Jul
24

Stark: Yanks ‘never close’ on Haren

By

The Dan Haren Saga’s long night’s journey into day continues as Jayson Stark files a missive on ESPN. He says the Yanks and the D-backs were, according to his sources, “never close” to a trade tonight despite rumors to the contrary. The sticking point, it seems, is Joba Chamberlain.

The two teams did swap names Friday, the source said. But the Yankees rejected a Diamondbacks proposal that would have sent Joba Chamberlain, highly regarded pitching prospect Ivan Nova and two other prospects to Arizona for Haren.

The Yankees, instead, have proposed an entirely prospect-based deal, which Arizona rejected. Diamondbacks president Derrick Hall told reporters in Phoenix that other teams had made offers of “at least equal value” to what the Yankees proposed.

Another sticking point between the two teams, the source said, is how much of the $33 million remaining on Haren’s contract the Diamondbacks are willing to pay. Arizona’s initial proposal would have required the Yankees to assume Haren’s entire contract. The Yankees, and other clubs the Diamondbacks have spoken with, want the quality of the players in the deal to be dependent on how much of Haren’s money Arizona is willing to pay.

Earlier in the evening, Arizona team president and CEO Derrick Hall went on the record and echoed Stark’s sources. The Yanks, he said, are not leading the pack. “We are not close on a deal with the Yankees, and there are some other teams involved that have deals of at least equal value out there. I would not categorize the Yankees as a front-runner,” he said.

In terms of Stark’s information, we could debate whether or not Ivan nova is truly “highly regarded” until the cows come home, but if the Yanks didn’t want to trade Joba and Nova plus lesser prospects for Haren, I have to question the wisdom of rejecting such a deal. The Yanks have pigeonholed Joba into the bullpen where he has great peripherals but so-so results. He’s three years into a Major League career and will be arbitration-eligible after this season.

Haren, on the other hand, would immediately become the team’s second best pitcher, and he’s signed to a below-market contract through 2012 with a reasonable team option for 2013. My bet is that, with the Yanks way they seem intent on using Joba, Dan Haren will outperform Joba over the next three seasons. With both players set for free agency after 2013, that calculation should be a large part of the equation.

Our recap of the Yanks’ 7-1 victory over the hapless Kansas City Royals will be published shortly.

  • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com/ bexarama

    Odds this is because Stark is trying to get Haren on the Phillies…….. (I’m not really kidding here, either.)

    • Pat D

      I thought he was still trying to get Oswalt to the Phillies.

      Yee gods! He’s trying to pit the Astros and Diamondbacks against each other!!!

  • Pat D

    And I just posted the link on the first story.

  • Carlosologist

    /cancels order for Haren jersey
    //cries

  • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

    So Joba and some money is the reason the Yankees wouldn’t do the trade. Alright. A little confused, but okay.

    • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

      According to Stark. That’s just one person with “sources.” That’s the latest info though.

      • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

        Yeah, I’m sure we will have more information to go off of tomorrow.

        Granted, by then the Yankees will have pulled another blockbuster that we can’t even think of right now.

        /Cash is the ninja

      • Rob Has no Innings Limit

        Should we really listen to anything ESPN reports anymore? There are so many better (real) sources in other places. ESPN has proven lately they’re about the page hits, advertising dollars and boards traffic than actual news.

        see: Decision, The

        • Rob Has no Innings Limit

          *more about

          Grammar fail. This is probably a question for the techies of RAB but any possibility of an edit button on our own replies?

        • Pat D

          I only listen to Olney and Kurkjian and read them, Crasnick, Neyer and Law when it comes to baseball.

          Fuck Stark. As soon as he called Dave Winfield the most overrated RF in history, I was done with him.

          • Bernard

            Maybe it’s because Stark has the 2nd lowest WAR by any member of the 3000 hit club by over 6 wins that he’d come to that conclusion. Seems a pretty decent basis for an argument like that…

  • Carlosologist

    I wonder if the talks are dead after this or will the Yanks and Arizona try and negotiate something else.

    • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

      I’d imagine they’re still talking. I’d be pretty pissed if they missed out on Cliff Lee reportedly because of Eduardo Nunez and then missed on Dan Haren reportedly because of Joba Chamberlain. That’s overvaluing your own guys.

      • Pat D

        Uh oh, I’m sure that’s going to illicit a few responses from some people.

        • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

          Well, I did use the word “reportedly” twice. We have to take that with a grain of salt because we’re trusting other people’s anonymously sourced reporting.

          • Pat D

            Yea, but I know of a few people who post on this site who never seem to like the idea of trading any prospects, so we shall see.

            • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

              Yeah that’s true. I’m obsessed with prospects, but I’m objective (for the most part) about trading them for certain players.

              • Pat D

                You weren’t who I am specifically thinking of, but I admire your willingness to consider things.

            • http://www.retire21.org Mike R.- Retire 21

              Prospect huggers.

              • AndrewYF

                They had a deal in place for Lee, giving up incredible value (and stupidly, IMO). Then the Mariners said “no, we want this guy too” after all that was left to do was dot the i’s. It doesn’t really matter who the guy was, it was that the Mariners were clearly not negotiating in good faith.

                When we’re all watching a 21-year old Montero hit bombs all over the field, while catching Cliff Lee, I think we’ll all look back on this non-deal in the same light as the Santana non-deal.

