Open Thread: Baffled


Pastadiving... (AP Photo/Bill Kostroun)

You probably heard by now, but Derek Jeter‘s agent Casey Close is “baffled” by how the Yankees are negotiating with his client. “Derek’s significance to the team is much more than just stats,” said Close, who is certainly right. There’s undeniably a marketing and off-the-field aspect of Derek Jeter that the team has to consider when offering him a contract, and you know what? They did when they proposed three years and $45M. If Close wants to go out and shop that offer around the league, the Yanks should tell him good luck. Jeter has basically no leverage here, no other team will come close to that kind of money so all he has going for him is the team’s fear of bad PR, which I suspect isn’t nearly as great as we think. I understand that Close’s job is to get as much money for his client as possible, but come on man. Baffled?

Anyway, there’s my mini-rant for the night. The late NFL game has the Giants at the Eagles. If Eli can’t do what Vick did last week, they should trade him for Brett Far-vra. Talk about whatever, enjoy.

Categories : Open Thread


  1. I got a Droid. And I love it thus far. Best purchase since my PS3.

  2. Teh Comp Pick says:

    Ahhh first open thread of the day…surprised there weren’t threads for the earlier Foosball games. That Jets game was really something, anyway I hope the Yanks stand firm in their offer, as Mike explained, there’s really no reason to up it.

    • MikeD says:

      I think the Yankees will up their offer, even though they don’t have to. They have a number they’ll accept, so they put the first offer on the table knowing they’re going to move higher. I just hope they hold firm on the years.

    • We killed the football open threads because few people had been taking advantage of them over the last few weeks, and we wanted to keep the content Yankee-centric. If there’s enough of a demand, we can figure out a way to bring them back, but, for example, one of last week’s drew 5 comments and few site visitors.

  3. IE says:

    Close’s statement about Jeter’s significance being about “much more than just stats” is the equivalent of asking about a prospective date and being told that he/she has a “great personality.”

  4. Baffled:

    My thoughts on the Jets game.

  5. Slappy White says:

    I couldnt agree more. When I read Mr. Close’s comments this morning, I was also “baffled”. He seems to be the only person involved in this negotiation that is making baffling statements. I think the Yankees , to this point, have handled this “touchy” situation perfectly

  6. Bryan L says:

    Patriots beat colts in crazy fashion. That’s how we do.

  7. deadrody says:

    Well, any threat of “bad PR” for the Yankees is being diminished by bad PR for Jeter with his agent deciding it would be a good idea to negotiate through the press.

    Bad idea.

    • MikeD says:

      In fairness, the Yankees already started the “negotiating in the press” over the past week. Nothing major in a negative way, but there have been clear positioning statements that didn’t need to be said.

  8. Jeter at this point is the weakest bat in that lineup and the worst defender in the field when Posada is not at DH.

    All sentiment aside, Nunez at short until they can find a better option. WAR would be about equivalent. Yanks will still draw 4 million.

    Jeter has at this point ‘no edge’ if they really want to play hardball.

  9. UWS says:

    Casey “at the bat” Close can suck an egg.

    New England Justin Biebers winning make me sad.

  10. JM says:

    I’m a Jets fan and all, but every good thing they do is surrounded by 3 or 4 bad plays but they still get these lucky wins and such. I’m not complaining, but luck only gets so far.

    • JM says:

      Don’t get me wrong, though. They’re a great football team but they have pulled a things from thin air, even though the past 3 games shouldn’t have even been close.

  11. JerseyDutch says:

    Dear Mr. Close,

    It’s called a business negotiation. Please submit your counter proposal or shop your client to any team willing to pay him $15 million+ for his services. ::chortle:: Hope this helps.

    Your friend,

  12. yankees1717 says:

    how about hisashi iwakuma asking for “zito-like” money. is he out of his mind?

    i’m glad they stopped negotiating with him. i would have just told him to take a hike immediately.

  13. SamVa says:

    I think everyone on here can agree we love Jeter, but at what point does he realize that he, just like everyone else, has to play for the contract he deserves. 3/45 is a great contract for a mid-late 30′s SS. If we get Lee he ends with with probably 1-3 more rings… I don’t see what he is complaining about honestly. Baffled is a strong word good sir.

  14. Plank says:

    I am shocked – SHOCKED that a player’s agent would use hyperbole when discussing the value of their client.

  15. The Ancient Mariner says:

    I think Jeter ultimately signs for between 3/45 and 3/60, Casey Close is gasping at the straws at this point.

    • Plank says:

      Agreed, but those are extremely different contracts.

      • The Ancient Mariner says:

        5M a year, which is quite a bit, but at least it’s sticking to three years. At this point I’d rather do like a 3/60 than a 4/70 or something.

        • Plank says:

          Only 6 players made 20M last year in baseball including Jeter’s last contract. I don’t think anyone would claim that Jeter is anywhere close to the top 6 players in the game.

          • The Ancient Mariner says:

            While I agree with your point, I disagree with your reasoning. Free agents are paid differently, it’s not a straight comparison. CC Sabathia is no where near the best pitcher in baseball, yet no one argues that he’s overpaid.

            • bexarama says:

              That. Mariano Rivera is ridiculously overpaid, $15M a year is silly for a reliever. But no one complains about that, and no one would complain about it if he got a 2/$30M deal this offseason.

              • The Ancient Mariner says:

                I don’t think so there. Mariano Rivera is the exception to just about every rule you apply to a closer, he’s the reason why other closers are overrated. I dunno about you guys but I DEFINITELY like to watch Mo whenever I get the chance. You want to savor the memories of the greatest. He’s like…beyond Jeter in terms of the beloved legend. He’s the only player that wears 42, and he’s the only closer that can reasonably be considered part of a team’s “core.”

                • JGS says:

                  he’s the reason why other closers are overrated. I dunno about you guys but I DEFINITELY like to watch Mo whenever I get the chance. You want to savor the memories of the greatest. He’s like…beyond Jeter in terms of the beloved legend

                  I 100% agree with all of this.

                  Even so, paying $15M for a guy who throws less than 5% of the innings (and who hasn’t thrown as much as 80 innings in a season since 2001) is still overpaying.

                  • ZZ says:

                    But what about the significance of those innings (including postseason)?

                    • Bulldozer says:

                      How many times did Mo help the team establish a lead in the postseason?

