 WAR
                  2009: 5.0 WAR
                  2010: 3.4 WAR (so far)

                  He’s been a very good player.

                    • Mike Pop says:

                      Not meh. He’s been outstanding, if you live by the WAR, you die by the WAR. That’s what people seem to do here.

                      ;)

                    • Angelo says:

                      How is that “meh.” It seems like you’re greatly underrating Pedroia. An All-Star calibur player is around 4.0 WAR.

                    • Angelo says:

                      I don’t live and die by WAR, but to say Pedroia is a very overrated player seems a bit absurd.

                      I was using WAR to make a point. There are other stats that you can use to make similar points.

                      However, no one else is using information to prove Pedroia is “very overrated.”

                    • Bryan says:

                      I know WAR. I was saying that as more of a “whatever”.

                  • JobaWockeeZ says:

                    I can guarantee if Pedroia got traded to a team like the Mets he would not produce a WAR as high as that with his .700 career OPS away. He probably got a huge ass boost in value for being a good defensive second baseman in a position where everyone else sucks asides from tier 1.

                    He’s good but not great.

                    • Angelo says:

                      Yeah, I can agree with this. He’s a pretty good player. Fenway definitely boosts his stats though.

                    • JobaWockeeZ says:

                      .775 OPS. Point still stands, his offensive production is helped greatly by Fenway.

                      Above average hitting (mainly helped from Fenway) + good defense + playing a non-deep position = high WAR.

                    • Angelo says:

                      Once again I agree. Although you can’t blame him or anyone else for positions like shortstop, secondbase, and catcher not being deep.

                      I don’t love Pedroia by the way. I was just defending the fact that he’s better than an average player.

                    • Jose the Satirist says:

                      For the record the wRAA that is used to calculate WAR is park-adjusted. So even though the OPS split is large, the split of his WAR at home vs away isn’t as big. (Albeit still present)

                    • Jose the Satirist says:

                      Upon further inspection, he still gets a boost from Fenway even after park-adjustment. 134 wRC+ to 104 wRC+. Ignore my previous post.

                  • Ross in Jersey says:

                    We all know Pedroia is an excellent. That’s not specifically what I was talking about when I said he was “overrated”.

                    I was talking mainly how he’s been given superstar status because he’s small yet good. If A-rod took ground balls in a cast, he’d be universally panned as an attention-whoring prick. Dustin does it, and it’s “funny” “cute” and because he’s “determined to get back on the field”.

                    It’s a joke. He’s a good second basemen, but he’s not even the 2nd best player on his own team. In that regard, he is very much overrated.

                    • Angelo says:

                      http://riveraveblues.com/2010/.....ent-989741

                      Yeah I agree with you. I said this in a different reply to you. I was responding to Bryan’s comments, which were different from yours.

                    • JobaWockeeZ says:

                      I find him very overrated for winning an MVP in a down year when he shouldn’t have won and because of that everyone treats him as a big superstar who’s among the best of baseball next to like Miguel, Pujols, A-Rod, Longoria, Teix and more. I mean the dude never posted an OPS at or over 900. His MVP season is at .870!

                      I mean he’s a very good player but very overrated too. His bat isn’t a Miguel, or a Teix.

                      He’s not.

                    • bexarama says:

                      He’s a good second basemen, but he’s not even the 2nd best player on his own team. In that regard, he is very much overrated.

                      I agree with the rest of this, but this statement is just kinda silly to me (as is whenever this argument shows up). It’s not Pedroia’s fault Youk and Lester are like really really good, and it doesn’t mean he’s not good himself.

                    • Angelo says:

                      He didn’t deserve to win the MVP award, but you also have to consider positional adjustment. Although he’s didn’t OPS over .900 in his MVP year, each position should be looked at differently.

                      Plenty of firstbasemens are capable of a .900 OPS, but there aren’t many secondbasemen you can say that about. Cano this year and Utley. That’s all I can think of.

                      So comparing him to Tex or Miguel is a bit off.