                Remember the reports that they let Jeff Marquez stand in the way of Santana, and how people were pissed off about that? People needed to look at the big picture of how stupid it would be to trade the top pitching prospect in baseball just to pay a declining pitcher $130 million. Same goes with trading a top-10 hitting prospect (and arguably the best bat in the minors) for half a year of a guy who’s guaranteed to hit free agency anyway. Frankly, this would have been a STUPIDER move than trading for Santana, who was certain to sign an extension with the team that traded for him.

      • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

        Agreed.

      • Carlosologist

        I wanted Joba to be the fifth starter after ST. If the Yanks can acquire an in-his-prime pitcher signed to a below market deal for Joba and other pieces you do that deal in a cocaine heartbeat.

        • Pat D

          Cocaine is a helluva drug.

          • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

            I wonder how you know that? Got something you want to talk about?

            • Pat D

              /Chappelle’d

      • http://lh4.ggpht.com/_NPaCuwJ_TTk/TDt7MhQWeGI/AAAAAAAAAOo/6QT7gfN6SKA/prospecthuggers.jpg ROBTEN

        I’d be pretty pissed if they missed out on Cliff Lee reportedly because of Eduardo Nunez and then missed on Dan Haren reportedly because of Joba Chamberlain. That’s overvaluing your own guys.

        1. This could be post-trade positioning on the Yankees’ part, but I thought the reports were that when the Mariners started to hesitate on Adams and then asked for Núñez that the Yankees started to feel like they were being used by the Mariners and were not willing to continue to play a game, especially when they felt like Lee was a luxury, not a necessity.

        2. From statements out of spring training, Cashman also has seemed that he’s still somewhat of a believer in Joba-as-starter. This could explain his hesitancy over pulling the trigger on the deal. However, I fully agree that if Joba remains a reliever going forward and this was the sticking point in the deal then it will be as bad a move as trying to trade Montero for a rental of Lee.

        3. In response to Pat D, I think most people here are not opposed to trading prospects, just the idea of trading a prospect of Montero’s level for a rental of Lee. But, there have been a few irrational people around lately, so you may only be talking about them. However, I just wanted to mark this again, regardless, as there seemed to me that some were trying to start a meme that if you were not in favor of the Montero-Lee deal then you are against ever trading prospects. The “ProspectHuggers” club is not opposed to trading prospects, in short, just nonsensical trades of prospects.

        • Pat D

          There are a few people who I’ve felt are irrational in their prospect love. They’re called prospects for a reason, after all, and I’m a believer in the “There’s No Such Thing As A Pitching Prospect” philosophy, personally.

          I thought that the Montero/Lee deal would have been worth it just because the people I read/listen to who seem to know things say he won’t stay a catcher. So to me, trading a future perennial All Star DH for one of the 4 or 5 best pitchers going was worth it, rental or not.

          I also wasn’t someone trying to start a meme about “prospecct huggers.” That’s pretty petty, in my view.

      • Captain Jack

        I find it hard to believe that Chamberlain is the sticking point…I mean the organization has shown negative faith lately. I can’t believe that he’d prevent the Yankees from getting Dan Haren…although allegedly Mike Dunn prevented the Yankees from getting Curtis Granderson, so we shall see.

      • steve (different one)

        with all due respect, i have to say that i hate this line of reasoning. the Yankees didn’t miss out on Cliff Lee b/c of Eduardo Nunez. They missed out b/c of Jesus Montero, Adam Warren, AND Eduardo Nunez.

        If the Mariners were willing to take Nunez instead of Montero, Cashman would have carried him to Seattle on his back

        At some point, doesn’t the package HAVE to exceed fair value? by this logic, surely you wouldn’t let Brackman hold up a trade for Lee, right? so why no throw him in? ditto for Corban Joseph.

        by this logic we can always look at the last piece discuss and call it the sticking point.

        the proposed package was ALREADY an overpay (but one you can kindof justify). adding Nunez was just bending over a barrell.

        You are acting like Jesus Montero wasn’t already in the deal.

    • http://ballcraft.blogspot.com Zanath

      Well actually, it was Ken Rosenthal who first reported that, via Fox Sports. So assuming this deal is indeed dead, that’s who you blame.

      • http://ballcraft.blogspot.com Zanath

        whoops, that was supposed to be in response to JobaWockeeZ

  • YankeeFan

    Joba/Nova, two other prospects PLUS possibly taking on the entire contract is a ludicrous asking price for a player that has underperformed this season and for an organization that wants to get rid of that contract.

    • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

      He’s got a FIP of 3.92 and an xFIP of 3.39. He’s striking out a batter an inning and has a high ERA because of home runs — in Arizona, right-handers give up home runs — and a .340 BABIP, which is high. He’d be just fine, and I’d happily take on his contract. You can’t get that value on the free agent market for such a price.

      • YankeeFan

        Since being acquired by the D’Backs:

        34HRs given up in 302.2IP at Home.
        35HRs given up in 283.2IP Away.

        He will probably be just fine, his career numbers before this season prove that BUT he has a contract that the team obviously does not want to keep and he has underperformed this season. Right now, IMO, they are asking too much especially considering the Yankees will be selling extremely low on Joba and I’m sure many of these teams are chopping at their bits seeing the Yankees willing to sell low on him (If it was true) considering he has been one of the unluckiest pitchers this season in all of baseball.

        • http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

          It’s funny how you say that Joba is “one of the unluckiest pitchers” this season while claiming that Haren is “underperforming.” That’s putting different spins on the same issue.

          If Joba is unlucky, then so is Haren. If Haren is underperforming, then so is Joba.