                    • ZZ says:

                      How many games did Mo close out that other relievers would have blown?

                    • JGS says:

                      Those innings are high-stress, but you also have to set a baseline. Since 1997, Mo has converted 90% of his saves. (save percentage is useless for non-full-time closers because otherwise you never get saves but can still blow them). That’s pretty awesome, right?

                      This year, the top 14 in the AL in saves all came from different teams, which makes things very convenient. Those 14–we’ll call them “regular closers”–converted…88.6% of their save opportunities (Mo was at 86.8% this year)

                      Signing a guy off the FA market with closing experience probably gets you to most of Mo.

                      In the postseason obviously his contributions are more valuable, but worth $15M per season? That’s a matter of opinion. I say probably not.

                    • Bulldozer says:

                      JGS dropping the knowledge!!!

                    • ZZ says:

                      But how much better is Mo than the other high paid relievers?

                      At some point we have to consider market value, because the Yankees are not going to go below a certain quality in their closer.

                    • The Ancient Mariner says:

                      “Since 1997, Mo has converted 90% of his saves.”

                      “Those 14–we’ll call them “regular closers”–converted…88.6% of their save opportunities ”

                      So one guy has done it for 13 years straight, whereas most teams can find a guy to get it done once year or so. What makes Mariano who he is is because he is the guy that can do it year in year out. How many other relievers have had five year stretches as good as Rivera’s 13 year stretch?

                    • Bulldozer says:

                      Doesn’t that “doing it for over so many years argument” also apply to Jeter? Who knows. Maybe if they use that Mo money to sign Lee and Crawford they could have Sidney Ponson closing games and it wouldn’t matter.

                    • JGS says:

                      Very few, but they do exist. Joakim Soria has done nothing but dominate since he came up. Joe Nathan, Valverde had a nice run, even Jenks and Papelbon were excellent until this year.

                      It’s quite possible to get 80% of Mo for far less than 80% of Mo’s price.

                      ZZ–I replied to you here. Sorry about the reply fail.

                    • JGS says:

                      aaand I forgot to close the tag. DFA me.

                      my reply is right below this thread.

                  • JGS says:

                    Market value is a little tricky, because most of those guys were still pre-FA. To whit:

                    Soriano: 7.5M (arb3)
                    Soria: 3M, but he signed a below market long term deal
                    Gregg: 2.75M (FA deal)
                    Papelbon: 9.35M (arb2)
                    Jenks: 7.5 (arb2)
                    Valverde: 7M (FA deal)
                    Fuentes: 9M (FA deal)

                    I’d say Valverde and Fuentes’ deals probably set the market, especially Valverde’s. Also, K-rod made 11.5M this year. I figure market value for an elite closer is probably 9-10M per year.

                • bexarama says:

                  I agree with all of this. Mariano Rivera is still overpaid; that doesn’t mean he’s a waste of money in any way, shape, or form.

                  • The Ancient Mariner says:

                    Are you suggesting that overpaying someone isn’t a waste of money?

                    • bexarama says:

                      Yeah. And I know that makes absolutely no sense. Just – I think it’s ludicrous to pay a reliever, even the GOAT, that much money. Remember, Mo was pretty meh in 2007, his last FA year, and people were balking over his contract. I think NoMaas called him “The Panamanian asshole” or something like that.

                      But this is the Yankees we’re talking about and I think that contract is probably worth it for the Yankees. A team that’s not in contention, and that’s not expecting to be in contention, spending big money on a reliever is a waste of money. For the Yankees, that’s just an overpay.

                      Does that make sense?

                    • Bulldozer says:

                      Then what’s your stance on overpaying Jeter?

                    • bexarama says:

                      It’s more complicated than Mo, because Mo still performed at an elite level this year. Jeter obviously didn’t, even if he didn’t hurt the team, which I’ve seen people claiming and is really stupid.

                      That said, part of the advantages of being the Yankees is that you can overpay players and not have it hurt you too much. I care much more about the years than the money with Jeter, frankly. If he gets 3/$60M, I’ll be fine with that. And if he somehow performs at 2009 levels, or heck, some other good year that wasn’t quite 2009, for those three years, I wouldn’t complain.

                    • Bulldozer says:

                      Ok. It’s the same thing for me ESPECIALLY because Mo performed at an elite level. He was still less valuable than Jeter even though Jeter was down and Mo was elite. Mo can’t get any better. With Jeter it’s possible.

                  • Reggie C. says:

                    Nice point.

                    Mo’s shown he can still close out games with an ease that belies his age. Dude is 40 yrs old, but still a top 3 relief pitcher in the AL. You gotta keep paying Mo. There are no alternatives out there aside from Rafael Soriano or maybe Scott Downs, but even then, we’re rolling the dice.

              • Bulldozer says:

                Holy smokes! Someone finally said what I have been saying! Mo is probably going to get a 2/32M deal! And no one would say boo if it meant Jeter walking even if it meant that the team would be WORSE than letting Mo walk!

                • ZZ says:

                  If I had to pick one player to resign it would be Mo.

                  I also disagree with bex that he is overpaid. He may be slightly but that goes along with the territory of being the greatest of all time. His salary is just about right in line with his salary.

                  • ZZ says:

                    correction: right in like with his market value.

                    • Bulldozer says:

                      The NYY were 18 out of 30 teams in terms of blown saves. Mo might be great, but what’s his value if he can’t pitch more than 70-80 innings anymore?

                      I repeat, the Yanks were League average in Blown Saves this year. Mo can’t save them all.

                    • Bulldozer says:

                      P.S. I am not arguing market value. I am arguing value, two seperate things.

                    • ZZ says:

                      Saves as a statistic is just a modern day creation with limited meaning. Blown saves are just a byproduct of that.

                      I believe Mo, due to the nature of this team, which is being in the postseason basically every year is more valuable than Jeter.

                    • bexarama says:

                      Blown saves pretty frequently happen before the 9th inning. That’s silly to pin on Mo.

                    • Bulldozer says:

                      So your argument is not on value, it’s based on value only in the postseason? That’s not what I was arguing at all.

                    • Bulldozer says:

                      I am not pinning blown saves on Mo, I am pointing out how silly it is argue on value for a player that plays 3% of the time versus a player that plays 90%+ of the time.

                      That is Mo is reliant on other players including crappy middle relievers to look good.