          • Angelo says:

            Ah, to be fair, Pedroia is a very good player. The MSM are in love with him though.

            Otherwise, I agree with your sarcasm.

        • Mike Axisa says:

          Ben and I were just talking about the Sox becoming sellers, but who do they have to sell? Beltre, sure. But who else?

    • MikeD says:

      I don’t see the Angels overtaking the Rangers this year, even with the addition of Haren. All that does is counter the Rangers’ move to get Lee, who is a better pitcher.

      Haren gives the Angels a potential front-end pitcher now to replace Lackey and build on the next few years.

      I’m not writing the Angels off this year, but the Angels didn’t make this move just for 2010.

  11. Pasqua says:

    Is Soria a Boras client? Because if he is, then we know why Heyman is “reporting” this.

  12. Tom Zig says:

    Matsuzaka with 5 Walks vs the Mariners? Yeesh.

  13. ShuutoHeat (GGBG > Crawford) says:

    Taken from MLBTR regarding the pieces LAA are ponying up for Haren:

    “Corbin, who turned 21 on Monday, is a lefthander with “much of his value tied to the development of his fastball”, according to Baseball America’s Prospect Handbook. At six-foot, three-inches, the super-athletic hurler can dunk a basketball without a running start.”

    Okay I have no info on Patrick Corbin, but I’m SURE the DBacks were impressed by the fact that he could dunk without using a running start.

  14. Teix is the man says:

    If anybody was at fridays game and knows Gardners walk up song, I would greatly appreciate it. I looked on google and couldn’t find it.

    • Kit says:

      I wasn’t at the game and didn’t catch the AB music, so unless he changed his, I think it’s still “Run Like Hell” by Pink Floyd. I could be wrong though.

  15. My favorite moment of today’s game was Joba giving up that jimmy-jack to punchless Scot Podsednik.

    I’m rooting for Joba to get lit up over the next week and be so bad that the team is forced to demote him. It’s the only way to really fix him.

  16. Billy says:

    You think the main reason we did’nt get Haren was because of Cashman not wanting to take on the contract because it will hinder our chances at getting Cliff Lee?

  17. Mike Pop says:

    Haren’s fantasy value increases by a large amount moving to LAA right?

    • Ross in Jersey says:

      The Angels bullpen is nothing to write home about, but it’s a lot better than zona’s. The Angels home park is a lot harder to hit homers in too, especially from the right side. That should help him.

    • pat says:

      He’ll probably get more run support, but he goes from an OF of Young (3.1 UZR) Upton (5.7) and Parra (6.8) to Hunter (-.4) Comadulce(-7.0), and Rivera/Matsui (.5/terrible)

      For a flyball pitcher, that could be kinda bad.

  18. That’s where Granderson comes into play. The Yankees could have Austin Jackson at low cost right now, a valuable lefty reliever in Phil Coke, and Ian Kennedy over Sergio Mitre making starts in Andy Pettitte‘s absence. The money owed to Granderson could easily be earmarked for Haren, plus the pieces you traded to Detroit might be enough to get Haren here without giving up the beloved Joba Chamberlain. To top it off, perhaps we wouldn’t have to speculate about Lee or Haren, rather make it Lee and Haren.

    http://nybaseballdigest.com/?p=28012

    Interesting take by Mike. While I would call him an albatross just yet, you have to winder if the Yanks would have been more aggressive with Haren had they not made the Grandy deal, with the effects it would have had in their 2010 (and beyond) payroll.

  19. Carlosologist says:

    Now that the Haren thing is done, who should the Yanks go after for a relief role? I’m thinking D.J. Carrasco. He has a 7.6 K/9 and a 3.6 BB/9 and a WHIP of 1.299. He’s been pretty consistent appearance to appearance aside from a few blips early in the season.

  20. Someone offered me Corey Hart and Chris Carpenter for Matt Kemp and Javier Vazquez.

    Hart looks like he won’t need a DL trip with just a bruise on his thumb.

    Is upgrading from Vazquez to Carpenter worth trading Kemp in a keeper league?