          • mikebk

            same with this selling low on joba when you could easily argue that it would be buying low on haren.

            • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

              I’m glad there are intelligent people in this world. I would go insane if I was the only one that thought this.

            • YankeeFan

              Giving up a ML ready pitcher in Joba + Nova + 2 other prospects + taking on the entire contract is buying low on Haren? Please explain.

          • YankeeFan

            Fair enough. I will acknowledge that correction that both have been unlucky.

            However, I still stand by the point that giving up what they wanted, 4 players (Joba/Nova + 2 prospects) + his entire contract possibly is way too much for an org. that WANTS to get rid of his contract.

            • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

              Nova is probably a No.4 starter.

              Joba is probably at best, a great reliever for the Yankees down the road, since I have no trust that the Yankees will convert him back into a starter. And Joba becoming a great reliever isn’t a given.

              The other two prospects are supposed to be worse than these guys.

              Haren is an All-Star calibur pitcher with a below market contract, that can expand possibly until 2013.

              So a number 4 starter and a possibly “great reliever” are too much to give up for Dan Haren?

              What do you suppose would be equal trade value?

              • YankeeFan

                If we’re going to go on probably’s and possibly’s then let’s say Nova becomes a number 4 starter and with the uptick in velocity and has shown great ability for a 23 year old in AAA sans some erratic control. If he goes to an NL team, he can probably be a tweener between a #3/#4 and he can be very useful in Arizona as he induces the ground ball.

                As for Joba, we still do not know what his future becomes but if he becomes a great reliever for the Yankees, great you do need a couple of solid relievers that you can rely on in the present and future. I am a Joba as a starter guy so I’ve been disappointed but the same probability is that he can go to Arizona and they turn him back into a starter IF they believe he is that. Nobody really knows but them.

                Then you have two other prospects that you nor I have no idea who they are as no names were mentioned. Who cares if they’re suppose to be worse, if they have ability, they have ability, no?

                Plus add in you forgot to add the fact that they want the team to eat Haren’s entire contract.

                Yes that is too much.

                • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

                  You didn’t answer the question. What do you think would be equal trade value?

                  Because apparently getting a very good starting pitcher isn’t worth what I said.

                  • YankeeFan

                    If they want Joba included, Yankees don’t need to pay that entire contract.

                    If they want to save money and have the Yankees pay that entire contract, then Joba is not included and you take on lesser prospects centered around Nova.

                    You can’t have it both ways where you’re getting both demands of players and contract especially a team that would upgrade most certainly with Haren but it is not a dire need.

                    • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

                      Nova is at best a 8-10 prospect in the Yankees organization. Then you would assume the other players are non-top 10 prospects.

                      There isn’t even a top 100 prospect in there. Haren isn’t worth even one top 100 prospect because of his contract? I just don’t understand that at all.

                • Captain Jack

                  Nova’s ceiling with the Yankees is a better Sergio Mitre…he’ll never ever have a long term role in the rotation, ever. Joba Chamberlain? Shit if the organization was even half way convinced that he might someday be a fixture in the Yankee rotation, they wouldn’t have given Hughes the five spot out of s/t. Given that he hasn’t shown that explosive stuff as often as would be necessary to inspire confidence again I’d say that he doesn’t have much of a future in Pinstripes anyways.

                  Look the Yankees need to value non-elite prospects as what they would contribute to the team…do you think they value David Adams and Corban Joesph as everyday ML second basemen? If not, why on earth would they value Nova as a 4 starter…if he’s even that. I would gladly do Joba, Nova, Noesi, and ZMac for Haren and Snyder…shit I’d even Jerry Dipoto an evening with my little sister if that’s what it took to seal the deal. The only reason Cashman should hold up on Joba or Nova is if he has them in a deal for another player.

            • YankeeFan

              According to Cot’s, Haren’s contract is 12.75 for ’11 and ’12 then a 15.5 club option in ’13. If those numbers are accurate and their highest starting pitchers (active) are accurate, he will be paid as a top 15-20 pitcher in the Majors (I understand some pitchers are in for a big payday). Are his numbers worth top 20? IMO no. He’s a solid pitcher. He comes back to the AL and he’s a 200+ inning guy, 3.70-4.1/2 ERA. Is the contract great by Yankees standards? Sure but not a whole lot of teams would want to eat that contract which is why it is unreasonable to ask for 4 guys + asking the team to eat the contract.

              • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

                If Haren was declared a free agent this off season, you do realize he would be making a lot more money, right?

                Also, there are plenty of pitchers that are young and haven’t received a big payday yet. But if you put a guy like Tommy Hanson out on the free agent market, he will get paid a lot of money.

                You’re logic is very flawed. Just because pitchers around the league are getting paid a certain amount, doesn’t mean they would get paid the same amount if they were free agents. They would get paid a lot more if they were a 2-3 starter, let alone a number 1 starter.

                • YankeeFan

                  So you’re assuming each guy is a FA? And my logic is flawed? Obviously they would get paid more on the open market, that’s just how it works, you go to the highest bidder in most instances, especially in MLB. Can you tell me how many pitchers, or players whatever you want, have signed a FA contract and you thought they deserved every penny?

                  So the Yankees should be penalized that he signed a market value deal early on? His team right now doesn’t even want to pay that so now they want to sell his contract plus demanding 4 other guys for him.

                  • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

                    Okay, but you were saying Haren is not a “top 15-20 pitcher, but he’s being paid like one.”

                    We were talking about Haren having a below market deal. Which would be correct. He is being paid less than what he would be worth on the free agent market, thus increasing his value.