                    • bexarama says:

                      Gotcha. In that case, we don’t disagree too much. Not that I really think we should play super hardball with Mo.

                  • bexarama says:

                    There’s a difference between overpaid and being a waste of money in any way, IMO. Mo is the former. He is decidedly not the latter.

                  • ZZ says:

                    No, just the postseason is part of his value.

                    I have discussed on here many times that WAR does not capture the value of a reliever to the New York Yankees particular situation, mainly because of them being in the playoffs every year.

                    • Bulldozer says:

                      I hate to get all KLaw on you but I am hearing, “fWAR doesn’t justify my point of view, therefore it’s flawed in that respect.”

                    • ZZ says:

                      I think WAR is flawed for a lot more reasons that that, but I don’t want to get into that discussion. ;)

                      I have always maintained relievers are significantly underrated and undervalued on a team like the Yankees even when the only WAR I knew of was one with a bunch of guns and stuff.

                    • Bulldozer says:

                      That’s cool. I would argue that Yanks don’t even believe that since they have stopped trying to sign decent relievers and have mainly tried to homegrow them or sign retreads.

          • Bulldozer says:

            Is Tex a top 6 player?

            • Plank says:

              Last year the following player got 20M or more.

              Johan Santana
              Miguel Cabrera.

              I think you could safely say only Sabathia and Cabrera could make a claim for top 6 players in the league and it would be a stretch to put them in.

              • Bulldozer says:

                Exaclty my point. Top 6 pay has nothing to do with top 6 pay. I would say only Miggy is a top 6 player.

                • Plank says:

                  Every one of those players was signed with the realistic hope they would be a top 6 player in the league with the possible exception of Tex. I think that is more relevant than which players are currently in the top 6.

                  • Bulldozer says:

                    That’s true. Although I think they all were paid that based on availability/scarcity than anything else. Also, they all got long deals.

        • Teh Comp Pick says:

          I’d rather do 4/50 than either of those, If Jeter wants a 4th year, I’d actually think about letting him have it while sacrificing some of the AAV from the current offer.

          • The Ancient Mariner says:

            No shit, and I would have rather fucked Audrina Patridge than any of the drunken whores I had to choose from last night. That option wasn’t on the table, and I had to choose from the options infront of me. 4/50 isn’t a realistic option.


    Casey Close = Clown birgade

  17. Scout says:

    Possibly Close is “baffled” because of things the Yankees said to him and Jeter in the meeting between the two sides. It may have led Close to assume a longer or more lucrative offer would be forthcoming. Otherwise, his position makes no sense.

  18. TopChuckie says:

    To this point I really thought most of the “divide” between the Yanks and Jeter was just the press making much ado about nothing, but this was a bad move by Jeter’s agent and if I were Jeter I would get out there, do some damage control, call the Yanks, and get it settled quickly.

    Jeter can not win this one from a PR basis. Any demands he makes can only be considered anti-team because what he is doing is forcing the Yanks to assume all the risk when really no one has to assume any risk at all. If the Yanks are offering 3/$45M, with presumably some more dollars if he wants, and yet he wants more years, then he is saying he wants security that the Yanks will have to play him at short and pay him even if he sucks. If he really believes he will be a capable major league baseball player three years from now, the Yanks will pay him again, there is no doubt about that. For as long as he can perform the Yankees are going to pay him. All his demands mean is he wants to make sure he gets paid even if he can’t perform, and that sucks.

    • The Ancient Mariner says:

      Pretty much all the media types that didn’t grow up near power lines realize that, regardless of status, Jeter isn’t a twenty million dollar player anymore. Sign a three year deal and leave the door open for some Reggie Jackson type easy money. I could definitely see him being an asset after he retires. The “Jeter HoF Day” or the race to 3K hits will sell quite a bit more seats and concessions and more people will watch to see Jeter get his 3000th hit than they would otherwise. I remember I went out of my way to catch all the games leading up to A-Rod’s 600th moreso than I usually would, and I have friends that went to more games just to try and catch it. Not to mention the impact he can have with the Yankees’ amateur market, imagine having two Hall of Famers in your living room telling you what the Yankees can do for you if you forgo college and sign with them…I’d have to imagine that’d be pretty convincing.

    • Kiersten says:

      That was put beautifully. Bravo.

  19. The Ancient Mariner says:

    I could care less about Jeter/Mo/Pettitte, the first two will definitely re-sign and Pettitte either signs or retires. If he retires they’ll trade for Floyd or Carpenter. I want to hear more about Cliff Muthafuckin Lee.

  20. larryf says:

    I am with the minority that we would be fine with Nunez (assuming Jeter’s second half is the future). Alot of payroll to pay for pitching that we desperately need. Tex/Cano/ARod is a pretty good offensive infield and our other four bats with Montero are excellent too. A little youth and range at short and more pitching will not hurt us. I am just saying this knowing that Jeter will be back anyway but if something crazy happens and he walks-we will be fine.

    • larryf says:

      Make that 5 bats with Sado/DH

    • vinny-b says:

      i feel the same.

      privately, i would prefer the Yankees let Jeter walk.

      that said, Mariano Rivera is a different story.

    • The Ancient Mariner says:

      Yeah, I think you’re the only one. Eduardo Nunez is a fringe starter at best, and I’d rather take my chances with a top 40 player of all time than a piece of shit AAA middle infielder.

      • bexarama says:

        Seriously. The “a little youth” thing made me laugh. Youth doesn’t necessarily = good. Montero next year = good! Nunez next year =/= good.

        • The Ancient Mariner says:

          I mean, don’t get me wrong. I think Nunez is a fine utility player, I just don’t think starting him everyday is a good idea. If there’s someone out there that thinks he’s an everyday player, well that’s trading time.

          • bexarama says:

            Yeah, Nunez > Pena. Which is saying… like… nothing.

          • vinny-b says:

            IMO, Jeter signed for an additional 3 more years is a worse idea.

            I would rather take my chances with Nunez for 1 year (and if needed find a different SS the following year)

            • The Ancient Mariner says:

              What other shortstops are there? There’s not even ten guys that are competent shortstops.


              And that’s about it…maybe Escobar, but that’s about it.

      • Accent Shallow says:

        Needs to be repeated.

        The odds of Jeter bouncing back has to be much greater than Nunez being a worthwhile starter.