  21. Ross in Jersey says:

    Nova having another great start tonight. How committed are the Yankees to giving Mitre another shot?

    • pat says:

      Hopefully not very.

    • MikeD says:

      It’s possible the Yankees didn’t want to bring Nova up while he was a potential piece in the Haren deal. If he got lit up, it might have hurt his value. While he also might have pitched great, the Yankees may not have wanted to take that risk. My guess is they give Mitre one more shot. If he sucks, Nova is called up post the July 31 trade deadline if he’s still a Yankee.

  22. Jose the Satirist says:

    To one of the RABbis: Did you ever announce who won that 4th of July contest?

  23. Mike Pop says:

    Keeper league – get to keep 10 at the end of the year.

    C – Miguel Montero
    1B- Matt LaPorta
    2B – Ben Zobrist
    3B – Evan Longoria
    SS – Alex Gonzalez
    CI – Gordon Beckham
    MI – Ryan Theriot
    OF – Swisher
    OF – Gardner
    OF – J.D. Drew
    OF – Drew Stubbs
    OF – Luke Scott
    UTI – Pedro Alvarez
    UTI – Jack Cust
    DL – Grady Sizemore
    DL – Troy Tulowitzki

    P – Josh Johnson
    P – Dan Haren
    P – Phil Hughes
    P – Jonathan Sanchez
    P – Madison Bumgarner
    P – Matt Garza
    P – Brett Anderson
    P – C.J. Wilson

    I figure Josh Johnson, Dan Haren, Hughes, Anderson, Longoria, Tulowitzki, Jonathan Sanchez, Bumgarner, Alvarez, and either Gardner, Sizemore, or Zobrist for the last spot. Torn on that. Anyone want to help me out?

  24. poster on another computer who happens to be a deuce bag says:

    Let’s just clear the air right now. What do you guys think a deal for Soria would take? Do you see it potentially ocurring?

    • Ross in Jersey says:

      I’d say no. He’s under team control at a reasonable salary for too long and is too good to come cheap. I would imagine any buyer would be too scared of his injury history to give up the package it would take to get him.

      • Steve H says:

        Agreed. The overpay would be tremendous.

      • A.D. says:

        Flip side is that KC really has no need for a closer when they’re not even close to contention, and a lot of their farm talent is in AA or lower, so getting a couple of cost controlled starters that will be in the rotation when that talent comes up is far more useful for their organization then a closer that will hit free agency when the core is coming together.

        • Steve H says:

          The cost shouldn’t be prohibitive based on your points, but it still will be. Part of the reason that franchise is a disaster is because they repeatedly make bad decisions.

  25. nsalem says:

    KC would ask for something like Joba Robertson and one of the three catchers which I do’t think Cashman would do. prospects are chips to be saved for a rainy day Soria would be great but do we really need him considering that we will probably be having Phil fill what would be that role (setup) in the playoffs. I think that today was the tipping point for Joba and Robertson will get the call next time we are a run or two ahead in the eighth. Also I believe prospects are chips that should be saved for a really rainy day (yes it was really rainy today),
    but i mean a situation if say the news was alot worse on Arod today. He was lost for the season and we needed a good 3rd base man fast. Guys like Soria and Haren are luxuries not necessities.

  26. Frigidevil says:

    So I finally saw Anchorman for the first time. And now I appreciate RAB so much more.

  27. Ross in Jersey says:

    “We achieved by maintaining major league quality with a 2008 All-Star in Joe Saunders and a guy who quite frankly has been one of the winners in Major League Baseball. I think he trails only Roy Halladay among major leaguers in total wins. He’s won 63 percent of his games since coming to the major leagues, pitched in the postseason on two different occasions. He’s a quality, durable, steady major league starter. We feel like this club needs that, and a guy with a good deal of playoff experience.”

    What the fuck is Jerry Dipoto smoking? WINS GUYS, ITS ALL THAT MATTERS

    • Carlosologist says:

      What the fuck? Link please. Arizona was pretty dumb for firing Josh Byrnes, now they look like fucking idiots for putting this guy in his place.