                    I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I think that trade is absolutely worth it. And I’m sure plenty of others feel the same way. Haren would instantly upgrade the rotation this year and in the future. Joba/Nova and other lesser prospects (non top 10) would be worth it. All of those guys combined will probably not be just as valuable as Haren over the next 3 years.

                    And assuming the Yankees offer arbitration to Haren in 2012/2013, the Yankees would get two draft picks because he would likely be looking for a multi year deal. Of course, I’m assuming he pitches well the next three years, that could be completely off track.

                  • MattG

                    I don’t think the issue is that Arizona doesn’t want to pay–the issue is that there are several teams that would be happy to pay that contract. Arizona does not need to be motivated by their lack of resources if their trading partner views the contract favorably. The money owed to Haren is a plus in the deal, not a minus.

      • RollingWave

        of course, if we go by this logic, then trading away Mr. Chamberlain seems rather ironic.

    • Beamish

      That.

      I’d be happy to see Joba go for Haren – but taking on all the salary while being paid top price in talent is an unbalanced deal.

  • http://www.thechuckknoblog.com/ JobaWockeeZ

    Damn Twitter making everyone go and say the Yankees are frontrunners only to find out they were never close. And probably they will hold no accountability for this.

    • Pat D

      Wait, you expect people to be accountable for what they write on Twitter?

      Wow, if only that could be the truth.

      • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com/ bexarama

        Heard this: …

        • Pat D

          There is a reason I don’t have a Twitter account.

          Or Facebook.

          Or MySpace.

          Or any of that “social networking” shit.

          • YankeesJunkie

            No friends :(

            JK

            • Pat D

              Touché.

              I actually don’t like their concepts which are essentially, “Look at me! Look at me! Look at me!” I’m also a big fan of the joke that if you Twitter that you’re doing something, well then you’re not actually doing that thing. You’re Twittering (Twitting?) about it.

              Also, I didn’t enjoy high school and don’t want people I haven’t seen in 10+ years “finding” me and pretending that we were best friends. I’ve closed that chapter of my life and don’t feel like reliving it. Bad enough I still have nightmares about the place.

          • Steve O.

            Back in my day, internet was known as the inside of swimming trunks.

            • Pete

              heh. “trunks”

  • JSquared

    Traded proposals makes us “Never Close”… Yankees now know what D-Backs what from them… sounds at least a little “Close” to me.

    • JSquared

      want from the Yankees*

  • Michael Kay but not THE

    granted I don’t know what is really being debated in the respective camps, in fine example Cliff Lee being all but taping YES Promos at 3 PM according to ESPN and a Ranger by 5 PM, but it is stuff like this that makes me picture two snotty kids trying in vain to fleece one another in a swap of childish possessions for any MLB deal.

    • Pat D

      Indeed. This is what the Internet and 24 hour cable news channels have created: The “First!” Mentality.

      It doesn’t matter if you end up getting something totally wrong, but you’ve got to be the first person to report it.

      • Michael Kay but not THE

        oh absolutely, I’ll never forget Bill Simmons crying when he didn’t receive a “breaking news” credit for some Celtics move.

        • Pat D

          Hmm. Doesn’t seem like something he’d care about. I guess I’ve misjudged him or he had a beef with whoever did report it. If it was Ric Bucher, I’m pretty sure Simmons doesn’t care for him.

          • Michael Kay but not THE

            I was pretty sure I read it on deadspin a couple years back, I tried to find it for you but of course they have the worst search feature a highly trafficked blog could possibly have.

  • http://ballcraft.blogspot.com Zanath

    I would like to see what other “sources” are saying. So far Stark is really the only one reporting this is really dead. I know there is that quote by Hall, but I don’t necessarily take that too seriously.

  • YankeesJunkie

    I would be sort of shocked if the Yankees got Haren for Joba, Nova, plus two prospects. So what if the Yankees have to take on the contract, he is underpaid and one the better pitchers in baseball. For the next three years he is making $41 million which is a good deal for a guy who has not had a WAR below 4 since 2005. His xFIP in Arizona has not topped 3.4. There is no reason that he would be a very good #2 pitcher for the next three years with two picks at the end of the contract because he will be looking for a multi year deal.

    • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

      This!

  • Josh

    If the Yankees could substitute Joba with a pitcher to the Dbacks’ liking such as Brackman, Warren, or maybe even David Phelps, I think the Dbacks’ would jump.

    Zach McAllister
    Phelps/Brackman/Warren
    Brandon Laird? (Really raising his stock)
    Colin Curtis/Some other pitcher

    could that get it done?

    • mikebk

      no phelps, no brackman, they already have laird in reynolds.

      Joba, Z-Mac, Noesi would be a heck of a deal for us.

      • Steve O.

        Laird isn’t even close to Reynolds.

      • Josh

        Why not Brackman? He’s 25 years old already and in Double A this season. He doesn’t seem to have much of a future with the big club…

        • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

          Joba is younger than Brackman and he’s more proven (even if he hasn’t pitched all that well this year.)

        • http://www.teamnerdrage.com dr mrs the yankee

          He’s 24 and in AA because he’s a college pitcher who underwent major surgery after being drafted…

        • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

          Also, Brackman has ace potential, so he can definitely have a future with the Yankees.