  21. MikeD says:

    Casey Close somehow got the Phillies to sign a contract extension for Ryan Howard that won’t even kick in until 2012. The contract is for above-market value for a player who is already showing signs he’s passed his peak and is starting down the other side of the mountain.

    I am baffled by this contract.

    I must assume that Close has some hypnotic ability. Hal Steinbrenner should not agree to sit down in a face-to-face meeting and he should never stare into Close’s eyes…just to be safe!

  22. vinny-b says:

    the best action NYY can take? Exactly what Mike said. The Yankees need to tell Jeter and his agent they are welcome to shop the existing 3/45 offer.


  23. YankeesJunkie says:

    Jeter would not be having such a problem getting more than 3/45 if he went to the Adrian Beltre Contract Year Academy. Where a player learns how to put up years that are at least 3 WAR higher than any other non-contract year during the contract year.

  24. theyankeewarrior says:

    5 teams are interested in Willy Mo Pena.

    This offseason’s hot stove is ON FIYAHHH!!!!!!

    Can’t wait to hear what tomorrow’s news brings us.

  25. Dick says:

    I’m dismayed

  26. Mattchu12 says:

    Buddy of mine just sent me a link that Scott Kazmir might be available.;spln=1

    I’d rather look at Kazmir than a lot of the free agent options. I wonder what it’d cost to get him. He’d be a pretty interesting guy if either Andy retires or Lee stays in Texas.

    • FIPster Doofus says:

      I just threw up in my mouth a little.

    • The Ancient Mariner says:

      Scott Kazmir blows.

    • Gonzo says:

      I think Kazmir is toast physically. Jut my opinion though.

    • bexarama says:

      No way, I think he’s broken. That said, if Andy retires AND Lee stays in Texas I think I might go into full panic mode and start looking for anyone.

      • FIPster Doofus says:

        Gavin Floyd and/or Chris Carpenter to the rescue, hopefully.

        • bexarama says:

          Yeah, I’d much prefer them over broken Scott Kazmir.

        • Reggie C. says:

          I thought Chris Carpenter’s availability was a RAB invention? I havent seen anything written about Carpenter maybe hitting the trade market.

          I’d be ecstatic to see if the Cards would move Carpenter, but he’s locked in at $15 million for the next couple years. Not exactly team friendly, and maybe prohibitively so with the upcoming Pujols extension. Still, he’s 35, and i wouldn’t want to move Montero or Banuelos (or Brackman) for just a couple seasons of Carpenter.

          • JobaWockeeZ says:

            Minor nitpick where I too would not be willing to give up ManBan ro Montero…

            ut Brackman is a major lottery ticket. If a package around Brackman is all that’s needed I jump for it. With the surplus of pitching in the system they can afford it.

            • Reggie C. says:

              Rather give up betances who’s got the spottier health record, but i’ll admit a likely higher upside than Brackman. Betances misses bats at a ridiculous rate so he’s got major appeal.

              I wouldn’t mind putting a package of Betances plus a couple AA arms for Carpenter. Again though, Carpenter is strictly a 2-year stopgap (Fipster’s words), which i agree with. Can’t give up too much.

              • JobaWockeeZ says:

                Plus he’s younger so that’ll frive up value. I love Betances and Brackman but if a good starter lioek Carpenter is on the market I’ll gladly trade either one of those.

                Upside is crazy good but so is bust potential. But the pitching in the system is substantial that it wouldn’t hurt.

                If Brackman or Betances is traded you have either one of them, ManBan, Jose Ramirez, Hector Noesi, Graham Stoneburner, the BM duo and Rafael DePaula.

          • FIPster Doofus says:

            Carpenter’s availability is a RAB invention at the moment; in Friday’s podcast, though, Joe laid out some pretty good reasons why he might be available. Carp is only on a one-year, $15 million deal, so you never know. I’d take him as a last resort if all hell breaks loose with Lee and Pettitte, and I agree wth you – no way should the Yankees give up Montero or Banuelos for a 35-year-old stopgap.

            • Reggie C. says:

              I see the 2012 option is a club option. I’m not sure if Carpenter’s current contract gives him some say in a trade and could force the acquiring team to pick up the option. I could imagine that to be the case with a veteran pitcher.

    • ZZ says:

      Remember when the Rays were killed for trading him? Kay’s rants on the subject? Heh, funny times.

  27. baffle [?bæf?l]
    vb (tr)
    1. to perplex; bewilder; puzzle
    2. to frustrate (plans, efforts, etc.)
    3. (Engineering / Mechanical Engineering) to check, restrain, or regulate (the flow of a fluid or the emission of sound or light)
    4. (Engineering / Mechanical Engineering) to provide with a baffle
    5. Obsolete to cheat or trick
    n Also called baffle board baffle plate a plate or mechanical device designed to restrain or regulate the flow of a fluid, the emission of light or sound, or the distribution of sound, esp in a loudspeaker or microphone

    I’m pretty sure Casey Close meant “baffle” in the mechanical sense.

  28. Jake H says:

    Jeter’s avg value on fangraph from 02 til now is 16.85 million. I think 15 million a year is more than far for a guy who won’t be able to stay at SS forever and will have to DH limiting his value.

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      If Jeter DHs he will likely give very minimal value tot he team outside of merchanidising and t3h captiness and stuff like that.

      Jeter’s bat was still top notch for a SS. Put that him DH and he’ll be one of the worst.

  29. cranky says:

    Casey Close is mis-playing his hand. This stuff just tarnishes Jeter’s image as a “team first” guy. He’d be better off telling everybody about exactly why Jeter had a bad 2010 and exactly why he’s going to come back in 2011, and beyond, as a .300+ hitter. (But he can’t do that, can he?)

    • larryf says:

      This. For all Jeter’s ability to play with nagging injuries over the years, can’t they come up with one more to explain the second half?

      Turmoil with Minka? Would she take the fall? Show her true love?

    • Accent Shallow says:

      Casey Close is mis-playing his hand. This stuff just tarnishes Jeter’s image as a “team first” guy

      Absolutely. I really don’t want to see this negotiation played out through the media — that’s a mistake on both Cashman’s and Close’s part.

  30. Casey ‘Close’ thinks the Yanks are way, way off.

    Ironic, no?

  31. UWS says:

    Can we please stop treating Vick like some kind of a goddamn national hero?


    • Tom Zig says:

      America sure does love to tear people down and build them back up again. It’s the same thing with Josh Hamilton.