    • I know his wins-based-rationale is dumb, but I totally get the Saunders acquisition for Arizona. DiPoto’s right for the wrong reasons.

      Think of it this way: Saunders is like an AAA org guy. He’s like Jon Van Benschoten or Eric Bruntlett, he’s the veteran who’s there to take the pressure off the developing kids by playing quality baseball and teaching the others how to be a professional. And he’s a guy that’s not going to be amazing, but he’s going to keep you in ballgames and get you some victories so your team isn’t the losingest outfit in the league.

      The D-Bags are basically treading water until Parker/Borchering are ready to join their young core. Saunders is a nice stopgap to take one of the 5 rotation spots at a reasonable salary until they can reload for contention again, and he keeps you from needing to overpay someone else on the FA market.

      • Ross in Jersey says:

        I really think that’s all completely irrelevant. They could have gotten more than Saunders from almost every other major league club. Saunders isn’t even worth the 6m he’d make in arb next year. They gave up a good-to-great pitcher and got practically nothing in return. It made zero sense.

        • Mister Delaware says:

          If they’re serious about a $60MM payroll, handing over 10% of it to a mediocre pitcher is a pretty good way to assure some high picks. Maybe Dipoto is banking on one of the truly awful GMs to flip him a good prospect or two for all those wins in the offseason.

  28. RAB is loco ese says:

    funny thing happened on the way to the toilet. I found out the Angels acquired Haren. Yes, yes I know it’s a few hours late but I was curious. Does anyone here still think for one second that what the Angels gave up is close to what the author of RABii suggested the Yankees give up in Joba (even though he suxxx big time right now), Manban, ZMac, Nova, and Cervellli for Haren and Snyder. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

    I told you there was no way the Yankees would give up that much. Regardless if you think what the DBacks got back from the Angelsis even half as equivalent in terms of potential. Saunders is 29 years old and era is high high 4′s. Joba is 23 years old and his era is much higher but he is allot younger and is under contract. Saunders contract expires 2012. The two pitchers the DBacks received from the Angels are back end projected pitchers according to MLB. There was no prospect that amounted to MANBAN’s potential in this deal. Plus ZMAC and Nova may in fact be better and have more potential the two Angels pitchers. SO like I said why should we get robbed in the trade when you know not one team will offer that much potential and have to pay Haren’s complete contract? Well anyway I would have loved to obtain Haren but I guess like evry other team, the DBacks expected the Yankees to pay much more.

    • My reply:

      The point was never if you were wrong or right, or if JMK was wrong or right. The point was, you were being a dick in how you expressed your objections to JMK’s ideas.

      If you would have simply disagreed without resorting to theatrics, people would have discussed your disagreements rationally and nobody would have made fun of you.

  29. rab is loco esse says:

    Hey tommy. I never called anyone a dick. Did I? My theatrics made quite a few laugh and if you didn’t know it was in good fun than you need to take your eyes away from monitor and go outside and breathe the fresh bronx air. As far as calling me a dick behind your computer. Well I find it amusing and you are not only a joke but you need to take yourself less serious. Lol

  30. So was there any Dawson outrage today? I just reviewed his career numbers on BR. An .806 OPS and a 119 OPS+ doesn’t scream HOF to me. He only had one .900+ OPS season and was only at .850 or better four times. His .352 wOBA is good, but not spectacular.

    • Kevin in Delectable Princeton says:

      I didn’t see much Dawson outrage. Looking at his numbers, his power was very good, which was why he was so “feared” (that’s pretty much the only thing people talk about when they say why he’s a hall of famer), but his OBP is crap. It’s downright terrible. Wilson Betemit has a higher career OBP than he does. But he won an MVP and lots of Gold Gloves so he’s a hall of famer. I’m outraged. :P

    • DJH says:

      Tim Raines was a better OF then Dawson but I think people already got the complaints out of their respective systems the day the HOF said who was chosen.

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