        • Rob Has no Innings Limit

          You do not, do not not not ever give up on 25 year olds with the arm and stuff (and stature on the mound) like Brackman. They’d be totally justified trading him for Haren because there are enough questions about Brackman’s checkered development, but they’d hardly be criticized for keeping him because of his true stratospheric upside. But you certainly don’t declare a 6’10″, 95 MPH fastball, hammer curve-throwing 25 year old pitcher a dead prospect. Besides, if he were, you’d think Arizona’s scouts would know that too.

        • Steve O.

          Brackman is more useful to the Yanks in that his value isn’t all that great(although the highest it’s been in a while), so it’d be best to keep him and see if he can reach his potential.

      • Rob Has no Innings Limit

        Whoa whoa whoa… let’s keep our heads on straight here. Laird may be going all beast mode on the Eastern League but you’re talking about comparing him to an established 40/20 guy who also plays above average defense at the 5. Is Laird’s ceiling even close to that?

        • Pat D

          All he does is hit home runs, strike out or walk. Why would I want a guy like that?

          /Ricciardi’d

          • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

            I remember this, haha. There’s a reason why he’s out of a job now.

            • Pat D

              What are you talking about, he’s on ESPN all the time!

              Oh, wait, that’s right, a job that means something.

              • Rob Has no Innings Limit

                /stevephillips’d

                • Pat D

                  I find it hilarious Francesa still talks to him every week. I don’t know why I still listen to Francesa. I guess it makes me feel good about myself to hear very stupid callers.

                  • Rob Has no Innings Limit

                    I grew up cringing through Mike & the Mad Dog just to get to Ion Eagle after them.

                    I don’t ever put myself through that agony anymore.

              • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

                I’m glad you understood that.

    • http://www.teamnerdrage.com dr mrs the yankee

      No.

      1) AZ wants pitching;
      2) Brackman/Phelps/Warren are in three separate classes and are not interchangeable.

    • Pete

      I don’t see that working. Brackman’s VERY expensive for a high-risk prospect, and he’s really the only guy they’d be getting with any real upside.

  • Billy

    If Cashman doesnt pull the trigger on the Joba+ for Haren its really stupid. You are trading and 8th inning guy and prospects who could be nothing for a top of the rotation still in his prime prospect. Doesnt make much sense to me.

    • Josh

      Maybe Cash and Co. don’t wanna look stupid trading Joba due to all they invested in him, what with the innings limits, short starts, Joba Rules and what not. I’m sure if Joba was traded that many would realize that Cashman gave up on him and realized that he failed in his maturation as a pitcher and would looked stupid because of all the restrictions.

      just my 2 cents, but i’m all for Haren.

      • Pat D

        Everyone pretty much already knows they’ve fucked Joba. While I still think he can be turned around, it does also seem that a lot of people are just waiting for that final nail to be hammered.

        • Billy

          So it’s not Joba’s fault that he is not performing for the past season and a half but the organizations? It’s not Joba’s fault that he throws 5 sliders in a row when he’s a head of the count but the organizations? People need to get off of Cashmans innings limit on Joba as an excuse for him sucking and just say that Joba has been terrible for the past season and a half that excuse is getting really old.

          • Pat D

            Never said that. I think it’s mostly mental with him, but I think they way they’ve jerked him around ever since 2007 has screwed with him mentally.

            Look, we can’t know this for sure, but being someone who has been treated for mental health, I can recognize when someone appears to have those types of issues. Joba has struck me as having that at times.

      • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

        So the Yankees wouldn’t trade Joba because they don’t want to look stupid for what they did with Joba?

        Not great logic at all. I’m pretty sure there are 300 better reasons than this.

      • Steve O.

        No, I think it had more to do with Cash wanting to give up only minor league guys, than look stupid because of Chamberlain.

  • http://www.puristbleedspinstripes.com Rebecca-Optimist Prime-Jesus & Maquinito FTW

    FWIW, perhaps wrongly, I trust Twitter and the scouts/writers there more than Stark/ESPN.

    • Steve O.

      No Olney or Law?

  • Andrew518

    I believe this is what people call a rumor mill but rumors half truths and lies is what the internet was invented for…right?

    • Pat D

      Al Gore is very unhappy with you. You get an F–.

      • Poopy Pants

        You know what happens where he gets mad…sexual assault. Watch out!

  • Josh

    Zach McAllister
    Wilkin De La Rosa? Good lefty, 11th on Minor League Ball’s Yankees top prospects for 2010.
    Ivan Nova
    Colin Curtis (he’s from Arizona right?)
    Mark Melancon as a possible throw in?

    Would the Yanks even consider trading Jose Ramirez for Haren in the package? What’s his ceiling? I think if you gave ZMac, Nova and Ramirez with either DLR, Curtis or Melancon AZ would jump.

    • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

      McAllister has had a bad year and is by no means a great starting pitcher. He’s probably a number 4 innings eater starter.

      Nova is probably a number 4 as well.

      Colin Curtis is an okay bench player at the MLB level. Maybe not even that.

      Melancon has the potential to be a good reliever.

      De La Rosa has been terrible. The only thing he has going for him is the fact that he’s a lefty. But he probably doesn’t have much value right now. Find a better site for prospect ratings because he’s not that good.

      All of that is no where near enough for Haren in my opinion. I don’t even think any of these guys are top 10 Yankee prospects. Maybe McAllister, but he’s been pretty bad this year. Maybe Nova.