      • UWS says:

        Yeah, the Hamilton thing annoys the hell out of me as well, but at least he (theoretically) didn’t hurt anyone except himself with his stupid decisions. Michael Vick committed an actual crime, and he was punished only because he got caught at it.

        Unrelated to the Vick/Hamilton thing, there is also an amazing double standard between baseball and football, whereby ARod/Bonds/Palmeiro/ etc have murdered baseball history, but for folks like Shawne Merriman, Michael Vick, that guy from TB Bucs who was arrested for DUI, everything is quickly forgiven and forgotten. WTF?

        /feelin’ ranty tonight

        • bexarama says:

          I have been talking about this ad nauseam for the last week. I think it’s why I just can’t warm up to football. A-Rod gets treated like the worst person in the world because he did steroids and is kinda awkward with the media. Michael Vick is basically treated like a hero. Football players that drive drunk are basically ignored. It annoys me, a lot.

          /double end rant

          • JobaWockeeZ says:

            What are you talking about? DUI’s aren’t treated lightly. Look at Braylon Edwards…oh wait.

          • UWS says:

            *high-fives bexy*

          • Reggie C. says:

            I swear Arod lied to a national CBS announcer over something kinda controversial … like to her face.

            • bexarama says:

              A-Rod lying to Katie Couric about doing steroids, while skeezy, isn’t exactly the equivalent of killing and torturing dogs or driving drunk.

              • Accent Shallow says:

                Well, steroids are a performance enhancing drug.

                Maybe he needs to enhance his performance in the realms of dog-killing and drunk driving.

          • Football has embraced the whole “outlaw” thing all the way back to the Raiders of the 1970s. The league can talk about cracking down with their conduct policy all they want, but they know their fan base (many of whom are neanderthals themselves) eat this shit up and like the bad behavior. If they really wanted to clean up the sport, they’d ban anyone convicted of a felony permanently. But (wink wink nod nod) the League really doesn’t give a shit.

            • ZZ says:

              The NFL is concerned with their image. Which basically means they are concerned with how the media perceives them. As long as the media keeps eating this shit up like Vick’s comeback they are going to cater to that.

              They do have a strict conduct policy. Very strict comparable to other sports. The problem is that these athletes in other sports just are not committing crimes at the rate of severity of NFL players. If they were they penalties would be much less than the NFL enforces.

              So the NFL can say look at our personal conduct policy relative to who we are compared to! (which is other leagues).

              Goddell has been a major improvement to those who preceded him, but he is very in tune with the “interests of the sport” which translates to how we are perceived publicly. Unfortunately, most fans just don’t care.

              Although, I know some of the attorneys who basically got Goddell to where he is today and while they are very happy lets just say they were absolutely disgusted by what Vick did and how he embarrassed the NFL.

              • bexarama says:

                Although, I know some of the attorneys who basically got Goddell to where he is today and while they are very happy lets just say they were absolutely disgusted by what Vick did and how he embarrassed the NFL.

                So in other words……. you know people?

                (Sorry, ZZ. Couldn’t resist.)

              • Accent Shallow says:

                lets just say they were absolutely disgusted by what Vick did and how he embarrassed the NFL.

                Somehow, I bet it’s more of the latter than the former.

                • ZZ says:

                  Depends on who you talk to to be honest. One of them literally cringes whenever Vick’s name is mentioned.

                  Goddell from what I understand is stone cold. Doesn’t let emotions get in the way of his decisions and I really think he thought it was possible this would happen with Vick. As much as it pains me to say it, it has been “good” for the NFL depending on how you define that term (to most good=money).

              • Protestations aside, I think their actions speak louder than their words. As they say in politics “look at what they do, not what they say.”

                One phone call and Vick isn’t in the league. No one’s saying Vick can’t earn a living, but the NFL doesn’t have to let him back in. Let him play in the CFL or Arena Football league. But they like the controversy, it gets people talking about their mediocre, salary-capped, watered down sport. I stopped watching the NFL years ago.

          • The Ancient Mariner says:

            Yeah, NFL players probably aren’t clean either, look at some of the players there? There’s no way that a 230 pound wide receiver can naturally out run a 200 pound track star, nor do I believe 250 pound line backers can naturally catch up to 215 pound running backs. I’m willing to bed 75% of the league is on roids.

          • The Ancient Mariner says:

            Furthermore, stop comparing Vick to A-Rod. Vick went to prison, no matter how much shit Alex Rodriguez or any baseball player has gotten…they didn’t get sent to prison. Mike Vick and Plaxico Burress both went to jail for things that most people don’t even get arrested for. In baseball Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens might go to jail and that’s about it.

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      Agreed. It may or may have been overblown with his court case but I think it’s overblown on how supposedly he’s a changed man. The media isn’t close to knowing who the real Vick is. Only people close to him are. As you said let’s stop with this national hero stuff.

      • FIPster Doofus says:

        I don’t think Vick’s a changed man at all. He’d probably be doing the same shit if he never got caught. I have no respect for Vick, nor do I wish him any success whatsoever.

    • Bulldozer says:

      Thank you for being rational. He is more on a pedestal now than if he ever did anything wrong! WTF!

    • Accent Shallow says:

      Mike Vick was crucified, which was positively ludicrous.


      • UWS says:

        It may have been a bit overblown, but that doesn’t make it OK to go this far to the opposite extreme. Also, it’s not like he committed a CRIME, is it….Oh.

        • Accent Shallow says:

          Look, dog-fighting is a disgusting blood sport.

          But he’s not some kind of monster — puppies are cute, so people get more worked up than they should. He was tried, convicted, served his time, it’s done.

          You want to rant about really shitty people in the NFL, talk about Ray Lewis, Leonard Little, etc.

          • UWS says:

            dog-fighting is a disgusting blood sport.

            But he’s not some kind of monster

            I don’t know, sounds pretty monstrous to me. Also, yes, compared to Ray Lewis et al, Vick’s transgressions are relatively minor. That doesn’t make it OK. And the fact that he served his time doesn’t mean he should now be subject of a cult of personality.

            • Accent Shallow says:

              I reserve monstrous for someone who actually harms other human beings.

              doesn’t mean he should now be subject of a cult of personality.

              Probably not, but unfortunately that’s how sports works — as long as you perform on the field, people don’t care what you do off it. It’s sad, but what can we do? Not that I’d buy a jersey — like the Dude, I hate the fucking Eagles, man.