  • YankeesJunkie

    I would hardly say trading Joba as the main part for Dan Haren is giving up on Joba. They gave up on Joba when they put him in the pen which is much earlier this year. It is hard to pass up a top 20 pitcher in his prime that is being paid below $15 million a year. His K/BB is close to five and the people that have lower xFIP than Haren are Hernandez, Weaver, Lincecum, Wainwright, Halladay, Johnson, and Liriano. Oh, and he is tied with Lester, that is elite company.

    • Rob Has no Innings Limit

      I mean, isn’t the bottom line basically that Haren is markedly better than A.J., would be cheaper, and is under contract for more prime years? That’s worth just about any young pitcher the Yanks have not named Hughes.

      • Pat D

        Your logic is hurting my brain. Now I have to start punching myself in the head!!

        /bad attempt at riling up other people and not really sure why I’m doing it’d

        • YankeesJunkie

          Only pitchers that had xFIP higher than Haren in 2009 for those that think 2010 is SSS. Answer is Vazquez, Lincecum, and Halladay. That is it.

          2008: Sabathia, Lee, and Lincecum. Also Haren had the highest K/BB of those pitchers and second to only Halladay in all of baseball.

          • Pat D

            I was being sarcastic. I’d do this trade. I still don’t think xFIP is the greatest tool, but, I still haven’t been able to get my head around all these newer stats.

        • Rob Has no Innings Limit

          Well, as long as you’re not being serious. My logic is flawless anyway. =P

  • V

    I’d be really surprised if a crappy Bobby Jenks wannabe (Joba) is the difference between acquiring Haren or not.

  • Andrew518

    Bottom line here is D Backs need to make deal far more than Yankees need Haren, To ask for Joba + prospects + most or all of the money is too much. Not saying that Haren isn’t desirable but I wouldn’t get pushed around by a team that needs to deal him. They may get good deal from a team more desperate for SP than Yankees, but in Cashman’s shoes, I’d hold firm. D-Back orginization in bad shape, major league club in last place. I attend D-Back’s AAA games on a semi-regular basis, they are bad, I mean really bad. Pitching, hitting, fielding across the board bad. Virtually no major league tallent at all. I don’t think the lower levels are in much better shape. I’d hold out and see what happens over the next few days.

    • MikeyKehd

      Rookie GM in over his head much?

  • MikeD

    I think the Yankees will get Haren. Reading the Arizona GM’s words, he didn’t say any team had put in a better offer than the Yankees. Simply that some other team(s) have equal offers. My guess is the deal gets done minus Joba.

  • M-Three

    If this is true and the trade is not happening than I am kind of glad. I like the fact that Cashmoney is showing some restraint here and not just dealing away young player for another top pitcher. Don’t get me wrong, Haren is a very good pitcher but I would rather keep our young pitchers and go get Cliff Lee this offseason than make this trade. I sometimes get a like embarassed with how everytime someone on the Yanks gets hurt we always want to fill the void with another star player. I live with Mitre pitching once every 5 days until Pettitte returns.

    The other reason I am glad this trade isn’t happening is because i am still a big fan of Joba. For as bad as he has been this year, I still have faith that Joba can someday tkae over for Mo and become a dominated closer in his own right. Also, I am high on the potent of Ivan Nova. I know he is not high on any off the big prospect lists but I think he could be a good pitcher for us. To me Nova is a guy that I can see as either a good middle to end of the rotation starter or a good late inning bullpen option. I think he will most likely be a reliever. That all good with me seeing how in his starts this year he has been able to jack back and throw 95-97 mph for strike when necessary. If this deal is really dead than I can definitely live with that.

  • Josh

    I agree. I’ve searched the web so far, and the only one (I’ve seen) to say that the talks were “never close” was Stark. I’d like to see what guys like Rosenthal and Olney know about this. But I agree that a deal will get done for Haren. I’m just wondering if the Yanks would, by taking Joba out, have to include more prospects to get the deal done? Say they take out Joba, maybe they have to include two more prospects to equal his value or if there is someone in the minor leagues of equal value? I’m just speculating here lol.

    • Josh

      If they have to give up more (quantity) prospects, then they better be getting back another player as well.

      • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

        Quality is better than Quantity my friend. If the world worked this way, no top prospects would ever be traded. They would just trade 2 good one’s instead of 1 great prospect.

  • phughesisgod

    For fuck sake Cashman, what in the world are you thinking? This is your chance to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Shore up the rotation(peace out Javy!) and actually get Mo some freaking save opps by getting rid of that inconsistent joke of a setup man. Please don’t fail epically again! you maybe admitting your fail but at least you wouldn’t have to admit a double fail by the time you finally realize Joba is nothing close to what he was and will never be that guy again.

    • Carlosologist

      Why would get rid of arguably the second best starter behind Sabathia?

      • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

        I’m not sure why they would get rid of anyone with Pettitte’s injury and Hughes’ innings limitations.

    • http://youcantpredictbaseball.wordpress.com/ bexarama

      Weren’t you the one just saying that we shouldn’t give up on Joba by trading him in the other thread…?

      • http://soxandpinstripes.net Angelo

        Irrational fans is irrational fans

    • Pat D

      Finally found someone you’re willing to trade, I see.

    • steve (different one)

      yes, Mariano has barely been able to get any saves. the Yankees never win.

  • Cecala

    If I was an anonymous source, I would not give my information to Stark.

  • VanHeimer

    So if the trade goes through that means CC, AJ, Haren, and Hughes are all locked up for at least the next three years. I wonder if this would affect if we still want or can sign Lee over the offseason. If we do sign Lee, we really can afford to trade our AAA. Whatever comes out of the minors is just depth at that point.

    • Captain Jack

      Two reasons why I still think they sign Cliff Lee at the end of the year even if they sign Haren:

      1.) That would be a beastly rotation.

      2.) You don’t offer Jesus Montero for a guy if you don’t plan on signing him at the end of the year regardless of what happens. Cashman clearly wants Cliff Lee, badly.

      3.) You need the leverage in case CC decides to opt out at the end of next year and he doesn’t completely rake the team over the coals a la Alex 2007.

      4.) AJ Burnett has a long history of being injury prone and hit hit a wall this year, insurance is needed incase he absolutely blows.

      5.) Cliff Lee is a fantastic pitcher.

      • Pete

        I love the idea of AJ Burnett being the 5th starter

        • Carlosologist

          Should the deal go through and we get the actual Dan Haren, AJ will likely be the fifth starter coming out of ST next season.

          2011 Rotation: Believe in it

          CC
          Lee
          Haren
          Hughes
          AJ

    • Poopy Pants

      But when is CC opting out?

  • ConcernedFan

    Save Joba!

  • Reggie C.

    The D’Backs president going public and stating that there are other teams making proposals of “at least equal value” is an attempt to bait Cashman to up the offer.

    I’m not sure why Cashman would haggle over the remaining 33 million owed as Haren’s record of superlative health, relative youth (29), and consistent command of his superior stuff should mean that Haren’s new team will continue to see top-of-the-line returns.

    From what’s being reported, there’s no “Rangers-like offer” out there at the moment. Including Joba in the deal might very well seal the deal before a rival coughs up a more proven ML pitcher. I say include Joba in the deal with TWO prospects, take all of Haren’s contract, and make your strongest offer.

    • Reggie C.

      With Burnett making 16.5 million a season, but taking a step back from last season in Ks/9 and WHIP, its time for Cashman to admit that Burnett is not a reliable complement to CC Sabathia going forward.

      I thought Cashman would wait until the off-season to address the disparity between CC and everyone else by signing Cliff Lee. If Haren however can be acquired without giving up Montero and Hughes and you can cap the damage at 3 or 4 pitchers if you eat Haren’s contract … then Cashman is insane if he doesnt execute here?

  • Pete

    My guess is that both sides were cool with a Joba/Nova/2 lesser prospects (maybe Warren and CoJo?), but the Yanks balked at eating the whole contract, not necessarily because it wouldn’t be a fair package, but because while other teams may be able/willing to match that talent package, there probably aren’t any who would match that package AND eat the entirety of his contract.

    Remember, the Yanks have to figure in a probably Cliff Lee deal, and probably want to be able to nab Crawford, or at least push his price tag up, if nobody wants to pay him top dollar. Money saved on a Dan Haren deal could become very useful for the Yanks.

    Either that or the Yanks still consider Joba to be a legitimate SP prospect. You could call it overvaluing, but I dunno if I would say that.

    • Brien Jackson

      Between the rest of this season, the next 2 years, and his buyout, Haren is only guaranteed about $32 million. What team with available cash would balk at that?

      • Pete

        Better question is, what team has the available cash AND an available prospect package to match the Yanks’, PLUS enough of a need to justify that trade? It’s basically the Yankees and the Phillies (though I think the Phils are more likely to land him, because they are less likely to land Cliff Lee in the offseason, therefore making their need greater)

        • Brien Jackson

          What does that have to do with the ease of picking up Haren’s contract?

          • Pete

            it has to do with being efficient; if the yanks don’t think anybody else out there is going to do it, why should they? They’re just calling the D-Backs’ bluff

  • MattG

    I am always against selling low on a player. Always. Prior to 2009, Joba was going to be a 3.39 xFIP pitcher, at a fraction of Haren’s salary. It’s been nothing but failures since then.

    His peripherals are excellent, and his velocity has been inching up. He’s probably on the verge of a 12 game scoreless streak, which would change everyone’s opinion of him. But even if he is, he is still a head case, and his chances of starting may be gone with his curve and change-up.

    This is a risky deal. What’s funny is that although the Yankees are getting the only “sure thing” in the deal, I feel like they are assuming more than their share of the risk.

  • bonestock94

    Noooooooooooooooooo

    I’m 10x more upset about this than losing out on Lee. Does Nova even have a real chance of sticking on this team? Dammit dammit dammit.

  • http://fmylife.com Bryan

    YES! There is a god. Joba staying in the Bronx.

    • Reggie C.

      To pitch the 7th and when going well teh 8th! Yay!

  • Josh

    Talks are apparantly not dead according to MLBTradeRumors and the Yankees still want to swing a deal for Haren. Don’t worry, he’ll be here shortly.

    • http://ballcraft.blogspot.com Zanath

      I’m not sure if they were ever dead. I think the way Stark wrote his piece made it sound like that. But Stark is pretty much garbage. So yeah.

      Though keep in mind it says they want to swing a deal, but won’t do it at all costs.

  • Imabeeimabeeimaimaimabeejkimawasp

    i think that the yanks would trade joba if the dbacks ate most of harens salary. seems like money could be holding up this whole thing.

  • Carlosologist

    I honestly think the Yanks will send Joba/Nova/??? if Arizona eats, say 2M off the remaining salary for this season.

  • Simon

    I dont understand why this deal doesn’t get done already? Yeah, the Yanks don’t want to eat that whole contract thats understandable, so throw in another B or c type prospect and eat a little more than half of it. Harens getting paid below market value for a couple of years. Cashman should lock it up already and send Joba to Arizona. If Joba goes to Arizona I will physically hug and kiss every member on RAB!