          • Bulldozer says:

            How about ranting against all of them incuding Vick?

          • ZZ says:

            He was tried, convicted, served his time, it’s done.

            That depends on your view on the purpose of sending people to jail.

      • ZZ says:

        Yeah I know.

        Electrocuting dogs, then tossing them in a pool and enjoying watching them try to scrap their way out of the water or just bashing their heads in like some disposable melon.

        Also, basically creating virtually unstoppable killing machines who if they got out would create quite a problem.

        What were people thinking? Silly America.

  32. JobaWockeeZ says:

    A lot of baseball player annoucners suck. Smoltz, Tino, Morgan among others are really bad.

    But football players turned announcers are actually pretty good. Smarter than the analysts. This pre-game show is beyond stupid.

    • bexarama says:

      Funny, I actually thought Smoltz was pretty good when he was on MLBN with Costas. He wasn’t good in the playoffs, though. But yeah, baseball players who are announcers/analysts are generally terrible. There are some exceptions, like Kaat, Rizzuto, Cone, the guys on the Mets channel, but as a whole, ugh. I’m thinking of the guys on ESPN and MLBN who are ex-players and just.. most of them are barf. Coney I miss you :(

  33. Reggie C. says:

    Time to TUCK vick to bed tonight. Early and often.

  34. JobaWockeeZ says:

    Kevin Killdrive with his genious play calling but I think I can figure it out.

    Run, run, pass, kick.

  35. Good coverage on Maclin by Thomas there.

  36. JobaWockeeZ says:

    Vick finally playing against an elite D.

  37. Reggie C. says:

    Ugh. Bradshaw’s running not looking good. Eli can’t do it all himself… C’mon!

  38. Esteban says:

    So is Vick actually better now, are his receivers better, or is some combination of the two?

    • Not Tank the Frank says:

      I personally think this is the Vick we’ve always seen but he’s never had two receivers with the speed and playmaking abilities of Maclin and Jackson along with a versatile RB like McCoy.

  39. Bulldozer says:

    Anyone else want to offer Javy arb? Tell him that if he accepts, he is being traded to the Pittsburgh (eating money, of course) with the stipulation that he can’t be traded again?

  40. Not Tank the Frank says:

    Damn the Eagles receivers are WIDE open.

  41. We were discussing this over at TYU, so I wanted to pick it up here. Would the 2011 Yanks be better than the 2010 Yanks even if they don’t sign Lee? I say yes.

    -Aceves coming back healthy would stabilize the bullpen tremendously. I think he was a big element of what was missing on the 2010 team from the previous team. He kept the team in games and vultured a bunch of wins.

    -Montero could represent an offensive upgrade at Catcher

    -One or more of the Killer Bs could contribute either as starters or in the bullpen late in the year.

    -It won’t be too hard to upgrade your #5 starter considering what Vazquez gave you in 2010. Ivan Nova would probably do a much better job once he learns how to make better in-game adjustments.

    What do you think?

    • Accent Shallow says:

      Do Jeter and A-Rod bounce back?
      What about Teixeira?
      Does Burnett remember that he’s a credible big league pitcher?
      Does Hughes take another step forward?
      Can Ivan Nova make it through a lineup more than twice?

      Those are, IMHO, the big questions as to whether 2011 > 2010.

      • All good questions. But could Burnett be any worse? Tex doesn’t concern me, and Alex and Derek are likely to put up similar numbers to last year, with maybe some further decline.

        • Accent Shallow says:

          But could Burnett be any worse?

          Sure! Would I bet on it? No, but he’s always been mercurial.

          Alex and Derek are likely to put up similar numbers to last year, with maybe some further decline.

          See, this concerns me. I’d like to see both of them rebound to post OBPs of >.360 in 2011. .340 or under is not so good — you don’t pay these guys that kind of money for league average-ish OBPs.

    • bexarama says:

      - Frankly, a lot of it depends how Jeter, Tex, A-Rod, etc., perform in 2011. I’m expecting bouncebacks from all of them, but then again I am an optimist.

      - I really do not feel comfortable going into the season with a rotation of CC/Pettitte/AJ/Hughes/Nova though yeah, Nova ’11 would probably be at least the equivalent to Javy ’10. CC is great, Andy is great but I am so nervous about his ability to stay healthy now, and I don’t think you can depend on the last three right now.

      - Aceves coming back would be great, but the bullpen was very good in 2010 too (especially when the starting rotation kinda fell apart). I don’t recall it ever being a huge problem in the second half, honestly. Also, he’s coming back from injury and relievers not named Mariano Rivera are notoriously unpredictable.

      - If Montero can do in 2011 what Posada did in 2010 I will run around my room screaming in joy. Agreed, he’d probably be better than Cervelli (though I can see him actually having a lower OBP, .360 is a really nice OBP for your backup catcher… but he’d have a higher SLG).

      • The bullpen was stabilized by Wood, who gave them a (luck aside) reliable 8th inning option. He won’t be back, so I’d have to think the bullpen would be worse, but with Aceves I don’t.

    • Not Tank the Frank says:

      Yeah the Yanks will be better next year for a number of other reasons too. I’d like to expect some bounceback years from A-Rod, Jeter and most importantly from Teix.

      Anything from Montero, Aceves or the Killer Bs is a bonus.

      I think a number of guys from that group and from Phelps, Nova, Noesi could really help make the pen and back end of the rotation stronger. I especially like Noesi – a strike-thrower with four pitches and a fell for pitching – especially for short-term success.

    • The Ancient Mariner says:

      I’m pissed Kelly rebounded. The Casey Kelly hate here is getting pretty ridiculous, he’s a talented pitcher with plenty projection who got lit up in AA as a 19 year old. Quite a few people here kept faith in Brackman even though he was old, coming off TJ, and showed dogshit stuff and control…I don’t see what’s so bad about Casey Kelly still being liked by scouts. Granted Peter Gammons and writers who still vote for the CYA based on wins like him way too much, but I don’t think that’s the feeling in many front offices outside of Yawkey Way.

      • Accent Shallow says:

        It’s just he’s being hyped as The Next Big Thing, when he doesn’t have much going for him other than fastball command.

        • JobaWockeeZ says:

          He was being comapred to Strasburg and like Chapman. Never midn there’s like 10-15 pitching prospects in between them. I don’t hate Kelly. I hate all the hype surrounding him.

          If he was a Yankee he’d barely reach the top 100 prospect list.

          • The Ancient Mariner says:

            If he was a Yankee he’d barely reach the top 100 prospect list.

            Yeah, that’s just dumb.

            He was being comapred to Strasburg and like Chapman. Never midn there’s like 10-15 pitching prospects in between them. I don’t hate Kelly. I hate all the hype surrounding him.

            I don’t think anyone who actually knows anything about prospects put him in this list. That’s like talking shit about Daniel Nava because Peter Gammons lumped him in with Berkman, Utley, and Youkilis.

        • The Ancient Mariner says:

          Projectability, size, athleticism, breaking ball, etc…and who is hyping him as the next big thing? Last I checked he’s not cracking any top 25 over all lists.

  42. JobaWockeeZ says:

    While football players turned announcers are good EVERY announcer not a player sucks really bad.

    Why are good announcers hard to come by in like every sport?

  43. JobaWockeeZ says:

    This offensive playcalling is killing me.

  44. Accent Shallow says:

    I think we’re a bit spoiled, as Yankee fans — the team has consistently pursued high OBP players, guys who will take a walk. That’s one reason I’m not too enthused about Nunez, or replacing Jeter with either JJ Hardy or Juan Uribe — neither one is much of an OBP guy.

    This isn’t driven entirely by BB% (BB/PA): Jeter’s is 9.3%, Hardy is at 7.7%, and Uribe is at 6.2%.

    So while Jeter’s much better at taking a pitch than these guys (but not Frank Thomas-esque), he’s also a much better hitter for average — .314 for his career, whereas Hardy and Uribe are both down around .260.

    So while Jeter only managed a .340 OBP in 2010 due to his poor BA, Hardy and Uribe would be worse. Ugh.

    (Of course, they’d hopefully make up for some of that by playing better defense, but I refuse to believe that someone as fat as Juan Uribe is a plus defender)

  45. UWS says:

    Good grief.

  46. JobaWockeeZ says:

    Maybe in the draft they could get a RB who has hands.

  47. Jabeezus says:

    Jeter’s endorsements, commercials and lucrative contracts outside the Yanks happen because of who he is and what he represents (don’t see Alex being asked to hawk Fords).

    His “intangibles” get plenty paid off the field and away from baseball. His “face of the franchise” also puts money in Jeter’s pocket that the organization never sees.

    So give me a break. The Yanks should just sit pat (they won’t, but they should).

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      Agreed completely. Though I thik Cash is smart enough not to listen to Close.

      No one would even dream of giving Jeter 20 mil except the Yanks. Cash surely knows it.

  48. Ted Nelson says:

    “all he has going for him is the team’s fear of bad PR,”

    I suppose Close agrees, and that’s why he’s taking the battle to the media…

    • Accent Shallow says:

      Which is just going to make Jeter look bad.

      One of the things that I most admire about Cashman is his refusal to negotiate through the media, but apparently that’s not happening here.

      But Jeter’s agent crying about the Yankees not valuing him correctly is crazy, unless he’s offered two years at 4M per or something like that. It’s going to hurt Jeter’s image as a team player.

      • Ted Nelson says:

        Totally agree. Seems ridiculous to be crying about a $45 million contract offer… If I’m Jeter I definitely don’t ok that and I probably even fire the agent over it. Totally a PR blow to Jeter, IMO.

        Still, though, in terms of negotiating tactics I guess Close is on the same page as Mike that it’s his only leverage. He knows he can’t go to another team and get a credible serious offer for $20 mill per or 4 years or anything…

        • JobaWockeeZ says:

          PR blow to Jeter? I think you’re underestimating the general Yankee fan.

          Jeter is a god and should get an ten year 300 million dollar because he’s so good.

          • Ted Nelson says:

            Depends how the media wants to spin it really… Unemployment is still high and Jeter is crying and “insulted” over $45 mill??????????? He could live the rest of his life on that money never wanting for anything, not to mention the 1/4 bill he’s already banked. If that’s spun the right way and/or Jeter’s agent takes it too far… he could easily become a villain.

            • JobaWockeeZ says:

              That’s expecting a good portion of the fans have a rational viewpoint on this.

              Many of the ones I talk too not from RAB aren’t.

              • Ted Nelson says:

                Jeter has built a lot of goodwill and the Yankees don’t have the same ability as a small market team to say they can’t afford something. But at some point if Jeter overplays it he’s opening himself up to a PR hit. If it becomes public that he’s got no other offer near 3 years $45 mill… what does he do then? At that point the Yankees ARE “respecting” him by paying him a premium. If Jeter then reacts poorly he opens himself up to look selfish. There will still be a lot of fans on his side, but I think opinion will start to sway… If he takes less money to sign elsewhere, he has to lose a ton of Yankees fans there.

    • The Ancient Mariner says:

      Yeah, I mean that seems to be what Close is doing…try to make the Yankees look bad by making it look like they’re trying to stiff Derek. I don’t think it’s going to work on anyone who doesn’t listen to Mike Francessa.

      • Ted Nelson says:

        Yeah, hard to feel bad for a guy who has already earned a quarter billion and is looking at another 45 mill on the table… A little bit like Latrell Sprewell turning down like 3 years 24 mill because he “has to feed his kids” (and then ironically going bankrupt after he could never get a contract approaching that again).

        If someone in the media made a Wall Street reference comparing the money Jeter makes to the money in the financial industry… forget it in this political climate. Maybe not so much in NYC, but nationwide Jeter could quickly become a villain.

        • The Ancient Mariner says:

          Yeah, it’s a stupid play. He should push for 3/50, but that’s about it…ask for a lifetime employment deal and tell him that they’ll keep a room where he can take random whores too so Minka won’t find out.

    • You know what’s really bad PR?


      • Ted Nelson says:

        I don’t really understand your point… You can lose by overpaying Jeter, and you can also lose by losing Jeter and starting an inferior player.

  49. Tom Zig says:

    The Sox, for example, could give up Jacoby Ellsbury and/or Daniel Bard for Upton, but then have the flexibility to go all out for Carl Crawford.

    I assume Cafardo wasn’t saying that the Sox could get TJU for just Bard or Ellsbury………right?

    • The Ancient Mariner says:

      They might have to throw in Felix Dourbont or John Lackey.