    • steve (different one)

      i don’t understand why the rumors that may or may not have any basis in reality haven’t amounted in a trade to my liking already!!!

      • Simon

        Exactly!

  • http://ballcraft.blogspot.com Zanath

    Latest news from Jon Heyman: http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyma.....9421284378

    Says Yanks are willing to give up Nova, Mcallister, and two other prospects, but don’t want to give up Joba or eat the money. Says they are still talking.

    • http://ballcraft.blogspot.com Zanath

      Uh…now he says Yanks would take on the money but they have balked on taking Qualls and Snyder as well. Confusing stuff.

      • Carlosologist

        Jon Heyman: not necessarily a reliable source.

        • http://ballcraft.blogspot.com Zanath

          This is true. But just trying to get some updates so I figured I’d post it.

  • bonestock94

    AJ, CC, Haren, Huuuughes, and maybe Pettitte…yea I don’t care if we get Lee. The rotation is fully addressed. If Pettitte leaves get a #5 you can sign for a year or two.

    • Pete

      Nah, Lee is the #1 priority for the pitching staff. Pettitte, AJ, and Hughes will all be semi-question marks next season, and Haren is excellent, but not an ace. Lee gives the team enough leverage to keep CC’s camp from manhandling them after 2011, which in and of itself may be enough to keep CC from opting out in the first place.

      • Brien Jackson

        What leverage does CC have now? Considering how much the Yankees outbid everyone else by in signing him, is it really that likely he’d be able to get much more by opting out anyway? Plus, committing another big contract to a 32 year old starting pitcher doesn’t exactly give the team much in the way of margin for error.

        • http://ballcraft.blogspot.com Zanath

          I really can’t see CC opting out. I think that was put in on the chance he didn’t like NY, and he seems to like it. And like you said, I don’t think anybody is going to give CC more money than we already gave him.

        • Pete

          see: a-rod, 2007

          • http://ballcraft.blogspot.com Zanath

            I think there were a few things going on with that. Money, certainly, but I don’t think A-Rod was enjoying being in NY. Obviously, he found out that nobody else was willing to throw the amount of money he wanted at him. I never got the sense that CC hates it here. I always had the sense, until recently anyway, that Alex didn’t like playing here, with all the criticism he got.

      • bonestock94

        I don’t think he’s a number 1 priority if we’d already have one of the top rotations and line-ups in the game. I think we’re a little spoiled, no team needs two aces.

        • Rob NY

          We need 2 aces now for the seasons where “Wang was not an Ace!”

          Balance out the universe.

  • karlkole

    Speaking of trades, one of the players that the Seattle Mariners got back from the Texas Rangers in the recent Cliff Lee deal, pitcher Josh Leuke, raped an unconscious woman in 2008.

    Leuke, who was charged with rape & sodomy, spent 40 days in jail before pleading no contest to the lesser charge of “unlawful imprisonment.” Pleading no contest carries the same legal weight as pleading guilty.

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....tion%3Drss

    • http://ballcraft.blogspot.com Zanath

      Fantastic deal for the Mariners, obviously.

    • steve (different one)

      the mariners are the 6th best org at trading for convicts!

    • Pete

      not that that isn’t horrifying, but is anybody else bothered by how liberally the word “rape” is used? As horrific as what Leuke did was, could the psychological damage done to the girl possibly have been as severe as it would have been were she conscious?

      I mean I think Leuke should get the same exact punishment and should be treated no better for it, but I bet a lot of rape victims wish they’d been unconscious during the incident.

      I dunno. Horrible, horrible stuff. Horrible.

      (unrelated note: they still charge people with sodomy? how are gay dudes supposed to have sex if sodomy is illegal? or is it just a qualification for rape? why am I even talking about this? ughh)

      • Brien Jackson

        Well no, it doesn’t really bother me because, well, it’s still rape!

      • bonestock94

        Uh no, definitely not bothered by that.

  • jesse

    Joba, Nova, McAllister,someone else FOR Haren + Kennedy. Kennedy can be in BP this year and next year rotation could be CC, Haren, Hughes, Burnett, Kennedy.

  • mustang

    Heymnan “#yankees would pay the $33 mil left on haren, but they have balked at taking chad qualls, chris snyder, too.
    about 1 hour ago via web”

    I think this is more of a sticking point then the actually package. The D backs are trying to unload and take the Yankees for a ride once they realize that no one will do a package+ 33 mli + qualls +/or snyder they will get the deal done. And if they find a sucker then go for them.

    • mustang

      good for them

  • http://www.retire21.org Mike R.- Retire 21

    If the Yankees send Joba for Haren, maybe they can complete the trifecta by trading Hughes for Upton and RAB can sell the Big 3 t-shirts in Arizona.

    • mustang

      LMAO….. Remember in 2008 when the so-called ” Big 3 ” was going to anchor the Yankees rotation for the next 10 years. That’s why they are called prospects.

  • Josh

    MLBTradeRumors says that the Dbacks are looking to acquire a closer, hence the Joba request. Are there any other closers in our farm we could trade? Albaladejo, Robertson (could he close?), Melancon, Romulo Sanchez, Venditte? Would the Dbacks bite at that?

    • http://ballcraft.blogspot.com Zanath

      I’m not sure how good Robertson would be at closing. Albaladejo has been doing a good job closing at AAA but that was just this year. Then again, Joba has never closed either. However, I would think his stuff is more attractive to closing than Albaladejo’s.