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      A good set up guy and a overrated, injured and flat out not good outfielder for one of the best young players in the game?

      They say the Yankees are overhyped.

    • bexarama says:

      I heard ~rumorz~ that the supposed Red Sox offer for Upton involved the Sox telling the Diamondbacks to take two from Ellsbury, Buchholz, and Bard. lol

      And then somehow this turned into Ellsbury/Bard for Upton, and then there are a lot of Boston writers saying that is TOO MUCH. AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAH okay I’m done.

      • Not Tank the Frank says:

        I found it comical too. But then again they did get VMart for what amounts to Justin Masterson, who’s proved on many occassions now he can’t start in the bigs.

        • Bulldozer says:

          Wasn’t a crazy trade at the time.

          • Not Tank the Frank says:

            It wasn’t? Masterson was never more than a reliever…maybe a back-end starter. Hagadone is/was a reliever.

            • Bulldozer says:

              Does this sound like a crazy trade:

              • Not Tank the Frank says:

                First off I never called it “crazy,” but yes, I think it was prett one-sided and disagree with that article. Just my opinion.

                • Bulldozer says:

                  Not trying to argue here. Yes, I said “crazy trade.” I meant it in relation to the Bard/Ellsbury trade which is obviously crazy. However, your response, “It wasn’t?” I inferred that you implied that it was “crazy.” Either way, my point still stands.

                  My point still stands. There is a big difference in your comparison of that trade to the proposed TJU trade. Since the Martinez trade wasn’t “crazy” at the time, your comparison doesn’t work.

                  The V-Mart trade wasn’t close to lopsided at the time despite what your memory tells you.

              • The Ancient Mariner says:

                Yes, yes it does. Hagadone was a lottery ticket, Masterson was an innings eater at best, and the other player they got was a piece of shit…when you trade that for an all-star that’s a stupid trade.

        • JobaWockeeZ says:

          Well VMart is older and can’t play his position at all. But Justin Upton played at an elite level while playing plus defense at a really young age.

          And Kevin Towers ain’t no idiot either.

          • bexarama says:

            That. Plus wasn’t V-Mart gonna be a FA after the season, or he had a big option that needed to be picked up, followed by FA in 2010?

            Also, it makes me LOL that Masterson sucked or was totally meh against pretty much everyone else in 2010, but against the Red Sox, he threw 14 innings and allowed only 1 run, going 2-0 in two games. Heh.

    • Not Tank the Frank says:

      Yeah I’ve been reading that rumored package of players all week: Ellsbury, Bard… plus the likes of Doubront and Rizzo. What a complete crock of SHIT.

      I mean, what do Red Sox fans really think Ellsbury is worth??

      Like JobaWockeeZ said…overhyped is right. When your package STARTS with a reliever, you know you need to re-think your trade proposal.

      Doubront is a fringe starter/reliever with maybe mid-rotation upside because he’s left handed. Rizzo is basically Juan Miranda, who they just got, with more upside.

    • Bulldozer says:

      KLaw scoffed at a Bard, Kelly, Ellsbury deal. I doubt a deal of just Bard and Ellsbury would even get a response from ole KLaw.

      He laughed that the headliner for Upton was a reliever.

      • JobaWockeeZ says:

        But also proceeded to say Kelly wasn’t worth one year of Adrian Gonzalez.

        • Bulldozer says:

          That’s correct. KLaw values TJU more than AGonz. I don’t have a problem with that logic.

        • Steve H says:

          For the Sox he’s probably not, if he’s only there for a year. The Sox would almost assuredly resign Gonzalez, but if not, is the trade worth it? If they weren’t going to sign Gonzalez long time they could easily just keep Youk at 1B, resign Beltre, put Lowrie there, or find another 3B (or 1B) solution. In a vacuum, 1 year of Gonzalez might not be worth Kelly.

  50. JobaWockeeZ says:

    That NBC announcer from madden hates the Giants doesn’t he?

  51. T-Dubs says:

    I feel like there’s been a lot more people getting knocked the fuck out since the Commish made helmet to helmet hits a main issue.

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      Well maybe because since it’ an issue now that we look more closely into it.

      Or maybe it’s just the dirtbag Eagles being themselves in a division game.

      Or the likely answer in both.

  52. Ellis Hobbs got hit pretty damn hard. #footballisdangerousbusiness

    • JobaWockeeZ says:

      One of the few Eagles that don’t deserve such a fate. Though I won’t show sympathy if DeSean, Vick or Asante Samuel gets an injury like that.

    • The Ancient Mariner says:

      Ellis Hobbs is a cool guy. I hope he’s alright, he seems to be the prototypical nickel corner. Football’s version of Livan Hernandez, maybe.

  53. Kiersten says:

    I feel like a creeper being friends with Slade Heathcott on Facebook. But at the same time it’s kinda cool.

  54. yankees1717 says:

    the other day i read a bleacher report article that said johnny damon would sign with the yankees “because they lack a DH and damon would be scary in that lineup.” remind me to never read bleacher report ever again.

  55. Kevin G. says:

    How much would Derek Jeter get if he wasn’t Derek Jeter?

  56. Hah, if the Giants win, they pulled this one out of their asses.


  57. Not Tank the Frank says:

    Holy shit Bradshaw…

  58. UWS says:

    A question for the RABbies:

    Have you guys considered or will consider at some point in the future making a mobile-friendly version of the site?

  59. OldYanksFan says:

    Jeter knows the Yankees aren’t shopping for another SS.
    Therefore, he can stall negotiations by declining every offer.
    When the Yankees have had enough and go no higher, Jeter will then come back and say: “Jeez… you’re right… OK… I’ll take your last offer. Thanks.”

    I think the Yanks should offer:
    $15m, $13m, $12m and a 4th year option at $10m w/a $5m buyout.
    So it’s basically 3/$45m or (at the Yankees option) 4/$50m.
    Put it on the table.
    Jeter will so no.
    Time will pass.
    Jeter will finally say yes.
    What other options does he have?

    • mbonzo says:

      $5m buyout on a $10m deal? Holy crap that would be crazy.
      Jeter would never take 4/$50m when his agent is saying that 3/$45m is “baffling”.

  60. Not Tank the Frank says:

    Just hold on to the fucking football. Unbelievable.

  61. UWS says:

    I don’t get it though, why isn’t the play dead if the whistle has already blown?

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